I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 in a theater in Istanbul tonight.

[hel]

The theater was pretty much full. Most of the people in there were young, in their 20s. Most of them had some interest in
politics, obviously. And most of them were upper class, in Turkey's standards, of course. Some might have argued before the
war, over tea with their friends, that Turkey should join United States in invading Iraq, so that we might be getting the
spoils out of it. Some might even had illusions of it before the movie started. Some did hate America, some only resented what America did, some thought America was threatining to us with both its military power and pop culture. Most probably liked the movies and the music.

There is a ten-minute break during movies in Turkey. (We love our cigarettes, thank you) It's usually right in the middle of
the film, so all movies we watch are in two parts in our minds. Fahrenheit 9/11's break was right before Iraq war began.

So, at the first part; we laughed a lot, and marveled a lot. That goofy smirk of Mr. Bush. The stupidity that,
apparently, is worse than we ever thought. The other guys, most of us did not know: "So, is this that Wolfowitz guy, threating us with a coup?", "What's wrong with the face of Dick Cheney? Did he have a stroke or something?" Most of all, GW Bush himself was the
center of attention, undoubtly all in there wondering how such a guy got to be the president of America. Don't get me wrong,
we had our share of stupid politicians. We had one that came to power with a coup, a general who was responsible of executing
tens of young people, one of them aged 17 after the coup, and loved to paint silly pictures--he fashioned himself an artist.
And no one dared to tell him he sucked badly at it. We had -and in all probability, still have- crooks running-- and selling
the country. We are much too familiar with the concept of "Patriot Act"s, and our own people thinking such measures are
necessary and nothing will ever happen to themselves and screw the ones getting -already- screwed by it; they probably
deserved it anyway. It was quite an irony, I have to tell you, to see that the mighty America was becoming more and more like
Turkey, while Turkey is trying to be an America since forever. We felt more sympathy for you than you can imagine.

Then the second part started. That woman, crying to Allah to bring the houses of Americans down. Dead children thrown in a
truck like garbage. And American boys-- or children, more accurately, singing "burn motherfucker burn" while the world of
their fellow human beings was burning, with their children, wives, husbands inside it. The fear on the faces of women, when
those soldiers who "hated that country" came to take their loved ones away. And the same fear is there on the faces of the
soldiers. The mother of that soldier, crying and crying. Just like thousands of mothers crying over their sons in Iraq. They
all blended in one, for us watching in a movie theater in Istanbul: geographically and culturally closer to the Iraqis, our
life style and minds closer to the Americans. We came to the theater with different mindsets and prejudices, we left feeling
sorry for both sides.

I know that many Americans think that Fahrenheit 9/11 presented a bad image of America to the world, and shamed the country.
That's just not true. It shows that America is not Bush and company. It's people are not so different from all of us after
all. This movie made America more human in our eyes, even the ones who have been Anti-American with absolute certainty of
their convictions. I know that for you this movie has other meanings, but for us so used to sold politicians, human right
abuses and an unnecessary war in the name of the country, poverty and fear; it's not so unusual for us as it must have been
for you. So; the most important thing the movie told us was that America is not the president or the politics, or the bombs
and guns, the money and the corporations. I think that is a great and surprising change in image of America, for us; and it
will do a lot more good to win "hearts and minds" of the people around the world.

[jpgray]

1. Yes--many have called it a patriotic film for those reasons

Nice post, and welcome to DU. :toast:

[hel]

4. Thanks!

I've been around for a while actually, I just don't post much. Though I read, and learned quite a lot about American politics here. And impressed my friends with it while watching the movie, so thank you DU :)

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. thank youb

I intend to show that movie to my parents when they come visiting

they need to see it

[yardwork]

3. Thank you for this post!

Welcome to DU! I hope that you will post here often.

Your comments remind me of the students my family met in Mexico in 1971. At that time Mexico was controlled by a corrupt government that had massacred protesters, while America was engaged in an immoral and highly unpopular war. My parents met many Mexican students who represented the range of views you describe above - some hated America, some sympathized with us for having similar problems, some were surprised to meet Americans who felt as they did.

