BBV: Validation of a recent Black Box Voting report...

[Andy_Stephenson]

About a month ago, Bev and I released a story that Diebold was going to have severe problems printing enough ballots for the fall elections. Over the course of the last two weeks I have conducted interviews with several key witnesses who have confirmed, in fact, that Diebold is going to have major problems with delivery of the ballots.

Here is the Situation:

Diebold maintains it's primary print shop in Everett, Washington. The capacity of that plant with experienced employees is at best 5 million ballots. The Everett employees are currently being harrassed over their decision to unionize. Diebold has fired many longterm employees and replaced them with temps. The specialized nature of the type of press Diebold uses demands experienced people. It is a digital press which speeds the process unlike offset where you need a plate to print from.

Diebold has contracted out with two other vendors one in Florida and the other in California. The Florida vendor was described to me as "not able to print a comic book much less a ballot". Apparently they have a capacity issue since they use an offest process to create the ballot plates.

The California firm (from what I have been told...still looking for confirmation) has a legal dispute with Diebold and does not have the capacity to bridge the gap either.

Now comes word today that one of the counties Diebold is serving...has ballot issues "significant issues". This came from a source close to Diebold. Looks like the meltdown Bev and I predicted a month ago is about to show itself. I will have more information in the next day or so...

pen, paper and a day off.

[bearfan454]

1. You aint kidding about pen and paper.

If the machines are used, we lose. It is that simple.

[whistle]

2. I have a solution, send the job to China...

...there is virtually unlimited capacity and the Chinese would even agree to print marks next to candidate's names without any questions asked.....:freak: ......oops, this isn't Free Republic is it? Never mind.:silly:

[BevHarris]

3. Another reason not to choose Diebold:

I have not confirmed this with a second source -- perhaps someone here can do so.

Apparently Diebold (but not Sequoia or ES&S) needs to print its ballots on the high end Xeicon (sp?) printers. One source told me there are only 15 locations in the U.S. that have those. Also, in many states, and with good reason, the ballot printing firm needs to be certified.

I'm still of a mind that they may be able to print on more generic printers, if push comes to shove.

However, the crunch, we've been told, will come in Colorado and California.

And things are beginning to melt down on some primary contests.

Bev

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. Diebold

we vote so you don't have to.

[Paulie]

5. Xeikon Printers

Google turns up lots on them. They are POD (Print On Demand) printers.

[BevHarris]

6. Any idea how many places have them?

Or perhaps, the "15" number refers to ballot printing locations.

Thanks a lot, and now I can spell it, too.

Bev

[Paulie]

9. Xeikon printers seem to be dead

Found this article from 2002, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3254/is_2002_June_1/ai_88681165

Can't find anything new, looks like that brand was bought for it's technology then killed.

Here's the website, everything is from 2002: http://www.xeikonamerica.com

BUT, just because that brand died, doesn't mean it can't be printed on current printing technology. A ballot isn't that complicated, not compared to say a 1000 page book. :)

[Paulie]

10. IBM used the Xeikon printer engine

In the InfoColor 70. See: http://www.printers.ibm.com/internet/wwsites.nsf/vwwebpublished/3170supt_ww

IBM stopped marketing it in 2001. The engine is the actual printing part of a printer. Another example: HP LaserJet's use Cannon (the camera/copier company) Engines.

[BevHarris]

13. well... maybe THAT's why there aren't many of them.

I've heard the reason they use these is that, with GEMS, different ballots are printed for different districts, but with the other manufacturers they put all the districts on one ballot, which is a little more confusing to the voter.

OK, I'm just repeating what I hear, though. This info (from me, that is) isn't ready for prime time.

[RedEagle]

18. Umm...don't think that's it...

"Single district and precinct.
The ballot on a single voting device shall not contain the names of candidates for the offices of United States representative, state senator, state representative, county council, or county commissioner in more than one district. In all general elections, primaries, and special elections, in each polling place the voting devices containing ballots for candidates from each congressional, legislative, or county council or commissioner district shall be grouped together and physically separated from those devices containing ballots for other districts. Each voter shall be directed by the precinct election officers to the correct group of voting devices." (WASH)

If they put everything on one ballot, then there wouldn't be the problems encountered when people are given the wrong ballot to vote on.

