On leaving the country

[G_j]

I am one who would consider leaving the country if Bush remains in office. However I am unemployed and can't imagine how I could afford it, or what countries would want people with no money showing up at their door.
This makes me think of how many other people must be in a similar situation. Would there be countries who would recognize Americans as refugees?

[ProfessorPlum]

1. they say Costa Rica is nice

And you could get there by car, if you had some time.

[TexasSissy]

59. I've heard it's getting expensive there.

And bear in mind that if you leave the country, you will not be able to use Medicare, after you've paid taxes for it. Just an FYI, for those who care. You could still get your Soc. Sec., though, I think.

[amazona]

88. costa rica probably too expensive now

Even Mexico wants you to prove you have an outside income of $2,000 a month. I think it might be half that for Belize.

I've heard if you can get $100K together you can buy your way into Panama and I like the little I've seen of that country but I haven't verified this rumor.

Escape really only seems plausible for retirees with good pensions and Soc. Sec. monthly checks for the most part.

[shrike]

99. Mexico's not that high

Apparently it fluctuates a bit, but last I heard, it was roughly $1,000 for one person. Which means you'd still have to have some kind of income to get in there.

On the other hand, I've also heard that people go in on a tourist visa, then re-cross the border every six months. Which sounds a little risky to me.

[shanti]

106. that's not uncommon

people do that in jamaica too.

[Ripley]

2. I'm hoping Canada will be so kind.

I'll be looking at Vancouver.

[ckdexter]

Don't bet on it

I doubt Canada would grant refugee status to a US citizen--especially since they have tons of refugee status applicants who are in much more dire circumstances. I've heard there are a couple of US soldiers who are currently seeking protection in Canada on the basis that the war in Iraq is illegal, but I don't know how their case is going.

Also, don't show up in Canada without money hoping to stay. You'll need about $10,000 if you want to apply for landed immigrant status (and additional money to pay for application and processing fees). However, this is not the case if you have pre-arranged employment. So if you're broke and thinking of moving out of the country, check to see if you can arrange employment in advance. Then you may have a chance.

Wherever you're thinking of moving, DO YOUR RESEARCH. Visa, immigration, money, etc. It's all really complicated, and can be time-consuming. You can't do it overnight.

[ckdexter]

92. Sorry, double post

[Carla in Ca]

103. Ripley, we are going to British Columbia

No kidding. We couldn't pass up an offer.

[Ripley]

109. Great, Carla....

BC is beautiful. Enjoy...and stay in touch..would be nice to bring your "friends" huh? :)

[freetobegay]

3. I would never consider leaving!

I'll stay & fight.

[G_j]

6. I've been fighting for a long time

what got me thinking about this was the talk of people getting assault weapons to defend themselves from the nazis.
I want no part of that.

[freetobegay]

9. All I can say is I was raised int he mountains of Kentucky

I lost alot of family during the past wars (thats what hillbillies do), No matter what happens I will defend America from outside or from within.

[G_j]

21. believe me

I love this country and would probably stay. I've always fought for justice and truth. I am a died-in-wool activist. I am a follower of MLKs school of nonviolence. I've stood face to face with lines of riot cops. But if it came to a point where I felt there was nothing I could do beyond picking up a gun to defend myself...

[freetobegay]

32. Thats ok, on how you feel, but thats where we differ

I was raised with guns & the mentality to use them in self defense. I may be Gay & a non violent person, But I have no qualms about defending what I think is right with whatever means.

[skooooo]

65. freetobegay..

...who are you going to shoot? And what will be the consequences? And what will it change?

[freetobegay]

66. Whoever tries destroying the American way of life as we know it

dpesn't matter (let the chips fall where they may). Ask our founding fathers.

[IrateCitizen]

70. "The American way of life as we know it"?

Could you please define this a little better for me? Are you referring to representative governmental institutions and the rule of law? Are you referring to a consumerist society? Are you referring to the prolifigate consumption of natural resources? Are you referring to the garrisoning of a military force strung out across the globe?

I only ask because the phrase "The American way of life as we know it" can be used to sum up all of the points above, and I just want to be clear on how you define it with regards to this discussion. Thanks.

[freetobegay]

74. Flame bait don't work with me anymore.

You got my answer & thats all I have to say.

[IrateCitizen]

78. Hey, I'm simply trying to clarify where you stand

If you classify that as "flame bait", then I can only wonder if you're truly interested in substantive dialogue and meaningful exchange of ideas. One cannot have that if they cannot clarify the perspective from which you are arriving at your beliefs. :shrug:

[freetobegay]

80. "interested in substantive dialogue"

Not with you. Sorry, been down that road before. I don't like how I was treated.

[IrateCitizen]

81. You don't like being treated with critical questions?

IIRC, all I ever did with you was to question your stances on a few issues in a critical manner.

If you can't take a little questioning and demands of consistency, then I guess there's not much I can do.... :shrug:

[freetobegay]

82. No there isn't.

[democratreformed]

25. I would like to thank those who "have been fighting for a long time".

Maybe that's the good part about my just becoming active and involved. I'm not ready to give up yet. But, I understand those of you who are. Can you offer us any advice?

[G_j]

50. the fight never ends

its a good honorable struggle, for me it will continue wherever I am. My only advice would be to remember no matter how bad it looks you are making a difference.

[skooooo]

10. end up in jail?

I'm getting scared. I'm not staying here either. This place is going to go to hell if Bush gets in office.

[liberalpress]

63. If I am to be held in jail as a political prisoner...

... then so be it. I will be noisy nd truthful when they come and get me.

[magnolia]

90. I'm with you!

My husband and I have bought a small summer cottage in Nova Scotia to escape the Virginia heat for a few months of the year. That's what we intend to use it for. NO WAY...after everything Bush has done will I allow him to run me out of my country!

