Is depression real?

[Dookus]

It was asserted in another thread, now grown past the point of easy reading, that the concept of depression was invented by pharmaceutical companies in order to sell drugs.

I'm not talking about "the blues". I'm talking about clinical depression. Does it really exist or is it a modern marketing invention?

[K-W]

1. Such questions dont have simple answers.

Is depression real, yes. Is it partly an invention by pharmaceutical companies, yes.

It is impossible to seperate behavior from context.

[TopesJunkie]

8. It existed long before medicine to Tx it did.

So let's stop pretending some big conspiracy is out there, OK?

[Dookus]

11. Correct

there are accounts of depression that go back hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

[TrustingDog]

16. a truth, but the extent of it now is questionable....

in my mind.

think viagra.
how'd so many men 'get it up' before viagra - and explain the population explosion.

trust no one.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. We've all heard about young men taking Viagra

to "enhance performance," but most older men taking it probably need it and were not able to have sex before Viagra. They were younger when they played a part in the population explosion. Your question is akin to looking at the long hair of the sixties and seventies and asking why men are now using formulas for hair growth.

[K-W]

13. I dont think I suggested a conspiricy.

But if you think that the drug companies dont create demand for thier drugs you live in a dream world.

[TopesJunkie]

24. LOL! "I would never suggest a conspiracy, but..."

Oh boy.

:)

[K-W]

31. Umm, I didnt suggest a conspiricy, so please stop twisting my words.

Pharmacutical companies have drugs that treat depression. They advertise them and advertise the symptoms of depression which, are fairly common symptoms amongst people who do not have any neurological problems. They encourage doctors to perscribe thier medicines. It isnt a conspiricy, its marketing. But the end result is alot of people on medicine that they dont neccessarily need and alot of people lumped under a diagnosis that does not yet indicate an understood condition.

[TopesJunkie]

42. Then what would you call it?

[K-W]

46. Marketing

or did you not read my post?

All companies spend money to try and create demand for thier products. Trying to convince me I need a new knife set, domino's pizza, and prozac.

[TopesJunkie]

49. Hmm.

So your suggestion that it's all the fault of drug companies is marketing?

Very interesting.

[K-W]

56. I dont think I suggested anything of the sort, but

I dont really understand your post, so im not positive.

[TopesJunkie]

61. Read your first two posts.

[K-W]

65. Im giving you one last chance to articulate a point.

"So your suggestion that it's all the fault of drug companies is marketing?"

This is not a cogent sentance, I have no idea what it means. Im sure its probably a typo, but you have not said anything that I could understand in your last two posts.

And I will not go reread my posts.

Why dont you articulate a point that i can respond to, if not there is no point in discussing anything with you.

[TopesJunkie]

69. Basically, it appears that you're denying what you wrote.

Go with your game playing. The rest of the board can see your conspiracy theories for all that they're not worth, even if you are in denial.

[K-W]

86. Your continued refusal to make anything resembling a point,

choosing instead to flame my posts without even supporting your flames shows me you have no intention of discussing anything.

I have not denied anything nor have I presented any conspiricy theories. You clearly have no understood my posts and rather than presenting the parts you THINK show me contradicting myself, you just arrogantly dismiss me.

I would try to rephrase my point, but you dont seem to want to discuss anything. All you have done is flame me and respond with unreadable posts.

[Selwynn]

190. This is the most ridiculous thread of non-argumentation I've ever read.

Read my lips pal: he said, its partly real,partly the invention of drug companies.

NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Depression is a real experience, which has been co-opted and exploited and turned into a profit-driven - not health driven - racket by the drug industry. That doesn't mean real people don't suffer. That doesn't mean that real people can't get help by finding the right medication for their condition. It does mean that more people would be helped of the drug companies stopped exploiting the situation.

Now, put that in your book.

[HuckleB]

193. Actually, I struggle to see how this claim plays out in the real world.

Drug companies don't prescribe. Yes, they market medication, and I certainly have some very big issues with how they do so, but I don't see how a diagnosis can be "co-opted and exploited" by "the drug industry," unless you are saying that prescribers (en masse) are not following the dictum to do no harm.

Can you explain what I may be missing?

[Selwynn]

203. I am sort of saying that.

Prescripters are not always putting patients first.

But my larger point seems to have been missed -that was was simply to comment that this guy giving KW a hard time is acting like an idiot.

KW's claim was that there is truth both to the reality that depression is a real deal, as well as truth to the realities that the medical industry exploits the situation in many instances.

By the way, drug companies DO prescribe. Every time the advertise about how proxail or zoloft my be the miracle answer for your life, they are prescribing a course of action, asking people to go to their doctors and ask for the drug.

Please remember though - my real point here is that K's saying that it is a complicated issue is not advocacy of a "conspiracy theory" which was the ridiculous chain of discussion going on here. That's really all I'm saying.

[HuckleB]

204. OK.

I wasn't asking about the little tit for tat going on between the other two. That's just fun and games, and I don't feel like playing right now. Anyway, you write, "Prescripters are not always putting patients first." Which is true, as far as it goes. As with any profession, some folks don't pull their weight. Still, as I noted in my first post, in order for drug companies to push a product via a diagnosis far and wide, they would need physicians and nurse practitioners to fall in line en masse. I don't see this as a reality, though you may. My experience with health care practitioners is that they fight like hell for their patients, with insurance carriers, to obtain services of all types. As for your comment that "drug companies DO prescribe," again, that's the marketing that I talked about. I don't find it to my liking in any way. However, that marketing goes nowhere without a legal prescriber to write the script, which brings us back to what I've already written about health care practitioners.

Good day.

[frank frankly]

48. well said.

very well said.

there is nothing in these statements that insults anyone who benefits from pharm drugs. depression is real AND pharm companies are increasingly powerful and unquestioned.

[frank frankly]

10. bingo

it is both, but the pharmaceutical companies are turning their Disease Model into The Law.

it's complicated, but the scariest thing is the advertising and the pharms are treating it like it isn't complicated. i don't trust them, but i do use my asthma inhaler every day, so clearly a lot of meds are legit.

[CarolynEC]

2. Believe me, it is quite real

:cry:

[booyakasha]

3. both

.

[TomNickell]

4. Yes.

But, I'm too down write anything more.....


Seriously, it's real.

Which doesn't mean the anti-depressants aren't over prescribed.

[MichiganVote]

5. Real enough to those who go through it

[trof]

6. I believe it is real.

Not in the mood to go into a full blown explanation now, but, yes, I believe it's real.
I used to not believe in "stress', until the results landed on me with both feet.
I thought it was some kind of wimpy excuse until it affected me personally.
I'm a believer, now.

[meow2u3]

66. I don't BELIEVE it's real--I KNOW it's real!

Take it from someone who has suffered from depression since she was a teenager!

I have been diagnosed with major depression not just once, but four times since I was 16. Only now have I been on a continuous regimen of antidepressants, only to find that the one that works for me has among its side effects (rarely, thank God) loss of liver function which can kill. I don't know about you, but I'd rather get sick to death than kill myself.

