Forget outsourcing.There is more 'tectonic shifts' headed our way.

[CanIgonow]

Today's NYT has an article by Jane Perlez titled THROUGOUT ASIA BEIJING's STAR IS ON THE ASCENDANT.This article says how the entire continent of Asia is now becoming closely tied economically to what happens in China.In the process, the US is losing its primacy with countries like Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia,Australia, Thailand, Singapore and others.This economic dominance will be follwoed by military power and the ability to influence events throughout Asia.

This article should also be read along with another one in the NYT about the Revolution in Education sweeping India's primary and Secondary schools that promises to turn India into a powerhouse in Technology,Medicine,BioEngineering and other disciplines.Because this revolution comes after India has established itself as a powerhouse at the College and Graduate level work,it promises to produce steady stream of English speaking engineers, scientists, Doctors who will work for a fraction of the wages prevailing in the West.No one will be able to ignore this vast pool of scientific and engieering talent available at the lowest wages in the world.The artcle was authored by Amy Waldman.

One shudders to think what is going to happen to our children if they have to compete with graduates with equivalent skills who would be willing to work for a fraction of our wage demands.And even worse, if these graduates from India were allowed to work in the US on the L type visas at Indian wages.

[Gman]

1. If we won't fund education in order to compete with this

we'll eventually be relegated to being second then eventually third world country by the end of this century.

[lanparty]

19. It's not an education issue ...

... it's a standard of living issue. Indians will accept less.

If the countries of the West expect to maintain our ways of life, we will have to build walls between ourselves and these countries that drive their children like beasts while indulging in such a strong semi-aristocratic society.

We have to be as INDEPENDENT as possible. We have to establish strong tariffs and bring our manufacturing base back home.

Slowly but surely, the international corporation is weakening America by exporting our ability to stand on our own two feet. Think about it. All our manufacturing is being sent into China and Southeast Asia. All of these countries are at the doorstep of that great facist state of China. The great dragon of the east.

Do you think for a second we could defend our manufacturing base against an onslaught from the Red Army???? They 10x the population and would gladly throw them into a phalanx with the satisfaction that each dead man is one less mouth to feed and a step towards alleviating the gross overpopulation of China.

When all our manufacturing is under the thumb of facist China, the corporations will have what they want. When the people wake up, it will be too late. We will have to accept a mixture of feudalism and facism or risk a death struggle that will make WW2 look like a walk in the park.

WTO is nothing short of a demon. It is the international realization of Straussian ideas that the Bush family attempted to vest in Hitler and Moussalini. It is the final stroke that will make democracy irrelevant and unable to grapple with the forces of the nationless corporate feudal state.

The best example of this is Halliburton. Here we see another effort to wrest the capabilities of defense away from national forces and place them into the hands of international mercinary estates who profit from warfare. How much of our military would become disfunctional without these feudal estates of greed. Could we function if Halliburton, Titan and the other Merc estates decided to side with the WTO instead of Democracy???

Yes, and of course we need to fund education. We also need to reinstall DISCIPLINE in our education corridors so that they are no longer run by the WORST parents with the WORST kids who threaten the most lawsuits. The teachers needs to be placed in charge of their classrooms. Kids who cannot get along need to be removed to more suitable education environments (boot camps) until they learn their lessons. The idiocy of a few should not interfere with the learning of the whole.

No, I am truly afraid for the future of my nation. I think that China has great possibility to be a Democratic nation. But we are putting way too much temptation at their doorstep. It will bring out the dragon in China.

[KT2000]

25. WWIII - US defeated w/o a single shot

Jeez - I am glad to see someone else discuss this issue.

To corporate America - the US needs some downsizing - as in the elimination of the middle class. The new middle class will come from Asia, centered in China. This will be the new consumer base - no longer America.
We are in effect giving them our manufacturing and technology base, that will be nationalized when the time is right.

I guess that education will help - but those who are serving us up to China now come from our supposed best institutions. Maybe studying the history of China should be required of all.
Maybe then these fools would understand that China has never been subservient and unlike America, will not quake in their boots over threats from corporations. They will just kick their sorry asses out!

[lanparty]

60. You are right on one point ...

...

Once the manufacturing is COMPLETELY under China's heel, they will no longer have a need for the WASP CEO class that now dominates corporate culture. THAT will be the end of the Anglo empire.

It will be no different from the fall of Rome. The Romans chose to buy off the barbarians instead of fighting them. That provided a short term gain, but it strengthened the barbarians while weakening the Romans.

I have no illusion that the Chinese are "barbarians". I would like to see China develop into a peaceful, modern democracy. But we are only feeding the predators of China. There is blood in the water and that will bring out the sharks. With all the wests manufacturing located in Indo-China, how could they resist?????

[Gman]

50. I respectfully disagree

I see this as China and India having an increasing advantage over the US due to their increasingly better educated workfore. The Indo-Chinese workforces have an increasing advantage over America because of being 1) increasingly better educated to do the high tech jobs and 2) being willing to work for much less than smilarly educated Americans. If America is going to compete and win those jobs that are migrating overseas we must have a workforce that is much better educated and is therefore able to do the work at a higher price but more efficiently therefore making it cost effective to have the jobs in the U.S.

