What is AFFORDABLE healthcare?

[serryjw]

I have been wondering this for a long time. I spoke couple years ago to a wealthy rethug that made this money in insurance and we argued this.
the new stats just came out
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&ncid=716&e=4&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/census_poverty

quote........
The Census Bureau's definition of poverty varies by the size of the household. For instance, the threshold for a family of four was $18,810, while for two people it was $12,015.Meanwhile, the median household income, when adjusted for inflation, remained basically flat last year at $43,318.
I'm single and I can't live on $18,810! How can a family of 3 and PAY insurance? If you live in a major city a family of 4 can't live on $43,318! That is basically $10/hour for each parent.


How is Kerry (or anyone else) going fix this probem? Yah most could afford $100/month....but that is not going to cut it.I don't see how we are ever going to fix this problem

[4morewars]

1. For starters :

1. We need to make health care non profit. It should be a right for everyone, not a luxury for a few.

2. The insurance companies need to be cut out of the equation altogether. Twenty four cents of all health care dollars spent in the USA goes to an INSURANCE company !!!

:wtf:

[UdoKier]

3. Also, hospitals should be NO-FRILLS.

My son had an operation at Miami Children's Hospital, which was being remodeled to resemble a theme park. It had to be a $50 mil. project or more. They had put in all kinds of fancy fixtures inside too.

Back in Japan, the hospitals were pretty much big boxes with no bells or whistles. They were clean and presentable, but not ostentatious.

I object to hospitals upping their fees to pay for crap like that.

[Kanary]

7. Some of that "crap" is important to mental health

You sound very angry, so I'm not sure you'll be willing to hear what I'm saying, but maybe others may be open to it.

Only one part of the healing process is physical....... that which hospitals initially were built to attend to.

A *large* part, especially for children, is psychological. FEAR is a huge problem, and the health care industry finally caught up to that. I think partly it was in response to Patch Adams, and others who have talked about the role of humor, etc, in healing. What may seem totally a waste to you (and some of it may be, I haven't seen the one you're talking about), but much of it is carefully planned to reduce the fear level of patients, especially those undergoing surgery.

I have a Czech friend who underwent serious stomach surgery in what was then Czechoslovakia, and after the surgery, was sent to a recovery hospital in the mountains, where everything was set up for relaxation and enjoyment of natural beauty. While that may seem like a luxyry to you, the Czechs were wise enough to understand how a serene environment affects recovery. Certainly better than what we have....... sent home before we can function, and inundated with stressful insurance crap!

There is NO REASON why the richest country on earth can't afford to provide pleasant environments for patients. NONE.

Kanary

[UdoKier]

11. Put in a window with a tree outside.

It will cost a lot less than all of tthe extravagant gewgaws.

We are charged for all of those things.

It should not be an unnecessarily grim place, but expensive junk does not equal better treatment.

BTW, what they did was not especially beautiful to me.



http://www.mch.com/overview/construction.htm

Of course they never mention the exorbitant cost in this page...

[Kanary]

15. Clearly, you aren't able to hear what I'm saying.

I hope your child fared better, and that you at least were able to be there for him/her.

I also hope that someday you will understand some of this. Maybe rent Patch Adams would help.

Kanary

[UdoKier]

34. There is a limit to everything. Why you defend wasteful spending..

...of MY insurance dollars is beyond me.

And I've seen Patch Adams. It is one of the most nauseating films I've ever seen. As artificial and sccharine as the tacky facade they are putting on the hospital.

I understand that the real Patch Adams did wonderful things, but pointing out the latest of Robin Williams treacly flicks isn't going to sell me on quandering money that should be put back to reduce premiums. There should be a sincere effort to reduce health care costs at all levels, but instead we are being GOUGED at every level.

[Kanary]

36. As I said, you are clearly too angry to hear.

did you read the post about the dr and the research??????

No, didn't think so.......

So, you stick to your sterile and uptight environments, and those who are interested in health will keep searching out the true alternatives.