[AlienGirl]

97. I was first diagnosed at age four

This was before there were any antidepressants approved for children, so the psychiatrist had no profit motive.

Depression, OCD, and Tourette's syndrome run in my family. All three appear to have something to do with the serotonin-norepenephrine-dopamine balance in the brain, and all three can respond to similar treatment.

Tucker

[TopesJunkie]

7. Yes. It is REAL!

Anyone who knows jack about neuroscience, psychiatry, psychology knows the reality of this one.

But, for some, I guess ignorance is bliss.

Ugh.

[Dookus]

9. I agree with you

I've experienced it myself and have lost friends and relatives to it. It's as real as anything I've ever seen.

I think the notion that it's all a modern invention of drug companies is held only by those who've been extremely fortunate.

[RodneyCK2]

33. I agree... I have gone in and out of severe depression a few..

times in my life (and the 2000 election does not count). You know when it hits you because you get the symptoms. You know, the I want to get in my bed and sleep until the world goes away, slothful, empty pints of Hagen Daz on the floor...you get the picture.

To think a drug company invented it is preposterous, but what they did do is run with it. Market the hell out of it, like most of the drugs on TV, to the point that the slightest feeling of sadness or loneliness leaves us running for the medicine cabinet.

Bastards!

[Mountainman]

44. The common symptoms of clinical depression are

Inability to sleep, no appetite, not able to feel pleasure and enjoyment,
suicidal tendencies and on and on.

It is real and can be treated. I was clinically depressed for a few years. The ignorance out there keeps people from seeking medical help. It is a disease not a character defect.

[Child_Of_Isis]

169. depression is very real

It is also extremely sneaky. So, it may not be ignorance that prevents the seeking of medical help. I have been depressed most of my life, and who even knows when it began? I don't. It was just a slow creeping thing that eventually took over my life, no beginning and without end. To this day, I haven't much enjoyment of anything. It's like looking in the face of Prime Creator and it denying that you even exist.

[TrustingDog]

21. Definitely is Real... questioning the numbers of it and who profits...

[demigoddess]

If you have been there you KNOW it exists

One test: if a person who has everything and everyone they want and a happy life but wakes up at 3 am and is so depressed they cannot stand it. Also when you get over it (or get medicated) you can THINK again!!!

[Snoggera]

12. The blues is usually diagnosed as situational depression

and may be treated with therapy only, or the person making life choices that enhance their ability to effectively eliminate that which is creating the depressed outlook. Not so for clinical depression. It exists due to a lack of balance of certain chemicals in the brain. This could be the cause of the depression, or the result of other events physiologically. No one truly knows, so medications which assist with, at least temporarily, regaining chemical balance are prescribed. Are they treating the symptoms or the cause? Who knows.

There are specific symptoms which are used to diagnose clinical depression. As noted before by others, no one reacts exactly the same to medications, and every medication has some side effect.

Yes, it does exist. (If only in the minds of clinicians?)

[TXDemGal]

14. The concept of "melancholy" or "melancholia,"

which are some historical names for what is now called clinical depression, has been around for centuries. I would say the Biblical book of Job is an example of someone in the grips of melancholy. Hippocrates, the Greek physician, gave the term melancholia to one of the "four humours" (elements that were thought to make up the human body).

Abe Lincoln and Winston Churchill are some notables who dealt with depression, and they certainly preceded Prozac and its cousins.

So no, I don't believe depression was invented by pharmaceutical companies in order to sell drugs.

[drdigi420]

15. its both

but TRUE depression is very rare

most of it is just marketing

[Eric J in MN]

17. Yes, it's real.

Lots of people suffer from depression.

[drdigi420]

19. very few from REAL clinical depression

most are just marks for the con of the pharmco's

cannabis treats depression better than any SSRI drug, and it has MUCH fewer side effects and is MUCH MUCH safer

[Medium Baby Jesus]

40. Link????

Please, no L. Ron Hubbard sites.

Clueless.

[AlienGirl]

41. Long-term cannabis use depresses brain serotonin levels

I'm not anti-weed, but I don't think it's safe for a depressive to use cannabis for long periods, because it actually seems to inhibit the brain's output of serotonin. Long-term, heavy use of cannabis also lowers initiative, which can complicate depression.

Tucker

[K-W]

45. long term use of any psychoactive isnt particularly good for depression

Including pot and pharmacuticals. But if someone is going to choose to use chemicals to treat depression only, pot is probably as good as any other option.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

Link??

" long term use of any psychoactive isnt particularly good for depression"

If that is true, I'd like to read about it.

[AlienGirl]

58. Tourette's syndrome?

Tourette's syndrome (which runs right along with depression in my family, and which responds to similar medications) also involves a serotonin imbalance. Do you think pot is "as good as any other drug" for it as well?

Tucker

[K-W]

I dont feel a need to prove that bathing your brain in chemicals

for long periods of time is probably not the best of ideas.

[TopesJunkie]

70. Great. So you're making it up as you go along?

Give me a break. It's time for you to immerse yourself at the library for a while.

Sheesh.

[K-W]

77. lol, get a grip

You are honestly arguing that i should assume long term medication has no effect on the body until proven otherwise?

The whole point of taking a psychoactive drug is that it alters the chemical enviroment of the brain. If you honestly think that you can do that for long periods of time and have no impact on the brain, I have a bridge to sell you.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

75. Figured as much n/t

[K-W]

79. I suppose you dont believe in global warming either?

its a wonderful niavete that you can alter the chemical makeup of any enviroment without causing changes to it.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

92. I have suffered from clinical depression for my entire life.

So maybe you should stop making assumptions about me.

Changing the chemical enviroment of your brain for long periods of time is a risky proposition, and considering the stakes it would be absolutely stupid to assume there is no effect until one is proven.

It is like the argument against global warming that human beings can massively change the chemical content of the enviroment and not face any severe or lasting changes in that enviroment. I didnt mean to imply that you were against global warming, more to show that it is silly to use that burden of proof in some situations.

Yes, logically speaking I cant prove that all psychoactives have long term effects on the brain. It may in fact not even be true, there may be some that dont, but because the stakes are human lives, we cant really take the chance of assuming no effect until proven otherwise.

[no name no slogan]

93. Oh BULLSHIT

Listen, I've had severe, chronic, hard-to-treat clinical depression-- LARGELY UNDIAGNOSED-- for over twenty years. I've done everything from herbal remedies to self-medication (weed and alcohol) to pharmaceuticals.

As far as I can tell, I've had at least four major episodes, the last one severe enough to put me out of work for several months, WITHOUT any disability coverage, so I know firsthand how devastating this disease can be.

And I can tell you FIRST and FOREMOST that the LAST thing you use to treat depression is a DEPRESSIVE chemical.

Self-medication with marijuana will NOT help you cope with the disease. If anything, it just makes your current situation that much easier to "deal with", without addressing any of the underlying physical or psychological reasons for your depression.

To suggest that somebody can treat chronic depression through cannibis reeks of irrisponsibility in the very least.

Unless you're a doctor, please don't go around telling people to smoke weed to treat a very real chemical imbalance in the brain. It makes about as much sense as having them take Ecstacy (MDMA), which floods the brain with serotonin, but leads to huge crashes, which sometimes lead to suicide.

