Your "Anti-Semite" BULLSHIT Stops Right Here

[matcom]

I am TIRED of this SHIT!

It is DONE on these boards.

It is BULLSHIT!

If I do not agree with the Israeli position, I AM NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE!!!

If I tell you that having Israeli SPIES working for MY GOVERNMENT is a BAD THING, I AM NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE!!!

If I express my OPINION that I don't believe that the Palestinians are THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL ----- I AM NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE

FUCK OFF! If I don't agree with EVERYTHING THE ISRAELI GOV'T does, that does NOT MEAN I HATE JEWS!!!

FUCK THAT.!!!!

it is thrown around WAY TOO MUCH here and in society and i am fucking TIRED OF IT!!

WANNA KNOW A TRUTH?????

WE HAVE ISRAELI SPIES IN OUR GOVERMENT!!!!

deal with it. some of them even SOLD MY FAMILY OUT!

FLAME AWAY :eyes:

Tell you what: YOU want to accuse ME of it from now on? I'll call your ASS on it EVERY TIME and shove it up your A**!

[Fenris]

1. Anti-Semite.

:D

[Placebo]

2. I Support the Palestinians.

I just identify with their position more and think they have a right to a state of their own.

[TSIDTPIG]

21. I support Israel

They were attacked by all surrounding enemies and persevered. As an honest Dem I support the underdog. Many enemies that still surround Israel still want them pushed into the sea.

[jonnyblitz]

29. Holy Crap! the underdog is NOT ISrael!!

tell me which peoples are unemployed and starving!! Israel is practicing apartheid on the Palestinians!!

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sub.theory]

47. You got some facts to go with that?

n/t

[Placebo]

38. You can't honestly think Israel is the UNDERDOG can you?

They have the backing of the world's only remaining super power and have such modern defense systems etc...

the palestinians are the underdog!

[TSIDTPIG]

45. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess

Israel is the underdog and was forced to pump iron into their defensive mode. No American political party that exposes Israel to more terror and blackmail will win the WH in the foreseeable future. But we knew that beforehand did we not?

[Placebo]

49. Agree to disagree, I agree...

:pals:

[donheld]

51. Israel is far from an underdog

israel has been given billions of dollars worth of the most suffisticated weaponry, the palestinians nothing. Israel gets away with ignoring any UN resolution it wants to. i guess even some liberal people think it's ok to exterminate the palestinians.

:bounce:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

42. Sorry, but that's digital thinking (also known as the false choice).

Also known as the "either/or" fallacy or the fallacy of false choices, this fallacy takes the form of only acknowledging 2 (one of which is usually extreme) options from a continuum or other array of possibilities.

Palestinians are Muslims, therefore Israel is the good guy.

Sorry, but there stopped being good guys in this mess a LONG time ago.

We are faced with varying shades of gray.

The Palestinians getting their own homeland is not going jeopardize our freedom to have this message board. The Israelis ridding themselves permanently of the Palestinian issue is not going to enhance our abilty to have this message board.

In other words, your argument is SENSELESS and has no association to reality. (It's also the silly kind of thinking that keeps getting US soldiers killed in senseless wars because if we don't "insert thing that must be done right this minute" then we will all suddenly lose our freedoms.

Vietnam: If we don't win Vietnam we'll be fighting the commies in Hawaii!

Iraq: If we don't win in Iraq, Muslims will take over the US through terrorism.

[Connie_Corleone]

3. No flaming here.

Just because you disagree with the Israeli government doesn't make you an anti-semite.

I never understood why the two went hand in hand.

[TrustingDog]

4. I do.

the Sharons like to use their people like the Bush's like to.

[skooooo]

5. Agreed...

Connie, why haven't you visited your children yet!?????????

[Connie_Corleone]

48. I'm too busy acting like a spoiled brat.

:P

[Eloriel]

10. It's called the New Anti-Semitism -- and it's a plan

Here's a little about it (in an article worth reading in its entirety):


Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806

[Vladimir]

19. Once you are called an anit-semite

there is no really good response either, that's the problem. If you try to engage into a conversation and prove that you do not in fact hate all jews, you are already accepting that the insult has some merit. In my experience it is best to laugh it off.

PS This does not of course take away from the fact that real anti-semites do exist. But to try and label every critic of Israel an anti-semite is to paint most of the world with that odious brush...

