What is your best, most succinct argument to convert a young Nader voter?

[Stephanie]

I just basically lost my cool with the poor kid until I could only repeat "I will never forgive Nader for what he did." The guy was asking for signatures to put Nader on the ballot in NY.

Is there anything I could possibly have said to convince this young deluded idealist that he is pouring his energy down a black hole at the most critical time in the history of this country?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. hes being backed my repubs to make the dems lose the election

citizens for sound economy. i dont even know how to talk to naderites

[info being]

52. apparently

Here's how: get over your stereotypes and predjudices and talk to them like you talk to anyone else...with respect and understanding first and then reasoned, polite arguments.

[Zynx]

2. If Bush gets re-elected, the kid's getting drafted.

n/t

[displacedtexan]

3. The draft is coming. Are you ready? n/t

[Tsiyu]

84. My Thought exactly

With 2 Little Words:


The Draft

[Zorra]

4. Nader can not possibly get elected, and if Bu$h remains in "office".

there will definitely be a military draft.

[Caution]

5. Get your head out of your ass.

that's pretty much it really.

oh wait to actually convert them. Bush stands against 100% of what you stand for. Kerry stands against 25% of what you stand for. Nader stands against 0%. If all of the people who voted Nader last time, Bush wins and you lose 100% rather than just losing 25%.

[chiburb]

6. Come see me when you grow up?

That's what they used to say to me when they weren't saying fuck off kid.
But if he's like me, the answer to your question is "Nothing". 18, idealistic, know-everything... can't change him.

[info being]

56. Not with that condescending attitude you can't

Respect and empathy is a good starting point to changing him. Condescension on our part plays right into Bush's hands.

[chiburb]

65. Oh thank you, oh wise one...

Did you read my post or just the header? I casy myself (at that age) as a know-it-all, but you focus on my "attitude".

Learn to read, or don't bother. One more thing... did you post what I responded to? If not, why did you respond to me?

[calico1]

7. Did you remind him of the

razor thin margin most Supreme Court decisions favoring us have been? Most 5-4. And they'll be probably 3 judges retiring. A very right wing Supreme Court can and will affect us for far longer than any Presidential term.

[K-W]

8. You can spend 364 days of the year fighting to change the system.

But the system gives you ONE day of access to it, and on that ONE day you need to use that access, access people have died to get you, to do the thing that will cause the most good in the world. Then go, and work the rest of the year to make sure that next time you get better choices in the polling booth. Work the entire rest of the year to completely overthrow the government if you like, but on election day, use your vote to make a difference. Even if a Kerry administration would mean one human life saved, or one human life improved over the Bush administration, that is a goal worthy of any good man.

[goodhue]

9. The Supreme Court

eom

[Jacobin]

10. SCOTUS...AbortionRights...Draft...MoreInvasions..

And having an embarrassingly stupid pResident on the world stage.

Vote for Ralph and you help accomplish the RW's agenda.


It really is just that simple.

[serryjw]

11. If Bushit get re-selected........

all the green turns brown

[Killarney]

12. You have to go with the "big themes"

Two big themes that will help them see the light.

1) the next president will appoint most-likely two Supreme Court Justices. Out of the current 9 Justices, 7 have been appointed by Republicans, two by Democrats. Not balanced. WE NEED THESE TWO. If they retire under Bush and he gets to appoint, say BUH-BYE to America as we know it. Roe v Wade overturned will just be the beginning. Kerry will appoint liberals or moderates, not people that want to overturn R v W. That's the biggest reason of all to support Kerry.

2) have fun in Iran next year if you're under 25 and Bush is elected. The draft will come. And don't come whining to us if you voted for Nader.

[poliguru]

13. You're permitted to lie a bit

Tell him that in 2000 you felt the way he did - you wanted to vote your conscience and thought you could affect change through third party candidates. After Bush got elected in 2000, though, you realized the error of your ways. In a two-party system, unfortunately, there is not room for those candidates in a close race. If Nader wants to affect real change (and this kid too), he should try working within the party - many changes are made, and frequently, but committed individuals.

Or, you can tell him to move to France. He'll like their system better.