I have a good friend who will probably be clinically depressed for life due to abusing E when he was younger. I can tell you that he would give ANYTHING to take back the street drug abuse in order to not have to take Zoloft every day indefinately.

If you're depressed, STAY THE HELL AWAY from street drugs. Go see a doctor. Get a proper diagnosis, and get treated.

[drdigi420]

136. i may not be a doctor, but i know that marijuana is NOT a depressive

and i also know that it is safer than just about EVERY pharmaceutical drug out there, with the mildest side effects

your comparing of a harsh chemical such as E with a benign NATURAL plant cannabis reeks of irresponsibility (not irrisponsibility- spell check anyone?) and undermines your credibility

so, maybe you should check out the FACTS before you let your emotional reaction get the better of you.

[HuckleB]

196. How do you know that?

It has almost every side-effect listed on every pharm product around, so how is it safer, and how is it not a depressant?

[mountainvue]

165. #93

One of the best posts I've read tonight. Thank you!

[RobinA]

100. Frankly

As a depression sufferer and an ex-pothead, I can say this is bunk, at least for me. I can't say pot made my depression worse, but it certainly didn't help it any. It was more like it gave me a good excuse to do nothing and enjoy doing it. It's like, you are still depressed, but you don't care. In a way, pot lets you get off on your own depression. Prozac got me moving, I wish I had had it a lot sooner.

[no name no slogan]

87. Right here, mi amigo

I'm a walking-talking pharmocopea for depression.

Right now, I'm on three different medications to control it: Effexor, Lithium and Trazodone. I take more pills every day than my 91-year-old great aunt.

Major Depressive Disorder is all too real to me, my friends, and my family-- not to mention those families who have lost members to untreated depression. It's a HUGE medical problem, one which has not been discussed in medical terms up until fairly recently.

[Ladyhawk]

170. I've suffered from severe long-term depression.

By the way, depression can be diagnosed through PET scans of the brain. Brain slides of people who have committed suicide show brain abnormalities.

Selective Serotonin Re-Uptake Inhibitors like Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, etc. haven't worked for me. The only two things that have are:


1) ECT (electro-convulsive therapy, AKA shock treatments) I'm not kidding. This "resets" the brain chemistry so you start back at square one. It works, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're willing to suffer through temporary amnesia and about six weeks of living in a fog. For me it was a life or death decision.

2) Strattera: a drug originally developed for ADD that increases available nor-epinephrine in the brain.

If you've suffered through Depression, you know it's real. Even asking the question is an affront to people who have gone through hell on earth.

[Ellen Forradalom]

18. As a lifelong sufferer

just shy of 30 years, I'd say yes.

[wellstone dem]

20. How disrespectful.

Just like the insurance companies that refuse to treat this illness as "real", this question slams those of us who have suffered through the hell of depression. Yes, Virginia there is depression just like there is diabetes, cancer, arthritis, bi-polar disorder, and schizophrenia.

[Dookus]

22. If you'll read the thread

you'll see I believe depression is very real.

Others have asserted that it's an invention of pharmaceutical companies. I disagree with that.

[TrustingDog]

30. It's not an invention... but it can be predatory, is my think.

[drdigi420]

23. what is really disrespectful is conning ppl into believing

a drug will fix their 'chemical imbalance' that can most times be treated by behavior modification

[Snoggera]

29. Behavior mod

meaning changing what? Actions regarding relating to others? Diet? Increased exercise? Something else?

[K-W]

34. Meaning many people feel unhappy because of their lives or

because they are unable to deal with events and situations around them. They can be taught behaviors that allow them to avoid suffering as a result from these situations.

If I keep hurting my back because I ski, Im probably better off quitting the sport rather than sucking down painkillers.

[Snoggera]

43. But there is a difference to be contemplated

Situational depression is recognized by those in the mental health field, and NOT treated with medications. There is a different, more debilitating illness (in terms of time involved), known as clinical depression. It is not viewed as being precipitated by any event or situation in a person's life, but occurs just the same.

I believe, having been around the mental health field for many years, that psychiatrists DO have a tendency to overmedicate. That is their job; prescribing medication. One should be certain to be seeing a therapist whose approach and knowledge they trust prior to being referred to a psychiatrist. Tell a psychiatrist you are not sleeping well, cry for no reason sometimes, and are experiencing anxiety, and you will receive a prescription for the latest anti-depressant faster than you can say "wait a minute." That said, psychiatrists are around for a reason. There is ample scientific evidence available to demonstrate that many individuals require a re-balancing of chemical transmitters.

[K-W]

54. You are missing an important piece here.

Depression is not charecterized by a certain physiological condition. You cannot do a blood test for depression.

The difference between clinical depression and situational depression is based upon how long the depression lasts and how severe it is, not on what causes it.

[AlienGirl]

60. You can do a brain scan for it

You can also detect depression with a spinal tap.

Tucker

[Snoggera]

63. That is how it is determined whether is is a

situational or chemical problem. Of course, a long-term situational problem may create chemical changes in the brain that do not change once a "normal" grieving period has passed, and would then be described as having passed the threshold from situational to clinical.

I think you may be missing an important piece. Clinical depression has been verified by numerous studies; not based upon blood tests, but the differences of levels of neurotransmitters in the brains of test subjects. Based upon these studies, and the psychological profiles of those that show certain attributes, agreement was made as to what clinical depression consists of.

Please do a little searching and reading.

BTW- A situational depression may be every bit as severe as a diagnosed clinical depression.

[Barret]

64. Actually

You CAN do a blood test... I know certain thyroid problems are attributed to depression.... Problems detected by a blood test.

[K-W]

71. Responding to the three of you.

No, depression is not understood on the level you seem to think it is. They cannot do a brain scan or any test that will show an underlying condition that causes the depression. They cannot show what the causes of the chemical condition is. If my life was making me extremely sad all the time for years, my brain would reflect the same thing as someone who had a chemical imbalance that created the same emotional and behavioral conditions.

As for the thyroid comment... sure, but are you arguing that all depression is caused by thyroid problems? Cause if not, you arent really adressing my post at all.

[Snoggera]

83. All I can say is you are mistaken

No one argued that all depression is caused by thyroid problems. It is an important factor to be explored, however.

"They cannot show what the causes of the chemical condition is"

They also can not, as of yet, show the causes of all cancers or the reasons why some people need to have their appendix taken out. So, did you say anything that meant anything in that previous post?

[K-W]

90. Where am I mistaken?

Cancer can be tested for. A cancerous cell is destinctly different than a normal cell, they can be detected a tested for. No we do not know all the causes for the condition, but we can clearly see and understand the condition.

Depression is a disorder that is defined by behavioral symptoms. Yes there has been some good work in showing biological connections to it, but it is far from fully understood. So we have the behavioral symptoms, and we have som research into the chemical changes that mark those symtoms.

That is not the same as being able to say that depression is a biological disorder, caused by a chemical imbalance.

[Snoggera]

98. Well

"we can clearly see and understand the condition."

