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CanIgonow Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:25 AM
Original message
I am very depressed by my thoughts today.What I see is the
country and people I have come to love and in many cases admire, are being turned from optimistic and kind people to fearful and in some cases uncaring people.I blame this on this administration that has destroyed our heritage and stolen our children's future.I was hoping that Sen.Kerry would restore the pride that I used to feel as late as three and a half years ago but when he said he would have voted for the IWR knowing what he knew now, I lost faith in him.I even suspect that he will have very little freedom to do anything decent with the relentless attacks he is going to be subjected to if he assumes office.The attack dogs that made Bill Clinton's life hell will resume their work.

As Gore Vidal said, the Old Republic that brought hope and dignity to millions of people worldwide is dead.We have become a nation of zombies.When we cannot muster enough outrage at the torture of children at Abu Ghraib and our political and religious leaders are silent we have reached a new low.Where are the Dietrich Bonhoeffers of our country?
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. I feel the same way.
I have almost given up hope for this country. I will wait to see what happens with the election and aftermath, but if things keep going downhill I don't think I will stay in this country.
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CanIgonow Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I wish I could do that.I am no longer a young man and have many
obligations to my children and grandchildren that I want to fulfil before I meet my maker.I was hoping that I could leave them with the feeling that they should be proud of our country and its heritage of caring for the less fortunate around the world even though it has strayed from those ideals on numerous occassions.I was encouraged when my first daughter, after her internship from medical school, joined Doctors Without Borders to serve in Africa performing surgeries.I am just sick of our militarism, our willingness to torture people ( especilaly children) and not even show any remorse while doing it.

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tanstaafl Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. 86 43 Elect John Kerry ...
Yo CanIgonow,

86 43 Elect John Kerry,
Anger turned inward is despair
Take the challenge if you dare.

Isntead of feeling sorry for yourself and sad about what is going on do something active. Don't expect things to change within one election cycle. It took a number of years to get to this point and it is going to take a long time to correct the problem. To get rid of these A-holes in congress, etc. it is going to take a grass roots effort from the bottom up.

Don't get angry, get elected!

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Old Republic is NOT yet fully dead
If we do nothing, it will surely finish dying, though.

Further, if we do nothing but despair, it is a given that all our worst fears will likely be exceeded by Totalitarian Busheviks.

However, if we stand and fight back, perhaps it can be stopped.

If we do nothing but despair, then it CANNOT BE STOPPED.

Unfortunately, as things get worse under the Imperials, the Deitrich Bonhoffers will find their voice, probably too late to do anything about it.
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jackieforthedems Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. We Have To Stay Optimistic
We can never give up hope or we'll lose our spirits. :)
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. I hear you completely, with one reservation --
Your observation "and in some cases uncaring people" -- that didn't start 4 years ago, and it's much more than "some cases". We have become a callous nation, with caring people being the exception, and it started at least 20 years ago.

As for where are our Dietrich Bonhoeffers -- they're out buying War Wagons.

Kanary
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. DITTO
while I desperately want Kerry to win the election, he ain't no Clinton and I'm really not sure he can fix the mess Bush has made.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. he ain't no Clinton
and that, to me, is a good thing.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You took the words right out of my mouth.
But, I'm afraid we may find too many similarities for comfort.

Kanary
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I disagree
Clinton has been the best president in my lifetime.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You can disagree all you want.
Many of us are upset with lives he wrecked.

Maybe your lifetime isn't long enough to remember some of the really *great* presidents.

Kanary
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I am certainly old enough
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 12:31 PM by Skittles
And Kerry is supporting a war, and will CONTINUE to support a war, that is killing THOUSANDS.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Then I would hope that you would look up the facts of what Clinton did
in regards to the welfare of many citizens of this country.

It has been posted here many times.

It would be good, for starters, if you would watch "A Day's Work For A Day's Pay". Look at the faces of the grieving families of those who died because of Clinton's policies.

Kanary
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. what is that - a documentary?
for starters, you can wonder why Kerry would support this piece of shit war.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes, it's a documentary. Please watch it.
Don't mistake me for someone who is happy about Kerry supporting the war.

I'm NOT.

That doesn't mean that Clinton was "the greatest".

Being critical of one doesn't mean another was just fine.

