Should we care about the "plight" of the rich?

[coloradodem2005]

Someone on another discussion board was talking about how the Democrats will take more of the rich people's money putting them under a tyrrany of sorts. I said that I don't care. It is not like asking for more money in taxes from them is going to kill them. They would still enjoy the same lifestyle and the same amount of power regardless. So, they won't be able to buy a third Ferrari. So what? I also talked about my difficulty finding a job and about how my grad school is being privatized by our beloved Republican governor and legislature, so I have no sympathy for the rich and their so-called "problems".

[Kanary]

1. Of course we should!

We better start taking up a collection for them right now!

Their plight makes right....... or something....

:hi:

Kanary

[brainshrub]

It takes a village to make a Millionaire.

Rich people use most of the services that we working folk built & paid for. I feel no guilt if they have to pay a bit more than the rest of us.

[A_Possum]

2. No.

As a person who could be considered wealthy, no, you do not need to worry about my plight. In all areas except health insurance, you are correct, a reduction in my income only amounts to being able to buy fewer luxuries. In my case, because I'm self-employed, I pay about 20k a year out of pocket for health insurance, which I think is pretty ridiculous, but so far I can afford it.

No, you need not worry about my plight.

I do worry about yours.

[mongo]

14. Kerry's plan for health care reform

may end up putting more money in your pocket, even with tax increases.

[DenverDem]

3. The rich got rich through a rigged system.

The rich do not have a right to be ever more rich. They got rich by exploiting the middle class and this bullshit about the rich creating jobs is absurd. The rich are all about concentrating wealth, by screwing the rest of us incrementally more each day.

The rich are fucking lucky we are so stupid that we are not killing them and throwing their bloated carcases out in the middle of the street. If they keep up their tyranny, that is exactly what they are going to get.

[jayavarman]

16. Scary Stuff

You write "The rich are fucking lucky we are so stupid that we are not killing them and throwing their bloated carcases out in the middle of the street. If they keep up their tyranny, that is exactly what they are going to get."

Pretty scary stuff. That type of rhetoric reminds me of Democratic Kampuchea . . . or Charles Manson.

How rich does someone have to be for you to murder them?

[camero]

21. The European elite say the same thing

That's why they have good social safety nets. So it doesn't happen again. Remember the French Revolution? Didn't think so.

[Nordic]

33. egg-frikkin-ZACKTLY

They've already had it happen to them once.

Us? HA! The Repugs seem to be asking for it.

Remember "let them eat cake?" Do the republicans even have any idea what that means? Or what happened to the woman who said it?

[Strelnikov_]

46. Bing, Bing, Bing

Ask the upper class of imperial Russia how concentration of wealth at the top worked out.

Oh, I forgot, you can't, because most of them, who were unable to get out of the country, were dead within 7 years of the collapse.

[DenverDem]

24. How poor does someone have to be to be murdered by the rich?

Ask the poor of Iraq.

[cmf]

49. They are lucky

when you concentrate too much wealth into too few hands, that's when you get a Revolution.

[SOS]

52. The New York City draft riots of 1863

will answer your question.

[strategery blunder]

4. Second that

My freeper uncle is in town and ranting about how the Dems take away opportunities. Like you, I believe in taking away the opportunity of poor Bill Gates to get a fourteenth private jet if it is necessary to feed the hungry kids who certainly didn't CHOOSE their situation.

[jayavarman]

22. Looks like gates can buy a 14th jet and do some good for kids

Some info about Gates' charitable giving- 11 Billion plus so far is not exactly chump change.

Endowment: $27 billion (as of 3/2004)

Total grantmaking since inception of William H. Gates Foundation (1994): $7,183,149,019 (as of 4/2004)

Total grantmaking since merger and establishment of Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (2000): $4,352,913,937 (as of 4/2004)

Total 2003 grantmaking: $1,147,548,375

Largest grant: $1 billion grant awarded in 1999 to the United Negro College Fund to support the Gates Millennium Scholars Program

Average grant: $903,711 (not including employee matching gifts, which are typically on a smaller scale)

Geographic reach: The foundation supports grantees in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and more than 100 countries.

More @ http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/RelatedInfo/QuickFacts.htm

[Djinn]

36. and the tax breaks he gets for that?

and the free advertising? thenthere's his "gifts" to people suffering AIDS in Africa, well it's a hell of a lot cheaper for him than allowing "intellectual property" laws to be watered down so they can access cheaper drugs. They also provide computer training but only in their companies products.