So can depression be seen clearly, and is clearly understood by many.


"Depression is a disorder that is defined by behavioral symptoms"

Yes, behavioral symptoms that have been identified as having, in clinical depression, a basis in altered levels of brain neurotransmitters.

"That is not the same as being able to say that depression is a biological disorder, caused by a chemical imbalance."

Whether caused by situational depression, chemical changes in the brain, or tiny tornadoes whirling about ones head doesn't matter. It exists, and has been proven to exist in many studies done over many, many years. Does the depression cause the chemical imbalance or does the chemical imbalance cause the depression? My thoughts are that both are in play, and it depends on the individual.

Clinical depression is a biological disorder that is created by an imbalance of neurotransmitters. It may also be caused by other physiological events. The chicken and the egg; doesn't matter.

Why do some people get gall stones and others not? There are studies that show a prediliction for those in certain categories to get them, but it doesn't explain all. Nor does it completely describe the cause.

Maybe evil fairies with tainted wands give all us humans various disabilities. Maybe not. But to say that a proven chemical imbalance is not a biological disorder makes no sense.

[K-W]

102. Im not sure we disagree at all.

We cant clearly see and understand depression. Anyone who claims to do so is a quack.

We know that there are relationships between neurotransmitters and depression. We dont yet fully understand those relationships and we especially do not know causal relationships.

I think we actually agree on the basic facts. We dont fully understand how the brain works or how the brain influences and is influenced by behavior and enviroment.

This means we have to be very careful in how we describe something like depression, something that can easily be sucked into a very psuedoscientific realm. Thats why a question like "does depression exist" is pointless and dangerous. There is certainly something to depression, but until we fully understand it we shouldnt act as though its something concrete that we have fully pinned down. That is misleading and leads to pop-psychology understandings of it that do more harm than good.

[Snoggera]

103. I think you are correct

I do think this thread is a good idea, because it brings out discussion.

[drdigi420]

139. you have the cart before the horse

the chemical imbalances are a result of life action and attitude

life action and attitude are not a result of the chemical imbalances

[AlienGirl]

166. And what "life actions and attitudes"

...has a four-year-old child done that cause the chemical imbalance?

Tucker

[Branjor]

110. I was trained....

as a medical technologist, one who tests blood, urine and cerebrospinal fluid. There is no test of any of these substances for depression or any other mental illness.

Depression is definitely real, but if it was known to be a brain disease, it would be treated by neurologists, not by psychiatrists.

[AlienGirl]

128. Can you measure serotonin levels in spinal fluid?

Trick question: I know you can.

People who have died by suicide have severely low levels of serotonin in their spinal fluid compared to people who have died of natural causes.

Tucker

[Branjor]

132. Yes....

but is that a cause or an effect of depression? People who experience great fear often have very high levels of adrenaline in their bloodstreams, but that does not mean that fear is caused by too much adrenaline.

I was diagnosed with clinical depression years ago but I find the "disease model" to be the insult, not the environmental hypothesis. Talking it out really does help if you can get to the core of it and find out that you are a worthwhile person after all. And remember, that much maligned novel "I Never Promised You a Rose Garden" in which a schizophrenic girl recovers by talking with her psychiatrist and really wrestling with her problems was written by a real patient.

[AlienGirl]

135. Cause or effect? We don't know--yet

Even though fear can cause high levels of adrenaline in the bloodstream, people who are given chemicals that reduce the amount of adrenaline they produce under stress will feel less subjective fear. That's just one of the many brain/mind puzzles waiting to be figured out as science advances!

I find the disease model of depression to be accurate for some people--my family and myself included. I don't know what four-year-old me could possibly have "talked out" with a therapist.

Talk therapy alone helps some people. Medicine alone helps some people. But combining the two seems to do best of all.

Tucker

(P.S. I believe the brain both influences, and is influenced by, the mind.)

[Branjor]

142. The disease model...

is supposed to speak to the cause of the problem, not effects of treatments. That is, high adrenaline would then be considered the CAUSE of the fear (patently absurd) just as low serotonin is said to be the CAUSE of the depression (also, in my opinion, patently absurd). These causes are unproven and to say that they must be chemical in origin because drug A or drug B reduces the symptoms is simply to engage in circular reasoning. Not that these drugs may not be helpful on a temporary basis. But used long term, they damage the brain and do not solve the underlying problems.

Also, the fear I referred to as resulting in a high adrenaline level was fear from an external cause, such as a mack truck bearing down on you. Treating it by reducing the level of adrenaline in the bloostream instead of getting out of the way of the truck is obviously not the way to go.

[Snoggera]

74. Excellent point

Thyroid problems should be the first thing the doc looks for prior to prescribing.

[RobinA]

108. They Are Working

on a blood test for it. Like someone else said, the proof is in spinal fluid, but it's too risky and painful and expensive to do a spinal tap on everybody who might be depressed. Eventually they hope to be able to do a blood test and determine which antidepressant will work better for the individual so they can avoid the current trial and error method.

[AlienGirl]

109. Personally, I'd like to see functional MRIs or PET scans done

You can see a lot more from brain scans--not only can they detect depression, but also several other mental illnesses and early signs of other neurological conditions. The trouble with the blood test, from what I understand of it, is that the serotonin doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and the blood levels may not reflect what's actually happening in the cranium.

Tucker

[drdigi420]

137. the chemical imbalance can be fixed by changing your life

the simple act of smiling releases endorphines

depression is real, but it is not treated by SSRI drugs. If anything, those make the situation worse.

[AlienGirl]

140. "Smile and you'll feel better"?

That line of thinking--that depressives are just lazy, weak-willed people who can fix everything by bucking up--just perpetuates the stigma that accrues to this horrible disorder.

I've had depression, and I've had cancer. Of the two, cancer was easier to cope with, partly because nobody suggested I could just will it away without the help of modern science.

Tucker

[drdigi420]

148. nice straw man there

i simply stated the scientific FACT that the act of smiling releases endorphines

why must you expand my argument to something i didnt say in order to argue with it?

[HuckleB]

191. If that's true, then who needs insulin?

Surely, a diabetic can fix "the chemical imbalance by changing your life."

No? If not, why not? What's the difference between the two disorders, where one can be magically healed by thought and the other cannot?

[hedgehog]

205. I like the comparison to diabetes myself

Once you've gone through an episode, you have to always be on watch to prevent a relapse. Some depression can be treated with behavior modification(think of losing weight to control Type 2 diabetes). More severe cases respond to talking therapy and drugs. I suspect taking the drugs alone won't help if the depressed person doesn't make an effort to change his or her life style (think of an insulin dependent diabetic who won't monitor diet or blood sugar).

By the way, if the drugs make a permanent change in the brain - why do some of us have to stay on them forever? We're no more addicted than a diabetic is to insulin, but we will relapse without medication. On the other hand - untreated depression does cause permanent changes in the brain. Repeated untreated episodes result in depression that won't respond to most drugs.

[HuckleB]

209. A beautifully written post. Succinct, honest, to the bottom line.

Thanks so much for sharing your well-thought out response. I may just have to borrow part of what you wrote in future conversations, if that's all right with you.