[Nite Owl]

5. Welcome to DU hel

Do you know how people will feel if he gets 'elected' or installed for a second term? Are others aware of the possibility of voting fraud and the state of our media or will people feel that the American public really does agree with these policies? This is something that I have been worried about, I feel like the world is for now giving Americans a pass because of problems with the election in '00 but if he gets in again it will at least look like we agree with them.

[hel]

11. Don't worry

I, for one, can see how the American people are being fooled with all the propaganda. These guys are very skilled at it.

I think you will see most Europeans have been where you are now. All had ultra right-wing governments in the past, not unlike yours. Our current government is very close to what you have, but without the power to change all the world, thank God. So, hang in there and just never get used to it.

[annabanana]

13. Welcome Hel

It is so nice for us to find out that we're not all being judged by the actions of our rogue government. Sadly they have control of much of the media here and many are still buying their line. We are working very hard to prevent the re-election of this morally bankrupt crew.

We thank all that is good and holy for the internet! It keeps us sane in crazy times.

(edited for typo)

[patdem]

6. Thanks for that from Istanbul. I still find the internet AMAZING

To hear a movie review from a part of the world I would have called 'remote' five years ago is truly thrilling to me. Americans live on an island with xenophobia as it national pasttime. I apprecaiate all I hear about people at a gut level as you have described.

Thanks!! :hug: :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

7. wonderful post hel. Here's a question for you....

What was the reaction when the one Marine said he wouldn't go back to Iraq if ordered because he couldn't personally justify killing other poor people?

I've always wanted to know what people watching F911 overseas thought of that scene.

[hel]

12. I felt proud of him,

As if he was my brother or friend. That was an unusual reaction for me, since I am a pretty much cynical person.

[Cha]

8. What a beautiful summary you wrote, hel!

It brought tears to my eyes remembering F9/11 again.

I saw it with my friend on the first day it came out back at the end of June.

I just saw the documentary, "Control Room" ..about the Al Jazeera coverage of the Iraqi Invasion. I highly recommend that, too.

Wednesday, we're going to see "Uncovered: The Whole Truth About The Iraqi War"
"This film takes viewers behind the walls fo the government as more than 20 CIA, Pentagon and foreign service experts discuss the war.
Among them are,former Ambassador Joe Wilson, anti-terrorism authority Rand Beers, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern and former CIA operative Robert Baer."

So you are Turkish, living in Turkey and writing on du? How Cool!

[carolinayellowdog]

32. I cried too

after 3 years of fearing the world would always and forever (the rest of my life anyhow) see * as the face of America, it is such a relief to know that others can see past his evil deeds and know that America IS NOT WHAT THIS UNELECTED IDIOT believes us to be.

[Eloriel]

9. Thanks so much for your perspective

Count me among the relieved to hear this. I too want the people of the world to know that not all of us are behind Bush, and not all of us are insane.

[Catshrink]

16. My thoughts exactly!

What a great story. Thanks so much for sharing, Hel.

[havocmom]

10. Thank you so much, hel. Your gift of perspective is gracious and we are

in your debt for enriching our understanding. I am sure many DUers will send link to your post far and wide. Have you considered making it a LTTE to some US newspapers? It would be a very good lesson for many of my fellow countrymen to read your impressions and observations.

Glad to have you with us at DU. We are stronger for your participation.
:toast:

Peace & prosperity to you and yours!
hm

[hel]

14. Oh thanks!

I'm not sure that newspapers would be interested in my writing. I had to share what I felt with someone, and I'm glad it's DU. This site is a very refreshing face of America for me.

[wryter2000]

15. Thank you so much!

Excellent analysis. I'm glad that's what you got from the movie. :yourock:

[proud patriot]

17. Thanks so much for this post

"one world one love let's get together and be alright"

:hug:

[DemExpat]

18. For this reason alone - showing the world there are other Americans....

Michael Moore is to me a hero and a great American!

Thanks for this post.

DemEx

[blm]

19. What a great post. Please submit it to many other forums and the media.

I'm nominating it for the DU front page.

