Ask Your Fundie Relatives/Friends This Question

[Yavin4]

Would Jesus ever start a war, esp. with a nation that has never attacked us? And, if they say yes, then tell them that they don't know anything about Jesus nor anything that he preaches, and if they still argue with you, challenge them to show you where Jesus was in favor of war.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. Good source for liberal Christians dealing with fundamentalists

A book I picked up today that's on sale in our church's bookstore:The Things I Learned Wrong from a Conservative Church by John Killinger. He came from a fundamentalist background and gradually moved to more liberal views as his academic career progressed.

With chapters on topics such as "Jesus is the Only Way to God" and "Faith is Truer than Science," he points out the ways in which these beliefs aren't even compatible with a mature understanding of the Bible.

[Perky]

21. Hold it! I object

It is possible to be a liberal and a fundie at the same time. I am a liberal, mildly evangelical, and believe unlitimately ihn the inerrancy of Scripture. Now my interpretation of scripture myab be different than many fundies. But I will debate them on any point they want to chat about.


Tjhe difference is that the pharisees on the right fail to recognize that the moral objections they reaise about modern culture while based on moral standards the Bible espouses. ONLY apply to those who are christia. We have no right to judge the world. We do have thr right to judge fellow believers.

I just wish more Christians would so just that!

[El Supremo]

2. It would be easier to argue whether Iraq is a "Just War."

Because they will come back and say that John Kerry fought in a war and killed about 20 of the enemy.

http://www.monksofadoration.org/justwar.html

[wuushew]

4. But doesn't the Bible also command obidience of civil authorities?

Which places the blame squarely on LBJ, the Whizkids, Nixon etc.

Considering that a draft was in place Kerry prevented the involuntary servitude and possible death of another American who would have been there anyway.

[salinen]

3. You haven't learned this yet

arguing with fundies actually produces another fundy.

[brainshrub]

5. Amen!

Fundies get sexual satisfaction when they think they are being persecuted.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. Or a really bad headache. nt

[trotsky]

7. "I come not to bring peace but a sword."

Thing is, just about anything you want to justify, you can find something in the bible to do it. Slavery? Yup. Racism? Yes. Sexism? Yes. Equality of the sexes and races? Oh yeah, even that.

Plenty of verses where Jesus talks about violence or engages in it. (Throwing out the money changers from the temple is kind of the catch-all for fundies wishing to justify violence.)

In other words, don't waste your time.

[merh]

8. Actually, everything you want to justify can be found in the bible if

you take the text out of context and do not read and understand the entire chapter. For example, the section of the bible where fundies claim it states woman should be subservant to men. The couple of lines of text from the Bible are found in Ephesians. As you can see, the chapter begins with a direction to all, be imitators of God ... and live a life of love. Later on in this chapter are the often quoted verses about women being subservant to their husbands (verses quoted alone, out of context, not in the whole.) Even those versuses if read in their entirety have the same meaning, to love as Christ loved, unconditionally and to love each other as we love ourselves.

Ephesians
Chapter 5
1 So be imitators of God, as beloved children,
2 and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.
3 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,
4 no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.
5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.
7 So do not be associated with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,
9 for light produces every kind of goodness and righteousness and truth.
10 Try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them,
12 for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret;
13 but everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
14 for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore, it says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light."
15 Watch carefully then how you live, not as foolish persons but as wise,
16 making the most of the opportunity, because the days are evil.
17 Therefore, do not continue in ignorance, but try to understand what is the will of the Lord.
18 And do not get drunk on wine, in which lies debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
19 addressing one another (in) psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing to the Lord in your hearts,
20 giving thanks always and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.
21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

=================================

Actually, the fundies should take notice of:
5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Kinda looks like greed is a big no no in the bible and a certain leader who claims to be on God's mission could fall into the idolater category. :shrug: IMHO fundies fail to read and comprehend the entire bible and its message, which is unconditional love, they just hit on the "talking points" as if they read the cliff note version.

[trotsky]

13. And if it were that simple, there would be no more fundies.

C'mon, for every passage you bring up they'll be at the ready with one countering it. If you really want to help, don't bother posting this on a liberal message board - take it down to your local fundie right-wing church and start arguing with them. Spread the "true" Christian message, and counter the hate & bigotry your religion can sometimes inspire.

[merh]

14. I post it so other's can use it and I do try to enlighten others who

have been taught to take bible text out of context by explaining to them that they are doing so and missing the whole message of the chapter and thus the true, simiple message of the bible. You could try to practice a little loving and patience too!

I can post what I like, as I do so in the hopes that others will be able to use it when conversing with fundies.

[trotsky]

15. I would have a lot more loving and patience if

"good" Christians like you would exert more influence over those who have corrupted the message of your religion, and who seek to wield the power of government to enforce their views on everyone else.

In other words, don't attack me, attack the fundies.

[merh]

16. Back at ya, don't attack me, attack the fundies...

I do my part in trying to educate the misinformed. YOu are the one that attacked me first, so follow your own advice, Don't attack me, attack the fundies.

[trotsky]

18. Um, you replied to me first.

And for the record, you were the first to unleash anything resembling an "attack," for telling me "to practice a little loving and patience."

Nothing that I, as a non-believer, can say will do one iota of good on a fundie, so it doesn't do much good for me to try now does it? But you've at least got the religious footing.

[merh]

19. uhmm, no - you replied to me!

trotsky (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-30-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #8

13. And if it were that simple, there would be no more fundies.


C'mon, for every passage you bring up they'll be at the ready with one countering it. If you really want to help, don't bother posting this on a liberal message board - take it down to your local fundie right-wing church and start arguing with them. Spread the "true" Christian message, and counter the hate & bigotry your religion can sometimes inspire.

[trotsky]

20. Err.... alrighty then.

When I look at the thread structure, I see your post number 8 coming in response to my post number 7, which was responding to the initial post (not written by you).

But if you see something different, and if you see an "attack" in what I wrote, you're entitled to that viewpoint I guess. :eyes:

[leesa]

11. Yup. That's the one that is immediately thrown in your face.

The scribes and ancient leaders who compiled that book could have used a good editor.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. He does advise that people can keep their swords to protect themselves

Cons tend to use that, plus scads of references in the OT to God pushing His people to make war on so-and-so, to show that God is "on their side" when it comes to "defense".

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[UdoKier]

10. I don't have fundie friends or relatives.

I have a couple of repug greedheads, but no fundies.

Thank Koresh.

[leesa]

12. You're lucky. I have 5 brothers who are Fundies, some extreme, some

less so. Bush was chosen by God, the Rapture, etc...It's been a living nightmare and has practically destroyed our family with all its meanness and selfishness.

[seabeyond]

17. wow i hear you. i am just so into that. gonna start with..........

yup