Kanary
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. I dont hear Clinton disagreeing with Kerry
please lets not make this Iraq War a litmus test again. Its not democrats who started this war.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Clinton's Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright,
said the deaths of an estimated 500,000 Iraqi children due to the effects of U.S.-sponsored and -maintained sanctions on Iraq were a price that was "worth it". That's a quote that will live in infamy. How could Kerry or any of his administration say anything worse than that?

Then there's Janet Reno, who presided over a militaristic FBI raid that resulted in 14 children burning to death in Waco, when her own behavioral science experts advised her just to wait Koresh out.

What this really comes down to is that many of our policy-makers are entirely comfortable with policies and actions that kill children, knowing full well the effects of their policies.

Who will kill more children in the next 4 years, Bush or Kerry?
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Hey -- who's the babe?
That sure is a hot box turtle.

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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. me too. n/t
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Here's a different view.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. WELCOME CanIgonow!!!!!!
DIAGNOSIS: Highly Transmittable Allergic Reaction to the Bushista Regime. Or PBSD - Post Bush Stress Disorder. You are need of some support and you have come to the right place. I believe I speak for most on DU when I say we all go through that depression/hopelessness phase from time to time.

Isolation intensifies the symptoms, as does watching or listening to any mainstream news outlet.

PROGNOSIS: You by Gawd better stick around and fight for those babes and grandbabes. They are worth it.

PRESCRIPTION: 1. NO "REAL" NEWS SHOWS FOR A WEEK (FOREVER?)


2. Check out the latest TOONS thread on DU. This is vital, and you must read all the cartoons in the thread- no stopping when you feel a little better.

3. Go visit http://alternet.org

then www.therawstory.com.

4. Then do a search for "Bush is a dumbass" and see how many likeminded people there are out there.

And keep posting your progress, for other PBSD folks too shy to seek help.

:toast:

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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Damn good advice!
Plus go DO something to help somebody. School is in session-go volunteer to guard a crosswalk. Do something.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Please read this quote
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 12:11 PM by info being
Here is an interesting quote about John Kerry from the The Stranger several months ago http://www.thestranger.com/2004-05-27/city2.html:

"There is an implicit wink-wink, nudge-nudge quality to the Kerry campaign in its relationship to liberals. Political exigencies require me to advocate certain things to get elected but bear with me, Kerry implies, because my instincts are your instincts. It's good, though, to hear him say it out loud for once, even if it's only about energy policy."

We have to trust him until the day after he wins...then we can hold him more accountable.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kerry didn't say he would still have invaded Iraq.
He said he would still have authorized the RESOLUTION...which said use of force AS A LAST RESORT. The resolution was only supposed to be a big stick to threaten Iraq with, and only war if Iraq still said go cheney yourself to us.

Kerry would NOT have kicked out the UN weapons teams before they were finished--they wanted 90 more days to finish, bush said no--and then we'd have known then what we all have known for months; no WMD no threat and we wouldn't be in Iraq now.

Nobody actually "voted to go to war". That's another bushism. As in total lie so he can spread HIS blame around on everyone else. The resolution was to give bush the power to use military force as a big stick to make Iraq open up and then force ONLY as a last resort which bush promised Congress and promised us over & over again.

The danger was IMMEDIATE and URGENT and yes actually 3 times we heard IMMINENT. So he booted the UN out before they were done! How is this a "last resort"???

NOW the lying scumbag bastard denies he EVER said it was an imminent threat, just a FUTURE threat...but still a last resort!!! But he rushed our troops to war SHORT ON AMMO and RIFLES and FOOD and WATER and BODY ARMOR and etc!!! :wow:

So we got troops without rifles and ammo rushed to last resort war for future threat. :wow:

And so many Americans are still swallowing this crap! And they "wonder why they hate us".

Remember when Kerry shocked the delicate ears & sensibilities *snort* of the rightwingnuttery when he said "Nobody expected bush to fuck up this badly"? Kerry and all the rest in Congress made the huge mistake of having believe bush when he assured them (and us) he'd ONLY use force as a last resort, but needed the authority in hand to make Iraq obey.

Read this:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_08/004512.php

And then read this:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_08.php#003276

And hopefully you'll feel better :)

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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Given the fact there were some politicians who had the courage to vote
AGAINST the damned IWR, spin doesn't "make me feel better."

I know that all the rah rah Kerry people want all the rest of us to feel the same rah-rah-ness, but it isn't likely to happen, so we need to find some way to live in peace with each other.