Unfortunately, the way things are now, there is a desire to have a small elite class and a larger undereducated and underemployed working class. No one in the Bush admnistration has any deisire to promote serious education programs that will make Americans better able to compete for those jobs. First off, to better educate Americans would drain entirely too much money away from Iraq and the coming Iran war. Secondly, the system is working very well right now for business to ship those jobs overseas so there is currently no incecntive to work on keeping those jobs in America.

I see this as, right, wrong or indifferently, WTO and other pacts are a fact of life. Therefore America must have a plan to have its people equipped to do these jobs that are migrating overseas. We have, in effect, opened up free trade in order to be able to sell our stuff overseas. However, all we have really done is set the stage for an increasing trade deficit and with little serious thought to how we will compete by providing consumers with skills that will permit them to have jobs of sufficient quality to have purchasing power.

[lanparty]

59. Competition is a red herring ...

...

We aren't competing ... we are SELLING OUT!!!! THAT is the problem.

They are leaching off our economies and we let them. What markets are their for IT in China and India??? Yes, that market is growing, but it is fueld by money from the US.

You must realize this. The slaves of the past were denied education for fear they would revolt. The slaves of the FUTURE will be the most highly educated. They will ameliorate the need for a middle class that can bargain for it's own well being. Education will be driven by whips the same way a mule would. And they will be owned by feudal corporate lords owing no allegiance to state or nation. An educated slave is just plane more valuable.

China is a nation of slaves. They are enslaved to their government with no electoral rights to choose their leaders whatsoever. Comrade is simply slave by a different name.

[JCRobinhood]

68. Of course we're competing...

It's no different than when jobs moved to the non-union South from the North for cheaper wages. The only problem now, is that the whole of the country is becoming more & more non-union, but it's still not enough when your CEO knows damn well that instead of paying a middle-class or even a living wage in the US, he can pay a few cents a day per employee in a third world country. Furthermore, there are much more "business friendly" locations throughout the world. These are the countries that don't give a rat's ass about environmental safety or worker rights/safety. These also translate into dangerous products coming straight back into the ol' USofA. That's pretty scary, right? Well it's going to get much worse. Because these nifty little computers we're plugging away on right now are going to be the next airliners of the next 9/11. These tech jobs, including some federal government (security-related) tech jobs are also going to some very, VERY unstable & US-hostile countries. You think they're pissed at the US now, wait 'til they meet our CEO's who are making 200-300% more per year than the average US worker, much less the workers in these other countries. If you want to really make a security & economic impact in the US, then you need to do 2 things. 1) Demand REAL campaign finance reforms and 2) Demand some real TEETH in the Sarbanes-Oxley and other corporate legislation/regulation.

[lanparty]

79. You don't get my point ...

...

They talk about America having to "compete" in a global economy. But we aren't competing.

Competing means MY team against YOUR team. But THEIR form of competition is intermingling the cheapest scraps from ALL the teams and producing the cheapest goods possible.

THEIR version of competition also throws out any rules. Labor, environmental, health, there are NO RULES in their game. It is like having an NBA match where the players shoot each other with guns.

This is what I mean by competition being a red herring. They don't WANT us to compete as a nation. They don't WANT America to stand on it's own two feet. They want us to throw in the towel and lower our standards of living.

[Gman]

82. Money seeks the place it gets the best return on investment

just as water seeks its level. One of the best return on investment right now is in overseas work forces and manufacturing. Those work forces have the same qualities as US workers and they are willing to work for less. So what does a company that has a responsibility to its shareholders do when confronted with a decision to use workers in the US at $15/hour or overseas workers that are just as trained and capable and willing to work for $2/hour (or something)? The profit motive, which has no conscience whatsoever, compels the corporation to choose the overseas workers in order to fulfill its responsibility to its shareholders to maximize the return on their investment.

When I say "compete", it means a comparison is made of the education and skills and the cost of that complete skill set of American workers to the skill sets and costs of skills sets of overseas workers. Then a choice is made by the corporation based on the best skill set needed to perform the task for the lowest price.

Again, in order to tip the advantage in this comparison to American workers, the American workers must be better educated and able to perform the needed skills in a manner that is so efficient that the incremental labor cost (the cost of the labor to produce one more unit) of the good manufactured or service performed is equal to or lower than the cost of performing the work overseas. Included in that type of budgeting issue is all the cost of closing the US operation and the total cost of opening the new overseas operation. Usually the total cost of moving the operation must be recovered within a certain reasonable period of time (12-24 months or so) in order for the move to be considered worth it.

If American workers are paid more but are able to perform the work in a more cost efficient manner than the overseas workers (i.e. the incremental labor cost per unit is equal to or less than the incremental cost of a foreign worker) the work will stay here. I believe this can only be achieved by a highly educated workforce using increasingly sophisticated manufacturing techniques that drive total incremental costs down. Keep in mind here that a superiorly educated American engineers are needed to develop those increasingly sophisticated manufacturing techniques.

There are some jobs such as call center jobs where the scenario I describe above cannot apply. Jobs where all you do is recite canned scripts or answer questions based on some troubleshooting flow chart can be done anywhere that people are literate enough to do the work. Service jobs such as these are going to be lost for good unless or until some external force, (Congress) forces the companies to bring the work back home. That would be a completely anti-free market thing to do (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but now we're getting into competing political ideologies. But the point is that forcing that work back home is something that would have to be done because the budgeting equation will never work in favor of Americans for this type of work.

