Attack on Kerry's Silver Star

[Kal Belgarion]

I'm talking with one Republican, and he keeps bringing up that "Kerry claimed to have a "combat V" on his Silver star when the Navy says the combat V is NEVER awarded with the sliver star."

What is a "combat V?" And did Kerry earn one, or say that he earned one?

[papau]

1. It was given in error per the Navy - not a Kerry error - a Navy paper says

with combat V

and that is about it.

By definition, a Silver Star is "Combat V" so it would be redundant to add a "Combat V".

[SoCalDemocrat]

11. clerical error

Any links to a source from the Navy acknowledging the error?

We all know it's a clerical error, but the CON's love to rant on and on and on about this inane subject.

[Disturbed]

13. GW Bush falsehood of medal

Why aren't the freeptards talkin' 'bout the medal W was wearing that he never earned?

[papau]

17. AP reported Navy said it was a clerical error - I do not have link

:-)

[newyawker99]

28. Hi SoCalDemocrat!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Kerry won the BRONZE STAR with combat "V".

From a reference on US military decorations:

The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded to individuals who, while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States in a combat theater, distinguish themselves by heroism, outstanding achievement, or by meritorious service not involving aerial flight.

The "V" device is worn when the medal is awarded for heroism in combat.

("V" standing for "valour", I suppose.)

[bowens43]

3. There isn't anything about a 'V' for Valor

in his silver star citation and Kerry didn't claim to have earned one.. They are referring to his DD214 form which lists a Silver Star with a combat V. This was most likely a mistake by the clerk who typed it up.

[The Traveler]

4. That would be the bronze star

yer bud is an idiot. Kerry also won the Bronze and I do believe it had the combat V decoration. (Bronze star can also be awarded for non-combat meritorious conduct.) Guess Kerry won too many medals for the average Rethuglican to follow ...

Happy trails, friend.

[Vickers]

5. Ask that Republican about Georgie's Outstanding Unit Award

Shit, even I got one of them! :spank:

[noiretextatique]

6. better yet, ask him about the 60 minutes story

on awol georgie...

[Vickers]

8. Or ask him why he was wearing that OUA when he didn't earn it!

Heck, all my medals and ribbons I earned, they are right there on my DD214.

I mean, I can almost SEE somebody lying about a really cool medal, but c'mon...an Outstanding Unit Award?

That's like counterfeiting one dollar bills!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

It's a nonissue, because the Silver Star by its definition would

require valor to win, so the "V" is not part of the decoration. Probably some Navy clerical error. So it's no issue of Kerry embellishing anything. He won the Silver Star. By definition his actions in combat were brave and "valorous" or he wouldn't have won the medal.

Does that clarify anything?

[gollygee]

7. Kerry *claimed*? ? ? (m)

Funny how people can turn a simple clerical error over which Kerry has no control into Kerry *claiming* something.

[ROC]

9. Afew years back a distinguished CNO committed suicide over this issue

He had a distinguished record in the VN era. Apparently he thought he could wear the V device. Even Elmo Zumwalt defended him.

[karlrschneider]

10. Wow, you're right, I recall that...do you remember the name?

...

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Admiral Jeremy Boorda, I think it was.

Been almost ten years now.

[ROC]

15. Yes

As I recall there was some doubt about the commendation, but the paperwork didn't specify. Boorda was well liked by enlisted. Did a lot for them. It was pretty much a press/media issue.

[Kal Belgarion]

12. Okay, fellas, thanks for clearing that up (eom)

[A_Possum]

16. Photo of Kerry w/Silver Star in Vietnam

What point are they trying to make? That he never won a Silver Star at all? Or that he somehow "faked" the paperwork? Please.

FACTS: Kerry was awarded the Silver Star at An Thoi in Vietnam shortly after an action that took place on February 28, 1969. The decision to award Kerry the Silver Star was made by Admiral Zumwalt, who at first had put him up for the Navy Cross, but decided that award would take too long to clear with the Navy bureaucracy.

There are a number of witnesses to the medal ceremony in which Zumwalt pinned Kerry with the Silver Star, including Commander Charles Horne and Commander George Elliot, who later said, "We were trying to pay tribute to Kerry and the others for going above and beyond the call of duty. The Silver Star is always a big deal." Tommy Belodeau (deceased) and Mike Madeiros were given Bronze Stars, and Del Sandusky, Fred Short and Gene Thorson were given Navy Commendation Medals with Combat V in the same ceremony at An Thoi.

This is the Silver Star:



This is a photo of Kerry and his crew after the medal ceremony. Kerry wears the star on his uniform, the medal on the right.




What point are they trying to make? That he never won a Silver Star at all? Or that he somehow "faked" the paperwork? Please.

[Vickers]

18. Look how unhappy his troops look

NOT!

Also, he has a Purple Heart next to his Silver Star. Must've cut himself shaving that morning :eyes:

[0rganism]

19. This is a famous GOP distortion, due to a clerical error on the DD214

You can look at the equally famous photo of John Kerry testifying to congress, he's wearing his ribbons, and his Silver Star CLEARLY DOES NOT HAVE A COMBAT V.