[ArkDem]

4. Well......................................

We got somethin? we both know it, we don’t talk to much about it.
Man, it ain’t no real big secret, all the same somehow can’t get around it.

Listen

It don’t really matter to me, baby
You’ll believe what you wanna be
So you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee)

Somewhere somebody must have kicked you around some.
Tell me why you wanna lay there, revelling in your abandon.

It don’t really matter to me, baby
Everybody has to fight to be free
So you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee)
No you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee)

Baby we ain’t the first
I’m so enilghted in that love that’s being cursed
Right now this ain’t really human
Understand you’ve got to feel to be true, ooh!...

Somewhere somebody must have kicked you around some.
Who knows? maybe you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

It don’t really matter to me, baby
Everybody has to fight to be free
So you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee)
No you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee)
No you don’t have to live like a refugee
(don’t have to live like a refugee

[walldude]

110. Don't mean to be picky but..

The words here are wrong:

Baby we ain’t the first
I’m so enilghted in that love that’s being cursed
Right now this ain’t really human
Understand you’ve got to feel to be true, ooh!...

This is correct:

Baby we ain't the first
I'm sure a lot of other lovers been burned
Right now this ain't real to you it's
One of those things you got to feel to be true

:toast:

[RivetJoint]

5. There probably aren't any

countries that would recognize you as a refugee. Hopefully you have some highly sought after job skill. If not, with no money, you won't get into any place you'd WANT to live.

[AmerDem]

7. ANYONE willing to leave our country if shrub is reselected...

should leave now anyway. If you don't have the fight in you that our ancestors have had for our entire history, you are only USING this great country for your own purposes. To not STAND UP and fight back all that is evil is not only weak but degrades the heart and soul of every honest, caring and kindhearted American that has fought and died for our freedom.

[G_j]

8. you don't know me or my history

so you are not qualified to make that judgment.


"he fights and runs away, lives to fight another day" -Bob Marley

[AmerDem]

12. sure i'm qualified.

I'm an AMERICAN who would NEVER consider leaving my country if a group of modern day fascist tried to take it over. I instead would let them know they done FUCKED WITH THE WRONG GUY!

BTW, this has nothing at all to do with YOUR history ( what ever that is ) this has to do with our AMERICAN history. The reason America is what is today is because we have NEVER backed down in the face of fear or enemies!

[Texasgal]

22. I completely agree with you!

I would never consider leaving..... I will STAND UP and fight! I will be heard! I REFUSE to have some facist asshole run me out of MY HOME.....MY COUNTRY! I will fight until I am dead...... with every last ounce of my being.

[elf]

36. How ?

[skooooo]

43. same question I asked....

...here come the insults.

[Texasgal]

53. How you ask?

I will make sure that I volunteer my time and services to the democratic party at all times, not just election. I will vote at all elections/ no matter how small. I will not crawl in a hole, I will continue to push my political ideology on others. I will try to change minds. I will protest injustice. It's not all that difficult, if you wanna throw your hands up and leave, that's your choice. I respect it. I just REFUSE to give up.....

[skooooo]

60. Do you really think...

....that if Bush stays in office they are going to tolerate ANY dissent? What makes you think the entire political process will stay the same?

I don't.

I don't even think the constitution will remain intact. You seem to think that the same rules will continue to apply. I don't share that faith. They will take away any tools we have to effect change.

[Texasgal]

68. Bush is in office now

and I am continually offering up a heaping pile of dissent on a daily basis.

I am not afraid of what MIGHT happen, I am too busy trying to get a democrat in office NOW.

[elf]

97. good for you

We can leave whenever we want, (totally independent), but I won't!

I just love this land and half of it's people

:toast:

[HamdenRice]

33. Why this time it's different

It's funny that this thread came up because my fiance and I were just discussing emigration options last night. We were thinking of either Canada or South Africa.

I agree with your sentiment that this is our country and we should stay and fight. My roots in this country go back over 200 years, including at least four generations of slavery, so I have a big stake in this country. And if the Bush junta tried to steal an election or cancel elections or something like that I would stay and fight.

But if it's a matter of the American people actually choosing the junta, then what is there to fight? If the American people actually like having our soldiers die for an oil oligarchy, if the American people actually want wealth redistributed up to the very richest people, if they want to bankrupt the federal government so that it can't carry out any functions except militarism and paying the national debt, if the American people basically want fascism, I would feel at that point, my country is really not my country anymore. You can fight oppression but you can't really fight evil stupidity in the majority -- and I'm am beginning to think that is really what we are up against.

I like the idea of going to South Africa because it is a young country with a lot of promise and a lot of problems and a really energized, progressive majority.

[skooooo]

44. I'm feeling the same way..

If people want fascism, they'll have it no matter what the minority do.

[HamdenRice]

46. What exactly would they fight against? Democracy?

Yeah, we were talking about this yesterday. In the past, non-violent resistance was so powerful because its practitioners could isolate some utter absurdity -- like in India, people being forbidden from making salt from seawater, or in the US, southern governments preventing black people from exercising their constitutional rights. Then they would disobey the absurdity and "dare" the government to defend it. The government would then be in the absurd position, in front of the world, of defending injustice.

But in the current system, what exactly would patriots be fighting against? The decision of the majority that they actually want endless war and fascism? There is nothing to isolate and ask the state to defend in those circumstances.

I've been talking to a lot of republicans lately and even pro-Bush democrats, and there is no breaking through their magical thinking at this point. There is nothing really to protest because the majority of people really want war and fascism.

[shrike]

61. I know what you mean

I spoke with a Republican recently, college-educated man living in New York, white collar job. He still believes that Al Quaida had training camps in Iraq. He also believes that dissenters are un-American. I told him, "There's nothing more American than dissent. This country was founded on dissent." He said nothing.

I'll never forget the Texan woman who told me, quite seriously, that Clinton's extra-marital affair diminished us in the eyes of the world. "And Bush has not diminished us in the eyes of the world?" I said. "He's hated everywhere."