[soothsayer]

14. You really want to waste your first vote? n/t

[Stephanie]

18. Okay, he's not actually a kid, he's more like 25. n/t

.

[soothsayer]

23. Ok. How 'bout---you really want to waste your LAST vote? (hint hint)

Just kidding!!!!!!

[frankly_fedup2]

67. Good answer soothsayer. And sadly it may be true (nt)

(nt)

[mikehiggins]

15. Don't worry. There'll be another election in 2012

That's a line from the Daily Show discussing the odds of the 2004 election being "postponed".

Jon corrected Ron Caudry(?) saying the next election would be in 2008. Ron just grinned and said "yeah. Right." or something like that.

Most young activists seem to be familiar with the Daily Show and a line like that spells things out very starkly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. Are you sure he was a Nader voter or a GOP worker?

:hi:

[Junkdrawer]

17. "So, you got your CO status all locked up then?"

You'll need it.

[napi21]

19. Honor and integrity are great, but common sense is better.

We all know one of two candidates is going win in November, none of the others have a chance. If you don't want the current occupant of the WH to stay, vote for the only other possible winner.

[Stephanie]

21. He's arguing that NY is "safe" and this is long-term progressive strategy

Where have I heard THAT before?

[mac56]

26. There are no safe states this time around.

Anyone who claims there are didn't learn the lessons of Florida 2000.

[K-W]

27. Tell him to buy a history book.

Running a third party candidate isnt a particularly usefull way for him to express his activism.

If he actually wants to make the country more progressive, getting Kerry in office is a good first step. Supporting Nader is a useless diversion.

[poliguru]

47. How is that exactly?

Nader's failed to get on the ballot in most states. If anything, that hurts Nader's cause. Voting Dem sends the message that if Nader is serious about his issues, he needs to work within the party.

And there is no such thing as a safe state. Many an election has been swung because voters thought their candidate was safe and didn't bother to vote. It can happen anywhere.

[Justitia]

63. We are in the tactical phase of taking back the WH

It is way too late in this game to edit the playbook of progressive strategy. It is down to brass tacks.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

76. Tell him that Nixon won New York in 1972 and Reagan did the same

in 1980 and 1984. I actually provided a post on these so-called "safe" Democratic states and why New York shouldn't automatically be considered safe. It can be found here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x609785#612965

[drumwolf]

82. that argument would be understandable for Cobb and the Greens

Nader's not running with the Greens this year, so his candidacy is PURELY an ego-driven vanity affair.

If you ABSOLUTELY cannot vote for Kerry and MUST vote third-party, your vote would be far better spent on David Cobb.

[NervousRex]

20. Say something like this...

Hey Dude, the founders unfortunately created a two party system....they did the best they could, and we are stuck with it. Pick a side and work like hell to make it what you want it to be. I don't like it either, but it's reality, and sometimes grown-ups have to do things they don't wanna do. So vote Kerry or Bush will win. Most of all, don't mistake your dreams as insight.

[mac56]

22. Is the kid anti-war?

Point out that Ralph owns stock in both Raytheon and General Dynamics, major military manufacturers. Though he talks like he's anti-war, Ralphie feels free to reap the financial benefits.

[Stephanie]

25. That's good, thanks

The kid was complaining that the anti-war convention delegates weren't represented by the ticket.

[mzmolly]

28. Good point. He owns stock in Haliburton too.

:hi:

[mac56]

31. And oil companies...and pharmaceutical companies...

It all came out the last go-round.

Plus, he's a notorious union-buster among his own employees.

[mzmolly]

33. Indeed. Ralph is a closet Republican profiting personally from the

loss of Democrats. :hi:

The Union Busting thing always gets me because he talks so highly about 'workers rights' :eyes:

[Stephanie]

54. Do you have a link for the union-busting?

Thanks!

[mac56]

59. here's a few

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/1288.html
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2000/2000-June/011626.html
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2003w00/msg00039.html
http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#antiunion

[Stephanie]

71. thanks

that's one topic that perked up his ears, but I had no cites. I'll try this.

[Dogmudgeon]

38. Remember the U'we indians?

And all the crocodile tears Nader shed over them?