[robbedvoter]

20. Wow! Thanks. That's the kind of insightful views that we need to get

from around the world. That's our strength and their weakness. GOP-ers may have the money and the government arm, but we have the world with us. We need to listen more and act accordingly.
Moore had done a lot for us. I remember after the Oscar speech - stories of Iraqis saying: "I know not all Americans are bad - saw Michael Moore on TV" This stuff is more powerful against terrorism than all Cheneys and Rummies and their permanent war.
You should send this to Michael Moore (at Michael Moore.com), he'd appreciate it.

[smirkymonkey]

21. Thanks for your post, Hel!

It is so refreshing to get a perspective from overseas. I wish there was even more of an international presence here on DU.

Please continue to post, we appreciate your valuable input! :hi:

[Beam Me Up]

22. We all have so much more in common than our leaders let us know.

They wouldn't want us to GET ORGANIZED around the world to kick their DESPOT ASSES off this planet, now would they?

Why does war happen? It isn't because we people hate each other or hate other peoples color or religion or "freedom" or customs. War happens because SOME PEOPLE (a very small minority) PROFIT FROM WAR. And because they've been manipulating the rest of us for thousands of years to believe that wars are not only necessary but inevitable. We are told we that humans are just that way.

I no longer believe the lies. I believe everyone everywhere are my brothers and sisters. There are just different people with different histories and different customs and beliefs. Those who want to rob us of our lives and our resources (that are meant for the benefit of all human kind, not just the few) make us think that our DIFFERENCES are what matter, not the things we hold in common as living, breathing human beings. They constantly focus our attention on THOSE DIFFERENCES and hardly ever on the things which unite us.

You can always tell who your real enemy is by the way he divides you from and makes you suspicious of your family and friends and compatriots.

Thank you for your post. Very helpful and insightful. We need more discussion between people from other nations here at DU.

[Misunderestimator]

23. Thank you, for that perspective!

"It shows that America is not Bush and company. It's people are not so different from all of us after all. This movie made America more human in our eyes, even the ones who have been Anti-American with absolute certainty of their convictions. "

Spot on... and wonderful post!

[Chili]

24. hel, no need to apologize for this line:

"Most of all, GW Bush himself was the center of attention, undoubtly all in there wondering how such a guy got to be the president of America."

We're still talking about that, pissed off, amazed, stunned.

But I'm thrilled and relieved to know that the rest of the world realizes that it's not the majority of Americans who back this administrations policies, even though we "elected" him (no, we didn't). Terrorists don't hate our "freedom" (what a jackass mantra), they hate our policies that effect their lives directly, every day. And if the concept that we're not all arrogant imperialists takes hold in the minds of those who hate America, then it goes a long way towards some future dialogue which might actually lead to peace.

[Disturbed]

25. Excellent.

Thank you. Yes, please send your post to all Newspapers that you can and post it on other boards and esp. Mike's site.

[Pallas180]

27. Thank you for writing so well, giving us hope that not all of the world

thinks we Americans are hateful greedy killers like George Bush

[grasswire]

28. thank you Hel

Please tell your friends and associates that there was a coup in America in 2000. We are living under occupation here. The same cabal of people who enacted this coup have a pattern of anti-Americanism and anti-democratic acts. In the 1930s, they nearly removed Franklin Roosevelt from power with a military coup. They are thought to be responsible for the assassinations of our leaders, and were behind the coup attempt against Bill Clinton.

Most Americans do not see that yet. Our corporate media and our elected leaders hide the truth. This is the reason for a good part of Bush's support. The American people have been betrayed by their journalists.

Good people around the world must stand with us. Take our message to your friends. We repudiate imperialism. We repudiate war crimes. We repudiate Bush and his henchmen.

Help us.

[cally]

29. Your post gives me hope

Maybe we can re-join the world community after the * junta. I hope most of the world understands that many of us do not support the * policies and are appalled at the hatred shown to the rest of the world. Thanks for the post.

BTW...Turkey is the one place I have considered moving to if I leave the US. The government is bad but the people are wonderful.

[Kimber Scott]

30. When the Internet first became common among common people I

predicted we had seen the last of war. Never again would politicians be able to lure us into fighting against people in distant lands because we would know they are not "them," we would know "they" are "we." Obviously, I could not forsee George Bush and the divisions that have befallen this country. I might have, had I been a political creature. I was not. Your post, however, gives me hope. Hope for a future in which the common people can reach each other at uncommon distances and stand together against the injustices reigned down upon us by those who reign.