"I don't think the rest of the world hates him," she retorted. I filled her in on a few things and her eyes glazed over.

It's like people are hypnotized.

[coalition_unwilling]

62. The need for a new "underground railroad"

There was a huge exodus of intellectuals and refugees from post-1933 Germany and I would expect a similar trend to start developing after November.

It seems to me that there are mutliple strategies available for fighting the onset of fascism in America, both internally and externally. For those who wish to carry on the fight externally, the resistance needs to develop a new "underground railroad" to start enabling the exodus.

From what I've heard on the grapevine, the American Friends Service Committee already has something of the sort set up for war resisters. I don't know the truth of that, as I can't seem to find a source for it right now, but I will be donating funds to AFSC this year precisely b/c of it.

[HamdenRice]

69. Expats can be more helpful than people who stay...

and refugees from Europe are a good example. The majority of Germans basically went insane in the 1930s and 1940s, and arguable the tradition of German decency and democracy were preserved more by those who left and came back than by those who stayed.

I was also so impressed by the South African diaspora that kept up the pressure on the regime and informed people overseas of what was happening in the country and came back to SA when negotiations started and democracy was restored.

Even America has sent out waves of expats -- the intellectuals like Hemmingway and the other writers of the 1930s in Paris, and the Black American intellectuals who went to Paris in the 1940s and 1950s.

There is nothing inconsistent with being a patriot and leaving if the majority is simply out of touch with reality.

[ellie]

55. I feel the same way

Why would I stay in a country with people who welcome fascism? That a lot of people think smirky is a brave and glorious leader scares the hell out of me. I don't want my taxes to pay for wars and injustice. I don't want injustice perpetrated in my name. Let the True Believers™ pay. I will be out of here in a heartbeat.

[G_j]

57. I wish I could have said it as well

this whole thought process came up for me in a similar way.
I do not want to be fighting with my fellow citizens.
You can see even here in a progressive forum that there are those ready to fight that fight. Perhaps my place would be to be pleading with people not to fight each other. I am a peace maker. I will have to let my heart be my guide. I do feel I need to consider various options and not have all my eggs in one basket.

thank you for taking the time to contribute to the conversation.

[freetobegay]

35. Very well put thanks!

:hi:

[G_j]

51. in my sig line is pic of Chief Joseph

its a shame he never made it Canada.
When you speak of American ancesters these are the people that first come to my mind.

Burry My Heart at Wounded Knee

[GodHelpUsAll2]

104. Correction

The America today is NOT the same America you are referring to. The days of Glory and Honor sadly have all but passed. We have become an America that pre-emptively attacks without provacation, a country that lets it' own citizens go hungry and sick while slowly plucking away at the last few protected rights there are. Let's it's children suffer while the CEO's and corporate officers politely step over the homeless mothers, fathers and children on their way to their plush high rise office where they make billion dollar deals and funnell obscene amounts of money into Washington through lobbyists to buy more protection through law so they can continue to look down their nose at all the "mis-fits" in society. These "misfits" are, in their own words, too lazy or to un-educated to make it to the top where they currently reside. While never giving one second of thought to the fact that it was indeed the backs of these same "mis-fits" that performed the work that brought them to the top. The only thing on the mind of the "elite" CEO is how these "mis-fits" are too costly now. After all, 8 million a year will no longer do. If we send his job to China, I can increase my salary to 10 million a year. Never mind if his family eats or has a roof over their head. His/Her children will have the finest of all things.

And this ladies and gentlemen is what 50% of this country now actually "wants" in control.

[Bridget Burke]

14. You asked for opinions & object when somebody offers one.

Please enlighten us on your unique history.

Most countries demand valuable skills and/or financial resources. They will not welcome you as a penniless refugee.

[G_j]

34. huh?

I asked for opinions about the policies of countries toward American "refugees". I didn't ask for people who don't know me to judge me, although I knew that would happen, it always does when someone mentions leaving the country. It doesn't bother me, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time energy defending myself.

[AmerDem]

39. "but I'm not going to spend a lot of time energy defending myself."

This we already know from your opening post! Nothing more needs to be said!

[skooooo]

42. look..

..I know where you're coming from. But people need to talk about these things in an open way, and you can either help them think things through and persuade, or you can shut them down in anger, fear, disgust, whatever is going through your mind right now. We all need each other. Some of us are very scared and are trying to reach out. Your approach doesn't help this process.

[ArkDem]

26. More Marley

Facts an' facts, an' t'ings an t'ings: dem's all a lotta fockin' bullshit. Hear me! Dere is no truth but de one truth, an' that is the truth of Jah Rastafari."

[skooooo]

37. Where's Jah when you need him?

[ArkDem]

40. Just roll another one and Jah appears.

[skooooo]

45. don't have any

:(

[ArkDem]

49. Move to Jamaica

[skooooo]

11. how exactly can we fight..

..with republican controlled congress & Bush?? The supreme ct. will be populated with radical conservatives. No one in power will be on our side.

Just how exactly can we fight that??

[AmerDem]

13. apparently you haven't followed our own

American history. * shakes head in total disbelief*

[skooooo]

15. awww....

...thanks for the patronizing response.

[AmerDem]

17. No, Thank You

:kick:

[skooooo]

19. Why answer..

...if you can't add something to the discussion?? Why insult?
I don't get it.

Maybe someone else can help me out.

[AmerDem]

28. no one insulted you

far from it poster. Where do you get that idea? BTW, i'm not going to get into a never ending half sentence battle of the words with you. If you want out, I honestly feel it's best for our country and for you to leave!

[skooooo]

31. Look...

I asked a question and you come back acting like I"m stupid and don't know American history. I KNOW American history. I'm an educated person. So your answer was BS. You add nothing to the discussion.