[smiley_glad_hands]

6. Pretty much agree with ya.

Our foreign policy should not be beholden to a foreign entity. We have to look out for ourselves before we can look out for anyone else, including our "little brother" Israel. I am not ant-semitic for being pro America in this regard.

[wolfgirl]

7. Calling names of anyone

just because you disagree with an opinion is not my habit. I will disagree with folks, but I won't call 'em a name....

Okay..maybe I'll refer to them as a "moran" if they believe all the BS from Bush & Co., but I think that is forgivable.

Anyway...I believe that Isreal should have a state and I believe
the Palestinians should have a state. Do I think the Israelis
spy on us, yes. Am I anti-Semitic, no...just a realist in an
every increasing un-real world.

Peace!

[MichiganVote]

8. Uh..ok. But are you a liberal?

(torque in cheek)

[searchingforlight]

9. You will get no arguement from me.

I have never understood how a country that was born out of such horror and persecution could have the attitude they do toward the plight of the Palestinian people.

[starroute]

31. It's *because* Israel was born out of horror and persecution

I was catching bits of a program earlier this evening which was talking about how both Hitler and Stalin were repeatedly beaten by their fathers when they were little. I've seen figures in the past about how some appalling percentage of violent criminals were abused as children.

Abuse begets abuse, persecution begets persecution, and horror begets horror. That is the vicious cycle that has to be broken.

[searchingforlight]

36. As I look at the world through my rose colored glasses

I always expect us to learn from our mistakes.

You are right.

[Cat Atomic]

11. Well, Jewish critics of Israel are sometimes called

anti-semitic, too. Sometimes the accusor will adjust it to "self-hating Jew" so they don't seem quite so ludicrous, but the intent is the same: to bully the opposition into silence.

[baldguy]

12. Anti-Israel /= Anti-Semitic

Should the US generally support Israel? Yes.

Should we support them unquestioningly & uncritically? Absolutely not. Israel's current policies do not support peace. We should file a protest, withdraw our ambassador, and eject their diplomatic mission.

But, Israel has the US govt by the balls - nothing will happen.

[The empressof all]

13. Jew by injection

Most of my family is Jewish and I am a jew by injection. We support a Palestinian homeland in my household. The continued survival and the creation of a Palestinian homeland are not mutually exclusive. Those idiots in charge over there just need to get on the ball and stop the stupid, idiotic arguments.

[shadu]

14. Where are those flamers?

I wonder if some posters are on vacation.

[Nlighten1]

15. I agree!

Farking A Matcom!

[Julien Sorel]

16. How nice.

After a year of watching "The Diary of Ann Frank," and "The Holocaust," and "A Woman Called Golda," it's too bad there won't be a lot of people who share your opinion. What's a little spying compared to the TV show I saw last night?

[matcom]

17. ah, What's A Little SPYING and KILLING Compared To the WORLD that DIED

Last Night

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Gosh, it didn't work for me!

Unlike you, my tv viewing habits don't seem to have magically transformed me into someone who believes criticism of Israel for its treatment of the Palestinian people is anti-Semitism. Being someone who agree with mattcom's opinion, and having never watched 'A Woman Called Golda', this obviously must be the tv show that turns people into blind and unthinking supporters of Ariel Sharon and whatever that govt does...

Violet...

[Julien Sorel]

41. From a look at your blog, you are in Australia.

It's the second most pro-Israel country in the world, but I rather doubt you get the same degree of propaganda-as-entertainment spewed at you as we here do. If you did, you would probably understand things here a lot better.

[DemWitch]

18. doesn't sound anti-semite to me...

pointing out flaws doesn't make you anti-anything... you're pointing out flaws, period.

Of course the Palestinians should have their own state. Arafat screwed up when they got 95% of what they wanted and he walked away. Does that make me anti-palestinian. No. I pointed out a flaw.

With all the talk about Hussein adhering to UN resolutions, and the US using that as a reason (one of many) for invading, it would seem responsible for Israel to adhere to the UN resolution telling them they should give back the land they took. Is that anti-semite? No, it's pointing out a flaw.

A Palestinian blowing himself up, along with 10 other people at a bus top is wrong. Israel taking Black Hawks and f-16's and wiping out entire neighborhoods in retaliation is wrong too.

Personally, ti was England who started all this shit by breaking up the Middle East in the Early 1900's, then the UN adding to it by throwing people out of their land to create Israel. Why the hell don't they clean up thier own messes?