Thank you.

[milkyway]

31. I just heard Michael Moore speak in NYC this afternoon. A European woman,

during questions, made the same point that you just did. She said that F 9/11 showed the world that the American people are not like our current government. She said that because we have a democracy people just assume that the goverment and the people are the same thing. F 9/11 humanized Americans for the rest of the world. Needless to say, Moore was appreciative of her comments.

BTW, welcome, and thanks for the great post.

[Eloriel]

41. That is so great to know from both Hel and you

Thanks.

[Habibi]

33. I'll add my thanks too,

and a request that you post more often!

[Swamp Rat]

34. Sagol hel

Çok sagolun

Hos geldiniz!:hi:

[hel]

48. Hey thanks!

Where did you learn Turkish, or is it just these words? Whichever's the case, a very nice gesture, thank you very much :)

[Swamp Rat]

50. Just those and a few other words.

As you said, it's just a small gesture with a lot of effort. My brother lived in Istanbul and Kaiseri (spelling?) for a few years; HE speaks Turkish very well. I'm better at Latin based languages but I'd love to learn Turkish, especially after falling in love with every beautiful Turkish girl I saw! I wish I was in Turkey right now! .. for more than one reason - we here in New Orleans may get hit by a devastating hurricane coming in a few days. So, there are two horrible dangers in my life now: a hurricane named Ivan and a stupid king named George.

Iyi geceler :boring:


Edit: Don't vote for Bush! He's an alien lizard!

[Joanne98]

35. Thankyou so much for that it's exactly the reaction I thought it was

having in other countries. I think that history will show that Michael Moore and the protestors will be the ones who win the hearts and minds of our enemies. people in other countries should feel sorry for us. the right-wingers in this country are making us miserable. the Christian fundies are almost as bad as the Taliban. Tell everyone in turkey to pray for the GOOD half of America. If we don't win this election the whole world could get attacked by these fools. Welcome to DU BTW

[Jacobin]

36. Very very powerful. Thank you so much for taking the time to

put your thoughts into words. Very interesting perspective and you are very generous in your treatment of our situation since the junta.

And, a word of thanks to your nation for making a massive public revolt against the attempts of the U.S. to bribe your government into participating in this tragedy.

Looking forward to more of your posts. It is so important for us to hear what those from your part of the world are hearing and thinking. The media in this country is completely owned by corporate interests who appear to think it proper to attempt to take over the world......the end of so many other countries in the past.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. thank you and Turkey for knowing the difference...and understanding

that we the true majority did NOT even vote for bush*...and we also grieve for the Iraqis and our soldiers

[Tsiyu]

38. Reply

:kick:

[hansolsen]

39. Thank you very much. Well said. I hope you are right. N/T

[robbedvoter]

43. Nice note of suspicion from Woodward's fan....

"I hope you are right" I wish you were as circumspect of Woody...

[hansolsen]

57. Just for the record, I am not a Woodward "fan". I was simply seeing an

opportunity for the campaign to be proactive rather than reactive. I think Kerry needs to state what he will do differently in Iraq, and needs to be more bold about that.

I outlined concrete ideas the campaign could use. If you disagree with those ideas, please attack them, not me.

And in saying "I hope you are right", in this thread, I meant to be supportive, not suspicious.

Peace.

[UTUSN]

40. Wow. Thanks. n/t

[kentuck]

42. Thank you very much for your enlightening post..

Some of your remarks were very good to hear.

[Zinfandel]

44. Wait until the DVD comes out---With all the"Special Interest" footage...

DEVASTATING!!!

In about three weeks.

[slinkerwink]

45. my grandfather's from turkey

and I was wondering what the conditions are like for women in Turkey.

[hel]

47. I have to say, it depends

On where you are living. I am living in Istanbul, and it's not different from anywhere in Europe. Same goes for other big cities. But there are places in Anatolia, especially southeastern regions, where girls are murdered by their families just because they were seen with a boy on the street. You can probably guess how they are treated throughout their lives. It makes my blood boil. Women's rights organizations are trying to educate people living in villages, but it's a long and frustrating process.