[RapidCreek]

111. Well come on friend spit it out....or are you afraid too?

Whatcha gonna do? Say it...say it loud and clear baby....you can bet your ass Johnny Boy has his minions reading the posts on this board....tell us..tell me....watcha gonna do, tough guy? Show me that American spirit...be brave.

The majority of Future Americans in the day of our countries founding did not believe in a fascist/monarchy and the majority of Americans today DO. What, you got a fleet of T-55's and a few divisions of hell bent, armed to the teeth mercenaries we don't know about?

RC

[Pigkiller]

23. I don't think he knows

All hype but no plan. Tell us. How will we fight?

[IrateCitizen]

24. I suggest you read "A People's History of the United States"

by Howard Zinn. It is replete with examples of people organizing and fighting back against various injustices -- many worse than what we are experiencing right now -- throughout our nation's history.

Forget about institutions "being on our side". What we have to do is ORGANIZE. That's how we fight back -- and eventually win!

[skooooo]

29. Thanks for thoughtful response...

...I'm just afraid in this climate anything we do will just end up getting beat down....damn. So we're going to have to relive the 1930s union vs. company violence, the same violence the blacks experienced during the 1950s during the struggle for civil rights...

Even then, there were powerful people on the right side of things. Roosevelt...Kennedy...

Maybe I'm wrong but these seems potentially worse.

[IrateCitizen]

38. They only seem potentially worse because we're living them...

... rather than reading about them in some book.

Do you honestly expect resistance to and struggle against injustice to be easy? It never has been, nor will it ever be. As Fredrick Douglass famously remarked, "Power concedes nothing without a fight." So, we should expect a fight, and not delude ourselves that the struggle will be either pretty or easy.

But when we despair, we should also remember the words of Rev. King: "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." The current system is crumbling, that is why it appears that those in power are so desperate to cling to it. Although we should realize that they will fight like hell in order to keep power, we should take comfort in the fact that their system is one that has outlived its time, and that its demise is inevitable. We need to all work to ensure that a system based on true justice (peace, after all, is not the mere absence of violence but better defined by the presence of justice) rises in its place.

[skooooo]

41. I never imagined..

...things would take a turn like this. I'm not young anymore. I'm hot headed. I'll end up getting in trouble if I stay. That's for sure.

[G_j]

52. wonderful post IC

it gives me hope to read a response such as this.
Oh yes the system is in decline.
You know from past conversations that I was CC during Vietnam and am committed to nonviolent struggle.
I will never give up, just want to find the place where I can do the most good. I would be of little use on a 'reservation' me thinks.

[T Wolf]

27. guerilla warfare

There are many things that can be done on an individual basis to monkey-wrench the system if it is totally corrupted. But you first have to recognize that you are in a war. Throw out the Marquess of Queensberry rules and use every weapon you have.

And yes, it is tempting to just leave (if you can) and "let them Cheney themselves" but the reality is that (1) many here will suffer if we quit and (2) they will spread their destruction everywhere in the world so it will catch up to you whereever you go. Just like pollution, repuke evil recognizes no boundaries.

[Pushed To The Left]

101. Here are my plans IF Bush wins..

First, I would give $100 (a lot for me) to the ACLU and become a monthly donor to People For the American Way if Bush wins. I think we should all support civil liberties groups with the same passion we support our candidates should that happen. These groups have a habit of smacking around the right-wing in court. Why do you think the right-wing hates them so much? Maybe they could smash some right-wing laws and win some progressive cases before Bush has a chance to stack the courts.

I think it would then be a good idea for us to contact the moderate-to-liberal Supreme Court members and urge them to hang in there for a few more years. We could tell them their country needs them! A truely progressive SC member probably wouldn't like the idea of Bush choosing his or her replacement.

Finally, if the moderate-to-liberal court members can hang on for even two years, it would be time for another election. We can work hard to get a strong Democratic majority in Congress. Then, no right-wing appointee will stand a chance!

[Zorra]

47. LOL.

Americans didn't do anything after Bu$h stole the election in 2000 and they won't do anything if he steals the next one. Americans are so fat they couldn't even boycott donuts, or go on strike for an hour to save their freedom.

So, what's the plan if Bu$h steals the next election? Yell at your TV when Bu$h comes on and tells everyone that Patriot Act II has just turned the Constitution into toilet paper?

And what are you going to do to "help" the cause that someone who leaves the country can't do? At least someone that leaves the country can stop paying taxes and is no longer participating in the the financial system that supports the dictatorship. At the same time, someone living outside the country can still vote, donate, and participate in the political system.

[meow mix]

48. lol, as a non-leaver.. im now laughing.

for some people it might be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable choice.
you just wanted to go off on a "LOOK AT ME EVERYONE IM A FUCKING SUPER-HERO" type rant so u can feel special.

get real. if the larger majority of americans want a hitler/nazi state then its going to happen no matter what super-powers you are planning to use.

[goddess40]

56. I have two boys that I won't allow W to kill for profit

If it were just me I would stay and fight but I must do everything possible to protect my sons.

[HamdenRice]

58. You raise a really great generational point...

I think a lot of people who are expressing macho bravado about staying and fighting no matter what are much younger people. But when you are older and have kids and have a little savings, you start to wonder, would I sacrifice my family for this? Especially if the country seems determined to embrace fascism. Is your first obligation to your country or to your family? If it's to your family, you might decide to get them to a safe place as a first priority.

[Bjornsdotter]

89. Exactly!

...My situation, if it were just me and my husband I would stay and fight. However, I have 2 teens to think about....I will get them out if I have to....very quickly also; passports are in order...family on alert. If a draft were to happen as predicted for 2005 my son would be 18 in 2005 and perhaps one of the first to go. I'm not taking that chance.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:

[rucky]

112. Tell it to my German-Jewish immigrant grandparents n/t

[OnionPatch]

16. You can still vote

It's not like you can't vote, write letters to papers and so on while you're out of the country. You're still a citizen.
Some of us have children we don't want to raise in the coming fascist atmosphere.

