If BBV can be hacked easily as Bev has proved should we hack them?

[Bandit]

Should we protect ourselves by "Pre-Emptive" hacking? Or is there a way we could monitor the software and keep the hacking from occurring? I admit I am very illiterate in this area.

[Occulus]

1. that would make us guilty of what we're trying to prevent

[sventvkg]

3. I agree........Give me a break..Fight fire with fire!!! Hack the bastards

[ParanoidPat]

4. Good luck with that......

......just hope none of us who will be looking closely at this election catch you.

I'd turn you in just as surely as I'd turn in anyone else I caught. :evilgrin:

Hacking an election to prove an election can be hacked is like raping a woman to prove that she could be raped! Not a very smart thing to do.

[Bandit]

5. Can you tell if it's been hacked?

I know it has been demonstrated that they can be easily hacked but can you actually monitor the system and know for a fact if a hack has occurred?

[ParanoidPat]

7. Sorry, I can't even discuss what security measures......

.....can be implemented to look for a 'hack' attempt with anyone who would even ask the question 'should we hack them'!

BAAAAD JUJU! I hope you understand. :evilgrin:

[librechik]

47. Republicans scare me when they get interested in BBV

It makes me think they're trying to pin any electronic havoc on Nov 2 on Liberal Hackers--that is IF we win.

So STFU!!!

we would NEVER do that--or worse, babble about it on a public forum--and then go do it.

[leesa]

30. No, it wouldn't. We are trying to prevent a theft, they are trying to

pull one off. Besides pre-emptive strikes are all the rage now.

[ParanoidPat]

2. NO!

:evilgrin:

[CrispyQ]

6. I would never advocate that, however, in one article I read,

...it was pointed out that the repugs should consider that if the system is that open to hacking, it would be just as easy for the election to be thrown to the dems, let's say some 14 year old kid who just lost a beloved relative in the war.

It's scandalous that they aren't concerned. It reeks of complicity.

[chaska]

8. Proof of hacking, regardless of who hacks, get's rid of those machines.

I say hack the hell out of 'em.

[LifeDuringWartime]

9. sure

if you wanna go to jail! hacking is super-illegal these days.

breaking into a server carries a MUCH stiffer sentence than breaking into a house or something. its uncanny.

[Pallas180]

12. If the repugnants do hack the machines 2004, we have no recount

cause we have no paper trail.

If you all dont take this to a Federal Court or the Supreme Court
to stop the use of any machine in the entire country that does not provide a proper paper trail to each voter, the election will go on, they will change the results within 9 seconds as Bev Harris has shown....and we will have a dictatorship.

Taking the high road is nice, but a luxury when you're dealing with
a cabal that has no morals, no integrity, and will do anything, anything to maintain hold over the resources and armies of this country.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. Dumbest idea in a long time, here.

I suggest that you look up the various laws pertaining to hacking and look at the penalties. Then ask yourself if you can handle them.

[Boredtodeath]

11. Should you rob a bank?

To prove it can be robbed? Or better yet, rob it first to keep the bad guys from robbing it?

You think there's a "nice jail" for someone who was just trying to prove it could be done?

Dumb, dumb, dumb idea.

[Pallas180]

13. And will you be able to confirm if the repugnants hack the results?

and will they go to jail?

[ParanoidPat]

15. With enough help, YES!

If you haven't signed up as a poll watcher yet, what are you waiting for? :shrug: :evilgrin:

It could be the most important thing you ever do! :hi:

[Boredtodeath]

17. It doesn't matter.

I dare you to go before a judge and say "Your Honor, I only committed a crime to keep the other guy from committing one. So you shouldn't send me to jail for it."

Hack away, just don't call me after you do.

And condoning illegal activities on a public message board is stupid for any number of reasons.

I've seen some stupid things on the internet, but this one takes the cake.

[Bandit]

21. Granted there are a lot of stupid things posted and some have more than

meets the eye. Think about it a bit. Thinking doesn't hurt... honest....This site is watched by others.

[Boredtodeath]

27. This site is watched by others

Which is exactly one of my points. What's the name of Bev's SS agent? If there is ANY truth to that story, I hope you are prepared to have your IP address and contact information given to him when DU is forced to do so.

Condoning illegal activity - particularly that which many states have legislated as terrorism (see GA) - on a public message board is senseless and dumb.

If you think it's a good idea, keep your mouth shut and just do it. Or is it that you just want to encourage others to break the law while you sit back and watch them?

[Andy_Stephenson]

35. What...

They said.

[Bandit]

46. Asking a question is not condoning

Bring something out into a more public realm is not condoning. I ask a question and everyone freaks out. I hope the Freepers and watchers freak out as much as you DUers are doing. How dare anyone ask such a question. At no time did I ever suggest we should actually do this. I asked if people here thought it a good idea. Some people don't seem to comprehend what they read very well.