:)

[DemBones DemBones]

39. It's a lot more disrespectful to tell people they can

get themselves out of severe clinical depression with a little behavior modification.

You sound like a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" conservative, oblivious to the reality of others' problems.

[RobinA]

106. Behavior Mod?

For depression? Where did you get your degree?

[K-W]

28. Calm down.

There is a very valid criticism of the pharmacutical companies that rush to label everyone with problems as suffering from depression so they can sell them prozac.

Depression is still not nearly fully understood medically and it is very likely that a significant number of those people diagnosed with depression do not suffer from a neurological condition.

[Hoping4Change]

25. You must read this.

David Healey is the foremost researcher in pharmacology who was fired from U of T for his statements about Prozac.

"Although Healy was an early advocate of Prozac, his clinical research persuaded him that the Prozac drug group could trigger suicide and violence in some patients. Later, when he gained access to internal company communications, he discovered that the companies themselves knew of the problem.

Healy concludes that SSRIs might benefit some people in the short term, but he finds little reason to think that they help things to turn out better in the long run. Most worryingly, he presents persuasive evidence that the SSRIs make a significant number of people suicidal and a larger number addicted.

There is no nice way of putting this: The drug companies have subordinated patient safety on the altar of blockbuster profits."



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031018/BKPROZ18/TPHealth/

[Dookus]

32. the question in this thread

is not whether pharmaceuticals are the best treatment. It is simply whether depression exists.

[TrustingDog]

35. the real question is, would pharms take advantage?

[Hoping4Change]

184. Healy relates how treatment has manufactured de[ression.

Healey does not question the existence of depression , his concern is the great boom in depressive illness that dates back only to the discovery and marketing of Prozac.


"Prior to the 1990s, comparatively few people were thought to suffer from depression: perhaps one person in 10,000. With the discovery of the Prozac family of drugs there came, not coincidentally, an explosive increase in diagnoses of depressive illness."

[robbedvoter]

26. No. Only optimism exists. Everything else is a conspiracy.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

27. Yes, yes, yes...

clinical depression is very real and has been with us for far longer than the pharma companies have been in existence.

At various times in my life I have been been depressed (the blues) or suffered from full-blown clinical depression and helped with talk therapy, alternative modalities, and antidepressants, either alone or in conjunction with each other.

I have been blessed with being treated by doctors/practitioners who knew when talk/alternative therapies were enough and when the big pharma guns needed to be brought out.

There are many gradations of depression that must be evaluated by a mental health professional to know what treatment should be applied.

[Leilani]

36. I think it is pretty damn sad

on an enlightened site as DU, there are people who do not understand the reality of mental illness.

Sure drug companies overprescribe, but that does not change the reality.

[TopesJunkie]

47. Yes, it is absolutely amazing.

[TrustingDog]

57. reality is, the more you depend on drugs than on yourself...

is a Good Thing for the corporate fucks, bad thing for you as an as an individual...

as an aside, yes, absolutely, there are some really good things happening for the right patients.

but being told to take a pill because general life is sometimes not always easy to deal with - take a pill for that - is suspect.

As I said in another thread - this Viagra thang... good lord how'd we all get to be overpopulated so without Erections R Us?

[TopesJunkie]

62. Thanks for spreading misinformation.

That's not helpful. It keeps people trapped in a prison that you cannot imagine.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

78. Thanks for your wise words

If only you had a clue what you were talking about.

[TrustingDog]

91. it's all related... can't you see?

I do thoroughly believe that there is good medicine out there for good reasons - absolutely.

What I have difficulty with is the capitalistic spin to it - money money money from very ordinary weaknesses, turned mental.
Depressed cuz your boyfriend left you? TAKE A PILL. Depressed cuz you can't make a mortgage payment? TAKE A PILL. Depressed because you are confuserated about what the news is telling us TAKE A PILL. Ulcers? don't eat right, just ... TAKE A PILL.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

96. I agree with you.

Depression is clearly over-diagnosed in this country for many reasons. That does not make medical treatment for those with real depression any less necessary. I get really angry when I read ignorant comments that basically deny that depression is a real medical condition. If a lifetime of drug therapy keeps someone out of an institution, I call it a miracle.

[TrustingDog]

127. Bush depresses me... where's the pill for that one.

[hedgehog]

206. the stress from a break-up or mortgage bill can trigger depression

as in being the final straw that breaks a camel's back. Just don't confuse depression with being sad. Depression is an abnormal reaction to life's ups and downs. Grief that doesn't fade but grows. A new mother who can't face the baby she longed for. Someone who can't get out of bed even though life looks perfect from the outside.

[Snoggera]

89. Let's see

"being told to take a pill because general life is sometimes not always easy to deal with - take a pill for that - is suspect."

For some, not all, and perhaps not for most. You misunderstand why people seek out assistance. It is not because general life sucks, it is because there is a very real, and very debilitating pain they are dealing with. Sometimes, the pain may be dealt with and worked through without medications. Sometimes not. Don't pigeonhole all into one box.

"this Viagra thang... good lord how'd we all get to be overpopulated so without Erections R Us?"

Many are able to obtain erections without assistance, but some are not. Once again, there is a problem to be dealt with that not ALL are dealing with; don't pigeonhole.

I hope you continue your life without problems or concerns that at times overwhelm you. That way, you may remain incurious and unconcerned about the myriad of realities that confront others.

[TrustingDog]

130. why is this subject so touchy....

when we all fucking know what the corporate government is capable of in the harm to us all, all over the planet?

They prey on our weaknesses, they make profit by it, they magnify our neediness and dependence.

I am quite perplexed that some here think I believe there is not a real need for good meds for good reasons....

[TrustingDog]

167. now how screwed up is this... pharming kids... link attached...

http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/2000/apr00/drugging-preschoolers.html

Into the Mouths of Babes
The drugging of preschoolers is on the rise, study shows
CHICAGO, IL - The Feb. 23 Journal of the American Medical Association reported on new research by the University of Maryland which shows that the number of children ages 2-4 taking powerful stimulant and anti-depressant drugs increased 50% between 1991 and 1995. The greatest increase was in the use of stimulants (Ritalin) and the newer class of anti-depressants (Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil). Researchers believe this rise reflects an ongoing trend.

The study results have caused alarm among experts, who worry about the dearth of research on the effects of psychiatric medications on very young children. Many are concerned about the potential danger of these drugs to the developing brains of pre-schoolers. Dr. Joseph Coyle, chairman of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, commenting in the Feb. 23 New York Times, said: "These interventions are occurring at a critical time in brain development, and we don't know what the consequences are."

etc.

[Selwynn]

187. A life debilatating condition qualifies as a good reason.

In some situations such as mine, that is what an physiological experience which we've come to label "clinical depression" is.

You clearly don't have direct first hand (meaning you yourself) personal experience with the kind of depression that makes you have a mental breakdown, that causes you to be put into the hospital under suicide guard etc. You don't understand what its like to listen to every councilor and have a support network of friends and family who love you and have none of it make the difference.