I havn't delved too much into Gates's "philanthropy" specifically but after working for a company that would be hired to provide companies and individuals with a dollar value (just for advertising you can add the tax etc incentives on to this) for any charity "donations" they were considering making - they generally got more value for it than the donation was worth - I got VERY cynical about so called corporate "charity" - philanthropy ISN'T about advertising, (what's with all the useless vanity charities and "trusts") creating customer goodwill, fixing up ones tarnished corporate rep or tax breaks.

[jayavarman]

42. Looks like he gave cash, not services

I don't know about corporate giving, the original poster mentioned gates personally, so I looked at his personal philanthropy: Here's the last 30 days or so of giving:






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2004 | 2003 | 2002 | 2001 | 2000 | 1994-1999

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Date Title
7.26.2004 Learning Matters, Inc.
$200,000 over 1 year to support a documentary production, 'Degrees of Excellence, Degrees of Mediocrity,' in part about the linkages between high school and college success

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7.23.2004 Trinity Foundation
$25,000 over 1 year to support a book project benefiting developmentally disabled individuals

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7.23.2004 Eastside Catholic High School
$500,000 over 1 year to support a capital campaign

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.21.2004 International Crisis Group
$250,000 over 1 year to support an intensive effort aimed at the immediate action of preventing a humanitarian catastrophe in Darfur

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.21.2004 Plymouth Housing Group
$1,200,000 over 2 years to support the capital campaign to build and renovate supportive housing units

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.15.2004 Council on Foundations, Inc.
$70,000 over 2 years to support the 'Building Strong and Ethical Foundations: Doing it Right' program

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.15.2004 Duke University
$750,000 over 5 years to support a professorship and athletic scholarship

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7.14.2004 Center for Community Service Fund
$30,000 over 3 years to support the Urban Enterprise Center's Forums on Race

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.9.2004 Archdiocese of Seattle
$50,000 over 5 years to support the Annual Catholic Appeal fund

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.8.2004 YMCA of Greater Seattle
$480,946 over 3 years to support an advanced computer skills training and GED completion program for high school dropouts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.7.2004 Everett Housing Authority
$275,000 over 15 years to support the renovations of the Timber Hill and provide services to families in crisis during their period of transition to a more stable condition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.7.2004 Seattle Preparatory School
$500,000 over 3 years to support a financial aid endowment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.2.2004 Abused Deaf Women's Advocacy Services
$617,500 over 7 years to support the construction of A Place of Our Own transitional housing, shelter and support for deaf and deaf-blind victims of domestic violence and sexual assault

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.2.2004 Low Income Housing Institute
$247,500 over 1 year to support the construction of Belltown View Apartments and provide services to families in crisis during their period of transition to a more stable condition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.2.2004 Seattle Goodwill Industries
$500 over 1 year to support a community technology evaluation project

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.2.2004 The Lighthouse for the Blind, Inc.
$500 over 1 year to support a community technology evaluation project

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7.2.2004 Providence SoundHomeCare and Hospice
$135,000 over 3 years to support the Parents as Teachers program

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.30.2004 American Red Cross
$233,780 over 1 year to improve the living conditions of those most affected by recent flooding and fill a gap in needed relief supplies by distributing clean-up kits, hygiene kits, and mosquito nets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.25.2004 American Institutes for Research
$1,449,039 over 4 years to conduct a second phase evaluation of San Diego City School reform efforts

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6.25.2004 Pierce College Foundation
$200,000 over 2 years to support the capital campaign for a childcare center

[SOS]

53. If you add the totals

for WH Gates foundation ($7b) and the Bill and Melinda Foundation ($4b) you wouldn't even have enough to run the NYC school system for one year.

The 2003 total = Iraq war expenditures for 6 days.

[jayavarman]

56. I don't see your point.

Is it that the government spends & has so much more money than any individual?

My only point was that "the rich" as personified by Gates, for example, are not intrinsicly "Evil"

The snippet below from usa today shows Gates giving away something like 50% of this new worth, Says that Soros has given away more than 60% of his . . . . . Looks like these guys are doing good things on a huge scale. Anyone giving away that much of their $ is huge . . . especially considering that they don't have to give a cent to anything or anyone. Now, they are all still loaded, but that $ does alot of good worldwide.


Report: Bill Gates tops list of charitable givers
NEW YORK (Reuters) — Microsoft founder and chairman Bill Gates and his wife Melinda are the most generous charitable donors in America, Business Week magazine said on Thursday, as the couple gave away or pledged a staggering $23 billion — more than half of their net worth.

Bill and Melinda Gates have so far given away over $23 billion, more than half their combined net worth.

In the magazine's second-annual ranking of the top 50 philanthropists in the United States, the Gates' are worth a net $46 billion — the rough equivalent of Hungary's entire gross domestic product. With the couple's having donated 54% of their net worth, Business Week dubbed them "the reigning royalty of a new class of self-made superphilanthropists."

Gordon Moore, the co-founder of Intel, along with his wife Betty, came in a distant second with $7 billion given or pledged, the magazine said. Billionaire investor George Soros placed third, with $2.4 billion, or 68% of his net worth.

The magazine's rankings also included philanthropic stalwarts such as Ted Turner (at No.8), the founder of Cable News Network, a unit of Time Warner; New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg at No.11; and Sanford Weill, the chairman of Citigroup Inc at No. 23.

[bleedingheart]

5. I say we get the pitchforks and start storming their castles

[Djinn]

6. their plight?

when I read the thread title I thought maybe a class war HAD actually been started and the rich folk where already being lined up against a wall.

sympathy for being asked to pay a fair share of tax...um nope, I pay a higher percentage than my next door neighbour coz she earns less, I expect that Rupert bloody Murdoch should have to pay more not less than me.

[bleedingheart]

12. ah but that's common sense...and many of the wealthy have none

I can't say that of all...as I have met some very nice wealthy people who actually put their money to good use....

[whistle]

7. How many rich people are there and don't the poor vastly...

...out number the rich? It's like 1% rich and 15% who support and protect the rich while 44% make the rich and wealthy and their supporters comfortable and 40% are just plain poor because the rich, their supporters and those working their butts off for the upper two classes consider the poor to be worthless or of little value to anyone. Now, who should care about the plight of whom?

[TaleWgnDg]

8. waitaminute . . . your grad school is being

privatized by the Colorado governor? wha? where's the outrage? this is, of course, state cut-backs due to Bush's federal tax cuts, correct? and no new state taxes to compensate for the deficiency, correct?

Lemme guess, your governor is of the political "conservative" bent, correct, as in Republican? He figures he can get by for re-election by only injuring the few in the state grad school than to tax the many across the state to keep it a public institution, correct?

How am I doing, here?

[coloradodem2005]

10. Bill Owens. He is trying to privatize universities in Colorado.

Going to CU Denver will be like going to DU if he has his way. He is a Republican. You can thank TABOR for it too.

[TaleWgnDg]

11. holy crap! what a damn shame . . .

[carpetbagger]

9. If tyranny=40% marginal rate, tyranny ain't that bad.

And of course no payroll taxes. Once you hit about 90k, that's for the little people.

[olddem43]

13. Anyone that has more than me is rich -

and I ain't worried about them any more than they are about me.

BTW I am middle middle middle income.

[camero]

15. The rich are the cause of misery

Any good economist will tell you that when money is hoarded, it doesn't circulate. When it doesn't circulate, an economy can't grow. Think of it like blood. It has to circulate through the whole body. If it doesn't, you die.

When they have too much, there's not enough for everyone else.

No, we shouldn't care about their "plight".

[coloradodem2005]

17. Some of them are decent.

Like the ones that are Democrats. ;)

[camero]

19. Then they shouldn't have a problem paying higher taxes

to live in a safe place to do business.

[Yupster]

48. Yeah Kerry's five mansions are

necessary.

Actually, all conspicuous consumers make me sick.

Look at my 24 cars. My private jet. My five mansions.

Jay Leno tries to make himself a regular guy and has who knows how many fancy cars.

If we really think the super rich should do more, we'd start with our own instead of saying we hate the rich, except the ones who are Democrats. What kind of &*%$# credibility is that?

[UdoKier]

18. The wealthy pay a record low proportion of their incomes in taxes now.

Top rates down from a peak of I believe 90+% in WWII, 70+% during Kennedy, 38% during Clinton.

Their tax burdens have gone down as their incomes have rrisen for the last 23 years. Conversely, middle and working class people have seen their real incomes decline as their tax burden has grown.

So no, I couldn't give a rat's ass about the "plight" of the rich.


This country is well on its way to becoming a 3rd world banana republic, but like the frog placed in a pot of cool water that's then heated to boiling, most Americans won't catch on until it's way too late.

[lanparty]

29. During the "golden age" ....

...