Good luck with that uptight attitude. Obviously it's no use to try to converse with you...... there's no there there.

Kanary

[UdoKier]

37. Angry? I'm not the one hurling insults.

"Uptight." etc. - It has nothing to do with anger or being uptight. If the other poster is correct that the remodels are being done completely with donations, that blows my argument out of the water. But I have a pretty strong hunch that a lot of those costs are being passed on to the patients.

Personally, I want medical insurance that is as efficient as possible.

If you want Cadillac care with frivolous buildings - fine, you should be able to pay extra for that.

Personally, I'd rather have the money spent to reduce wait times for appointments , or broaden choice of doctors, or fix any nuymber of chronic problems with our health system.

The LAST thing that occurs to me is "Golly I wish this lobby had a giant aquarium full of sharks and stingrays!"

I'd hate to see the way you prioritize your household budget.

[Kanary]

38. Yes, your anger shows right from the first post, and the insults

you started with.

All your silly references to acquariums with sharks is just that...... silly. If you were open minded enough to even begin to listen there would be some room to discuss, when you were willing to look at the research that the other poster mentioned. Your arguments are beginning to sound as wound up and emotionally-charged as the same RW arguments we've all heard enough o.

As for your snide slander at me, that's getting a bit close to the edge of the rules, there, friend, and you would be wise to halt it right there.

Maybe someday, when you aren't so worked up over whatever it is, you will be actually interested in health.

In the meantime, as I said, good luck with that anger.

Kanary

[UdoKier]

40. I am angry at healthcare being unaffordable due to gouging.

And wasteful spending that I cited is a part of that gouging in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with making arguments that are "emotionally charged" so long as they are sound. I've presented my case rationally in the face of your bizarre insults.

I'm not sure when I "slandered" you. I never accused you of making "RW arguments" but now you hint that mine are such.

I don't consider your position on this to be "RW" or "LW", you're advocating wasteful spending and that cuts both sides of the aisle.

My argument is the more progressive, in my opinion, because putting an end to wasteful spending and gouging would make insurance more affordable to millions who presently can't afford it. (myself included)

In an ideal America there would be a single-payer system that purged ALL for-profit elements from the system, but it would have to be efficient to work.

I am interested in health. I want EVERYONE to get the preventive care they need, and if providing it in spartan but funcitonal buildings helps to make it affordable to everyone, then that's what needs to be done.

The "silly reference" to the aquariums is based on fact. There are no sharks, but MCH has two very large, expensive tropical tanks in the front lobby.

You claim to be interested in health, but all you've done is defend a very superficial construction job.

My wife went to the Baptist Hospital emergency room in Miami with an ear infection. (Yet another hospital that looks like the La Costa Spa but is supposedly non-profit)

After 3 hours in the waiting room, the doctor finally looked at her for 5 minutes, gave her a shot of antibiotics, and we got a bill for $1000!.

Luckily, being poor as we were, the hospital ended up covering much of the charges from their "indigent fund".

But don't you think if hospitals had their priorities straight, they could see people in an emergency room in less than 3 hours, and for a more realistic price?

When we were living in Japan, the hospitals were very plain, but they were clean, efficient, you never had to wait too long to see a doctor, and the health care premiums were affordable. The copays were next to nothing!

I don't pretend to believe that construction projects like I mentioned are the sole reason for the balooning costs. I also mentioned gouging on the part of pharma companies and insurance companies.

I also said that costs need to be held down at all levels. THere is nothing "RW" about that.

It's sad when people who have no argument hurl that accusation so lightly.

[politicat]

48. Japan has "socialized medicine."

That's part of why you were seen quickly.

We don't.

Therefore...

It has very little to do with the design of the hospital.

Further, there are serious cultural differences between the US-South and Japan. Those are another part of the difference.

Pcat

[UdoKier]

50. Well, it's quasi-socialized.

It works great, and I definitely think we need to scrap our broken one in favor of one like Japan's or canada's. Rich people can pay extra for mechanized hearts when they're 90 or being frozen "until there's a cure".

I'm annoyed by this for the same reason as I'm annoyed when they give my bank branch an expensive glam makeover. I feel like that money could be better used for giving people a little more interest on their CDs or passbook savings. And now that the bank chains are so huge, they don't just makeover one branch, they do ALL of them (WAMU in this case)

It's part of the continuing erosion of personal integrity. Banks or hospital administrators or CEOs are entrusted with people's money. Nowdays, there are increasingly elaborate rationalizations for wasting said money, whether it be Patch Adams, or the notion that a bank chain can't be competitive if it doesn't have all its branches in the same glitzy motif. And of course there's also a component of greasing certain palms involved...

[politicat]

47. I read it; doesn't seem that outstanding...

So they used COLOR instead of white paint. They had to do the hurricane paneling ANYWAY, so might as well make it look decent.

A checkerboard tile floor is no more expensive than a plain one.

The sculptural animal figures may not be necessary, but if they keep a kid from panicking and raising the free histimine levels in zer blood, the kid's going to recover faster.

Sorry you don't like it, but if it improves recovery rates, I'm all for it.

Pcat

[Kanary]

54. Thank you, politicat. There's obviously something else going on here

that is causing so much venom.

This country is certainly rich enough to afford to help a suffering child ease the pain and fear level.

Japan has a very tough attitude towards their children, and I can't for the life of me see why that is somethingn to emulate. They also have a *VERY* high rate of childhood suicides.

It's *very* difficult, as a parent, to see your child in pain, and scared out of their wits. If some warm fuzzies and bright colors can help ease that, even a little, then only Scrooge would find fault.

Kanary

[poliguru]

17. This is very true

My husband is in med school currently, and he did a bunch of research on this. The environment is extremely important to the recovery of the patient. It's especially important with children and patients who are long-term in the hospital (cancer, etc.)

And personally, I liked my private room when I had my children. I wouldn't have been as rested and recovered if I'd had to share a room.

[Kanary]

28. I'm sure there is lots of research to make the case quite adequately.

But, as you can see, there is much prejudice against it.

Merkins prefer to remain cemented in the Middle Ages.

Thank you for your post!

Kanary

[UdoKier]

42. By the way, I totally agree with you RE premature discharges.

Back in Japan, My wife stayed in the hospital for a week after each of our kids was born.

Apparently, here they send women home in a day or two, while they are still in some measure of pain. Unconscionable, but again seems to be related to the exorbitant cost of hospitalization...

[SharonAnn]

61. No, it's related to the exorbitant greed of the insurance companies.

They don't want to pay for it.

[4morewars]

8. Miami Children's Hospital...

is a non-profit, and yet they can spend that kind of money on nonsense. I guess it shows just how much money is available in health care, how many children could they have helped with 50 million dollars?

[UdoKier]

12. The treatment there was excellent, but how much more could they do...

had they not squandered all that money on making it look like Disney?

There is a playground in a courtyard inside. That, I can go along with...

[pstokely]

56. they are going after the rich

people who can afford good insurance

[FlaGranny]

30. Much of that kind of hospital spending

comes from donations, in my experience. An appreciative wealthy family with donate a large sum to "improve" the surroundings for other kids and make it less stressful for the kids. I don't know if that's the case at Miami Children's, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.

[serryjw]

6. Actually MORE!

quote......administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures(this is 1999 figure)
end quote.....
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/349/8/768
I'm sure it is another 35% for the doctors administrative cost DEALING with the insurance companies.
Is anyone old enough to remember the good ol' days that you go to a doctor and pay for it....and it was AFFORDABLE?

[SoCalDem]

13. Yes I do.. in 1980

I could take all three of my boys to the pediatrician, get them all checked out, buy medicine (if they needed it), and get out of the office for under $50.00

and then send the bill to our insurance company, and after we had met our $500 family deductible, (meds included), they would mail me a check at the end of the year for 80% of the amount we paid ..over the $500.00 deductible..

[LibraLabSoldier]

14. It is perfectly doable.

I have completely free medical for myself, and my family. So, either every American can join the military and get free medical (which Dubya wants to take away from familymembers, the bastard)...or we could actually go to a socialized healthcare system. That would not abolish fee based health care. The rich always have to have their things they pay for that is better than the rest of us. But it is very possible.

[UdoKier]

2. We live in San Francisco on just under 30K

Off course we are slowly sinking in debt, but we get no government assistance other than the kids being in "Healthy Kids" state health insurance.

I think for most families, $70~100 a month to cover the entire family would be reasonable, but at my company, it would cost about $350~400 to cover us all, and that's just the crappy HMO plans. At this point we're uninsured except for dental which I bought myself.

But if one of us dies for lack of care, it's okay. Thanks to Rush we realize we've no right to expect health care. And sky-high insurance premiums are worth it. After all, they help to pay for multiple redundant layers of administration, tons of paperwork just for a referral, overpriced, price-gouged drugs, hospitals getting remodels to look like Caesar's Palace, Viagra for old farts, exotic therapies and unusual and expensive operations to keep rich 85-year-olds alive.

As Rush and Bush say, we've got the greatest system in the world!

[rsmith6621]

9. What about Pharmacy Companys

There raping us too....

Have you been to the Drs latley.....it seems that their offices are constantly being visited by REPS from pharm companys.....The last time I took my wife to the Drs I counted 7 reps and they seem to almost live there as they are there everytime we go which is every two weeks.....

According to my nephew who is a Pharmacist they are earning about 125K+ a year......the thing that burns me is they give about 5k worth of samples each visit which the Drs give away very liberaly.....

[poliguru]

18. Giving away those samples is important

With the cost of meds, a lot of families - esp. uninsured ones - can't afford it. So the doctors give them samples instead.

I had a major eye injury for 3 months and went through loads of antibiotic drops. Even insured, the cost would have been a problem, because the only one that seemed to work was the more expensive one. He gave me tons of samples every time I went. And when I lost my insurance (due to a screwup at work), he saw me for my followup for free.

The docs hate the insurance companies and the med prices, believe me.

[UdoKier]

51. I don't have a problem with samples per se...

But a lot of times, doctors are given so much incentive to promote drugs to people that they don't need, that we end up with an unnecessarily overmedicated populace. Prozac and Ritalin are two perfect examples of overprescribed drugs.

Many doctors have the integrity to not push the newest, most expensive drugs on patients who don't need them, but some doctors' waiting rooms look like pharma conventions with tables FULL of pharma propaganda.

It's nice that your doctor hooked you up with samples. We had a pediatrician do that for us with our son once, too.

[serryjw]

62. Absolutely CORRECT!

My oldest girlfriends son graduated with a biology degree at 22 went to work for a pharm company. He will make almost $80K the FIRST year with new compnay car, cell phone and great benefits.....NOT BAD FOR 22!

[shrike]

32. How??

Seriously, that's quite a feat. I take my hat off to you.

[UdoKier]

35. As I said, we're not doing too well...

Thank goodness our rent is somewhat reasonable...

[sandnsea]

4. Median wages $33,000

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.nr0.htm

That's the biggest secret in America I think, EVERYBODY is BROKE!!! If more people knew what other people really earned, I think this country would explode. I think way too many people blame themselves for being low income without realizing over 50% of the country is in the same boat.

[SoCalDem]

5. Two ways to approach it..

Either give a company a FULL deduction for the premium, if they pay for health care for their employees.. Most businesses would probably jump at this.. If they could affrod to offer good coverage, it would make for a very loyal/grateful workforce..and the company could probably forego lots of raises, if the employees had good healthcare for "free"..


or.

ix-nay on insurance/hmo middlemen.. Each state could form their own healthcare co-op, and bargain for lower prices, which would then be offered to the citizens..sliding scale for pay..


BEST plan..

Counrty could decide that as a citizen of the "richest country" on earth, we have every RIGHT to expect decent health care as part of our birthright..

Basic health/dental/vision care should be there for everyone, and of course the upper crusties could still have their hoity-toity doctors too..

Probably a LOT of doctors & hospitals would welcome the end of the merry-go-round they are on now..

[Kanary]

21. Your first plan leaves out ANYONE who is NOT EMPLOYED.

Is that OK with you?

Kanary

[SoCalDem]

22. I "assumed" that unemployed people would be covered

through state benefits that should go to ALL unemployed people.. Oops ..

If the average family had an extra $500-600 a month that did not have to be spent on healthcare, they might just buy more stuff, so the employers might need to hire more people..

Spirals work in either direction.. The one we have now, is a downward one.. Turn that baby upside down..

[Kanary]

23. Yes, many Dems "assume" that everyone is taken care of.

That assumes waaay too much.

You seem to leave out disabled, senior and other "special" populations altogether.

All this focus on only middleclass issues leaves many of us completely out in the cold.

I ask again, does that matter?

Kanary

[SoCalDem]

24. Of course it matters

The only GOOD plan is national healthcare for everyone.. I doubt that it will happen in my lifetime..

Once the boomers have all died, it may happen..

The sad fact is this,. If you are very poor in America, and you can get to a hospital, you will get care..

If you are rich, you have your pick of the litter..

Anything in between..and look out

[Kanary]

25. Once again, you have assumed incorrectly.

Being "very poor" does NOT guarantee you health care. Hospitals are changing their tactics, now that they are mostly all "for profit". Haven't you heard of all the people who are being hounded for payment (at several times the regular rate!!!) because they accepted "free care"? People have even been arrested for payment. It's been posted here at DU many times.

Fewer and fewer drs now accept Medicaid, and the same is starting to happen to Medicare. For example, I can't even find a dr to take me on as a new patient, and because I'm required to have a referral to any treatment, that means I'm completely up a creek.

Yet, none of this is important anymore....... if you're not middleclass, you simply don't count.

edited to add: what has also been posted several times, with very few responses, is that there are huge cuts in public housing happening. How in the world are people without a place to live supposed to maintain health, even assuming they can see a dr?
How do you eat properly out of a dumpster? How do you get the necessary sleep to maintain health in a doorway or cardboard box?

Kanary

[SoCalDem]

26. I only "know" from personal experiences..

My friend's daughter-in-law had her baby (c-section) totally free of charge..the hospital has never even sent them a bill ..that was 10 months ago.. and she pays nothing for pediatrician visits..

and her brother is indigent, and has no problem seeing the doctor..

It may be a state to state thing..

I am sorry that you have had such a difficult time finding a doctor to treat you.. I am dreading medicare.. Given a choice of "doctoring" and dropping dead, I almost think I prefer the latter :(

Our County hospitals will treat everyone..but I don;t know how other states handle this..

[Kanary]

27. Then those people are lucky indeed.

Yes, people have actually been JAILED for not having $$ to pay the hospital.

I hope that the next time these things are posted here, that you will look into it. Since it's an issue about poor people, it's not popular here at DU.

My question about health and lack of housing still stands. I, also, may very well be caught in that. Does it matter?

And, yes, dropping dead is definitely preferable. The eye pain I'm suffering has made me think of that more often. But, one can't even discuss that here. So, I suffer in silence.

Kanary

[sybylla]

31. My neighborhood "non-profit" catholic hospital

hounds poor patients and confiscates their property, what little they have, to pay for "poor services". There isn't much difference between for profit and non profit around here.

[Kanary]

33. Thank you for speaking the truth!

I get so tired of not being believed.

I ask again, Dems -- does it matter?

Kanary

[Kanary]

10. What is affordable depends on where you are on the ladder.. of course

For many, high premiums are just fine.

At the other end of the scale, those on Medicaid who are stuck with a $3 copay cannot afford a dr visit or prescription at the end fo the month...... what they live on is NOT budgeted for such expenses, and nothing is left at the end of the month. So, even though their medical care is supposedly "free", if they need it at the end of the month, it just has to wait.

What is "affordable" varies.

But, DEMs are no longer concerned with those at the bottom of the ladder........ everything is now "middleclass".

What will it take for the Dems to once again be concerned for EVERYONE??????

Kanary

[LibraLabSoldier]

16. As citizens of the Richest country on earth....

The unspoken class warfare has got to stop before the actual warfare spills out into the streets. Americans will only be lied to and pushed for so far before they rebel. No one hsould have to choose between paying for food, and paying for medicine......

[DeadHead67]

19. My Doc' doesn't charge me for office visits. . .

. . .but then, he's a friend of mine, goes to my church, and is a Prince (not to mention Saint). He also gives me what drugs he can out of his closet of free samples. He knows my income is close to the official poverty level, and I have no insurance. I gather, from conversations we've had, he is also very progressive.

[Kanary]

29. Personal solutions solve nothing.

[Cleita]

41. In a sampling of 225 nation's infant mortality rate, a measure

used to assess the quality of a nation's health care, those with the lowest rates were at less than 3% per thousand live births were, Hong Kong, Sweden and Singapore. The USA ranks at 6.63% deaths of every thousand live births. Clearly, an industrial nation like ours should have better statistics than this.

[Hekate]

20. Universal health care should be like Social Security

It should be an entitlement, and both programs should be permanently safeguarded from cockamamie ideas like privatization.

A couple of things stand out in the perennial tussle over universal health care.

One is the argument that we can't "afford" it, that taxes in Europe are terribly high because of it. Excuse me -- Americans already pay more for health care by any conceivable measure than anyone else on the planet. We pay and pay and pay for paperwork and other administrative overhead. Over half of our taxes go to pay for the war machine; we never got a "peace dividend" when the USSR fell, did we? Cut back on the war machine even a fraction; cut out the middlemen; and universal health care would suddenly become a bargain by comparison.

Another argument is that universal health care would be "socialized medicine" and socialized anything puts America on the slippery slope to godless Communism. As if the Canadians and Danes are Commies -- yeah, right. We in the progressive community need to call it something else -- don't let the already-loaded word "socialized" cross your lips. Universal health care. The Great American Health Plan. Whatever -- something that conveys just how much we all need it.

"Socialized medicine" is rationed, so we're told. So's our health care, every bit of it. There are kids born with facial defects so severe they would make the kindest person recoil, and there are HMOs that categorically deny plastic surgery to them because it's "cosmetic." Old ladies enter the hospital for a radical mastectomy and are discharged within 5 days or less -- I've read that learning to care for the tubes that drain their own surgical wounds is "empowering."

I'm getting tired of being told that we have the "greatest health care in the world" here. Sure we do -- whatever you can pay for, you can have. Unless you're a US Senator or Rep, in which case we the people take care of it.

I think a health care plan that's truly universal would uncouple itself from employment. Small businesses really cannot afford to cover their employees under the current system, and that leaves -- what, 40 million uninsured at last count? A lot of people are laid off every year through no fault of their own, and trust me on this, COBRA is not "affordable." Covering health care with taxes means everyone would be paying into the system one way or another, but the major corporations would have to actually pay their fair share of taxes as well. What used to be called "public health" has gotten short shrift for at least a generation, but with TB making a comeback and deadly STDs here to stay, both the Congress and the public need a re-education on just how communicable infectious diseases really are.

I can't even tell you anymore what affordable would look like; all I know is my hubs and I are scared to be forced into retirment too soon. Just for the two of us it's running around a thousand a month in premiums and prescriptions. In other words, the entire annual income of a couple allegedly just at the poverty line--a truly petrifying thought. So we keep our fingers crossed that his department never gets eliminated, and his health holds out, and we manage to cross the finish line at the magic moment when his age and years of service intersect so we get health coverage and a pension that (God willing and the economy doesn't tank) we can manage to live on.

I do believe in co-pays, by the way, because they serve as a reminder that everything does have a cost. However, I also believe that co-pays should be on a sliding scale based on actual income.