[skooooo]

20. Doesn't seem to be doing much good...

...I'm really down this morning. Discouraged.

[noonwitch]

18. I'm not leaving-this is as much my country as anyone elses

As much as Bush is wrecking our nation, it's still a better place to live in than most other countries. There's always 2008 to consider, too.

[gulfcoastliberal]

30. Depends on your skills...

Most countries will take you if you have a certain skill set, eg lawyer, programmer, etc. I just have a bachelor in History - hardly highly skilled. I am thinking of going to law school if Kerry wins. If Kerry loses, I am going to try to emigrate to either New Zealand or Australia. I have some property I can sell, plus my parents think I should leave due to the US' rapid decline towards banana republic/3rd world status. The middle class is being systematically destroyed.

[KoKo]

54. "Acts of Hope" --Challenging Empire on the World Stage...good read

Passing along Rebecca Solnit's encouraging article. It's great to read when one is discouraged. G_L you are probably familiar with it. It was passed along to me by poster "drfemoe" one time when I was thinking about leaving US and where I would go.

--------------------------------------------------------

Acts of Hope
Challenging Empire on the World Stage
by Rebecca Solnit


What We Hope For

On January 18, 1915, six months into the first world war, the first terrible war in the modern sense -- slaughter by the hundreds of thousands, poison gas, men living and dying in the open graves of trench warfare, tanks, barbed wire, machine guns, airplanes -- Virginia Woolf wrote in her journal, "The future is dark, which is on the whole, the best thing the future can be, I think." Dark, she seems to say, as in inscrutable, not as in terrible. We often mistake the one for the other. People imagine the end of the world is nigh because the future is unimaginable. Who twenty years ago would have pictured a world without the USSR and with the Internet? We talk about "what we hope for" in terms of what we hope will come to pass but we could think of it another way, as why we hope. We hope on principle, we hope tactically and strategically, we hope because the future is dark, we hope because it's a more powerful and more joyful way to live. Despair presumes it knows what will happen next. But who, two decades ago, would have imagined that the Canadian government would give a huge swathe of the north back to its indigenous people, or that the imprisoned Nelson Mandela would become president of a free South Africa?

Twenty-one years ago this June, a million people gathered in Central Park to demand a nuclear freeze. They didn't get it. The movement was full of people who believed they'd realize their goal in a few years and then go home. Many went home disappointed or burned out. But in less than a decade, major nuclear arms reductions were negotiated, helped along by European antinuclear movements and the impetus they gave Gorbachev. Since then, the issue has fallen off the map and we have lost much of what was gained. The US never ratified the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, and the Bush administration is planning to resume the full-fledged nuclear testing halted in 1991, to resume manufacture, to expand the arsenal, and perhaps even to use it in once-proscribed ways.
It's always too soon to go home. And it's always too soon to calculate effect. I once read an anecdote by someone in Women Strike for Peace, the first great antinuclear movement in the United States, the one that did contribute to a major victory: the 1963 end of aboveground nuclear testing with its radioactive fallout that was showing up in mother's milk and baby teeth. She told of how foolish and futile she felt standing in the rain one morning protesting at the Kennedy White House. Years later she heard Dr. Benjamin Spock -- one of the most high-profile activists on the issue then -- say that the turning point for him was seeing a small group of women standing in the rain, protesting at the White House. If they were so passionately committed, he thought, he should give the issue more consideration himself.

Unending Change
A lot of activists expect that for every action there is an equal and opposite and punctual reaction, and regard the lack of one as failure. After all, activism is often a reaction: Bush decides to invade Iraq, we create a global peace movement in which 10 to 30 million people march on seven continents on the same weekend. But history is shaped by the groundswells and common dreams that single acts and moments only represent. It's a landscape more complicated than commensurate cause and effect. Politics is a surface in which transformation comes about as much because of pervasive changes in the depths of the collective imagination as because of visible acts, though both are necessary. And though huge causes sometimes have little effect, tiny ones occasionally have huge consequences.

more at:

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/sidebars/Patriotism/index_Solnit.html

[G_j]

72. Thank you!

this is very good and certainly hits home for me. I haven't finished it yet as I am trying to do about five things at once.

But this brought to mind a wonderful letter by Clarissa Pinkola Estes
(author of "Women Who Run With Wolves") So I gift this back to you. :-)

http://www.twinoakscenter.com/perspec/perspectives_cpestes.htm

CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTES, Ph. D.


Letter to a Young Activist During Troubled Times

Do not lose heart. We were made for these times. I have heard from so many recently who are deeply and properly bewildered. They are concerned about the state of affairs in our world right now . . . Ours is a time of almost daily astonishment and often righteous rage over the latest degradations of what matters most to civilized, visionary people.

You are right in your assessments. The lustre and hubris some have aspired to while endorsing acts so heinous against children, elders, everyday people, the poor, the unguarded, the helpless, is breathtaking. Yet, I urge you, ask you, gentle you, to please not spend your spirit dry by bewailing these difficult times. Especially do not lose hope. Most particularly because, the fact is - we were made for these times. Yes. For years, we have been learning, practicing, been in training for and just waiting to meet on this exact plane of engagement . . .

I grew up on the Great Lakes and recognize a seaworthy vessel when I see one. Regarding awakened souls, there have never been more able crafts in the waters than there are right now across the world. And they are fully provisioned and able to signal one another as never before in the history of humankind . . . Look out over the prow; there are millions of boats of righteous souls on the waters with you. Even though your veneers may shiver from every wave in this stormy roil, I assure you that the long timbers composing your prow and rudder come from a greater forest. That long-grained lumber is known to withstand storms, to hold together, to hold its own, and to advance, regardless.

We have been in training for a dark time such as this, since the day we assented to come to Earth. For many decades, worldwide, souls just like us have been felled and left for dead in so many ways over and over brought down by naivete, by lack of love, by being ambushed and assaulted by various cultural and personal shocks in the extreme. We have a history of being gutted, and yet remember this especially -- we have also, of necessity, perfected the knack of resurrection. Over and over again we have been the living proof that that which has been exiled, lost, or foundered can be restored to life again.

..more.. (it gets even better)..

[donkeyotay]

64. I keep having the same thoughts about leaving and where to go

Some of the reactions to this post remind me of an article Michael Ruppert wrote back before bush got his war. He was responding to folks who had just gotten involved and how some of them seemed to have an overly confident view of their power to change the political outcome. Ruppert noted that many people had fought many battles, and many of them had been spent in the process. The fresh horses come in and think that surely they can turn the tide.

Protest comes in many forms. I've come to the point where it is not acceptable to me to have my taxes used to support this junta. That leaves me with two choices: I can go to jail, or I can leave. If I go to jail, will you be joining me there?

Call me a coward, a quitter, or un-American... whatever super-patriotic crap you want to hurl, but I don't think that going to jail in this fascist state it going to change anything.

Knowing what we know today, if a) a majority of Americans are okay with bush or b) the junta rigs another election (with media complicity) I think leaving is a perfectly reasonable response, one I might choose myself.

There are practical issues of where to go and what country would accept us, as we would be refugees.

[HamdenRice]

71. Getting down to brass tacks ...

Assuming that leaving after November if Bush wins is a legitimate response, we can also talk about the practicalities of leaving.

First of all, you don't have to be formally a refugee to leave. It is very easy to go to most European countries, especially England. I lived in London for about 2 months a few years ago, and could really see myself living there. It is probably the country in Europe that takes the least adjustment.

If you have in demand skills, a lot of countries welcome Americans as important additions to the labor force. South Africa, which has a lot of high tech and industrial sectors desperately lacks skilled people and would welcome most Americans instantaneously, including work visas.

The biggest hurdles to emigration are (1) getting enough money to travel, pay a deposit on an apartment and see you through the period it takes to get a job (2) getting a work visa -- which can depend on the country and your skill level and (3) getting an actual job.

Emigrating is really not as difficult as people think.

[Green Lantern]

108. Age

can be a factor too. Those of us who are leading the boomer rush into retirement have our productivity behind us, for the most part. we have little to offer except medical problems and pensions.

I would try and see my children and grandchildren into another country. Myself, I would stay.

In any event, it is a sad sad commentary that we are even considering this issue. This signals a sense of lack of recourse after Nov. if Bush wins. The RP has ignored or re-written many laws to suit themselves. We can ignore their laws at our peril, but must be prepared to fight.

I think the repugs might well be surprised how many old vets would stay and fight. I took an oath once, to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic...guess I will do it again.

[BeHereNow]

67. Expat discussion board here:

http://www.expatfocus.com/
Global group.
BHN

[G_j]

76. now that is a valuable resource

you can be sure I've bookmarked this.
This is the reason I made the original post in hopes of getting a better grasp on whats going on 'out there'.

:toast:

[BeHereNow]

95. I posted this thread for you in GD too-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2329977
It has the link to escapeartist, the BEST site on the net
for Americans who want to escape what's coming.
You'll love this site!
http://www.escapeartist.com
ENJOY!
You'll get so much hope just cruising the site-
there is SO much information there, job listings,
real estate- everytime I visit it, I start feeling
hope for a better life.
Being an American right now is like being
a betrayed lover- after mourning, it's best
to find someone new.
Consider escapeartist.com like a singles dating service
start shopping around for someone new...
LOL...
BHN

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. G_j

I fully understand your desire to leave. If Bushboy is elected for real or manages to steal the election with nary a whimper from the public, I will feel that the nation has betrayed its ideals and is no longer the country that I was brought up to love.

It's a sense of betrayal, like finding out that a friend you thought you knew is actually a sociopath or so codependent with a criminal that s/he will do anything to further that criminal's interests. In such a case, you would no longer want to be known as an associate of that person.

I've been alienated from Middle American suburban culture, the majority culture in this land, for a long time. In fact, one reason that I enjoy being in Japan is that the typical expatriate there is more interesting and aware than the typical TV-sotted Middle American.

If it weren't for the fact that I have an elderly mother and stepfather (my mother keeps wishing she and my father had moved to Canada in the 1950s when they had the chance), I'd try hard to relocate to Japan. It's not that Japan has a perfect government--far from it!--but its government is not mean in the same way that the Republicanites are.

For people who have no tech job skills but do have a four-year degree in some other area, the easiest way to gain residence in a foreign country is to teach conversational English. There are schools all over that offer ESL certificates in a month of coursework (TESOL is the most common in the U.S. and CELTA is the most common in the UK), and there are plenty of opportunities in China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Latin America, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe.

Information Central is on the Internet is Dave's ESL Cafe

http://www.eslcafe.com

I'm part Latvian, and when Latvia and the other Baltic States were taken over by the Soviet Union in 1944, a lot of people fled to the West or refused to be repatriated from the German slave labor camps where they had been taken. Others stayed in Latvia and fought guerilla-style well into the 1950s, although the last reported guerilla activity was in 1952.

And things were very, very bad. The Soviets held "votes" in the Baltic States in which the ballots had only one item: "I want my country to join the Soviet Union." If you didn't cast a vote, you didn't get a food ration card, and you had to either starve or leave. In order to dilute nationalist sentiments, Stalin ordered thousands of random Latvians deported to other parts of the Soviet Union and moved thousands of ethnic Russians and other ethnic groups in.

But the Latvian people as a whole did not fight back until the Gorbachev era, when it became safe to do so.