As a practical matter, this just flat ain't going to happen anytime soon. There are too many other things competing for those government dollars that could go to education such as the defense industry making their money off of Iraq, soon Iran, etc. (One could probably study whether money going to the defense industry means that the money has found its best return on investment for those in a position to influence the money being pushed into the defense industry.)

[lanparty]

83. BETTER EDUCATED DOESN'T MATTER ...

We have TONS of well educated people unemployed. There jobs were shipped overseas to people who actually can't do it as well, but they'll do it a LOT cheaper.

This shit is NOT inevitable. It is a CHOICE. We as a nation have CHOSEN to send our jobs overseas. They could be easily recovered with the proper import tariffs and protection not of NATIONS but of standards of living.

We DO need frameworks for international trade agreements. The framework needs to be QUALITY OF LIFE. Those nations with high standards for quality of life (labor, environmental, child welfare, etc...) would trade on an equal basis with each other with little barriers. Those that lack these standards would face stiff tariffs on a graduated scale.

This is the HUMANE thing to do as countries would reform their policies in order to move up the trade latter and get access to foreign markets. They would have an INCENTIVE to reform the same way South Africa had an incentive to end apartheid.

If those countries want to form an axis of human degredation, let them. But we will not be a party to it. We won't participate in it. And we WILL NOT degredate ourselves in an effort to complete with slave labor.

TRADING with slave labor only enslaves your own person. We fought a fucking civil war over this. And I would think we would learn this lesson by now. A free man cannot trade on equal terms with a slave-master. He only trades away his own freedom.

[Gman]

85. I don't know if you realize it

but you're agreeing with my position when you say there are "We have TONS of well educated people unemployed. There jobs were shipped overseas to people who actually can't do it as well, but they'll do it a LOT cheaper." They may not be as well educated to do the jobs that have been shipped over there, but they are capable (and/or trainable for the jobs that don't require as high a skills set) This makes the labor cost contained in the marginal cost of the good or service cheaper which means a faster payback, or net present value of your plan or whatever you decide to use.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the need to keep the jobs here. My concern is the government right now is content to keep people stupid and unskilled. And, the government right now shows no desire to fully employ the very educated un- and underemployed because the government is owned, lock stock and barrel, by business and there are other things competing for those dollars that bring a higher rate of return than education and job training.

If we are not able to compete and win those jobs back, then yes, "artificial" means other than free market solutions may be in order such as congressional action. I personally prefer a free market approach because that can lend a lot more permanancy rather than be subject to the whims of who is in the WH or controls Congress. Bill Clinton knew this when he pushed for tax incentives for job training and investments in new technology rather than tax breaks. Clinton made business "earn" their tax break. In the long run that's a much more solid plan.

[girl gone mad]

77. It is an education issue.

In my upper level physics classes, 60% of the students were Chinese or Indian. India and China value success in math and science the way America values success in sports.

America still has an advantage, but more recently that advantage is at least in part thanks to the pool of talent we have managed to lure here from foreign countries.

We are putting creationism back in textbooks, pouring money into junk science projects like NMD and placing restrictions on one of the most promising new fields of research. How can we hope to compete in the future if current trends continue?

[daveskilt]

2. children nothing - try being a recent MBA grad today

3 years ago the graduating class from my school (UGA - a top 50) average salary 3 months after graduation - $84k

This year average salary 3 months from graduation for the 40% with jobs - $46k

where did the jobs go? to grads in india (some from my class) willing to work for a fraction of the cost.

[CanIgonow]

9. I know that Harvard B School has a campus at the Indian

Institute of Management producing top tier management graduates several of whom have become CEOs at Corporations like Pepsi and others.Most of these graduates, however, will wind up in management positions at US corporations in India or Indian corporations drawing compensations that will be about 10% of what a typical MBA makes over here.This is why I consider the L type visa a trojan horse because it allows transfer of similarly skilled people from one part fo a corporation to another and circumvent wage and other laws in the US.Isn't globalization grand?

[Zookeeper]

27. And the corporations love highly skilled immigrants...

because American tax dollars weren't used to educate them. This is a group of workers whose own countries invested in them; then they move their skills to the U.S.

[JCRobinhood]

69. Focus your anger!

Don't play into their hands by getting mad at workers in other countries. Their just trying to get by like us. Get mad at the CEO's who save $, not by capping their own salaries, but by capping or cutting yours.

[CanIgonow]

72. Well said, JCR

[daveskilt]

78. hey I'm on that team already

more power to guys like saikat, mugur, and Feng who I went to school with and went back to their countries to make things better their with the skills they got here.

The CEO's are only partly to blame - I blame bush for tax laws that allow tax deferments for scumbag CEO's who exploit smart guys like saikat, mugur and feng in other countries by paying less and outsourcing my job.

also I blame bush every time he talks about the economy getting better - why then did my graduating MBA class of 04 end up with most grads unemployed still after 3 months and most of the rest with pay cuts on the jobs they had BEFORE going back to school for the MBA. turned a corner alright - 180 from where bill clinton had us heading.

[xray s]

3. the white collar world will learn what the blue collar world already knows

The folks who have supported the Republicans since 1980 are about to reap the fruits of their folly. Welcome to the power of the almighty and holy Invisable Hand.