In a situation like that, if a medical professional can worth with you and treat the physiological problem with the right medication - and if that result is that you can go home from the hospital and actually feel the love of your family and feel the happiness around you - then its worth it.

[TopesJunkie]

37. The Neurobiology of Depression

http://www.lib.calpoly.edu/infocomp/modules/05_evaluate/WIC2b.html

[sendero]

38. Depression is quite real..

... but one could make the case that SSRIs are over-prescribed, used too often for mild depression best left to other therapies and situational depression that is event related and will pass.

In the case of situational depression, such as recovering from a divorce or death of a loved one, many believe that taking anti-depressants simply circumvents the healing process, that the pain must be felt to truly recover.

On the other hand, the fact is that SSRIs have some nasty side effects, particularly sexual ones, that make them not exactly a drug you want to take unless you really need it. If you are so depressed you are willing to give up having any sexual expression, you might well need the drugs. :)

[AlienGirl]

52. Sexual side-effects

The sexual side-effect of depression itself can be even worse, IMO. When I'm in a low point, my libido just...evaporates.

I've been on various SSRI's for nine years now, and the only side effects I had were dry mouth (with Zoloft) and tremor (with Wellbutrin). I'm currently on paroxetine (generic Paxil) and pretty satisfied with the results.

Tucker

[sendero]

95. I can believe that...

.... I'm talking more about borderline levels of depression where one could go either way - take the drugs or not take them. People who have severe clinical depression for long periods really get great benefit from those drugs IMHO. People who are going through a divorce, well maybe they are not necessarily the best answer.

In any event, this problem is worse for men than for women for reasons I'm sure I don't have to explain :)

[put out]

144. Sexual side effects exist for women taking antidepressants, too.

And here are some of the common ones:

Dry vagina
Painful intercourse
No blood engorgement of her genitalia
Lack of libido
Inability to reach orgasm

Have a good sit-down discussion with a woman who has taken or is taking antidepressants. If she is able to be honest with you, you may hear bad stories of sexual side effects resulting from taking these sorts of medications.

Purely editorial note: Boy, does it ever piss me off when womens' sexual responses are discounted. It tells me "Well, who cares, after all, she doesn't have to get it up. Enough K-Y and everything is okey-dokey". Present company excepted, I'm sure. Step lightly, though.

Kim

edit: grammar errors, probably not all of them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. As Someone Who Loves Someone With Depression

It is very real. Heartbreakingly so.

DTH

[TopesJunkie]

51. WHY? The neuroscience of suicide.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0006AF90-5BC7-1E1B-8B3B809EC588EEDF

[HuckleB]

179. This is a great piece! I have shared it many times.

Thanks for posting it on this thread. It appears that it is very much needed.

Salud!

[RichardRay]

53. Been there, done that

and I've got the diagnosis.

The difference between 'the blues' and clinical depression is like the difference between thinking about killing someone and actually killing them.

As I result of medication I was able to find a place to stand from which I now control the condition without the medication. I don't believe I'd have gotten here without the perspective the pills allowed me to get.

Yeah, it's real.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[Barret]

59. No it does not

You know all the people that comitted suicide for the past hundreds and thousands of years? That was just a conspiracy by the makers of Paxil.

[malachibk]

67. It exists insofar as people are indeed debilitated by it

Whether the cluster of symptoms is named "depression" or some other disorder, it is real. Ask anyone who has suffered from it. In fact, MDD is one of the most costly diseases in the world in terms of days of work missed etc.

As a psychiatric epidemiologist I can aver that the notion of "depression" exisited long before Prozac et al and in cultures far removed from the tug of the pharm. industry.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. When I hear someone suggest that depression "isn't real"

I can't help but hope that that person soon gets upclose and personal experience with the disease being denied.

(Yes, Dookus, I understand that you're just raising the issue.)

[Ladyhawk]

171. You know, this happened to me.

As a stupid, unthinking fundy, I railed against a friend with Depression to "get right with God." :eyes: It came back on me in spades. I don't believe in karma, but boy do I believe in Depression now. Before I left religion, I got the "get right with God" speech many times. My friends even tried to exorcise the demons causing the Depression and when that failed, they told me not to come back until I was right with God. That was one of major events that led to extricating me from fundamentalism. When I think back to how I behaved as a fundy, it sickens me.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

72. Yes.

Yes it is.

I don't even know WHY this is a question.

[Stephanie]

73. Wisconsin Death Trip

A book that illustrates what depression was like before drugs.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

101. And the name of a great album! n/t

:headbang:

[Selwynn]

76. Yes. There is a different between common bouts of the blues and....

...long term, debilitating, misery.

I was there.

I didn't want to die, but I had absolutely no idea how to keep living. Every day was just blanket sorrow.

I've not been there for six years, going strong and I have no plans to be there again. :)

[depakid]

80. deleted

[Jacobin]

81. Ignorance Reigns

Jesus fucking Christ.

Fucking A its real.

Do you get out much?

[Dookus]

105. LOL

why not read the thread and find out my position?

I swear, the only thing faster than the speed of light is the speed at which DU'ers will take offense.

[zanana]

82. Depression is so real...

It can make you unable to function. In its' severest form, it can become a psychosis. It is usually accompanied by anxiety and outright fear. The worst part is, if you make it through, most likely it will happen again. It's real alright.

[Ladyhawk]

172. That's right...recurring.

And each relapse is worse. :( :( :( :( It's so frustrating for those of us suffering.

[progressivebydesign]

84. There is the chemical imbalance.. and there is situational depression.

The chemical imbalance stuff, which SHOULD be checked by a blood test, can be treated with medication AND counseling. The problem is, people are left on anti-depressants for decades.. when they can be helped through other methods while on the medicines for finite periods. The risk of untreated depression, which is suicide, is real. The problems is that people believe now that everything can be solved with a pill. I read a recent study that said patients get angry with their physicians, if the do not leave the office with some sort of medication for whatever ails them... even if the physician feels that nothing is warranted.

Situational depression, bad things happen.. life sucks because something happens that's bad, is something that I think should never result in anti-depressants being prescribed. There are other ways to get through those times... without altering someone's brain chemistry.

I do agree that people have become pill happy. When billions is spent each year now on pharm advertising, there is a problem. Too many people ARE shoved onto anti-depressants.. when it's probably inappropriate.. or given them as one would give an aspirin, with little thought to the required therapy that should come with it, cognitive behavioral therapy, to retrain the mind from thinking in the old ways and having the same responses.

So. It's real. But it's over diagnosed as a medical condition. Life in America is getting harder, and it's hard not to be stressed and bummed out... but pills aren't the answer for everyone.

[DrWeird]

85. Yes, depression is real. And BHT is a cure.

Because of radicals.

[Pithlet]

94. Yes

Although it is entirely possible that it may be over diagnosed, I don't know how those in this thread who assert that it is could possibly know. I think it is a case of "I've never had it, I don't know what it feels like, and therefore it couldn't possibly be that common".

As someone who has experienced it firsthand, I can tell people that it is entirely real, and medicine has been a life saver for me. I would not have had the life I enjoy now with the family I love without them.