[TSIDTPIG]

20. Got a link to these accusations?

When did someone make these suppositions?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TSIDTPIG]

35. I've been reading for months

Whenever I've seen such claims someone always asks for links. I just did the same. What's the big deal?

[JanMichael]

22. Ditto.

What's really sad to me is that Israel has been hi-jacked by the Religious Right. Why? Because it has a fairly secular population, a fairly, no, not "fairly, it has a VERY Liberal segment of the population that's being dragged down the road to ruin.

My heart goes out to them, Sharon can rot, he isn't Israel no more than Bush is America...Unfortunately those two cretins have their serpent like claws on the throat of Liberty...

[Raven]

24. Matt, sweetie, take a deep breath and

a walk around the block...this is going to be very difficult. You are right, of course, and you have reason to know that your are right. But this is, as I posted elsewhere, the real "Third Rail" and it will take great patience to see this through. I love you for what you believe in and for your care for William. :hug:

[matcom]

27. i can't walk away

i'm sorry "MOM" :loveya:

i'll take a break after 11/02/04 but I can't now

sorry.

:loveya:

[Raven]

30. Just a short walk?

It will be here when you get back...believe me!

[Catherine Vincent]

25. ooh, I love a man who tells it like it is!

[jonnyblitz]

26. THANK YOU!!

A FUCKING MEN!! Israel has a fucking fascist government PERIOD!!! criticising fascism is NOT ANTISEMITISM!!! it's just a way to shut down debate. that is why I RARELY post on those threads. no matter WHAT you say you get accused of that. RIGHT ON MATCOM!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[movonne]

32. I do not like Sharon nor do I like bush...this does not make me

anti-semitic or Un-American.

[The Traveler]

34. We're on the same page

I don't blame the Israelis for this. Top administration officials allowed a mole into their midst. My question: Who was asleep at the switch and allowed this guy in so deep? Heads must roll, methinks. God, these guys are incompetent.

Governments spy on each other, even those that enjoy good relations. This, however, is a rather cheeky penetration of the American policy making process, and apparently with the intention not merely to monitor it but to influence its decisions. That is downright disrepectful and dangerous to American interests. That being the case, we need to take the hint and realize the Israelis are not our unconditional friends ... they attend well to what they perceive to be their own interests.

And we must be at liberty to do likewise. In general terms, I think it is necessary to support the existance the of the state of Israel. We can do that without writing blank checks or bending over and grabbing our ankles for them. We can do that without condoning their repeated violation of UN resolutions and their excessively brutal tactics against the Palestinians.

If that makes me anti-semitic in your eyes, that is your problem. I am an American. I choose to be loyal to my own country. And I myself do not think we should enable anyone to perpetrate atrocities ... be they Israeli, or Arab, or any other group. Our interests are better served when we serve just and honorable purposes.

[NightTrain]

39. You've been hanging out in the I/P forum, haven't you?

Went there once, saw how many "Israel Uber Alles" posters were there, and never returned!

[Hornito]

40. How many people have been banned from DU for speaking

the truth about PNAC, neocons, the dual-loyalty neocons in the White House, Congress, AIPAC, JINSA, I/P issues, and a host of other inter-connected subjects?

Over the last couple of years here on DU, there have been dozens and dozens of people who spoke the truth, but were attacked by some of the radical Zionists who hang on this board. They verbally abused the posters, and almost always accused them being anti-Semitic. It was sickening, that some of the administrators, and some of the past mods on this board, backed these abusers up, by deleting hundreds of posts (over the last two years), and then banning posters who did not deserve to be banned, .... all for telling the truth.

I think, especially given some of the information we've learned over the last year, including tonight's not-surprising news, that a number of people here at DU owe apologies to those they have abused, and made false accusations against.

It happened to me, and I am a Jew(!!!), but one who puts loyalty to this nation FIRST, above all others! I am also one of the 70% of Jews in this country who are Democrats, and one of a large number of progressives who support a fair and moral settlement of I/P issues.

The shame in all this, is that JEWS will now be blamed for the Iraq invasion. I predicted that the Bushies and their Saudi/oil friends would eventually use the Jews at DOD as scapegoats. While radical asshole traitors like Wolfowitz, Perle, Abrams, Feith, and all the rest, certainly deserve a major portion of the blame, let's not forget who was/is president, and who backs him up.

[Liberal Veteran]

52. Unfortunately, logical and broad based thinking is not very common...

To be honest, our real problem is extremism on the various sides of this equation.