They didn't care when the jobs being outsourced involved labor and sweat. Well, if the cheap labor shoe fits, wear it. And don't cry to me when you get a foot full of blisters.

[susanna]

12. I'll second that.

That's exactly what's happening in the automotive sector. A lot of white collar folks are now trying to form unions and are griping about the loss of jobs. These were the same folks that couldn't care less when it was happening to the manufacturing sector.

I can't say I have any sympathy. Though I'm one of the white collar folks for the time being, I've known what is coming for a while. I find it astounding the others are at all surprised!

[xray s]

13. I know its wrong to generalize but...

...my experience in corporate America is the manager class is solid GOP, and the people below them go GOP to suck up to their bosses. Anti-labor. Pro-"free trade". Pro-deregulation.

I hate to see anyone lose a job, but in this case, they have brought it on themselves.

[CanIgonow]

Last week I was talking to a friend of mine in Michigan who is one

of the white collar guys you are talking about.Ten years ago, he was all negative about how our hourly workers are lazy and ask for too much money and so on.His mood was very different last week.He is afraid that his job will be shipped out to India.After some of this talk, I said somewhat facetiously that "wait until the Big Three import all their cars from China and Walmart starts selling these cars at cut rate prices".He seemed stuned.He said if you have thought about it, I am sure someone at our corporate planning department has also thought about it!

[democratreformed]

40. Sam's Club (Wal-Mart) is having a big car sale this weekend.

I heard ads on the radio.

[Old and In the Way]

48. I saw it happening in the late 70s.

GE began the trend from my perspective with building their large industrial motors in Mexico. TVs were another of the consumer items that went.

We stop buying from China, they stop buying our debt. Then what happens? Our dollar becomes worth less....a lot less. The selection of Bush will go down as the worst possible thing to happen to this country. Republican greed and the decision to take down our $450BB surplus to a a $500BB deficit leaves future Presidents with no options to reprime our economy.

[lanparty]

20. Lets not forget ...

... that Clinton was all for this. On the whole, I thought he was a good president. But WTO and NAFTA has turned out to be a neo-con plot wrapped in liberal rhetoric.

This is precisely the point of Ralph Nader. And perhaps his persistent candidacy is because he sees this and is trying desparately to get the Democrats to wake up to the immense peril facing our nation.

BTW, I am ashamed of myself. I thought I was SO SMART for becoming a programmer. I bought the BS line about us being an "information economy". These are precisely the jobs being outsourced right now. Now they're telling us we need to train for the "jobs of the future". We need to train for bio-tech.

Yeah, my ass. In 7 years it will be the same fucking story. The bio-tech engineers will be waiting online to get jobs at the bookstore with high school graduates just like the programmers.

You wait and see. If Bush wins this time around, the minimum wage will be abolished within three years. This will be THEIR answer to outsourcing. Debase our own people enough so we can "compete" with poeple working for pennies an hour.

[CanIgonow]

21. No you may already be too late about biotech.

There are well over 1000 startups in biotech in India who are involved in contract research for big biotech outfits like Amgen,Novartis,Genentech etc.The barndoor is already open and there will be no way for our children to get into what was once a promising field.

[JCRobinhood]

73. Again I say, campaign finance!

If you want to put a halt to this, force real campaign finance reform. Or we won't be able to afford all the nice new pills the pharmaceuticals our pals in India are coming up with. The Pharma-lobby has locked out drugs from all other countries and plays a shell game with patents to keep generics out of the picture. If our congress was beholden to them, then this wouldn't be an issue.

[Dogmudgeon]

76. Why?

Other than to promote Ralph Nader, who is seeking to "punish" us for our apostasy.

Bill Clinton ushered in eight years of prosperity because he reversed twelve years of international mistrust of the USA. Bush has completely undone that -- I think it took him about six months after 9-11.

No matter what Clinton did or didn't do, the world is becoming one large company town. And if an energy crisis and a climate crisis kick in, all bets are off. The world will change involuntarily, unpleasantly, and it won't be as a result of the workers throwing off their chains.

--bkl

[JCRobinhood]

70. Amen!

[DemBones DemBones]

4. The way things are going, I am not too unhappy that

I'm the only one of my peer group with no grandchildren. I never thought it would come to that but it has. Thanks, Dubya!

:grr: :cry:

[Disturbed]

8. Wealthy Right Wingers don't care.

It's just fine with them that Amerika is heading towards 3rd World economic status. The "New World Order" is that the US will be level with 3rd rate countries. The rich will become richer and the Middle Class poorer, the Working Class barely hanging in and the Poor dying in great numbers. The rich will garrison themselves in gated communities or walled properties and US Corps. will become Intl. owing nothing to Amerika. Amerika will become a Corporate State with a Govt. that is 100% Fascist and a Police State.

Will the people revolt? Perhaps a few would but there will be centers for them to be re-educated.

[CanIgonow]

11. Brave New World indeed!

[JCRobinhood]

74. It's ok, there's always the gun lobby!

Not that I propose violence AT ALL. I very much against it. But from a historical point of view, it would be funny (in few hundred years) to see the pro-assault rifle & new-con NRA legislation bite 'em in the butt with a full-blown and televised revolution. I'll be in the bar with Ben Franklin - guns scare me you know.

[Old and In the Way]

5. I think India and China account for 1/3 of the world's population.

Unless we get a new vision for this country's future, I do think our standard of living will fall. I'm not sure we can throw up a wall around our economy, we are too integrated and dependent on low cost labor to sustain our consumer oriented society.

I do think Kerry needs to push a new national security/energy policy that will also stimulate jobs here. Restructuring our energy grid towards renewable, alternative sources of energy could produce the same kind of job/economic growth that we saw in the 90s.

[CanIgonow]

10. One of the things that we need to do and do it fast is downsize our

bloated military and stop throwing money and people at producing military hardware and redirect our people toward productive enterprises.That alone would ensure there is sufficient money and resources released to deal with the needs of people in education, healthcare,infrastructure and others.

[BeFree]

14. Which contradicts PNAC, ya know?

PNAC is one way of countering the devolution of American power. Imo, it is the wrong way, but it is the way in which America is moving. Too many people support the bloated military which keeps the overseas markets safe to do business. Pirates, and all that, eh?

PNAC will lead to total war and we will have a hard time beating back it's forward motion, but that is the first step.

We can save America, but I get the feeling we should have started yesterday.

[Old and In the Way]

15. We spend $400BB on defense....China spends about $20BB

At this rate in 20 years, we'll be protecting a 3rd world bankrupt banana republic that no one will have any interest in attacking.

I do hope that Kerry restructures our defense bigtime....we need to demilitarize our country and start re-investing in our citizens. Kerry can even blame it on Bush....Republican fiscal policy has forced us to make a choice on budget priorities.

[CanIgonow]

16. If you think of all the assets our indusry, agriculture and ecnomic aid

to other countriesas seed corn and the way this administration through its tax cuts and spending policies on wars,military hardware and saber rattling with PNAC as eating the seed corn you gt an idea of the fix we are in.No wonder we don't have the money to pay our teachers,firemen,police and other essential service providers.Of course we do not have money to pay for the health care of our elderly,poor and handicapped people.Our politicians who readily vote for the defense budgets that are bankrupting us and raise innumerable objections to people's needs are a disgrace. Enough said.

[lanparty]

23. OH yes they will ...

Iraq is a desert, yet we invaded. They had a precious commodity.

Well guess what, with world population growing, we may have the GREATEST commodity of all .... WATER!!!!!!

That would be worth invading for. Giant tanker loads of Great Lakes water could be shipped to China, India and the middle east. Why buy it when you can just take it?????

[CanIgonow]

31. In fact, our best hope may lie in Bush bankrupting our country

with his never ending wars on just about everybody on earth.Then,may be our people will wake up and see just how much blood and money has been wasted chasing mirages about being the top dog of the earth while countries like India and China with far less resources have outstripped us by investing in their people's education and health.

[JCRobinhood]

75. I do believe you're right!

Maybe if we finally hit rock bottom, we'll perform an "intervention" on ourselves! Civil Liberties, gun control, education, health care, economics, church v. state... you name it!

[teryang]

34. Agree in spirit, but it's 500 billion for FY 2005...

...and it won't take 20 years, only 4 more to bankrupt the country. This is why the ruling class is going for the jugular, social security revenues.

[lanparty]

22. YES WE CAN THROW UP A WALL!!!!!!!

It's a very simple thing to do. All we need to do is accept a temporary spike in inflation. But the good news is that all the money recirculates in the economy. We become more local and self-sufficient.

America today is like a farmer who doesn't fertilize his fields. Yes, he saves money by not purchasing fertilizer. This increases his bottom line. But the field will yield less and less each year.

Purchasing fertilizer is NOT an expense. It's an investment.

America has STOPPED investing in itself. We invest all our money overseas and are shocked to see our future in shambles.

Kerry has a nice plane for sealing the holes in the damn that holds back our destruction. But there is no repair project in sight. But Bush is actively knocking wholes in the damn in hopes that all the water of our nation will be lost and we'll become dependent on those who collect it all (global corporations). We will HAVE to accept lowering the water level in order to FIX the dam. We will have to strengthen and maintain that dam in order to keep out those who would do damage and steal our proverbial water.

My most sincere hope is that Kerry will try his patches and realize that things are STILL getting worse. Then he will stand up and say he was wrong about WTO and NAFTA. Then he would as congress to cancel the treaty (unlike Bush who simply scraps the constitution) by majority votes in both houses.

Vesting authority to invade was the only way to get the inspectors back into Iraq. That action was prudent despite the president breaking the law (his ONLY impeachable act in my opinion). Likewise handing the president authority to cancel WTO and NAFTA is the ONLY way to get suitable modifications in the treaty for safety, health, labor and environmental standards. Until we walk away from the free trade table, we will NEVER get a FAIR trade table.

[juajen]

28. Don't forget what Bill Clinton said at the DNC speech

How can we enforce fair trade practices with China and Japan when they have loaned us the money financing our deficit?

[Yupster]

55. Like China's going to listen to our trade complaints

regardless of who holds what debt.

[MisterP]

6. globalization has fostered this deliberately:

nations across the world are forced into a race to the bottom, slashing wages, rights, and benefits to lower "costs." Both developed and developing world suffer--and only the corporation masters benefit.

[allemand]

38. Please explain

How does creating jobs in the developing world make them worse off?

And how do cheaper products make the American consumer worse off?