[Barret]

99. You hit the nail on the head

"I don't know how those in this thread who assert that it is could possibly know. I think it is a case of "I've never had it, I don't know what it feels like, and therefore it couldn't possibly be that common".
"

[K-W]

104. No offense, but that is psuedo-science.

Your subjective account of your personal experience is of little use in such a subject and you would be best not to have such certainty that simply by virtue of being treated for depression you have a full understanding of something that science does not yet fully understand.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

107. And your opinion

posted over and over is science?

:puke:

[Snoggera]

112. Not everyone is a scientist

and some like to express their personal experiences.

I'd like to say have a little compassion, but that word is now equated in my mind with conservatism; much as liberal is a dirty word. What the hell - have a little compassion.

[Pithlet]

115. You mean like I did?

and got accused of claiming that I knew everything about the subject? I know that wasn't you, but I'm just saying.

[Snoggera]

119. Sorry

need a brain break. I'm getting lost in the replies.

[Pithlet]

121. And it is a compassionate thing

to tell people that their condition doesn't really exist? It seems to me that that can be countered with a reply, doesn't it? I don't know how your response to my original post in this thread makes sense. I stand by what I said. Those who say they don't believe depression really exists have nothing to base that on. I was only posting my opinion as well, but because it is the opposite of yours, somehow I'm oppressing everyone else's opinion? Honestly, I don't recall ever saying that no one could express their views, and I don't remember anyone telling me I couldn't counter them.

[Snoggera]

123. I am sorry

I made a mistake in responding, and then made another mistake.

My original post was meant to support exactly what you are saying.

I apologize for the confusion.

[Pithlet]

126. lol. That's okay.

I've done the same thing :)

[K-W]

118. Thats fine, but acting as though anyone who questions depression

is wrong because "I know, ive had depression" isnt being fair to anyone.

[Pithlet]

122. That is not how I countered it

Of course I know it exists if I've experienced it. It wasn't my intention to use that solely as the backuop for my argument. I stated that those who believe otherwise don't have anything to back it up. That was my main contention.

I think it is a foolish position to state that it does not exist, just as stating that broken legs don't exist. The only difference is, there is an outward manifestation that anyone can witness when one breaks a leg, but there isn't always something so immediately obvious with depression. I think it is very easy to dismiss something that one has had no personal experience with.

[K-W]

129. I agree and disagree.

Yes it is foolish to just claim it doesnt exist. It is also foolish to just claim it does exist.

Im sorry, but you dont know that it exists because you experienced it. You know that you experienced something that you understand to be depression. I can say the same thing of myself, but until science understands depression like it understands a broken bone, I wont claim I had depression the same way I claim I had a broken bone.

The problem here is that the kind of logic you are using can be thouroughly misused. I could say, I have experienced demonic possession and no one can tell me it doesnt exist, I know it exists, and I know that holy water cured me. And I would be using the same logic.

[K-W]

116. So now you are just gonna flame me up and down the thread?

Thanks for the civility.

[Pithlet]

114. Point out where I claimed to have a full understanding

What I did point out is that others who insist that depression doesn't exist or is over diagnosed have nothing to back it up. It seems they are only basing it on their own personal experiences. Mine happens to include depression, and medication happened to help it, so I pointed that out.

Believe me, I know that science and research cannot rely on anecdotal evidence.

[K-W]

120. Fine, I wasnt so much responding to you, but to the many posts on the

thread that expressed that they knew depression was real because they had it.

I myself am diagnosed with clinical depression, I have been on several medications for it. But as Im sure you know, people can be very certain they have conditions they do not have and be very certain useless treatments had had effects.

I didnt mean to accuse you of anything per se, just to point out that to be worthwile this discussion has to avoid those common traps of human reasoning.

[Pithlet]

125. Thank you

I wasn't clear enough apparently that I wasn't using my own experiences to back up what I was saying. I was using it more to emphasize the point, since it was something that I did indeed have experience with.

[Comicstripper]

111. Yes

I have it. I had it before I knew about any drugs for it existed. And I know. Don't even suggest to me that there's anything illegitimate about it.
Yes, I'm sure it's overdiagnosed, like ADD and the like. But it's real, alright.
No, not the blues. No, not feeling a little down. And I resent having it treated that way. There are legitimate chemical imbalances which take place in the brain. Please put aside your anti-corporatism (I've got it, too) and just think clearly.

[Dookus]

113. I will urge you to do as I've urged others

which is to READ the thread and what I have to say. Nothing in the original post implies I do not believe depression exists.

Reading before you post insults is a good sign of "thinking clearly".

[mzmolly]

117. My greatgrandmothers 24 year old sister hung herself about 80 years ago.

Before Pharma co's made pills.

However, I do think it's over diagnosed at times, and that vitamins B and other nutritional sups might help without the side effects that occur with drugs?

[Nikia]

124. Maybe, there are several different depressions

We talk of depression if it is a specific disease, but maybe it is more like symptoms of differnt diseases. For example, vommitting most of the time when you eat can be caused by a wide variety of ailments. Sometimes doctors prescribe medicine for it that actually makes the problem worse such as acid reducers when the problem is really that food isn't digested quickly enough.
I think that can be the case with depression. Since I have had some digestive ailments which preventing me from eating for consectutive days, I know that not eating makes me depressed. While this may have an emotional component, I think that my weepiness and general blues is biochemical when that happens. When I can eat, I feel much happier. There may also be other factors that are purely biochemical be it a direct brain imbalance or a general hormonal imbalances.
Then there is situational depression that can become an extended situation. Some people may have difficulty dealing with certain events or situations. Because they are depressed it may be harder for them to do the things that they need to do to make their situation better such as depression related to job loss and inability to get a job or depression related to an abusive relationship. Brain chemistry can change from extended stress and sadness to become true depression.
I think that anti depressents do not help all people because not all depressions are the same. Some depressions that have a heavy situational component should be treated with talk therapy. The woman depressed because she feels trapped with an abusive husband would be better learning to be able to leave the jerk and realize that she should not let his treatment of her dictate her self esteem rather than be given anti depressants.

[union_maid]

131. I think it does

I think it's still poorly understood and it may be a catch-all term for many conditions. My husband thought he was suffering from clinical depression for many, many years. He was certainly depressed and tremendously anxious sometimes verging on paranoid, tense and his self-esteem was non-existant. He'd done therapy, medication, no medication, no therapy, self-medication - which made it worse, of course - meditation..just about everything he could. A lot of people here won't like this, but two years ago he went on Paxil. His life is entirely different. He's still got some social anxiety, but nothing remotely close to what it was. All his close relationships are renewed and much better. He's a much happier person and getting something out of life at last.

There's no question that the pharmaceutical companies try to sell their products to people who don't need them. I don't think they should be allowed to do the kind of advertising that they do, but for people who do need a thing, it can make the difference between life and living death or worse.

[SunDrop23]

133. I say yes.

[shrike]

134. Damn straight it's real

I suffered from it for years. God, is it real.