The republican implication is, of course, absolutely preposterous: Lt. Kerry is alleged to have conned the US Navy into cooking up a medal that did not exist. It doesn't make sense at all. Do the republicans think the Navy brass are IDIOTS?

[Vickers]

20. Hey, and you can see his Vietnam Campaign Ribbon

Huh...where is Georgie's?

:shrug:

[UTUSN]

21. Most Enlisted Persons Don't Know/"Do" Clerical

But I'm sure your question was sincere.

[Devil Dog Dem]

22. Oh yes they do.

They did ALL of it when I was in the Corps.

[UTUSN]

24. What Did They Do? n/t

[Devil Dog Dem]

26. Clerical work

I never had an officer touch my file accept to sign something that a Lance Corporal typed up and put in front of him to sign.

That is what you were talking about, isn't it? Or did I misunderstand?

[Vickers]

30. I'm ex-USAF. and all of the administrative work is done by enlisted folks

All of the folks who work in the orderly room or CBPO (personnel office) were enlisted.

The guy who signed my discharge paperwork was a TSgt.

Usually the squadron section commander (1st or 2nd Lieutenant) signed day to day paperwork.

[RapidCreek]

27. What?

I don't know what service you were in. Have you ever heard of a

Yeoman: YNs perform secretarial and clerical work. YNs oganize files, write and type buisness and social letters, notices, directives, forms and reports. They maintain files and service records.

In fact it's pretty fucking rare that anyone BUT enlisted people do clerical work in the Navy.

RC

[UTUSN]

29. O.K., Let's Fight. Yep, Yeomen (& Personnelmen)

1) ARE enlisted, and 2) DO clerical work.

That does away with whatever your point was.


The vast majority of the FIGHTING/COMBAT personnel are decidedly NOT Yeomen. Now, what's the next point?

[RapidCreek]

32. What's yours?

You didn't say Fighting/Combat...you said Enlisted...first of all.

You did say Most enlisted people don't know/do clerical work. A remark that has little to do with the crux of this post.

I might as well say most enlisted people don't know/do pipe fitting. Most officers don't either but that of course doesn't detract from the point that most all the pipe fitting done in the Navy is done by enlisted UT's.

So I'll ask again...what's your point? That you like to posit fallacies?

RC

[UTUSN]

33. Let's Continue This to Its Miserable End

I was challenged, fallaciously I will say, for saying that "most enlisted don't know/do clerical work".

That poster chose to mis-read by saying that ALL clerical ARE enlisted personnel. Yeppers, while ALL clerical ARE enlisted, the VAST MAJORITY of ALL enlisted personnnel are NOT clerical. Simple, eh?

After I responded to that, you chose to reinforce MY original point by listing how each job rating knows about its own job and, generally, doesn't know those of OTHERS. Yes, Engineering Dept types know their ratings other there AND NOT CLERICAL, pipe fitters know pipe fitting AND NOT CLERICAL, and combat personnel do that AND NOT CLERICAL. The VAST majority of ALL ENLISTED personnel are NOT CLERICAL types. What's so difficult about that?

My original point was not complicated and didn't deserve the vociferous response it got.

I will say that of the hundreds of vets I have known as civilians, after our military time was over, NONE knew the regulations for eligiblity of their own decorations, MANY of them didn't even know what they were eligible for, and FEW of them put much emphasis on them at all---which in most cases is the appropriate attitude, come to think of it.

While the eligibility criteria is written down in manuals, and whoever can read might get close to interpreting it, doing so DOES take a certain amount of job proficiency and training, LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB RATING, and untrained (in this job) persons are likely, not only to be wrong about some criteria, but ALSO (as with the swiftbots) VERY likely to give a wrong EMPHASIS on the importance or lack of it in their interpretations.

The thread's original post asked about the "V" and I shorthanded my own original post, which was intended to say that the "V" thing was just a clerical error, not a big deal. And btw, since KERRY himself didn't catch the error himself, I rest my case regarding what most vets know about their own decorations.

[TahitiNut]

23. It's a LIE.

(1) The award of a Silver Star is executed by an order, not by a DD214. Anything on his DD214 is merely a summary of what was awarded while in the service; it's not the award itself. It is ONLY by virtue of specific orders that any person is permitted to wear a ribbon or medal. Kerry has provided a copy of those orders. His Silver Star is legitimate and proven, many times over.
(2) DD214's contained typos ... probably more than 20-25% of them had errors as folks were processed out of the service on return from Vietnam in those days. Kerry's DD214 has a typo. Because his Bronze Star was awarded with a Combat "V" (for Valor), the clerk probably had a brainfart while typing and just typed them both the same way. Kerry NEVER claimed, nor wore, a "V" device on his Silver Star. There is no such thing.

In summary, DD214's most frequently OMIT awards and decorations - but that no more means they're taken away than that the DD214 'awards' a non-existent medal. It's fucking meaningless!

[0rganism]

25. Good point! Here's a link to the actual Silver Star order, for the curious

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Silver_Star.pdf

[mitchum]

31. Kerry has a medal for every one of Dick Cheney's deferments

Point that out to that republican piece of shit

[TryingToWarnYou]

34. Ooooo, I like that :big evil grin: