Will Democrats ever learn?

[malatesta1137]

The DNC ran a polite, inspiring convention. The RNC kicked ass. Cheney, Miller, Giuliani, etc, one by one, all destroyed Kerry, relentlessly. Unfortunately, 50% plus of Americans admire people who kick ass, they enjoy 'leaders' who invade other countries and show the world who rules, regardless of how many innocent die in the process.

It's sad, but 50% plus of Americans are very stupid, or very evil or very greedy. I don't believe Bush is 13 or 11 points ahead, as the media is utterly corrupt, but he's ahead.

Democrats won't win until they understand they're dealing with professional criminals.

Now reports are flying that prepare the vastly stupid American population of Bin Laden's 'capture'. That's BS, he's not going to be captured, he's ALREADY in custody, has been for a long time. The election might be over. Stupidity, evil and greed win over intelligence, politeness and human spirit.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040904/D84T2OUO0.html

[Catfight]

1. "Rarely is the question asked, is our Democrats learning?"

Democrats have learned, we're educated and capable. I think you should be asking the question, "Will Americans be fooled again?"

[malatesta1137]

2. that's my point

Democrats ARE educated and capable. But the rest isn't. It's up to us to change them, but by being polite and 'inspiring', like we were in our convention, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

[Born Free]

69. It's about the "feelings"

Democrats are afraid to use "feelings", they rely on cold reality, many times long ,boring explanations. Elections are won on "feelings", just as most cars are sold on "feelings". The democrats would do better to hire a couple good car salespeople to sell their ideas to the public.
As long as democrats sit back and spend all their time discussing things to death but never invoke any feelings to inspire the people, the republicans will continue to dominate everything. As long as democrats are too afraid to speak out and show some feelings, to show Americans they are not afraid to stand up for America, the republicans will remain in control. Americans want to feel good, they want to feel safe, they want to believe everything America does is good - the people that give Americans what they want will be elected.

Democrats that want to win back America must be willing to stand up, show some feelings, be willing to do more that talk over people's heads like a bunch of spoiled elitists.

[Stew225]

5. Fool me once, shame on, uh, me,

fool me, uh, er, fool me twice, shame, uh, can't get fooled again!

[calimary]

8. No, unfortunately, the Democrats HAVEN'T learned. If our guys had,

they wouldn't be clinging to making nice, and taking the "high road." The "high road" seems to lead straight off the highest cliff.

[Eloriel]

49. Think about it, Calimary -- we don't have to give up the high road

the truth is on our side, and if we'd just speak more of the TRUTH, it would eviscerate our opposition. You can speak the truth while remaining solidly on said High Road.

[cosmicvortex20]

24. I think calling the public stupid is a bad tactic when trying to convince

them to come to our side... Besides, doesnt it inevitablly occur, in any disagreement, both sides seems to come to the conclusion that the reason the other side disagrees is because their "Stupid". Sounds just a bit condesending to me.

[billyskank]

32. That's a non-sequitur

the OP wasn't suggesting the Democrats campaign on a "the voters are stupid" platform. The original question was why is it that the Democrats think the voters will be put off by a campaign that criticises the opposition too much when the Republicans show that they do not share that view at all? And then the polls seem to confirm that the Republicans are correct.

Put another way, why does the devil get all the best tunes?

[cosmicvortex20]

34. and thats a straw man...

I didnt suggest that he was suggesting that we run a campaign based on that. Im saying that if he wants to say that here fine, but hes probably going to say it elsewhere also. He may even say it in a group of friends where there might be some undecided around. THEY wont take the idea that "anyone that disagrees with me is stupid" as a valid campaign point and just automatically turn off to our side at that point.

They will probably just not vote at all if they think both sides are a bunch of pompous partisian windbags. Once again, a condesending attitude isnt a good selling point.

[TankLV]

54. The amerikkkan sheeple are stupid. That's a fact.

No, we will never, and should never, use that TRUTH in any ad.

NO POLITICIAN would ever utter that in public.

It is the truth and can and should be said over and over again HERE!