Yes, the golden age that Republicans would like to harken back to. Everyone went to church, mom stayed home with the kids and dad worked. Oh the 50s.

Union membership was the HIGHEST ever. Taxes on the wealthy was the HIGHEST ever.

Oh the golden age.

[BiggJawn]

20. I'm more worried about their diets.

I don't want to have to deal with a "gamey" taste when we start eating them....

[coloradodem2005]

23. Eat the Rich.

It's the only thing they're really good for. Eat the Rich. Take one bite now. Come back for more.

[BiggJawn]

41. And roast them on their own patio grills...

I really don't know though...I AM trying to reduce my consumption of red meat, and doing well with that.

Rich people probably have a lot of cholesterol in them...

[AndyTiedye]

25. Yes, Actually - Bush* Has Been Screwing Most Rich People Too

Sure, there were tax cuts,
but the economy sucks and the stock market sucks.

Nobody wants to buy American stuff anymore --
(YES, BEING HATED AND FEARED REALLY DOES MATTER, MR. BOOSH)
The dollar is in the toilet.

What was our country's most vital industry four years ago,
is now being dismantled and sent overseas.

A few business with close ties to the regime are making billions,
but what about their competitors?

Almost everyone made a lot more money when Clinton was in office.
There was a lot more money to be made, and by a lot more people.
The stock market had its biggest boom of all time.
People in quite ordinary jobs got stock options that in some
cases were worth millions. Executives have always gotten those,
but high tech companies have tended to be a lot more democratic
in their distribution of options than other companies.
Old money doesn't like that, of course, especially when the new
money keeps on voting Democratic.

Sure, we were all paying a lot more in taxes, not because of the
piddling tax cuts (mostly neutralized by AMT), but because everyone
was making more money!

The government was taking in enough money that they were also running
the biggest surplus ever. We could have cut taxes, fed the (then
much smaller number of) poor, built enough mass transit to cut our
oil imports in half and still have money left over.

Insted Boosh blew it all on Iraq. All of that and maybe a trillion more. For what?
The highest gas prices the country has ever seen?
Instability all over the world?
The loss of all of our allies and alienation of our trading partners?
What's to like?

It isn't capitalism when a cartel buys/steals the government.

[lanparty]

30. When the economy gets bad ...

... the rich begin cannabalizing themselves. The hyper-rich start putting more pressure on the rich and so forth.

[jdj]

26. I suddenly became interested tonight.

Not about their financial plight, but upon reading once again about the Kochs who founded CATO and CSE, I began to wonder, is money a disease...

I mean, at some point does it become like crack, or any other addiction, and eat you alive and destroy your soul.

I mean, at what point?

50 million..10 billion...100 billion?

I'd like to research this.

I mean, there have got to be signs and symptoms just like with alcoholism.

[lanparty]

31. The rich stole their money ...

... fair and square, they should get to keep it.

Well not everybody. But the Kuch brothers have STOLE most of theirs by pilfering Indian Reservations of their natural resources.

[jdj]

35. I'm even more offended by CSE and CATO.

And Scaife's orgs and media too.

They know the game so well, spread it out so no average citizen knows that all the hens are being set by one rooster.

It's brilliant, and scary.

[Djinn]

37. have often wondered that myself

people slag off wealthy "bums" for living off inheritances and doing bugger all work but to me it makes more sense that working yourself 12 hours a day (as our local rich bastard Kerry Packer allegedly does) when you already have more money than you or you offspring could ever spend.

[ComerPerro]

27. Lets start with asking them to pay their fair share.

Then we can stop and concern ourselves with the "plight" of the rich.

[RivetJoint]

57. What's a fair share?

[leesa]

28. They don't pay taxes. They are CHARGED a certain percentage, but they

never pay that. I want them all made poor with the money they have stolen and made off the backs of their fellow Americans given back to the people who made their money for them.

[Nordic]

32. I know plenty of rich people. I know them well.

They are my neighbors and my friends.

And they're doing JUST FINE. Believe me.

There is no "plight" of the rich. Except for all the stress about wondering what to do with their money. Where to "summer". Worrying if their wives/husbands are having affairs.

They've got money to burn. No exaggeration.

[Wapsie B]

34. Yeah the wealthy are so put upon in this country aren't they?

Overheard some repug come into the grocery store recently with his young son (5 or 6 y/o) talking about how if he made 5 million dollars the government would take half of it. Then he asked his son, "Now that doesn't seem fair does it?" Typical tired shopworn repug talking points. Poor kid's gonna need a deprogrammer and intense psychotherapy.