And I thought the problem with the special presses was that they were the ones that printed COLOR. Couldn't run them more than 16 hours a day, they need down time for maintenance and to cool off.

If color is the factor, it's downright silly. Just print the party across the top of the ballot, use a symbol, or just a big, capital,
R, D, L, G.....

[harmonyguy]

11. Print quality is essential - BUT......

I'm 99.9% sure that there's nothing wrong with offset, as long as it's done properly.

The big advantage of the Xeikon (and other digital presses) is the flexibility of not having to make a master for each print variation (ballot style). The digital press can be told to print 543 ballots of Style number one and 642 ballots of style number two and so on. Because these are relatively short runs for a print shop the digital press has an advantage since they don't have to make plates. In other words, it's cheaper!

Offset can work, provided it's high quality and done with the right ink.

High speed duplicators or toner-based laser printers are NOT suitable due to residual toner and toner-flaking that occurs especially with folded absentee ballots. Depending on the particular scanner(infrared or visible light), the toner issue can be a significant problem.

The other issue is paper. Different paper stocks offer different reflective properties, and this is important, especially with the visible light scanners. The surface of the paper has to be smooth enough to provide sufficient reflection. Not enough reflection from the paper surface and you end up with not enough of a difference between light and dark for the scanner to be able to tell the difference. As a result you get more erroneous which, with a central count system, the voter can't correct.

The thickness of the paper and the pourousness of the paper are also important, especially with double sided ballots. Pencils don't soak through the paper but some places insist on using Sharpies or other pens which, although often machine readable, soak through and cause misreads on side B.

Different paper stocks also frequently come interlaced with various 'slippery agents' (not our buddy Mike) such as talcum powder which not only gum up the printing press, laser printer or copier, but will also raise he** with the scanner, again especially the central count scanners because of the volume.

If I'm not mistaken, high quality offset$$$$ will produce a suitable ballot, but digital presses will produce the most precision at the lowest price.

I'll check with an acquaintance that does some of this printing and see what they use - I'm pretty sure it's offset.

HG

[BevHarris]

14. HG, you are seriously amazing.

And that other bit of info you emailed was great (though I confess that I do not really understand it, but can get it to someone who will).

[harmonyguy]

15. Thanks - I also sent it to Andy and to PP.

Not amazing, just a scanning/printing/computer tech-weenie turned researcher trying to do his share. I come from a long line of librarians/researchers.

HG

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. What does it all mean?

I am perplexed.


Holy Mackerel !

I understand this stuff. It is Basic.

[harmonyguy]

20. Got it figured now?

It looks daunting at first, but once you get you're head around it...
It's not Basic (as in language), but it IS basic (as in understandable by mortals).

HG

[Andy_Stephenson]

21. It reads like a book

almost...I understand what it says...not quite sure about what it does.

[ramblin_dave]

7. Are these ballots for optical scan machines?

If so, what is the impact of poor quality printing? Wouldn't the alignment need to be precise for proper counting? What if poor quality ballots go to certain areas and good quality ballots go to other areas - would this be like the crummy punch card holders in some areas versus better quality in others to affect the outcome?

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. To answer you

Wouldn't the alignment need to be precise for proper counting?

Yes.

What if poor quality ballots go to certain areas and good quality ballots go to other areas?

Miscounts.

would this be like the crummy punch card holders in some areas versus better quality in others to affect the outcome?

It could happen.

But the tabulator is the sinister thing.

[loudsue]

12. Good Gawd, DUers, you ALL ROCK!!

:yourock: :hi: I'm proud just to be sitting here typing a message to such competent, patriotic, world-rocking soldiers for freedom!! :yourock:

Thanks to ALL OF YOU who are using your skills and knowledge and PASSION to swing our country back to what is TRUE AND GOOD about America!!

O8)Prayers for your continued success and safety!!! O8)

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[rhite5]

17. Kick!

[htuttle]

19. Aren't these functionally identical to the standardized testing forms?

You know, all those 'fill-in-the-circle' forms that they hand out to tens of millions of schoolchildren a couple of times a year?

If they are printed digitally, I don't see any reason not to farm it out to any number of print shops that handle digital printing (I think there's 2-3 shops here in Madison alone that do digital 'one-or-one-thousand' printing). It's not as if they need to burn plates for each one.

:shrug:

[cthrumatrix]

22. kick for pen and paper