No one on this board is advocating using this truth in any advertising - but one has to understand who they are trying to reach - and the fact that that AWOL Lying Scumbag is squatting in OUR White House, in spite of all the evidence out there - that the sheeple refuse to see in the few instances when confronted by the facts - is proof of the lack of intelligence of the amerikkkan sheeple.

[Cobalt Violet]

3. I agree .If the high road is a dead end....

Then let's take a road that will get us there!

[swag]

4. auto-delete

reading comprehension error corrected. sorry.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. How then do you think Clinton won running a positive campaign

against "Bimbo Alert" negativity? I understand your concern but I don't think it is a universal truth that negative wins and positive loses.

[malatesta1137]

10. Perot got 19% of the votes in 1992

didn't he? Clinton barely won. And he's a masterful politician, Kerry isn't.

[stavka]

11. Yeah - in 1992 the republicans lost a lot of votes to one of their kooks

sort of like us in 2000

[paulk]

42. Kerry isn't a masterful politician

thanks for repeating RNC talking points. You're a real help to the cause.

[Kitsune]

7. Oh yes, we're learning.

The problem is, we never get around to acting on what we learn.

[malatesta1137]

9. the time is NOW

[billyskank]

33. If Kerry loses

I predict there will be an amount of hand-wringing here on DU, to the effect that "I was wrong, we must stand up for what we believe in if we want to get into power again." Then, I further predict that if, a little more than three years later, some Howard Dean-style leftwing populist is running for the nomination, the very same people will be saying "but he's not electable! Elections are won from the center!" and urging everyone that some anodyne DLC-approved candidate is the optimum choice.

No need to flame me, just wait a while and we'll all see whether I'm on target or way out there. Hopefully Kerry will win and this will all be irrelevant, eh?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

44. Billy

I'd like to place my bet on your predictions. I hope we can win this time around and make it all irrelevant but I predict if things go south you have hit the nail right on the head.

[Eloriel]

58. Right. One small disagreement --

If Kerry loses, the DLC and its minions here at DU will be singing the "not centrist enough/too liberal" tune from the get-go.

Otherwise I agree completely.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

60. You are probably

correct on that one.

[Kanary]

72. You got it.

Kinda a win-win for the RW, isn't it?

If we win, we'll keep drifting to the right.

If we lose, then we'll drift to the right.

In short, they won.

Kanary

[Selwynn]

12. If the DNC changes to (R) tactics I will actively fight against them.

I am a Democrat because we are different from Republicans. If we lose that difference, that idealism, that inspirational element, then there is no reason for me to be a democrat.

The DNC speeches were reflect everything that is right about America. The RNC speeches reflect everything that is wrong in America. I'm not interesting in being a part of a group that just wants to win, and doesn't care about saying and doing what's right. I am still a democrat because the Democrats don't act like the Republicans. If and when they do, they can go to fucking hell and die.

Thanks,
Sel

[GodHelpUsAll2]

13. We're.

Already there. Been there for quite a while now. You think taking it on the chin and laying down politely to be walked on and being compliant are all just coincidence? It's the classic case of "Good Cop Bad Cop" we've all done it. Question is, do we recognize when it's being done to us?

[Selwynn]

16. We're already where?

Being right, standing for what's right, shinning a light in dark places, is more important than winning at any costs.

If democrats just want to win and don't care what they have to stand for along the way in order to win, then they can go to hell. I blame that attitude for the destruction of this country every bit as much as I blame neo-conservative politics.

There is a big difference between letting no charge go unanswered and using republican lies to turn the issues back around on them, and embracing the same politics of destruction that the republican party embraces. I am still a member of the democratic party because the party represents a better way, and stands for something that I believe to be right. Part of that stands INCLUDES a commitment to a certain kind of statesmanship and integrity in politics.

I don't just want the democratic party to win. Not at any cost. I am still a part of the party because I believe in a few things and if the party wants to sacrifice all of those things just so it can win, then its not the party for me. I recognize that the country responds to republican hate-fests, but that reflects a problem in the country. If we give in to that just so we can win, then we basically seal our doom. Instead we need to commit to continually doing what's right, even if it means we're not always the most popular, because that kind of commitment to a better way is the only thing that will save the country when it really starts falling apart due to the politics of hate and fear.

If the Democrats surrender their commitment to hope, optimism, idealism, and a certain level of human decency just so they can win - then the party no longer represents me, and they can do it without my help.

Sel

[GodHelpUsAll2]

17. I couldn't agree more

About standing your ground and sticking to principals. I too am a life long democrat and plan to continue to be one until I take my last breath. So answer me this. How much fighting have the democrats WE elected done in the last 4 years to fight for what was "right"?

Did any democratic senator side with the scores of people who were contesting the 2000 election and put their signature on the dotted line so debate could be opened on the house floor?

Other than Ted Kennedy, was there one democrat that protested the IRW and refused to blindly hand over authority?

How many of our elected Democrats have publicly screamed over the blurred explanation to the public of what happened on 9-11?

How many elected democrats questioned, let alone read the Patriot Act before voting to approve it?


Those are a few questions I have asked myself and the list goes on and on an on.

My solution to all I have pondered: If the answer to the majority of those questions is none. It's time to not only rabidly go after the Republicans, but, it's also time to clean my own house as well.

[manic expression]

18. Yes, the Democrats in Congress

and other branches of our government need to actually start to put a fight against the cons. One of the obstacles is that a lot of Democrats are pretty much Republicans in every sense of the word (Zell, Lieberman...). If we get labeled "terrorist sympathizers" or any other discouraging term because of it, we should just keep doing what we need to. We also need to be proud of being liberal and not let it be a negative term.

[Selwynn]

20. I agree with you, but this is a separate issue.

I agree that democrats in Washington are "pussies" (sorry I'm too tired right now to think of something more eloquent) in fact, in all honestly I'm sympathetic to a lot of green voters, who agrue how there aren't enough differences between the parties. I believe they make real points, however I have continued to believe that fighting to for change within the party is the best choice.

However, if we start losing even the most basic of our principled convictions in the name of "winning" I don't know that I can go along with that.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

22. I'm confused

Either I am reading your words incorrectly or I am just flat out not getting it. How is this a seperate issue? If you stick with "the party" 100% then you are in essence compromising your values and principals to win. How can you recognize the deep faults and wrongs within but also stand behind it 100% and claim to stick to your values and principals? I am not in any way inviting a flame fest. I'm just looking for clarification.

[Selwynn]

26. There is nothing contradictory about believing that...

..the best potential for change comes from within. You must not know me, or you'd know I've written on this subject about 9 billion times now.

"If you stick with "the party" 100% then you are in essence compromising your values and principals to win."

I support the democratic party because I believe that rumors of the final fatal death of its liberalism are greatly exaggerated. In other words, I desire to work from within the party along side groups such as progressive democrats for america to bring the party back towards its heritage of traditional liberalism. It is not you to judge whether or not I compromise values and principles becuase you don't know what my values and principles are. I do.

"How can you recognize the deep faults and wrongs within but also stand behind it 100% and claim to stick to your values and principals?"

I'm surpised that's even a question. Just because you recognize problems in a marriage doesn't mean you must get a divorce. Just because your son is in trouble doesn't mean you disown him. Just becuase your union doesn't make a decision the way you want doesn't mean you quite your job, leave your union and declear all unions to be evil. You could instead try to fix what's wrong in your marriage, get help for your son, and work to change minds in your union. It takes more courage and commitment to principle to do that than it does to just run away when the going gets hard.

You and I can disagree, but my committment to working within the party for change is a committment to my values and principles. For me to do anything else while I continue to believe there is hope would be hypocritical. However, if democrats decide to become exactly like republicans in rhetoric and approach - using harted and anger as tools to win, that will be a line that they cross where I cannot continue to work within for change. Everyone makes the lines where they make their last stand. For me, I'm willing to keep working with other groups within the democratic party to return to more traditionally liberal roots and a real party of opposition, but if they cross that line, I will not be able to continue to do that.

Like I said, I've written on this about a billion times, so for more information on my position on this, see the following things:

The Future of Progressivism is Not in the White House:
http://selwynn.blog-city.com/read/717350.htm

An Election Year Analogy:
http://selwynn.blog-city.com/read/753818.htm

[GodHelpUsAll2]

27. Then basically

We do agree. I am just not exactly wording the same as you are. I find that lately I stay in a state of frustration and I am irritated as hell at the Democratic party for putting me in this position in the first place. I agree whole heartedly with the core principals of the Democratic party of days gone by and I have campaigned in this election cycle as hard as I could since July of last year. But it is frustrating as hell to get out there and talk to people about why they should join me when my own party is not giving me much to defend them with. Listing the reasons to oust Republicans is easy. Defending democrats is not as easy. I have joined and worked with different organizations to take back our party and restore it to it's original glory. But I would be lying if I said it isn't just killing my soul to have to mask my true feelings about the whole subject and be passionate about what I have been left with.

[Selwynn]

29. Don't mask your true feelings.

I think the first step towards change is to be honest about what needs changed.

If you feel frustrated like you don't have a voice for what you feel, do what has become the self-therapy of the new millenium: start a blog. :) Mine allows me to have a place that talks about what I think matters most, with my priorities.

[ljm2002]

23. You are right to ask where were the Democrats...

...when the big issues were at hand: the Iraq War Resolution (I and many others sent emails and made phone calls to our Senators -- who reported that their constituents had weighed in at 100-to-1 AGAINST, yet who still voted FOR); the 9/11 coverup; the Patriot Act; etc etc just as you describe.

In fact, what we really have in our leaders is an "inside the Beltway" mentality that believes they know more than the rubes back home; that they must "go along to get along"; that they must be "strong on national security" which translates into pork barrel military projects such as Star Wars; that corporations and global trade a la the World Bank and WTO are a Good Thing; that unions are suspect; that socialism is a dirty word; it goes on and on. Basically they have ceded the debate and have presented themselves as kinder, gentler Republicans. They have caved in every area that used to be our strongholds, lost the support of the unwashed masses due to their perceived elitism and have not countered with an effective message.

So why, you ask, am I still a Democrat? Well, they're all we've got. We cannot afford for it to get worse than it is now. In fact we couldn't afford Bush's first term, it's so much worse than I ever imagined it could be... If "Anybody but Bush" is the only message we've got, well, that's a pretty compelling message if you ask me! (Yes, I know it's not our only message; although with the slanted media coverage it seems to be the only one that comes through loud and clear.)

Then we still have a lot of work to do to clean up our own house. The fact is, we no longer have an opposition party. The centrists keep allowing themselves to be pushed to the right. Sadly we're well on the road to Fascism Light, aka the Corporate State, where we are Consumers rather than Citizens and where being politically informed (much less politically active) is frowned upon.

We've got our work cut out for us, in this election and after.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

25. Don't get me wrong

I'm all about Anybody But Bush. And I will do my part to push that through on election day. However, I can not and will not just sit here and pretend that our side is the knight in shining armour here to save the country from evil. I will fight my own party and work as hard as I can to oust those that choose to do nothing and replace them with ones who have a spine. And I will work just as hard to do that as I will to run the Neo nuts out of Washington.

[manic expression]

14. Exactly right

The American people have to change for there to be progress. We should do what we think is right regardless of what others think.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

15. There in lies the problem

There has been a clear line drawn in the sand and everyone is of the belief that you have to pick a side. You are on side A or side B. Because there is no other choice. Each chooses a side and plays the game. What no one asks before they choose a side is, Is my side truly right or are they both wrong and I am simply playing with the side that appears to be less wrong? No matter how you slice it, wrong is wrong.

[malatesta1137]

19. sorry

your 'inspirational' tactics are for losers. I am not asking for a change in ideology, I am asking for us to become F*CKING COMPETITORS!

[Selwynn]

37. Why?

What's the point of competing if we don't change ideology?

There's not fucking point to winning if we become everything we hate in the process.

I'm not a democrat because I like winning - I'm a democrat becuase I believe in what's right. The country has gotten a lot more conservative so now its harder to make the support for what's right. But so fucking what. The answer is not to just cave in and all become republicans. The answer is to change hearts and minds towards what is right, not simply give in to everything that is wrong.

Basically, you're saying "I don't care about principle, I just want to win." I don't want to win, unless its because we stand up for what is right and articulate a clear alternative to the politics of hate and blame of the republicans.

[K-W]

40. Yah lets be more macho, that should solve everything!!!!!!!! EOM

[hansolsen]

59. It is not "macho" to tell the truth about George Bush. He is evil.

[K-W]

39. The difference is lies, the difference is hate. The dems are RIGHT.

How on earth could any person watch the two conventions and come out thinking that the democrats need to be more like the republicans. Good gravy.

[malatesta1137]

66. you are oblivious to the truth

negative campaigning WORKS, taking the high road only leads to the precipice.

[hansolsen]

56. There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. There is a dark and evil

side to George Bush.

He lied to take us to war.

He approved the torture at Abu Ghraib

He approved targeted assassinations, etc.

Bush is running as God's candidate. if we cede him that mantle, we lose.

George Bush is a lying, stealing, evil little bastard, and this campaign needs to tell that to the people who can't see it.

Can you see it??

[rucky]

21. If those are the values of Americans

then maybe I should seek a culture that better fits my nature

[malatesta1137]

28. NO

stay and FIGHT.

[rucky]

31. so we can be the "ass-kicking" party?

if we take the strategy that you're suggesting, what would a Democratic reign look like?

[malatesta1137]

36. I guess you're

one of those who voted for Lieberman in the primaries. By kicking ass I meant not being a coward.

[The Commie]

30. Our party won't have a back-bone untill...

...we get rid of the DLC and other republican-lites.

[50th State]

35. 3rd part is looking better all the time!

Kerry just does not get it!

[K-W]

38. ITS THE MEDIA! For goodness sake, its the media.

You are giving a completely innaccurate view of the conventions. The democrats werent polite. They issued scathing attacks on Bush and conservatism. And the RNC didnt kick ass, they spoke as republicans spreading lies and hate.

Are you arguing that democrats should become the party of hate and lies?

For the umpteenth time, it isnt the fault of the democrats that the media spins everything for the conservatives. Stop blaming the democrats for things out of thier control. The democrats are never going to become the republicans, nor do I want them to.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

43. I wonder

Did you think this way when they were completely trashing Howard Dean and pumping Kerry because he was "electable"?

[K-W]

45. Yes, what's your point?

Did I at that time think the media was horribly flawed/biased/and controlled by conservatives, yes. I dont think you are accurately portraying the media at the time. They certainly did hammer the electability issue on Dean, but Dean also got a great deal of positive publicity, and without the media buzz, he probably wouldnt have gotten as far as he did.

Regardless, I dont see the connection. The point is that the media is sensitized to spin things for the conservatives and the conservative propaganda machine is extremely powerful and connected. The democrats gave a very good convention. They critisized Bush and the Republicans, they presented arguments and evidence and plans. Then the RNC comes in, they critisize Kerry and the democrats, they present arguments(of a sort), and plans... sorta.

The difference between the two conventions wasnt so great. They both did basically the same thing, featuring prominant and popular party figures, talking up the party and the candidate, talking down the opposition.

The difference is in the content and the spin. The republicans lied, baited, spread fear and hate. And the spin is even more important. The media sums up each convention in a few words and that is what most americans will take from them.

The point is that the democrats did exactly the right thing. They ran a great convention, the speeches were good. They are critisizing Bush on all aspects of his policy and clearly discussing the differences between the parties. They arent stooping to the republicans levels of lying, baiting, and fear mongering. They also do not have the propaganda establishment, or the media manipulation abilities of the republicans. This is the problem, and calling the democrats clueless doesnt fix either problem, it just makes things worse for us.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

48. So...........

You are saying the media has changed since the primaries? They were sorta fair them but vicious now?

[K-W]

51. No, I didnt say that at all.

Perhaps if you would bother to explain your thinking I could try to figure out what you are trying to say.

The media has changed little since the primaries. I really dont know what you are trying to get at, since so far you are still hiding your point.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

53. My point

Has been very clear throughout this thread. Perhaps you should read them.

[K-W]

55. You have not made a point in our discussion.

And asking me to read every one of your posts so I can memorize your point for future referance is pretty absurd.

You have avoided, in our exchange, making your point, because you were being rhetorically clever. You have yet to actually make a point regarding my post that you responded to. All you have done is question my credibility.

[TankLV]

62. To be fair, it was the same game - but Democrat against Democrat.

So the twisted concepts by which the whore media played were a lot different - to them it was like watching a group they didn't like, that they didn't czre about, and they didn't want to see "win" eventually.

So they could be "fair" or play the odds on who they would build up or tear down to set the stage for the real fight.

You have to admit it was quite bizar.

They were definitely annoyed to have to report on the Democratic Party all the time when they preferred to cover their "dear leader".

[TankLV]

61. On the other hand, you do have a point - a big one.

And that is a major problem.

We are fighting the true fight, with one or both hands tied behind our back, fighting by the Marques of Queensbury rules when the opposition is fighting dirty and in the gutter.

I and many others just believe that if the rules have been changed in the fight, one must adapt and play by the rules in play at the time, or one will lose.

Sort of like if we start out playing baseball, and the other team switches to football, without any complaints by the umpires and crowed watching, we had better start playing football, or we're never going to win.

[K-W]

64. Right, but that doesnt work.

We cant play like them. It isnt like we can just get in the gutter with them.

Their methods of fighting work because of who they are. They have wealth, they have corporations. They can afford massive propaganda establishments easily. They have enough money to fund a large political machine. They were able to take over the media.

We simply dont have the option of trying to become like them. We do however have to adapt.

We must use the things that we have that they do not and the things that we can do better than them. We have the truth, which is a powerful weapon, but the truth can only take you so far. We need to organize. We need to use grassroots methods to battle the influence of the corporations and thier money.

The democratic party is not in a position to do anything. Change doesnt begin with parties. The republican party didnt create the conservative movement, the conservative movement created the modern republican party. Just the same, the democratic party will never create a revived liberal movement, but it can certainly be shaped by such a movement if we are successful in creating it.

We must stop thinking the democratic party is more than it is. We must stop thinking that it is an ideological organization, it is not, it is simply a political party. An organization that anyone can use to get political power in this country. Its time we stopped whining at it, and started learning how to use it.

[bo44]

41. Agreed Bush is the gangster thug president

You have pretty much described the voters in my town. What's funny is that after selling dope, jacking rail cars and port shipments, or any other illegal hustle many of these clownish wise guys straighten, up find Jesus, join the PromiseKeepers and attempt to strong arm the rest of the community into playing along. It does not help that the richest punk in town fits this description, donates huge piles of cash the GOP, and has hosted dinner for Ronnie, Poppy, Snotwad, Gropenator and who has donated at least five million bucks to gop 527s.

[Shopaholic]

46. Democrats are the better party and we do take the high ground

but let's separate the way we govern with the way we run our races. We will never have the chance to govern again if we can't win another race! And to win that race, we're going to have to get down and dirty and anyone who thinks otherwise has got their head in the sand. We've got a media who's against us. They are not going to cover us until we go for the throat--until we make news and news to them is the "If it bleeds, it leads" philosophy. Talking about philosophy and hope aren't going to cut it. And if we can't get our message out and the Repugs continue to attack, then they will bury us. We are fighting for our lives here and some of you are still talking about peace, and love, and honor, and integrity? As someone said earlier, following the high ground has just led us off a cliff. Am I crazy about the idea? No. Do I think we need to attack and get tough in order to win? Damn straight, I do! Ideals are great, ideals are wonderful and they are what makes our party unique, but sometimes, reality has a way of running over ideals and nearly 1,000 dead Americans in Iraq, a corrupt administration, and a pathetic economy have been quite enough reality for me, thank you. Ideals be damned, I want to fucking win! Then we can lead by example and be what we all-compassionate, idealistic, and effective leaders. But we won't ever have that chance if we don't win this election. And to win--we need to kick ass--and not our own.

[K-W]

47. Its just not that simple.

When democrats go for the throat, the talking heads marginalize them as crazy and wakko. When democrats dont speak loud they are ignored.

It isnt just that democrats arent yelling loud enough, it is that the media is horribly biased against them in all ways. We need to take back our country, we need to fight to battle the media, not blame the democrats for being oppressed by it.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

50. Oppressed by the media

is one thing. Rolling over for the RNC is quite another. Bush makes excuses for all of his scew ups and everyone here is outraged. And it is completely justified. However, whenever the democrats screw up the excuses start flying fast and furious. I for one admire people who can admit mistake and move to improve.

[K-W]

52. There is a difference between screwing up and rolling over.

Are the democrats perfect? Of course not. Do they make tactical bad decisions on a fairly regular basis, of course.

That isnt what you and others are suggesting. You are suggesting that the democrats are somehow cowards or lap dogs or some other such rediculous villianization.

Now I suppose it makes it intellecutally easier to just blame the democrats, but id rather risk nuance and figure out what is actually going on in politics. But god forbid we look for the causes of our problems (or excuses as you so nicely dismiss it).

[GodHelpUsAll2]

57. I encourage you

to continue looking for the cause of the problems. And continue to take the superior attitude while you are on your quest. Make the case for it to be the fault of someone or something else. I hope you find what you are looking for I truely do. Some of the hardest things in the world to locate are the things that are hidden in right in front of us.

[K-W]

63. It isnt a quest, its called reason.

We both see the same actions. Democrats never seem to respond. Everything they say gets turned around on them. They seem to be almost invisible.

From a distance it seems very easy to lable them as cowards, as lap dogs, as those who have rolled over. The problem is, that when you look a little bit closer you see that the democrats dont exist in a vacuum. Starting at the beginning of the last century, liberals have been purged/marginalized/depowered in our country. In the meantime, the aristocracy of our country has tied up almost every single information dessimination tool in our society through corporations. The Reagan revolution began and the democrats still havent fully realized what hit them. We saw the new republican party, that had no positive ideology, that wanted nothing above gaining power, a coalition of groups, with nothing in common but the bloodthirsty quest for power. They have an extremely organized and well funded machine, and theyve been using it to destroy labor, liberalism, and freedom.

You cant possibly talk about the democrats without first aknowledging the menace of the modern republican party and conservative movement. The right wing formed as a reaction to liberalism, socialism, and communism. And it has been fighting all along to destroy it.

I beg of you to focus on real substantive issues. Go ahead and critisize the democrats, for making the wrong decisions, but only one group benefits from endless vague criticisms of the democratic party, and that group is republicans.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

65. I was wondering how long

It would take for that one to be pulled out of the hat. The standard "You are with us or against us" line. You are only helping the republicans, shhhh you can't voice any descent it's not our fault, you will only benefit the other side. Shhhhhh get in line behind us we can't have you questioning it looks bad for us. Forgive me, but that is the biggest bullshit reply. If we as democrats don't question, and light a fire under the asses of our elected democratic officials then who prey tell do you suppose will? The republicans? The media? I think not. Do I agree the media is a bunch of Republican conformists that should all be fired on the spot? Yes I do! Do I think the Neo nuts should be completely outcast from any political position? Yes I do! Do I also think the democratic officials that for years have idly stood by and allowed this to get as far gone as it has without so much as risking a hangnail be also held accountable? Yes I do. I am sick and tired of hearing the standard old excuses. The neo nuts nor the media came into Washington at gun point and forced all the democrats to vote with them. We, as democrats have allowed this to get as far as it has. We need to take a long hard look at just how it is that we got in this mess in the first place then take a no prisoners attitude and clean house.

[malatesta1137]

67. Martin Luther King

took the superior road and ended up with a bullet in his head.

Liberals have to wake up to the reality that these criminals are capable of ANYTHING and we need to get down to their levels if we EVER want to win again.

[brava]

70. "Beware in fighting monstors that you don't become one" - Nietzsche (nt)

[malatesta1137]

71. thanks to Nietzsche

Hitler came up with his Superman theories. Becoming a competitor does not mean becoming a Repugnant.

[Sailorman]

68. Bush doesn't have a chance

No one is going to fall for that Charade