[lanparty]

84. They force foreign debt ...

...

The game has been to gain entry into a marketplace and then destabilize it. Once thats accomplished, they are forced to go to the world debt in order to receive loans to keep things moving in the "global system".

As condition for those loans, countries are made to undergo radical lazzei-fair policies. Public institutions are privatized at cut rate prices. The countries assets and resources are given away to international corporations at fire-sale prices since they are FORCED to sell them. These typically include all the public utilities that fuel modern lifestyle, especially electrical, gas and water utilities.

Once the international corporations have the utilities they jack up the prices under pretense of "improving infrastructure". Note that typically INVESTORS bear the brunt of improvement projects since they will profit. No, in this case the customers are FORCED to endure tripling and quadrupling of prices which simply go to the people who stole the assets from the company (those in league with the World Bank).

The same reforms that were presumably set to stabilize an economy (like tax cuts on corporations) than cause the country to go into debt even further. The restructuring is INTENTIONALLY geared to extract the wealth of the nation while at the SAME TIME ensuring it's impossible to meet debt payments AND meet basic civil obligations.

THEN the country defaults on the loan as they are intended to by their indebtors. At that point, they try to steal the country wholesale. The smart countries will give them the finger and tell them to take their "world market" and shove it up their ass. They will forgo access to foreign goods and try to rebuild their local economies. They will renationalize the utilities as well as the extraction of local natural resources.

Then the CIA tries to overthrow the government. They fund rebel groups and try to remove the leaders who are trying to save their nation. They will make up stories about autocratic atrocities to create a wellspring of US popular support for military action to topple said "dictator".

While all this is going on, Fidel Castro will sit back in Havana smoking a cigar saying "Se Dige los, Se Dige los". And Hugo Chavez and Jean Bertran Aristide are the only ones who seem to listen.

[Gloria]

7. Yup....read an article last week in a Japanese paper about how

Japan is importing more from China than from the US for the first time in history....

[CanIgonow]

17. After I posted this, I was reminded of a statement attributed to Carly

Fiorina of HP.She is supposed to have said that Americans do not have a God given right to a job any more than someone in India or China.That told me that to the CEO class we are just warm bodies easily interchangeable with a lower wage equivalent in India or China so Carly can pull down her nine figure salaries,bonuses and stock options.

[Eric J in MN]

18. There are CEOs in India who would be willing to do her job at Hewlett

Packard for a fraction of her compensation.

[lanparty]

24. It will creep up the food chain ...

As much as I see CEOs as superfluous back-stabbing robber barons, I do not see them being replaced by cut rate competition. No, these are positions of privelege. Their ranks are populated by members of and exclusive club. They are the modern aristocrats. They serve themselves to the exclusion of the lower classes.

Don't expect a corporate board to hire Apu because he'll work cheaper. Hell, their are MILLIONS of Americans who would take a 10th of what they make and still be counted amongst the top 10% of wage earners.

The only way Apu gets the top spot is by sitting on enough boards. The only way he gets onto boards is ass-kissing, information warfare, family privelege and power. This is the SAME way everybody else gets there.

But I DO expect that the outsourcing phenomenon will keep migrating up the chain. All the hangers on and wannabes will be replaced as the hardcore GOP "free-traders" cannabilizes on their own numbers. Token outsourced VPs will be brought in as a threat to the others. But wont ever seriously contend with the WASPS.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

26. Labor, like troops, is fungible. Rumsfeld economics.

The neocons are competing with China for dominance of the planet.

Their intended salvation is energy weapons in space to gain the ultimate air dominance over everyone everywhere.

Currently, the US can only project military might around China with aircraft carriers. The Chinese have a cruise missile that can wipe out a carrier easily. Hence Bush*s disinterest in "swatting flies" and the deaf ear turned to Richard Clarke's warnings before 9/11.

Check out www.haarp.net to see a project in Alaska aimed at charging the ionosphere to affect climate change in hostile countries or deflect missiles.

[allemand]

29. Why do you think that the growing Indian and Chinese Middle Classes

won't buy US products?

And that their wages will remain low forever?

[CanIgonow]

30. Remember most US products are already Made in China anyway.

[allemand]

33. I think you confound the US economy with its manufacturing sector n/t

[sadiesworld]

32. What US products?

Sure, they may need some of our natural resources and food, but how many people can be employed extracting and growing those? (Hell, I read somewhere that the IMF(?) OWNS the great lakes.) China and India will make their own damn cars and dishwashers.

Will their wages remain low forever? Probably. Their populations are enormous--we can give them every friggin' job we have and not put a dent in them. Even if you buy into the "it will all work out in the long run" theory (which I don't b/c the multinationals will just start over w/ another country or return to America once they have destroyed it), how long is this going to take?

[allemand]

35. The US is the most technologically advanced country

So why would India and China only be interested in "natural resources and food"?

And why should the Indian and Chinese labour markets be exempt from the laws of demand and supply?
A higher demand for labour will lead to an increase in wages, and thus will create a bigger market for US products.

[CanIgonow]

36. The populations of India and China represent nearly 40% of the

world.As one level of people move into higher incomes there are millions more waiting to take their place.This will keep their wages depressed for a long time.Also remember that unlike Europe,Japan and America their populations are young and growing.There is a lot more of them now and there is going to be even more of them in the future.
Law of supply and demand indeed.