[Dob Bole]

14. Pre-emptive doctrine? You flip-flopper, you!

Hope this thread is locked before Rush Limbaugh or Larry Klayman read it.

[Bandit]

16. But that is the idea

I want rush to see it. I want the freepers to see it. I want them to start doubting the system as much as we do. You guys can't see the forest for the trees. It is becoming apparent that the officials are blowing all this off. If the "right people" start fearing for the "proper results" then maybe just maybe something can be done. These people, Bev, Paranoid Pat, and all the rest who have been on this since way back when are butting their heads against the wall it seems. I'm trying to instill some doubt.

[ParanoidPat]

22. All you will accomplish is to undo all of the good work that's been done..

.....by many people who have been working for years to get this story out. There are already many public officials who have bought the PR lines being sold by R. Doug Lewis and the Election Center. They have consistently claimed that the system is safe due to "multiple levels of security" and that we are "only trying to scare the American Public into not voting".

Bev and Andy have amassed thousands of pages of documentation that prove that the "multiple levels of security" are rarely enforced and are, at best, a joke. By working with elections officials nationwide, they have shown that our goal is to get more people involved in our elections and make the process of counting votes transparent.

Your attempt to "instill some doubt" without a plan of action to instill some confidence in the system only reinforces the lies being told about us. :(

Why not spend your time contacting your elected representatives, from your County Registrar all the way up to your Congressman and Senator, and let them know that you want them to do something about it. :)

[leftchick]

25. My local election officials just went to a great "conference"..

at some resort hosted by... "The Election Center"... they have no shame and brush me off like lint on their jacket... :grr:

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. Then start doing public records requests.

Make allies with the office people.

They can sometimes be your best ally.

[Pallas180]

18. Uhmmm. Anyone who has committed the crime cRUSHtch has would be in jail -

I'm not so sure even with poll watchers you'll be able to get
anywhere.

And I highly doubt anyone high up, like dimson, would go to
jail if the repugs fix the election AGAIN. Of course I'm in Florida - so maybe I'm more realistic.

Take it to court now.

Some gal in Maryland did, and has won, I believe, not using the machines.

.

[Bandit]

19. I agree but wouldn't you like both sides to be fighting this?

Make the freepers worry a little and maybe they will spend some of their time and money on this issue as well.

[ParanoidPat]

39. You obviously haven't met Jim March!

There really are people from both sides of the isle working together on this. :) :thumbsup:

[Occulus]

48. this issue is about as nonpartisan as they get

[Liberal Veteran]

20. I'd like to have Joseph Stalin or Britney Spears be declared...

...winner of the presidential race and then see how fast people stop saying these machines are trustworthy.

[Andy_Stephenson]

24. Lyndon LaRouche

thats my choice.

Andy

[Andy_Stephenson]

23. NO ONE Should hack the machines.

Get rid of the problem...problem solved.

Pen, paper and a day off.

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. The only way to get rid of these systems is to make Repukes realize

That this hacking scam can work both ways - PERIOD! I'm not suggesting anyone actually do it - and I know some people here have jumped all over Bandit for this threat - but we shouldn't kid ourselves, folks. The fact is we are up a against a group of RUTHLESS CHEATERS WHO WILL RESORT TO ANYTHING TO WIN. Sometimes the rules get changed when one side just throws them away - and the best way to tame/enlighten a bully is to punch him right in the nose.

[Boredtodeath]

28. That's just not the case

Hacking is not the only way to get rid of these systems.

There's only one way to defeat this and it's through the court system and local legislatures.

Breaking the law because "they broke it first" is acting like 5 year olds pointing the finger at each other screaming HE DID IT FIRST.

We're not talking about RULES here, we're talking about breaking the law in ways that will put people in jail for a very, very long time.

[ElementaryPenguin]

29. I agree. But then we are looking at 4 more years of Bushler...

And it's pretty clear to me that Herr Scumsfeld & Co. cannot wait to nuke someone...and do every nasty deep possible to expand the PNAC Empire. I hope I am wrong on every count!

[tibbiit]

31. Neo-Cons and other Facist Republicans

Don't mind cheating to get their goal.
Liberals really woulnd't be that happy over a stolen election. I dont think we could rationalize it like the opposing side.
tib

[Zan_of_Texas]

32. Not the first time someone had the idea of demonstrating a weakness

Remember, some months ago, a fellow -- I think he was a college student -- decided to demonstrate how lax the airline security was? He smuggled onto the plane some stuff that COULD be dangerous -- maybe a knife? some bleach or something?

Then he told the airlines where it was hidden.

It did create a bit of a stir. However, the judge did NOT just pat him on the back and give him a gold star -- I believe he got a sentence.