Or think of the Nazi era from the point of view of non-Jewish anti-Nazis. Many left rather than support Hitler. Some stayed and fought, and by the time World War II began, 120,000 of them were in prison. But the German people as a whole didn't lose faith with the Nazis until after the war.

Or think of Argentina in the 1970s--which is probably the situation closest to our own. A right-wing dictatorship took over on the premise of "fighting terrorism," because there had been a few domestic terrorist incidents. Although the junta ended up killing 30,000 of their own people, they did not see much resistance from the general public until they lost the Falkland Islands War.

Sad to say, most people in most places have been discouragingly docile when faced with a dictatorship. In a memorable passage in The Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn wonders what would have happened if, every time Stalin's secret police came to arrest someone in the middle of the night, they had been met by angry mobs of the victim's friends and neighbors brandishing knives and clubs. There are a few stories from Nazi Germany of people successfully resisting Nazi orders (a church-related home for disabled people who had been abandoned by their families refused to turn its residents over for extermination, a group of women with Jewish husbands were able to get their husbands released, etc.), but the majority of the population either got caught up in the madness or decided to lie low for the duration.

Each of us has to look at our own situation and decide what we are ready and willing to do. If you feel that you can accomplish something by staying and fighting, do so. If you just can't deal with the whole mess anymore and you have no compelling reason to stay, leave, whether for a lifetime or for a few years of R&R.

I'm not going to condemn anyone either way.

[HamdenRice]

79. Argentina...

You wrote:

Or think of Argentina in the 1970s--which is probably the situation closest to our own. A right-wing dictatorship took over on the premise of "fighting terrorism," because there had been a few domestic terrorist incidents. Although the junta ended up killing 30,000 of their own people, they did not see much resistance from the general public until they lost the Falkland Islands War.

I think that's right -- it is a lot like Argentina, and I have several friends from Argentina who think so. Argentina was not as extreme a case as Chile. I could see a Bush II administration -- or God forbid, once elections are completely controllable an Ashcroft 2008 administration -- justifying to itself the dissapearance of "only" a few thousand.

They have already tried to set up everything -- everything -- needed for a slightly camoflouged dictatorship in the name of fighting terrorism: the right to hold people, both foreigners and citizens, without trial or charges indefinitely, the right to torture to get "confessions" and accusations against yet others as terrorists, off shore prisons, control of the media and relentless "fear" propoganda, and rigged elections.

What more do we need to see to understand their intentions???

I believe that if they pull this off, Americans will eventually restore democracy, but the price will be high -- a bankrupted central government, vastly increased poverty and worst of all, a coarsened desperate population. My Argentine friends are here because their family members basically sent them out to start a new life elsewhere.

If the Bush junta gets its way, the biggest exodus may be not after their reselection, but after democracy is restored over the rubble of what they leave behind.

[G_j]

84. history offers perspective

that is easy to lose.
Your examples open up a larger vantage point from which our situation can be considered. I like to think that I have a sense of intuition and heart that if I am diligent in keeping healthy, will lead me where I need to be.

You have relatives that need your support here. Although my parents have passed, I am compelled to think I might be led to stay here because of the elderly and others who are in need of support.
It really comes down to where a person finds they can be of most good. I am trying to grasp the choices that may or may not lay ahead.
To me it is not about running away.

I like the idea of teaching English, so that information is very helpful to me.

I very much appreciate your thoughtful post.
:-)

[KoKo]

91. Thanks for sharing your experience, Lydia... It's an interesting

perspective to think about.

[chiburb]

116. Beautiful post, simply beautiful...

Thank you.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

77. I going to stay and fight

but I am developing a backdoor plan. I remember listening to Chalmers Johnson say it would be wise to do so.

[ursacorwin]

83. there's so much to consider.

i'm going to assume you're in or past your 40s. that makes leaving a lot harder if you're poor, most nations don't want you unless you're young. but there are many options to consider, perhaps you can find one that is right for you and fits into the time frame you imagine. i've thought a lot about it, as i'm in the same boat you are except i'm younger and have no real family concerns.

i think the bottom line, however, is one that hasn't really been discussed fully yet. there is no place on the earth that is truly safe from the fascist powers rising in the us today. think about it- bush has f*cked up everything: the environment, our economy and thus the global economic balance, the middle east, our military, the list goes on and on. the us is for all practical purposes the engine that drives the globe, and which overly influences direction as well. leaving will only put you at a greater distance with respect to having any impact in the effort to stop them. and believe me, sooner or later forces will rise to stop the cabal- but it's still to early to predict what form they will take.

personally, i'm pretty sure america will steadily decline, and real change will come from without and from the efforts of a forgotten few who will greatly suffer in the coming decade or so as the protections granted by our constitution are removed. i see a real chance for WWIII, and a nuclear holocaust that basically makes all this a moot point. i see a dearth of progressive leadership at the highest levels, and unprecedented tools for control on the part of the cabal. add to the mix the global phenom. of inflamed relgious passions and extremism, and you've got an ugly situation i'm not sure how we escape from.

so my short answer to your question would be: run if you like, but if you stay you'll be in on the fun. the only way to face what's coming is to embrace it, and find some role for yourself you can live with. make an effort to fight the fascists, because even if you don't, you'll still suffer under them. what do you have to lose?

[mmonk]

94. I have two sons

and all this isn't what I had in mind for them.

[hiphopnation]

85. Our intelligent,

socialist-oriented, frigid neighbors to the north are looking more inviting by the day. Vancouver, maybe? :shrug::scared:

[GreenPartyVoter]

86. I am thinking Ireland might take my family because

my great-grandfather was from there. Not sure, but Nana may have dual citizenship, and possibly my dad too.

[amazona]

87. no one wants people w/out money showing up

I can't imagine that anyone would take you in as a refugee. Even Canada no longer wants American refugees, although they took them in the Vietnam era. Were they or other western countries to open to American refugees, they would be swamped with American medical and economic refugees.