We have extremist Muslims who want to convert or destroy everyone who doesn't follow their agenda.
We have have extremist Christians (who also want to destroy everyone who doesn't want to follow their agenda) and PNACers who are in an uneasy alliance with extremist Israelis who have an agenda that puts their cultural homeland before that of our nation and both sides are using the other for excuses and/or as pawns.

We have extremely thin skinned people who cannot accept their is enough blame to go around in all of this and see every criticism of their pet cause (whether it be Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Enviromnentalism, Gay rights, you name it) as a personal attack or a mark of bigotry.


And somehow, someway, the extremists got the power in the majority of the various factions playing against one another.

The rest of us are just caught in the middle of this. Palestinians, Muslims, decent people of faith, gays, Israelis, and a host of others are being caught between the power plays against each other and people are demanding we take a side when so many of can see that we don't have any good choices anymore which is paralyzes those of us who are tired of being offered digital thinking, simple minded solutions to complex problems, and false cries of disloyalty.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Excellent Editorial From The Jerusalem Post

Slightly off-topic:

The case against George W. Bush

For the record, I don't agree with what the Sharon Gov't has been up to. I think the situation there has gotten worse, not better. I also think the GOP's interest in Israel ends somewhere between the fourth and fifth "Left Behind" book.

I have good friends who are Israeli. I think the majority of Israelis are fairly reasonable and liberal, even if their government right now isn't-- in short, much like the situation in the US currently.

However, I also think that Yasser Arafat blew a major opportunity for long-term peace in 2000. He did. I don't think it's possible to have a rational discussion about what's taking place in Israel right now without acknowledging that fact.

I don't believe the Iraq war, per se, had all that much to do with Israel. I think it had, and has, to do with oil. Period. The Saudis had as much of a vested interest, if not more, in getting rid of Saddam as the Israelis did.

That said, do I equate criticism of Israel with Anti-Semitism? No, that's ridiculous. I have come across some on the left who are anti-semitic, but far more on the right. Likewise, I have come across some on the left who truly don't believe Israel has a right to exist, much less defend itself in any way, shape, or form. But they are rare, too. Criticism of Israel is to Anti-Semitism as Criticism of George Bush is to Anti-Americanism-- i.e. they're certainly not the same thing!

[chookie]

44. Uh, Mat -- this bullshit goes WAY beyond internet forums

Bingo. I side with your position. Accusing people of anti-Semitism when they have legitimate concerns about policies in the middle east is *JUST* a bullying tactic of the extreme right wing. You're DAMNED RIGHT it's bullshit, and it's high time we show guts in denouncing these accusations. We must expose them for what it is -- pure BS.

But as you must know, this bullshit goes a lot further than just internet forums. It's ***official****. Rick Santorum is pushing for legislation to cut federal funding for American colleges and universities found to be permitting professors, students and student organizations to openly criticize Israel, which he considers to be an act of “anti-Semitism.” People like Daniel Pipes are advising Bush, inform his world view, and are activists on college campuses, demanding that criticism of Israel be stopped.

Since Sept 11, they have tried to promulgate the notion that the interests of the US and Israel are IDENTICAL.

Tip: a lot of words Bush uses like "democracy" (as in "enemies of democracy and freedom") are really code words for Israel.

Indeed, the notion of a spy in the Pentagon will be laughed aside as something harmless, because Israel is the 51st State.

FUCK -- I remember the good old days when small countries used to fight the United States proxy wars! NOW the US is fighting Israel's proxy wars!

[not systems]

46. yep.

Your right.

[The Straight Story]

50. Like saying someone is anti-american

If they find fault with those in power (at all levels, or perhaps better put any level).

Every country has the good guys/bad guys thing going on (depending on which view you take defines who the bad/good are). Israel is no different than the rest. one might rationalize their actions more due to historical recollections, but understanding and condoning are seperate things altogether.

Give someone a life threatening situation and they will often find many ways to defend themselves - some of them we might find tasteless or extreme. If Israel believes it's life/existence is in jeopardy than it is no surprise that such a line of thinking has led them to places we consider over the edge (much like here in our own country). I wouldn't put anything past governments who feel they have to act to save themselves - they have the power and the means to do things far beyond the average Joe when it comes to long term plans of saving themselves from what they see as life threatening.

[LostInAnomie]

53. Off topic but...

... it is hard to take your fiery words seriously with the images in your sig line.

Especially, that damn hippo.

[Moderator]

54. Locking

This story has become more about Israel and DU than about the Spying incident.