Remember when one of the major news networks did the same thing with shipping containers into ports? They shipped the most egregious stuff into a US port, then said they had done it, and Ashcroft was not amused -- you could almost detect steam coming out of his ears. I think he really wanted to arrest the reporters.

These folks are not fond of having their weaknesses exploited publically, no matter how important the topic or how much money we pay to have decent security, whether it's border, airline, or voting.

Think creatively but legally! Keep thinking out of the black box, and coming up with ways to expose the weaknesses, before the election.

[Andy_Stephenson]

33. I know I know...

For the Federal Elections...

Pen, Paper and a day off to count the election.

[Nlighten1]

36. If you are ready to go to jail go ahead.

You may spend 2 or 30 years behind bars BUT you will be written into the history books.

[Toots]

37. I think I may be the only one here to understand your point

Everyone seems to take you serious when in fact it seems to me, and I could be way off base, that you are just trying to throw a scare into the Republicans who seem so in favor of this no audit voting. If they think someone other than them actually might do something like that they may decide that maybe it isn't such a good idea after all. Kind of like reverse psychology and all here seem to have missed it entirely. That is my guess anyway and the scare may do them a bit of good.:thumbsup:

[The Straight Story]

40. Which leads me to wonder

If they think someone other than them actually might do something like that they may decide that maybe it isn't such a good idea after all.

If Kerry wins (and personally, I think he will) will anyone here care about any voting irregularities? If something like 2000 occurs, but it goes to Kerry, will be out protesting and demanding a recount?

Perhaps what I am asking is - does our desire to win override our desire for fair elections if we win? If it looks like someone did a hack and it led to a Kerry win, will be out in force trying to overturn that and be fair? Are we promoting a principle, or are we more interested in a result? If he wins will we still want to double check things and investigate fully all of this after the election, even if it runs the risk of giving the other side ammo?

My answer(s) - If Kerry wins, or bush, we need to keep on the issue, work to validate how and where able the results, and even if we don't like them push for justice - because maybe, just maybe, those slick rove folks will cheat FOR kerry, get him in, hope it all goes away, and then when things die down engage it in the next election. Sacrifice the queen to capture the king basically.

I don't trust those folks at all :) Maybe I am a tad paranoid, but then so obviously is the government when they pull out things like patriot acts and the like. They seem more paranoid than me!

[Toots]

42. My idea is that no one should hack anything but if it is in the plan

I think that some doubts and fears should be instilled. I think that if/when Kerry wins it will prove that they chickened out or else just failed because of overwhelming support for Kerry. I want them to worry so much that they join with us to fix the situation so that no one will ever worry about such a scenerio. Right now it appears to me that only the Democrats are at all worried about it. we have already been on the short end of the vote fixing stick so are already gun shy. I wish for them to be as worried as us.

[The Straight Story]

43. Understand

But I think they are seeing this as partisan in some cases due to the heavy involvement of DU folks in it all. Sadly, it is they who are being partisan.

I keep going back to my favorite movie (one of them) 'A Beautiful mind' - Do what is best for yourself, and the group, and all will' win (paraphrasing).

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. My thinking on this..

since the Democrats in Congress haven't bothered to do jack shit about the problem, I think they have hired their own master hackers. JMCPO

[Junkdrawer]

41. You can't. Only insiders "hack" this designed in vulnerability.

I personally think "hack" is an unfortunate choice of words, but I guess "designed in vulnerability" is a bit wordy for headlines. ;)

[BevHarris]

44. Some points no one has brought up yet:

1) There is no law that requires election officials to disclose to the public if they think they were hacked. Therefore, "benign" hacks like that proposed by Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, where you put in graffiti (specifically, "Shamos owes") will most likely never be disclosed. Election officials will quietly erase them and pretend it never happened.

And, when there is a "glitch," who do they call? The VENDOR. I wouldn't expect the vendor to admit they are hackable, would you?

In many places, the operative phrase for requirement to disclose is "would it change the outcome of the election?"

If not, no disclosure.

==============

Now, as for the need to be an insider -- sort of, but not quite. The modem bank is vulnerable through RAS if you know the phone numbers.

The phone numbers are given out to tens of thousands of poll workers, and anyone can become a poll worker, so I guess that is an insider of sorts, but a very easy insider to become.

The protocols and the phone numbers are also found in some Diebold memos, they don't really change them as often as they should, and you know -- there's the human factor. Finding that stuff isn't has hard as you think. As an experiment, I checked the garbage behind two different county elections offices. They don't seem to understand the concept of a shredder.

Bev

(Hi Agent Mike! :hi:

[Andy_Stephenson]

45. Boy howdy

"They don't seem to understand the concept of a shredder."

Aint that the truth.