[Flammable Materials]

46. Michael Moore: Winning Hearts And Minds

It's just too bad that America's right-wing is so unwilling to think for themselves and judge the film on its own merit.

My own mother refuses to see the film, and yet she is CERTAIN that it's "anti-American" and that Michael Moore is a "traitor" and needs to be imprisoned for treason.

*sigh*

[nomatrix]

49. Thanks hel and welcome to DU

I emailed Michael Moore this link because I think it's important to let him know all the hard work and risks taken has been worth it on international peace keeping. Your post was very beautifully stated.

Thank you for letting us know how you feel about us. I am often surprised at how many different country are taking an interest in our politics and knowing to come here at DU. I wouldn't know where to look for another countrys political board. Please post again and update us.

[Old_Growth]

51. Great post!

Well said and a pleasure to read.
Your command of the English language is quite good too.

Uc Turkce kursu aldim.
Bircok Turkce biliyorum ama yanlis cumle yaziyorum cunku turkce klavye yok. Nerede Istanbul'da oturuyorsunuz? Ne is yapiyorsunuz?
Kokorec sever misiniz? Bleh! Kokorecten nefret ediyorum.
Buyuk depremi hatirlidim. Cok kotu bir zaman gecti. Bence Turk kadinlar cok guzel. Bir Van kedisi istiyorum. :-)

Sorry everybody. Just found an excuse to practice my Turkish. It's just small talk, everyday stuff. It's really nice seeing foreigners sharing the experience here. I don't post much myself but this one just pulled me right in.

[hel]

54. Your Turkish is really good

I know it is not an easy language to learn, I'm very impressed.

And kokorec is something you should eat without ever learning what part of a sheep's anatomy it relates to... Hard to swallow after you picture what you are eating, isn't it? :) (For those who are wondering, "kokorec" is made of intestines)

[Art_from_Ark]

52. I watched the movie in Japan, a few hours before you!

As for my impressions,

1) The film was shown on a Sunday afternoon. Most of the audience seemed to be young couples, although there were a few middle-aged couples there as well. I did not see anyone of high school age or younger though, apparently because of the reputation it had gotten from its American "R" rating, although admission was not restricted at that movie theater (My son had seen it with his friends).

2) There were 110 seats in the theater, and about 60% seemed to be filled. The admission price was about $16.

3) There was no audible reaction from the audience during the entire film, except for some chuckles when bu$h was making one of his famous gaffes. I don't know if the lack of reaction was due to the acoustics of the theater, which seems to have been built keep out most noise that was not coming from the sound system. It could also have been due to the Japanese trait of keeping emotions to oneself.

4) The movie was in English, with Japanese subtitles on the right side of the screen. The subtitles were far enough away as to be distracting for Japanese viewers who didn't have a good command of American English. For example, I don't think most of the viewers got the full impact of scenes like Britney's vapid pronouncement, while chewing gum, that we should just let the president (sic) like, call the shots.

5) Michael Moore should have cited the most egregious parts of the "Patriot" Act while driving around in the ice cream truck. I think what he was saying during that scene was lost on most of the Japanese viewers, since it was pretty much lost on an American political junkie like me.

6) It was very hard to gauge the impact the movie had on the audience after the show was over. No one was talking about it as we exited the theater.

[SmileyBoy]

53. Tessekur Ederim!!!

I'm Turkish myself, I've been to Turkey twice in my life. I understand what you're saying about Turkey, and how it relates to the US today. My father (a Turkish immigrant) keeps informed about all the news in the old country. Hopefully F9/11 will eventually change more minds here in the us like it has in Turkey and other parts of the world.

[hel]

55. Hey there.

What does your father think about our current situation in Turkey? Did you know that those bastard AKP guys are trying to pass an "adultery law", imposing jail time to adulterers? It's a damn disgrace.

[SmileyBoy]

56. He doesn't like this new "watered-down fundamentalist" movement.

He's mostly interested with the economic situation, with the New Lira coming out soon, and the conversion to the new currency.