Kanary
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Well said! n/t
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CanIgonow Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
21.  Thank you all at DU.It is an honor and privilege to converse with
my fellow citizens about issues of importance to our country and its future.I have decided that I am going to vote for our Democratic ticket and carry on my work through my seven children that God has blessed me with( 5 girls and two boys).I plan to tell them that our country was founded on the principle that the will of the people is the highest authority in this land, that our fate is inextricably entwined with the least privileged among us,that we should shun arrogance, violence,pride and power and cast our lot not with the high and mighty but those in pain.If I can inculcate these values even as I withdraw from our political process I believe I would have served my purpose in life.

Thank you all for listening and thank you for your kind thoughts and words.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. There's the spirit
Of course Kerry is not a savior ( and don't we torment our opponents for claiming their * is one?). Just a man. But he is our best hope at this juncture. And his victory will send the best message we can send this season. We move from there, but we by god MOVE!!!!


Stay with us, buddy. Those seven kids sound like winners to me...

:yourock:
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ItsMyParty Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. You can change the administration, you can change the Congress, but
you cannot change the trash that the American people have become. A mentality of decline and too stupid to realize it has overtaken this nation. There is no sense of community any more. The TV is the gospel--if it's on tv it has to be true. They can't be bothered to be educated. Thinking is outmoded and replaced by entertainment and news that is force fed and interpreted for them. They don't get upset, they just adapt and do nothing including voting. They are rotting away.---maybe they deserve it.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. How Do you explain us?
How do you explain DU?


Yes, too many Americans have paste for brains, and many have changed this into gray matter and now post here.

Don't give up. Keep on the zombies.
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CanIgonow Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. On another thread, a post said that we as a nation have become
comfortably numb.This is why we don't seem to hear the cries of the mothers and children at Abu Ghraib.Your statement about the pernicious influence of TV was examined by Neil Postman in his book,AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH.He came to the conclusion that ultimately the mindnumbing effects of this medium would take their toll on our sense of community and our sense of outrage at offenses that we have been told are sins.When you combine this with the elevation to power of two ruthless opportunists like Rumsfeld and Cheney our fate was sealed.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Not only TV but infotainment radio....
When the history of our great nation is written, the polarizing influences of drug-influenced radio talk show hosts and their fans will surely be mentioned. This ilk transformed politics and ideology into a football-game mentality. Hell, I didn't especially like Bush Sr at the time but I never considered him the 'enemy'. The rise of Rush and the internet and the caterwauling that was raised when Clinton beat him was the turning point as far as I am concerned.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I was scared to death when reagan was elected.
So this has been a long time coming for many of us. We no longer sound like tin foilers when we bring up the imperialism of the far Right.

But they can't defeat us if we don't let them. And I have lived a fine, beautiful life for the most part so I say, as another warrior once said, (CH) "Today is a fine day to die."

Get energized. Even if the Bush dynasty made its fortune helping the Nazis, the Nazis WERE defeated. Remember.....
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
31. welcome to DU, CanI--many here feel like you do
and it is a good place to complain, vent, and formulate plans for the future.
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wrate Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
35. This is a WAR of IDEAS and everyone is invited, young and old.
This is IMHO an extraordinary article that sums up many of the problems that the U.S. has this days. Please read it, I think you'll see things in a completely different light:

-----------------"Learning to Be Stupid in the Culture of Cash"

By Luciana Bohne

You might think that reading about a Podunk University's English teacher's attempt to connect the dots between the poverty of American education and the gullibility of the American public may be a little trivial, considering we've embarked on the first, openly-confessed imperial adventure of senescent capitalism in the US, but bear with me. The question my experiences in the classroom raise is why have these young people been educated to such abysmal depths of ignorance.

"I don't read," says a junior without the slightest self-consciousness. She has not the smallest hint that professing a habitual preference for not reading at a university is like bragging in ordinary life that one chooses not to breathe. She is in my "World Literature" class. She has to read novels by African, Latin American, and Asian authors. She is not there by choice: it's just a "distribution" requirement for graduation, and it's easier than philosophy -she thinks.