Because eeevil Al Gore owned stock in a company that oppressed them, exploiting their labor or some such?

Ralph owned the same stock.

Within minutes of that news coming out, those tears were dried and the poor, oppressed U'we indians were forgotten.

Ralph also has a long history of exploiting his own workers.

Once upon a time, Nader did some beneficial work for this country and its people. But that was long ago.

--bkl

[mzmolly]

24. I think you need an expert in mind control for this one. It's really not

likely that you'll convert someone who is self centered.

Nader voters don't care about the people of this or any country first and foremost. What they care about is reforming the duopoly :eyes: and they say things like, "if people suffer that's the way it's got to be for real change" :puke: Interestingly enough, the people who suffer tend NOT to be them or their loved ones. Go figure.

[Stephanie]

68. I think you've got it right

He's not arguing with logic. There's really no point in arguing with him and I've pretty much resolved not to. If you don't get it now you're never going to get it. It's like arguing with a Bushbot.

[noiretextatique]

29. use nader's own words

and ask him if he's concerned that his vote for nader may actually help bush. nader advised those who think so to vote for kerry.

[CBHagman]

30. Five percent of the vote and $3 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Support for Nader will not translate into policy changes or a more progressive tone in the country. It will merely split the vote up. Third-party candidates, from Teddy Roosevelt as a Bull Mooser to John Anderson as an independent to Ross Perot as a Reform Party candidate, are simply also-rans.

We have a winner-take-all system, not proportional representation. There will be no set number of seats for Greens or Right to Life or Reform Party. There will be no Cabinet office for Ralph Nader. For crying out loud, he's 70 years old and hasn't held a government position in years. What do his supporters think is going to happen?

In addition, no one gets anything done in government without finding a way to wield power and/or create allies. You have to be willing to create blocs of voters, woo members of the other party, or find a way to steamroll over everybody. Sulky, go-it-alone routines are not going to work.

Nader has been more than willing to create enemies, and not in a good way. He doesn't reach out to potential allies, he drives them away! It accomplishes little more than division and anger.

More than once I've heard Nader compared to Harold Stassen. Look at the current issue of the Washington Monthly for Charlie Peters's take on this. And if the Naderite wants to know who Charlie Peters is, tell him/her that Peters has been covering politics since before the Naderite was born.

[Killarney]

34. Really good post.

:)

[mac56]

75. Good analysis.

In addition, no one gets anything done in government without finding a way to wield power and/or create allies. You have to be willing to create blocs of voters, woo members of the other party, or find a way to steamroll over everybody. Sulky, go-it-alone routines are not going to work.

See also: Ventura, Jesse

[rocktivity]

32. Tell them that every vote for Nader

increases their chances of ducking bullets in Iran as early as next spring.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Justitia]

35. Well, smartass insults won't win him over

But Practical Realism might.

I would explain how admirable Nader's past work (and revolutionary consumer protections work) is, and how they are a dovetailed product of the democratic ideals of our nation's former democratic glory.

However, we are in the midst of a return to the Dark Ages and we are on the cusp of All Being Lost.
The Supreme Court is an excellent example as is the blueprint for Perpetual War.

His young idealism to be both admired and fostered, for it is only the idealists who have ever accomplished anything, but they got the job done by being practical realists and that is what we need to guide our idealism in this election. The very future of our country is at stake, and that is NOT hyperbole.

I think this would appeal to where he is mentally versus telling him he is "throwing his vote away", etc., even though we know that is the reality of a Nader vote (subconsciously, he knows that too).

You gotta go where the people are, and he is still in the salvageable category if he isn't considering Bush a viable candidate - doncha think?

[info being]

49. I tried to explain that for days in a row on DU several months ago

All I got was smartass insults from supposed practical Dems. People here get very Freeperish when it comes to Nader. If we treat Bush supporters the same way, I can understand why we turn them off.

[Justitia]

57. I'm for amassing as many Dem votes as possible in Nov

I'm a Practical Idealist.

Silly me, I think we'd be smart to get Nader voters to vote for Kerry - we are not incompatible ideology wise, and there is victory in the numbers. Have we learned nothing from history (2000)?