Hekate
praying for the reincarnation of Franklin Delano Roosevelt!

[flaminbats]

60. Republicans see COBRA as just another handout!

To remain covered the premiums are usually more than $250 a month, and this is just for the bare bones policy! When it comes to denying coverage for those with pre-existing conditions without COBRA, conservatives say that getting priced out of the market is your own damn fault...

I hear many Republicans argue that insurance companies should have the right to treat those with medical problems differently after they develop a medical problem. Some even argue insurance companies have an higher obligation to their stockholders than to those paying the premiums. If we don't like that...just find another insurance company, it's a free country isn't it?

Worst of all Republicans can't distinguish between Kerry's healthcare proposal, Clinton's defeated initiative, and the Canadian system. Republicans now plan to free all companies from federal requirements that state if insurance is offered to one employee, a another employee can't be treated differently. Why should the federal government stop companies that fail to offer the same policy at the same premium to every employee?

Now the time has come to cast science and medicine aside. If someone gets Diabetes, Cancer, AIDS, West Nile Virus, or a wound when serving their country..it is only their fault! We should blame them, they should be ashamed, they should feel worthless and stupid, and they all should stop whining now and just accept it as another fact of life. After all, that is the patriotic thing to do isn't it?

[Cleita]

39. Well, I think we need a single payer system for health care.

Statistically, private insurers use 15% of revenue for administrative costs annually. Medicare uses 2 to 3% maximum annually in administrative costs. Yet we have 44 million uninsured and many more that are inadequately insured. All countries of the world who have NHC use 2 to 3% for administrative costs and they are able to cover all their citizens with quality health care.

Since the proof and statistics are available that privatization of health care causes unnecessary suffering and deaths from diseases that are curable, I can't see why anyone is dragging their feet.

[UdoKier]

43. Of course we do. It works great all over the world.

Annybody who says otherwise has had their brain thoroughly washed by the corporate media.

[MissMarple]

44. U.S. is so large and diverse single payer probably won't work.

A combination of approaches may be better. I think everyone should pay, at least on a sliding scale, for some sort of insurance. Private insurance companies should be regulated and innovation needs to be encouraged. As for HMO's, they were pretty much set by the government. They had to cut back services after government subsidies were taken back.
Right now, Medicaid and Medicare are in trouble because the providers, the hospitals, clinics, and physicians, are subsidizing the care. The federal and state governments won't meet the cost of the care. In the end we all pay more to inefficiently subsidize indigent care. The number of people who do not have health coverage of any kind will become a drain on the system as soon as they have a major illness or an accident. Some people choose not to have insurance, some cannot afford it. That's why I think a sliding scale is something to look at. Everybody pays into the system, at least something.

[Cleita]

45. Better minds than any of ours have figured out over

a decade of study that it will work. Go to this website and read everything that their research has yielded and see if your insurance company talking points still hold water.

http://www.pnhp.org.

Single payer health care by the government does have everyone pay. It does cut out the insurance companies and HMO's who are the wasters of health care dollars. Your method of bring together a hodge podge of private insurers together trying to grab a slice of the pie is what has led us to the inefficient, and wasteful mess of healthcare dollars that we have today.

[MissMarple]

46. Americans want a lot of different things re health care.

And many are able and are willing to pay for it through access to private insurance. It's not just what will work, but also, what a diverse population will accept.

I've read about the Physicians for a National Health Program, and admire their work. But, realistically, I think it's going to be a hard political sell. If something like that is instituted it would be over time, and with a widening client base. It could phase out private insurance companies, but not overnight. I'm just trying to be pragmatic.


And what is this "your insurance company talking points" about?

[Cleita]

49. Apparently you haven't bothered to look at the website.

This association of doctors and other health care providers' have come to the conclusion that to have an efficient single payer system, the insurance companies and private HMOs must be eliminated. The insurance companies of course in order to survive maintain that our country is too big and diverse to have a single payer system and people need to choose their private plan if they want and blah, blah, blah. This of course is how they cherrypick the healthy people to cover at the expense of the sick and elderly.