The novel she has trouble reading is Isabel Allende's "Of Love and Shadows," set in the post-coup terror of Pinochet's junta's Nazi-style regime in Chile, 1973-1989. No one in the class, including the English majors, can write a focused essay of analysis, so I have to teach that. No one in the class knows where Chile is, so I make photocopies of general information from world guide surveys. No one knows what socialism or fascism is, so I spend time writing up digestible definitions. No one knows what Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" is, and I supply it because it's impossible to understand the theme of the novel without a basic knowledge of that work - which used to be required reading a few generations ago. And no one in the class has ever heard of 11 September 1973, the CIA-sponsored coup which terminated Chile's mature democracy. There is complete shock when I supply US de-classified documents proving US collusion with the generals' coup and the assassination of elected president, Salvador Allende.

Geography, history, philosophy, and political science - all missing from their preparation. I realize that my students are, in fact, the oppressed, as Paulo Freire's "The Pedagogy of the Oppressed" pointed out, and that they are paying for their own oppression. So, I patiently explain: no, our government has not been the friend of democracy in Chile; yes, our government did fund both the coup and the junta torture-machine; yes, the same goes for most of Latin America. Then, one student asks, "Why?" Well, I say, the CIA and the corporations run roughshod over the world in part because of the ignorance of the people of the United States, which apparently is induced by formal education, reinforced by the media, and cheered by Hollywood. As the more people read, the less they know and the more indoctrinated they become, you get this national enabling stupidity to attain which they go into bottomless pools of debt. If it weren't tragic, it would be funny.

Meanwhile, this expensive stupidity facilitates US funding of the bloody work of death squads, juntas, and terror regimes abroad. It permits the war we are waging - an unfair, illegal, unjust, illogical, and expensive war, which announces to the world the failure of our intelligence and, by the way, the creeping weakness of our economic system. Every man, woman, and child killed by a bomb, bullet, famine, or polluted water is a murder - and a war crime. And it signals the impotence of American education to produce brains equipped with the bare necessities for democratic survival: analyzing and asking questions.

Let me put it succinctly: I don't think serious education is possible in America. Anything you touch in the annals of knowledge is a foe of this system of commerce and profit, run amok. The only education that can be permitted is if it acculturates to the status quo, as happens in the expensive schools, or if it produces people to police and enforce the status quo, as in the state school where I teach. Significantly, at my school, which is a third-tier university, servicing working-class, first-generation college graduates who enter lower-echelon jobs in the civil service, education, or middle management, the favored academic concentrations are communications, criminal justice, and social work--basically how to mystify, cage, and control the masses.

This education is a vast waste of the resources and potential of the young. It is boring beyond belief and useless--except to the powers and interests that depend on it. When A Ukranian student, a three-week arrival on these shores, writes the best-organized and most profound essay in English of the class, American education has something to answer for--especially to our youth.

But the detritus and debris that American education has become is both planned and instrumental. It's why our media succeeds in telling lies. It's why our secretary of state can quote from a graduate-student paper, claiming confidently that the stolen data came from the highest intelligence sources. It's why Picasso's "Guernica" can be covered up during his preposterous "report" to the UN without anyone guessing the political significance of this gesture and the fascist sensibility that it protects.

Cultural fascism manifests itself in an aversion to thought and cultural refinement. "When I hear the word 'culture,'" Goebbels said, "I reach for my revolver." One of the infamous and telling reforms the Pinochet regime implemented was educational reform. The basic goal was to end the university's role as a source of social criticism and political opposition. The order came to dismantle the departments of philosophy, social and political science, humanities and the arts--areas in which political discussions were likely to occur. The universities were ordered to issue degrees only in business management, computer programming, engineering, medicine and dentistry - vocational training schools, which in reality is what American education has come to resemble, at least at the level of mass education. Our students can graduate without ever touching a foreign language, philosophy, elements of any science, music or art, history, and political science, or economics. In fact, our students learn to live in an electoral democracy devoid of politics - a feature the dwindling crowds at the voting booths well illustrate.

The poet Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote that, in the rapacity that the industrial revolution created, people first surrendered their minds or the capacity to reason, then their hearts or the capacity to empathize, until all that was left of the original human equipment was the senses or their selfish demands for gratification. At that point, humans entered the stage of market commodities and market consumers--one more thing in the commercial landscape. Without minds or hearts, they are instrumentalized to buy whatever deadens their clamoring and frightened senses--official lies, immoral wars, Barbies, and bankrupt educations.

Meanwhile, in my state, the governor has ordered a 10% cut across the board for all departments in the state - including education.

Luciana Bohne teaches film and literature at Edinboro University in Pennsylvania.


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