[allemand]

37. Sounds like a fantastic market potential to me

Population growth in China is tightly controlled.

You are right about India, but one shouldn't forget the correlation between a rising standard of living and a lower birth-rate.

[sadiesworld]

43. Market potential for what?

Please enlighten me as to what we are going to produce/create for these countries that they can't produce/create on their own or buy more cheaply from one another.

You've never quite answered the question of how long this will take, but if we're waiting on a reduction in birth rates in India...

[CanIgonow]

44. Like the economist John Maynard Keynes used to say,

In the long run, we will all be dead.On this topic, you may even add, in the long run, we, our children and our grandchildren will all be dead.

[allemand]

47. Keynes was referring to economic crisis, not to international trade n/t

[allemand]

62. I see that Stiglitz uses the quote in the same context as you

Very good article, "Outsourced and Out of Work".
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentaries/commentary_text.php4?id=1559&m=series

He wanted to stress the crucial role of government in globalization, though, not the indiscriminate use of protectionism.

[allemand]

54. For US products, of course

There is undoubtedly still an advantage in know-how. It can be used to increase productivity for all kinds of products as well as to create technologically advanced products.

I hope that it happens sooner rather than later, because a prospering India and China will be of huge benefit for the whole world economy.

Blame Bush's misguided economic policies for the dismal results in job creation, not international competition.

[sadiesworld]

58. Oh, I get it.

We are going to replace tens of millions of manufacturing and professional jobs by making things that haven't been invented yet (but we do know that no other country can make them because they don't have "know-how").

Is it possible that the middle class will be destroyed, most US citizens will live in poverty and there will STILL be vast numbers of unemployed in China and India?

[allemand]

61. You seem to think that your standard of living depends on the poverty

of people in China and India. And you seem to be pleased with that idea. Frankly, I don't get that.

Why did you ignore what I said about using the technological advantage to increase productivity? How else do you want to keep the "manufacturing and professional jobs"?

"Making things that haven't been invented yet" - that's how progress works (in addition to finding new ways to make things that have already been invented, i.e. increasing productivity). And information (know-how, if you like) is indeed the cornerstone of the economy.

[sadiesworld]

66. I think you are insulting to the people in China and India when you insist

that the only way they can improve their lot is by offering cheaper labor. It seems that you feel they do not have the "know-how" to invent/create...that this is a singularly American trait. Frankly, I don't get THAT.

[democratreformed]

42. What makes the US the most technologically advanced nation?

Seriously, I keep hearing that but is it really true? Especially when other countries moved ahead in education long ago? Are we really the most technologically advanced? Or have we "sold" all our new technologies along with everything else?

[allemand]

45. Education is one key element

The US still has the best universities in the world. Until 9/11 they attracted the "best and the brightest" from all over the world.
Other countries may have moved ahead in education (have you seen public schools in Singapore...?), but the attractiveness of the university system temporarily made up for that disadvantage.

I think that low tax-rate and "shrink the beast" policies are indeed endangering the technological advantage, which can be maintained only by investment in learning and education on all levels. I don't see any other way.

[allemand]

63. Learning from India

Jeffrey Sachs wrote an interesting article about new developments in India:

India Takes the Lead
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentaries/commentary_text.php4?id=1634&lang=1&m=series

"The budget calls for a surtax on incomes to help pay for increased social expenditures.

The lesson for other developing countries is that spending on the poor for health, education, safe drinking water, electricity, and the like, is not simply pandering; it is a serious and productive investment. It may be expensive to educate a child, but it is far more expensive to a society to leave a child without education. Uneducated children will be burdens on their societies for decades to come. It is far more rational to spend a little extra income now for a few years of schooling than face decades of social costs resulting from masses of uneducated adult workers!"

What is valid for India seems to be equally true for America (mutatis mutandis).

[democratreformed]

80. That's a good quote.

Every day, I become more frustrated by the rhetoric from the right. Last week, there was letter-to-the-editor in our local paper in which someone was spouting the old lines - "The Democrats want to take care of everybody and they want to raise your taxes to do it." What is wrong with taking care of people? Granted, there has to be a balance, but, like that quote says, investment in citizens' health, well-being, and education is an investment in the future. I wonder if I could use that to write a reply letter-to-the-editor?

[democratreformed]

64. I don't know about Singapore

but I do know that exchange students (high school) are generally far ahead of our students. I am less knowledgable about comparisons at the university level.

I just know that public school is one of my pet peeves. I taught for six years and it seemed that each new policy sent us backward instead of forward.

[allemand]

65. The Ivy League is still in a league of its own but I remember reading

an article that stated that at all the other universities there is "much room for improvement"...

Singapore is a very small country, but they value education and their public schools are very well funded and equipped.
And it shows.

This is from 1999:

[democratreformed]

81. Right now, I believe that our country's values are backwards.

That's not to say that all Americans' values are backwards - just the leadership's values. Entertainers make loads of money while those that teach our children barely make enough to have a comfortable living. I taught with a woman who started teaching a long time ago for $600 per year. Today, she draws more money retired than she ever made while teaching.

Also, the attitude toward education is reflected in the children. I taught 12 - 18 year olds. At twelve, they were still a little interested. By 14 or 15, a lot of them are asking "Why?". Why do we have to learn this? Why don't we get paid to go to school? When will we ever use this? The general attitude is no longer one that education is an important and crucial part of growing up.