Having said that, I have an almost impossible time finding common ground with Bush supporters, especially at this late date. If they are still for Bush now, I write them off as a lost cause. I try not to "harden" their support for Bush by doing the "me vs. you morons" debate, although that is what they are.

If they are going to switch from Bush lovers to Kerry supporters between now and Nov, they are going to have to do it without me, I'm conserving my energy for the ones who seem to have both a brain and a conscience - I consider ANYONE ELSE in that group up for grabs.

[info being]

58. But Nader-supporters tend to be quite smart. Idealist, but smart.

[Justitia]

60. And I agree - we just need a good dose of Practical Realism

to seal the deal.

I'm a Progressive - I can jump up and down and scream on the sidelines about our party or I can devise a real way to get to the finish line.

Being a Progressive is about getting the job done. If that means enlightening potential Nader voters about why they should vote for Kerry, so be it - I'm focused on a Democratic Gov't this November.

Pissing off someone who could be an impassioned Democrat before the age of 30 is committing political suicide.

Such an idealistic young person is ripe for the picking.
Do we want to send him into the arms of the Republicans or the Naders that they enable?

[LoZoccolo]

36. Say "sure I'll sign it".

Then take the clipboard and RUN!

[LoZoccolo]

37. In New York, duck into a cab.

Nader supporters never have any money, so they can't jump in another one and trail you.

[mac56]

40. Whaddya mean?! They all have their daddies' credit cards!

:evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

39. P.S. I'm being sarcastic.

I don't want the FEC visiting my house!

[Justitia]

41. He may be one of the Progressive Democrats of the future

Why squander the opportunity to get him solidly in our corner?

Explain the fight for Democracy as an ongoing battle.

We have the Strategic level where idealism factors into our long-term goals for the country and the output is a "mission stmt" (aka platform).

And we have the Tactical (Operational) level - practical, concrete steps to achieve our purposes (the Democratic ideals).

Voting for Nader this year is antithetical to our tactical plan to fulfill our Strategic goal within the next few months time.

Democracy is a long-term deal, with long-term strategies and short-term tactics.
Nader votes are roadblocks in the part of the road you can clearly see just ahead of you.

[JHB]

42. The Draft

"Yeah, sure kid. Just remember to send me some mail from the Zagros Front when Bush drafts your butt to invade Iran."

[frankly_fedup2]

70. Yeah, I've heard that the no-longer great Matinee Idol . . .

(Better known as AKA Donald Rumsfield), will have the draft back into effect by March of 2005. Cause we will be going into Iran if Bush is reelected.

Single Females age 18 should also be drafted. Doesn't anyone agree with that?

I also heard that there would be no deferments. No deferments for college. No deferments because you marriage, children, college, and now I believe no deferment for gender.

Can you just see those Bush girls flying those planes over there?

[Bandit]

43. Show him the Debt Clock

Ask him how Nader can fix it without support from Congress. America is going bankrupt at $20,000 a second. We spend more on interest on the Debt than we do on the Defense Budget every year. Defense is necessary but the Debt is not.

[DrWeird]

44. "You're a fucking idiot."

and

"Go back to Nazi Germany you fucking Bush supporter."

[Blecht]

45. you took the words right outta my mouth ...

... only you were a little too tactful for my taste.

[info being]

50. Actually you're the fucking idiot.

You care more about being right than being effective. You have a lot in common with Nader voters actually.

[DrWeird]

51. Voting for Nader is effective?

What the fuck planet are you on?

[info being]

53. I thought you were a little slow

What is your goal? Is your attitidue effective in helping you reach that goal? Do you understand my point or do I need to spell it out?

[DrWeird]

64. Oh, I understand your point.

You're a Nader supporter and you're upset that we're mean to Nader supporters.

[genius]

46. Nader cannot win and Bush will kill us all.

[info being]

48. Simple. "Nader may be right, but a vote for Nader in 2004 is wrong."

You have to establish that you understand WHY someone supports Nader. Then they'll listen. You certainly can't get hostile, mock, or bully Nader supporters if you want to persuede them.