On edit -- if you have some special skill AND you're under age 45, it's a different story. But older folks are only wanted for their money. Not knowing your age, I can only address what my own research has uncovered.

[JCMach1]

93. Take a job here in Dubai... you won't regret it...

The most modern/futuristic/multicultural city in the world would be growing around your feet.

[Obamarama]

96. I'm torn on this as well....

My history:

On my father's side, my family has been here since 1632, when we still mere colonies. My ancestors have fought in every major war from the American Revolution to my father in WWII, and my older brother in Vietnam. A 372-year old family history here makes me want to stay and fight for change, so that everything my ancestors fought and hoped for was not in vain.

On the other hand, my mother is a French Jew. My grandfather was a professor and had a fellowship to teach at an East Coast college and they lived here from 1928-1936. They returned to France in 1937, and when things started to unravel very quickly throughout Europe, they returned to the US in 1939, almost literally on the eve of WWII. My mothers family that remained in France were deported to the concentration camps, where they suffered and died with the other 6+ million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and other assorted "untermenschen." That chapter in my family history has placed me in a position where I am monitoring what is happening so I can be one step ahead of the henchmen.

I am truly conflicted. I do have options....I could go to Canada as I have enough professional background to get non-resident working status if I wanted. Also, since my mother is French, there is a route you can take throught the EU to apply for dual citizenship. I believe you are eligible to do this even if your grandparents were immigrants from an EU nation, but you can only go back two generations.

I would not just carte blanche leave if Bush the Madman is re-elected, but if he is I am at least going to more seriously consider my options and get a plan in place so that if things really do go down the rathole, I can get our before it's too late. I may have 372 years of family history in this country, but when I hear my mom talk about barely escaping the death camps in Europe and what life was like there under a political dictatorship, trust me...if there is even a HINT of that unraveling here, I will be gone. Probably not forever, but at least until true democracy can become reestablished.

[Strelnikov_]

98. Some Words Of Comfort

Even if Boosh does pull out this election, the country is still going to be 50/50. If he does pull it out, it will be because they were able to perpetuate the big lie for just a little longer. Most of the people I know who support the GOP do so because of their supposed superiority in economic policy and national defense. With the economic and military disasters that are going to occur within the first couple of years into the next term, the Potemkin Village built by the GOP will collapse, and so will the GOP majority in politics. I do not think Boosh will even last the full second term (ala Nixon).

Let’s face it, the GOP has successfully delayed the day of reckoning until after the election by diverting any concerns people may have to 9/11 and the ‘war on terra’. Also, although many on this board see the coming storm, a critical mass of sheeple buy into the ‘turning the corner’ mantra. Also, a vast majority of the country has no investment (relatives) in the branches of the military currently in harms way.

Regarding the draft, and expanding the ‘war on terra’, I think they are going to try. Problem is, we are going to run out of money before they can go very far. I feel we are going to have a fall similar to the (former) Soviet Union. As for our democracy, I still have hope. If a partially democratic Russia could emerge from the ruins of the Soviet Union, I feel that our democracy, after a through house cleaning, will emerge stronger than before.

So, the question becomes, how to ride out the next 10 years? For myself, I plan to live in a ‘low orbital state’. That is, living simply and saving everything I can. A move to a hard ‘blue’ area is a possibility to make things more bearable. Also, these are the areas the recovery will emerge from.

However, if we meet someday in a ‘relocation camp’, you had better not remind me how wrong I was or I’ll dump my maggot soup on your head.

[G_j]

100. good post

you make excellent points.

First of all, let me say that I consider the odds to be good that America will say NO to Bush. It will still remain to be seen if they are successful in pulling another coup.

I think one very important point you make is that the country is split, and that means at least a hundred million people who are opposed to the fascists.
Not only that, but they have made some serious life-long enemies in high and powerful places because of their smears and vicious attacks on people. I can't imagine that any admin. including Nixon's, has made so many bitter enemies.
As rule, the same ppl you misuse on the way up you meet up on the way back down.

Another comparison to Nixon is that I suspect we would be hearing howls for impeachment.

[Cleita]

102. Years ago you could immigrate to Australia

providing you had a skill or profession they needed. They would pay your fare there, and help you settle in, but I don't know if they still do that.

[gospelized]

105. i guess i'm lucky

in that i was born in france and my family moved here when i was 5. and i have plenty of money. so i should have no problem at all going back there.

i will set up some guest rooms for the rest of you.

[VOX]

107. Got $1,000,000 NZD? If so, you can immigrate to NZ as an investor...

Right now, that's $650,979 US.

But they have a very stringent quarantine on pets. Quarantine is for at least thirty days and will cost you around $1,000 NZfor each thirty day period.

I have a friend who recently moved to New Zealand, and his beloved dog died while in quarantine.

[popinjay]

113. Refugee status

Does anyone doubt that Cuba would welcome American refugees? Didn't Leslie Stahl (I can't remember for sure if it was her) do a special on Cuba? I remember watching it (60 Minutes, maybe) and thinking it didn't look too bad there. Free healthcare, etc. And the political impact would be priceless!!!

And as close as it is, it shouldn't cost that much to get there. It would probably be more expensive for me to get to Florida. Any thoughts?

[G_j]

114. welcome to DU!

I doubt the US gov would allow it but your comment brings up the image of American boat people heading the OTHER way.
Strange days indeed.

[Doctor_J]

115. we are hoping for CAN

we score high on their point system. I am hoping to get a job in BC (there are 4 posted that I am qualified for), and Mrs. TOJ is extremely employable.

I would like to stay, but the country is too far gone. I can't even watch a football game without being hit by unpaid ads for Smirky. 1/2 the people here think I am a terrorist because I don't believe *'s lies. And I don't believe * is the disease, just a symptom. The fact that he's going to get 50 million votes is evidence that the US is deep in the throes of terminal cancer.