I firmly believe that the public education system at the elementary and high school level is an utter failure on the whole.

[Yupster]

56. The market will eventually work itself out

our standard of living will meet China's eventually and then there will be no reason to move jobs because our workers will work as cheaply as theirs.

This will be a big drop for us, but we've known this day was coming since the end of WW II. The US can't dominate the world's economy forever. Eventually other countries will learn to do what we do and do it much more cheaply.

The guy on top always gets fat and lazy and there are always guys who are much leaner and meaner who are catching up.

The only way to stay ahead is to always be the ones to come up with the new technologies and te new jobs. Because the countries behind you will always be stealing your old industry jobs for you.

The internet is an invention that really hurt us in the end, because it allows information to move so quickly, it lets other economies take advantage of the new inventions we create much quicker than in the past. We may have had a generation before the following nations figured out how we did stuff. Now it happens overnight.

That internet bubble burdting may not have just been the signal for the three year stock market crash -- it could have been the signal for the end of US eonomic dominance for the world.

[sadiesworld]

57. Cheap labor, anti-SS, anti-inheritance tax.

Gee, hard to tell the dems from the pugs some days.

[madrchsod]

41. we have nothing to sell..

what products that are made in the usa will the growing middle and upper class chinese going to buy?

[ensemble]

51. Re:

Why do you think that the growing Indian and Chinese Middle Classes won't buy US products?

And that their wages will remain low forever?


They will not buy US products because they don't have the $. They will buy knockoffs from their own countries.

Energy limitations will constrain growth in these huge economies, and there will always be an excess of labor. Particularly in China, lack of freedoms will make organizing and fighting for higher living standards difficult. Bottom line: globalization makes the third world countries better off, 1st world countries worse off, and the wealthy better off.

As an engineer with a graduate degree, my advice to young folks: Work for the government (teaching, etc.), health care, or sectors that depend on these. Everything else is disposable.

[madrchsod]

39. can you say argentina?

[rhite5]

46. This is an important discussion

Among the presidential candidates, only Ralph Nader is talking about this and raising the alarm. Even Cobb is avoiding it, so I heard.

We badly need to hear something definitive from Kerry about this issue. I am hoping his earlier thinking (from back in the 90s) has evolved.

For that matter, I want to know what other Senators and Congressmen are saying about this now. Kucinich is strongly opposed to WTO and NAFTA and so are many, perhaps most, of the members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, but they are mostly keeping their heads down. I don't have a clue about anyone in the Senate.

[mike_c]

49. a difficult, contrary opinion....

This issue is one that really bothers me. On the one hand, I agree with the opinions expressed by many in this thread-- globalization and the corporatization of U.S. political leadership will ruin the U.S. economy. Why should the multinational corporations protect U.S. economic future in a global economy in which the U.S. represents a shrinking market and an exceptionally expensive manufacturing and production plant? They won't, because global trade policies give them no incentives for doing so.

On the other hand, there is a certain poetic justice to this. The U.S. has maintained a high standard of living for generations now by concentrating a HUGELY disproportionate amount of the world's resources into the hands of a small fraction of its population. We have exploited much of the rest of the world for our own benefit. Cracks are beginning to appear in that dike. We cannot continue living like this at everyone else's expense forever.

[CanIgonow]

52. In my heart I know there is a lot of truth in what you say but I see the

pain and suffering of many people caught up in things in which they never had any say and have for the most part tried to live ordinary decent lives.To see not just their standard of living decimated but their entire world view crumble is more than any of us can handle within a short span of time.I am glad that China and India have devoted their meager resources for the betterment of their people instead of wasting it on trrorism, violence what have you.That is the good that I see in the improvement in the lives of nearly 40% of humanity.I wish our administrations ( especially the Kerry administration) reduces our bloated military budget and devotes the money to paying down our debt and to improve education and health care.That alone will make the season of our suffering worth bearing.

[Yupster]

53. Don't think there's much doubt that

Chine will eventually be the dominant economy in the world. They have four times our population for one thing.

If the Chinese people who move to here are any indication of average Chinese, then they are a hard working, innovative people who greatly value education. They will and probably should kick our butts.

[Strelnikov_]

67. Like Boosh Said, He's A Uniter

From the article:

"Even as America's position erodes, its policies - on Iraq, North Korea, weapons proliferation - have tended to push China and its neighbors together. Not least among the shared interests is a "mutual concern about the unilateralism" of current American policy, said Muhammad Noordin Sopiee, chairman of Malaysia's Institute of Strategic and International Studies."

[Strelnikov_]

71. China Is The Dot-Com Bubble Of This Decade

China is all the rage because of the high growth rate taking place. This growth is primarily being fed by the U.S. trade deficit. When the U.S. economy catches the flu in the next few years, China will get pneumonia.

With China's massive population, a large middle class will never develop due to the limitless availability of labor. All of the endemic historic problems of China are still present (overpopulation, limited arable land, lack of natural resources).

I do agree that China will emerge at the center of an Asian-Pacific trading block, and U.S. influence will wane in Asia as our military position deteriorates. I feel that someday we will be equals with China, with neither country having an advantage over the other, and (hopefully) co-existing in peaceful trade.