[Tsiyu]

38. You Know What? Bein' rich ain't shit

I've driven in limousines and cashed in food stamps once upon a time ( though not at the same time.)

I've lived in a house with seven bedrooms and two kitchens and I've lived in a camper.

I've shopped at the best stores when money was no object. I've scraped together pennies to buy a pack of cigarettes.

You know what? You're as satisfied as you want to be.

The only advantage to being rich is that if the Bushistas get their way and the End Times Cometh, they'll have a bit longer to hold out.

But think of all those bloated sots arguing over the last tin of pate, or the last Depends for Mama, and think how long they'll hold out in their special hidey holes?

I'd rather trust my woods than all the money they hoard.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Tell them their precious tax dollars currently go towards total idiocy

like a Trillion Dollar Military Industrial Complex and a $50 Billion Dollar a year drug war that keeps us the #1 per capita incarcerator of non-violent offenders in the industrialized world.

Personally, I think taxes are too high, too. But mostly because they're going towards total bullshit. Bring some sanity to our fiscal priorities, and we could afford things like a Single Payer Health Care system without huge tax increases.

Oh, and some ridiculous percentage of huge corporations pay no taxes whatsoever. How about making them pay their fair share?

Ask these complainers you speak of if they're really doing better now than they were under the "tyranny" of Clinton. None of the "rich" people I know can truthfully answer yes to that question.

[dpt223]

40. Definately not

Taxes will put them under tyranny?

Poor people have been under rich people's tyranny forever.

[newyawker99]

54. Hi dpt223!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[newyawker99]

55. Hi dpt223!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[rman]

43. ah "the tyranny of the majority" as Richard Perle put it

it used to be called "democracy".

Never mind that the alternative would be a tyranny of the minority, aka "despotism".

At least the neocons aren't making a scret of what it is they want.

[baldguy]

44. How much do they need?

A loaf of bread still costs $1 - whether you make $500 a year or $500,000,000.

People just making enough to meet their needs shouldn't pay ANY taxes - a family of four can barely survive on $50k a yr. Fuhgeddabot sending the kids to college.

I have no problem doubling the tax rate for incomes over $1M per year. The top 5% don't pay their fair share - they make 35% of the income, but they only pay 25% of the taxes. And this doesn't include the income they get from capital gains. Bush eliminated those. If you work you ass off, providing a service, building a product, contributing to our civilization - and make &100k, you pay $35k in tax. If you sell some stock, and profit $100k - doing nothing, adding nothing to the economy or society, just profiting from the random chance of the marketplace - and you pay zero. Capital gains should be taxes at a HIGHER rate than wages.

The idle rich are parasites. Ken Lay should have all of his assets confiscated, and he should be tossed out on the street.

[Yupster]

50. You've got some wild numbers in there

Zero percent on capital gains and top 35 % income only paying 25 % taxes.

The capital gains info is just plain wrong. Maybe it's confused with talk of an IRA or something.

I'd love to see where you got the 35-25 numbers from too. Are they just wrong too, or is there some formula that some group put together that used only these sources of income, and only counted those sources of taxes to come up with numbers so wildly wrong.

[skippysmom]

45. To whom much is given

much is expected.

That's what I believe.

[Strelnikov_]

47. Of Course We Should

How can the rich ever get ahead when the the poor have so much.

[One_Life_To_Give]

51. Need to understand

We need to always understand the rich. True they can give up a few more dollars in taxes, but we need to understand how they will react to any change in tax policy. e.g. If we change Capiotal Gains, will the DJI be affected? Will the rich shift investments between startup companies vs. Large Cap?

[Tsiyu]

59. Don't forget that

WE have a few "rich" folks who do care. My previous post aside, I know a few very cool affluent folks. They must be convinced to invest in new technologies.
Clean air means lower medical costs means more disposable income for consumer goods, edumication, etc.

[VOX]

58. Paris Hilton - the perfect spokesperson to address the plight of the rich.

Actually, she could be their mascot -- wealthy beyond any earthly worries; nothing constructive to do; not interested in the betterment of all people and the world; and proud possessor of the brain of a fish.

[barb162]

60. certainly

my heart is bleeding for them. See the "Billionaires for Bush" web site.

[YNGW]

61. Just Wondering

Are some people here advocating "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"? Because just from reading through some of the posts, I get that impression.