But I was talking with my cousin on the phone, and she was telling me about during the election a little while back how a lot of her friends were stupidly supporting the AKP, sying how it would be good for the country and everything, just like the idiots here in the US say about *.

I haven't been to Istanbul in years. I really want to go there again sometime.

[wadestock]

58. I'm hearing what you're saying but.....

I'm afraid your conclusion is wrong....

"So; the most important thing the movie told us was that America is not the president or the politics, or the bombs and guns, the money and the corporations. I think that is a great and surprising change in image of America, for us; and it will do a lot more good to win "hearts and minds" of the people around the world."

America IS (under Bushco) all these problems and more.

1. Bush's irresponsible move from "authorization to use power" to "regime change" to "you have 48 hours to get out of town" to an all out slaughter of the entire Iraqi army and anything that stood next to any military piece of equipment....IS the most outrageous, arrogant, and ignorant move the US has made in its entire history. Saddam was clearly contained and no threat to anyone. The way this came down is clear evidence of an administration out of control. They simply viewed the Iraq War as "doable" and US casualties as tolerable. But worse yet, this is only a stepping stone to things that will make Iraq look like a walk in the park.

2. The US has clearly set the scene for INCREASED WORLD WIDE TERROR. The very basis and nature of terror against the US is in terms of its occupational ambitions in the region. The odds of gaining any real peace in the region in relationship to Israel is now near zero.

3. The lesson of 911 has been completely ignored or else misunderstood. The US is compounding the problem by turning world focus away from stopping terrorism at its very roots and turning focus to world wide regional conflicts and/or breaking down world wide cooperation against terror. Having terrorism is bad enough...let alone adding the stress of national conflicts on top of it.

I'm glad in a way that after seeing the movie you view the US as "more human"...but in no way can you interpret the present state of affairs as resembling anything which could be viewed as the US somehow being "pleasantly flawed".

There is a real probability now of Bushco getting 4 more years and that thought ought to be likened to your doctor calling you on the phone and telling you that you have terminal cancer. Bushco and its arrogant/ignorant view of the world is the gravest danger that the world faces. There is no other way to look at it.

This is an immature, arrogant and ignorant drunk backed by a neoconservative/rightwing/reconstructionist Christian warped view of the world and gaining momentum from all the worse elements of our society. Be scared to death of it.

[hel]

59. Thanks but my conclusion wasn't that at all.

Good points you are making, but none of them are what I'm talking about here. And no, I don't think Bush administration is "pleasantly flawed", just like our coup president I mentioned above wasn't anything of that sort. My post wasn't really about your administration, what it does to the world and to your own country; we all know them, I think. The sympathy we feel is for your people, the boys who got to be murderers because of politics and money, the mothers and you, the ones who know better but cannot open the eyes of their fellow countrymen.

[wadestock]

60. Sympathy is the perfect word.....

Have deep regret and sympathy for not only the ones in the US that see through all this...but the rest of the world which will have to deal with the agita of US militarism if Bushco gets another 4 years.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. I wanted you to know that perhaps back in the Vietnam war days what you said might be more applicable....here's where you could actually see a public coming together with some true grass roots anti-war movement that made a difference. Because of that war movement (inspired by the way to a great extent through John Kerry himself)....the war was brought to an end.

Ironically, the US never really got over that intelligent decision to get out. We've never matured just yet to realize that war is UNAFFORDABLE. Our military machine which has been working to an outdated "European Scenario" even since the Soviet Union dissolved, has been dying to get it on with someone, somewhere.

Don't know if you've been in the states recently but we have considerably de-evolved over the years. We had a song, "bye bye miss American pie"....which is much more appropriate today than it was during the Vietnam War. After a half-hearted Dean inspired anti-war movement, there is really not much other than Michael's movie in terms of grass roots effort to end the war.

Christ, Kerry is so afraid of touching the subject for fear of not being elected. It is a pathetic situation that has developed in this country. The vast majority is supporting Bushco fight on terrorism and childish logic that "we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here".

We have ground ourselves up with profit making, overworking, and lack of education. Our culture is virtually non-existent at this point. You have to really fear that a culture this sick is on the verge of convincing itself that it has an obligation to take on the world militarily.