In fact the success of single payer systems in other countries of the world shows this not to be true. The fallacy is that this country is too big. Really, any demographic can be broken down into more manageable sectors. Big mega corporations that operate all over the world have proved this to be true. It's not your fault if what you have read is of course their propaganda, but I feel I have a duty to point it out.

[MissMarple]

52. So, wave a magic wand, mine's broken right now.

And where might I find this propaganda?

I'm not saying implementing this isn't going to happen, I'm just saying getting something like this through the political process will make the acceptance FDR's innovations look like a bi-partisan picnic. It may be good for the American people, the majority of Americans may even support it, but if we reach this ideal, it will be, more than likely, a step or two at a time. Since this is a direct attack on the longevity and profits of the pharmaceutical and insurance industries, this will not be an easily attained goal. It's just the politics of the thing, politics that also reflect the diversity of the American people. It doesn't mean I've been memorizing insurance company propaganda.

Our current social security system isn't what was planned. Politics will always intervene.

[Cleita]

53. Social Security works fine for my husband and me.

We also get a Medicare benefit. However, if we allow those entities who want to privatize these safety nets to change all the laws so they can loot the system, then we will be screwed for sure. Also, it appears Mr. Boosh and his administration of privateers have been dipping into the SS/Medicare cookie jar and it doesn't belong to them.

So why would anyone in their right mind think that these insurance and health care corporations are going to do what they should do and spend health care dollars on health care and the sick people who need it? I have just hooked up with a local group of people who see the need for single payer health system, and we will be working to get the private insurance business out of the health care racket.

It will take only a couple of well worded laws in our state, which has a progressive majority in the Assembly. Eventually, we hope to go nationwide. No one can stop us unless this country becomes a totalitarian regime owned by corporations poking their tentacles in every phase of our lives.

[MissMarple]

57. Privatization S.S. and Medicare would be a terrible idea.

And Medicaid, as well.

The core purpose of most corporations is to make money. You know that, I know that. I don't think we are at odds here. I think we may be differing on the means, on the process. Our goals are the same. Politics is a conflicted business. It can, however, produce results that actually benefit the American public, regardless of the efforts of the monied interests. Idealism leads with the lantern, pragmatism watches for the dead falls and the ambushes. If you guys think you can pull this off, KUDOS.

In Colorado, I'm supporting the amendment to reapportion the electoral votes to the popular vote. I also support "instant run off" voting. Both of those need to be in place on a national level. These are electoral tools that can help put progressive values on the national scene.

My original point is that what you are supporting will be modified. I was just trying to find a good way to have it modified.

So, thoughts?

[Kanary]

55. Sarcasm *always* helps to get health care.

:crazy:

Kanary

[MissMarple]

58. You don't like Harry Potter?

Perhaps I was a bit too "tongue in cheek".

[Kanary]

59. Theoretically, we're all on the same side here.

There's no need to try to run down someone who is working quite hard to accomplish decent health care in this country.

A little civility.

Kanary

[MissMarple]

63. So...if Cleita's wand works better than mine, I'm uncivil.

Somehow, I have the impression you didn't read all the posts. I don't think being told I repeat insurance company propaganda is either accurate or fair. Get a grip, I didn't "run anybody down".

I actually admire Cleita's idealism. And, it will take a magic wand to pass what the Physicians for a National Health Program propose as it stands. That is what this small part of the discussion is about.

[Kanary]

64. grip yourself, sweetie

I changed my mind. ..... obviously, we *aren't* all on the same side.

:crazy:

[MissMarple]

65. You just hate it when I say that.

Sorry about Mike. I hope he stays in politics. And get a grip means get a grip on reality, not on a person.

[CHIMO]

66. Good Health

I think the question rests on principles that may not have been questioned.
At one time windows were taxed. One had to be able to pay for air or sunlight coming into their place.
Who owns the knowledge for modern medicine?