[welshTerrier2]

80. excellent !!

without respect, there can be no influence ...

democrats should honor many of the values Nader espouses ... that we don't respect him personally or that we think he's doing great harm by running should not cloud our vision to the many important issues Nader raises ... Nader understands that we live in a corporate-controlled state that does not act in the best interests of the American people ... that, if nothing else, should be respected ...

[seabeyond]

55. ready for the draft.........bubba you

wink. iran is next

[TreasonousBastard]

61. Several possibilities...

First, find out if he really believes in Nader or is working for a temp agency.

If he's working for a temp agency, explain nicely that you will sign (but with a false name and address) so he gets credit for signatures and hope that he finds more appealing and productive work when Kerry wins.

If he is a true believer, refuse to sign, saying simply that you so not believe in lost causes.

Nothing will change his mind in the few moments you have with him, but if you know of one, you might perhaps invite him to some Democratic function where the deprogramming can begin.

Of course, you could always just whup his ass. Beat some sense into the little asshole.

[Stephanie]

72. Not a temp - just a zealous Green

With no common sense. I thought even the Greens had dumped Nader?

I might be able to whup him. Assuming that he's a gentleman and won't hit back! lol!

[TreasonousBastard]

73. Most Greens don't want anything to do with Nader..

since he cost them federal election money by not getting 5% of the vote last time.

If he's a Green and still supports Nader, he's a lost cause, even to his own people.

Why isn't he supporting the Green candidate?

[Canuckistanian]

62. Somebody put it well a couple of weeks ago

A vote for Nader is a vote for .... nobody.

If you're trying to change the system, forget it. A vote for Nader will not change the system.

If you're trying to help the ecology, forget it. A vote for Nader will not do the ecology any good.

Name any other issue that Nader is championing and you will lose. All of it.

Your opponent has a party, a media machine, the power of three branches of government. And nobody to split THEIR vote.

Therefore, voting for someone with maybe 4% of national support may make a nice statement, it will ultimately be a footnote in political history.

[frankly_fedup2]

66. Well, I would honestly tell you that you might as well not vote at all . .

because Nadar doesn't have a chance in winning. I would also tell you that you, that by voting for Nadar, you have hurt the chances for Kerry to win, and have helped to get George W. Bush reelected.

If you can vote for Nadar, after Bush has alienating us from the rest of the world, lying to us about why we went to Iraq, young Americans being killed everyday for regime change (which the U.S. has NEVER invaded a country before, trying to force His GOD down everyone's throat; and he, his administration of greedy capitalists which include his friends and families as well, then vote for Nadar and I hope you have a clear conscience.

[jpgray]

69. Two things

"There is a difference between Kerry and Bush. That difference, magnified by the power of the office, is significant and worth voting on."

I never understood the idea of a vote as having to be a pure expression of values--to me that's what the primaries are. In the general election it's time to put the most sympathetic guy in office. By a landslide, that's Kerry. The Republicans love failed third party candidacies--no amount of them will stop their consolidation of power. Making the right-wing authoritarians lose is worth my vote.

[jukes]

74. ballpeen

}(

[rman]

77. for better or for worse, Nader simply doesn't have a chance to be elected

So every vote for Nader is one vote less to remove Bush.

[LisaL]

79. Republicans want him to run

I would just say, even republicans are smarter than you.
They know if Nader runs it increases Bushes chances of winning.

[blondeatlast]

78. Vote for Nader=vote AGAINST Nader's accomplishments/ideals.

Which president is ACTIVELY working to eviscerate anti-trust law, consumer and environmental protection, and ACTIVELY working to provide MORE corporate welfare?

Kerry may not increase these things (he won't try to destroy them, either) but the Keenebunkport Kowboy has already PROVED he will destroy as many of these as he can possibly manage.

Leaves them dumbstruck. Try it.

I'm sick of the Ivory Snow political purists who've never had to actually support a family or stretch the paycheck to get their car repaired or their sick kid to the hospital.

The nation's in a CRISIS, people.

[beyurslf]

81. George Bush=Bad Supreme Court Justices=Decisions that affect you

until you are in your 50's or 60's.

[Ameridansk]

83. How about this. . .

If you vote for Nader, and Kerry loses by one vote, I'm coming to kill you!