[stepnw1f]

138. I Can't Convince Anyone...

that it's real.... all I can say is it's like sitting by a graveyard and watching the world die. Imagine doing that everyday to the point when you are willing to do anything, and I mean anything to change sceneries. That's what depression is. Just thank what ever you believe in, that you don't have to live with it.

So for some it's real, and others it not real or a little of both.

[drdigi420]

141. sitting ata graveyard watching the world die

will certainly cause chemical imbalances in the brain

get out of the graveyard and smile, you WILL feel better

[stepnw1f]

145. Can't Read?

I said "like"....

[drdigi420]

150. ya, metaphors work both ways

please try to keep up

[put out]

153. I fervently hope for you

that neither you nor any person for whom you care ever suffers from depression.

Slapping on a smile does not work.

"Put on a happy face." "Snap out of it." Sounds sadly familiar.

[drdigi420]

154. once again, thats NOT what i said

read more slowly if it helps

smiling releases endorphines, which make you feel better

i didn't say 'snap out of it', or even suggest that the necessary life changes would be easy

i am just pointing out the direct relationship between your life actions and your brain chemistry

[stepnw1f]

158. Your Lack of Empathy is Quite Obvious

Somebody you know depressed or have depression? Smiling is possible when you can smile. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Getting out and moving around maintains a level mood. Smiling can cause you to fool yourself into fooling others around you. Is that you feel is a better solution?

[Ladyhawk]

173. Also, Depression saps your energy so you cannot direct your life. n/t

[put out]

164. I read pretty well.

I was not quoting you. I will assert, however, that the "get out of the graveyard and smile" comment seemed callous to me, and further demonstrated a lack of empathy and understanding.

Perhaps you are the most caring and knowledgeable person here, where this condition is concerned. I certainly wouldn't know.

[ocean girl]

147. Those of you who don't believe depression is real

are kind of like homophobics - maybe you are so afraid that you could ever appear 'weak' that you have to deny depression's existence or maybe YOU might catch it.

I've had it all my life - I've lost 4 friends to suicide who wouldn't take their medication - surviving it has made me a stronger person but I've always been willing to do whatever it took to survive and thrive.

Lack of compassion is usually due to ignorance - open your minds to others reality, please.

Peace.

[Dukkha]

143. It's very real to me

I've lived with it for so long now that the few moments of happiness I have feel alien and wrong to me, and I just anticipate the depression to make it's return. It's become my normal way of life now. I have never had treatment nor plan to. I wouldn't even know where to turn for help. I'll just continue to ride it out to my final days.

[phrenzy]

146. Ignorance Abounds

Christ - The ignorance spouted in this thread by thankfully few people is just sickening. These types ALWAYS come up in this conversation.

To you idiots I simply say this. When you yourself or a friend are faced with the choice:

A.) Put a gun in your mouth

or

B.) Seek out medication

I'm sure you'll make the right choice. Since medication is just a 'scam' then I guess you know what to do?

Idiots. Perpetuating the myth that you should just "smile" or "snap out of it" is asinine and reeks of total ignorance of the reality that people suffering from true depression face.

You say there's no way to medically 'prove' depression? Shit, well then, I guess we'd better wait until somebody takes a bottle of sleeping pills then we can be sure, right?

If you knew shit about effective treatment (no smiling and pot don't count) - You would know that the MEDS can and do assist the person in actually implementing certain aspects of behavioral therapy. Shit, without meds there is NO WAY I would have even had the initiative to call and get myself to my therapist. I could barely get out of BED.

Anyway, I just hope your stigmatizing and ignorance does not cost any lives.

[drdigi420]

155. or C) change your lifestyle to correct your brain chemistry

taking positive action to change your brain chemistry is highly preferable to popping pills with unproven results and unsound science

too bad your stigmatizing and pill popping WILL negatively affect many lives

[tibbir]

161. Just a question:

Have you ever had clinical depression?

[AlienGirl]

163. How does a four-year-old do that?

I'm waiting...

Tucker

[Ladyhawk]

175. When you are BED-RIDDEN, it is awfully hard to take positive action...

...to change your brain chemistry.

I was bed-ridden for three years before I had shock treatments. I had about two years of remission when I was able to take some positive actions, then had another relapse. I'm pulling out of this one because of Strattera, which has given me the energy to get out of bed.

[HuckleB]

194. Are you a mental health provider of some kind?

[tibbir]

160. You said it for me, thank you.

I have bipolar disorder and, as a result, have had many, many bouts of clinical depression.

This is just my observation, based on the experiences I've had since my mood swings began to take over. Depression exists. Medication helps manage it. I had to go through a laundry list of different anti-depressants before finding that Wellbutrin worked for me.

When I'm deeply depressed, the feeling is worse than anything I've ever experienced (including giving birth to my child). It's unbearable. Without the right medication I have gotten to the point where I wanted to do anything to stop the pain, including suicide. The right medication gave me relief from that pain. No amount of smiling or talk therapy worked a bit until the level of pain became manageable.

Antidepressants are over-prescribed undoubtedly for some, but for people who are deeply clinically depressed they save lives.

[Ladyhawk]

174. Thank you, phrenzy.

I am SO SICK of listening to the stigma spouted by the ignorant.

[wurzel]

149. Widespread depression is the canary in the mine.

When so many people are so depressed the answer must be social. In all societies through history it was a function of parents to teach their children their culture. Now, for the first time in history, parents are expected to protect their children from the toxic nature of their culture. It is impossible. People should be depressed in such a condition. Ironically it is a sign of health. When people learn to accept this culture, and are no longer depressed by it, we are lost.

[sadiesworld]

151. Of course it is real....

we've been self-medicating since time immemorial.

Why do you hate science? :D

[minkyboodle]

152. Its very real

And it runs in my mother's side of the family. I think that many who suffer from serious repetitive clinical depression can find it in at least one of their family's genetic lines. Many times in the past those who suffered from depression often became alcoholics. The earliest case I know is a great uncle who committed suicide, I know of at least 3 other serious cases all on my mother's side of the family.

[Ladyhawk]

176. Exactly. It runs in my father's side of the family.

One of my cousins killed himself. Another cousin has, like me, suffered from Depression her whole life. My paternal grandmother and father suffered from Depression. My aunt finally found an SSRI (Zoloft) that worked for her.

[Sugarbleus]

156. It is for me.. without it, I'd be dead or in jail. eom...

[foreigncorrespondent]

157. Well Dook...

...I truly believe depression is a very real thing.

The kind of depression you are talking about is the kind in which the mood of soceity causes. Meaning, 9/11, the mood of country went from being shocked, to angry to depressed.

Through out my life I had always been ok. I could handle anything thrown my way, but when I met Sapph and we began having to live the forced separation thing, my mood went way down.

Come January next year, it will be three years since I have been to the U.S. As I sit here thinking back during the last (almost) three years I can see that the mood swings I have gone through are caused from depression, and not from the clinical depression I have lived with all my life. This depression is very real, but also very different, and very hard to explain.

Anyway I hope this helps answer your question for you. :)

[Dookus]

159. Hey FC...

if you'll read the thread, you'll see I agree with you entirely. OTHERS here have posited it was all a pharmaceutical biz conspiracy.

[quaker bill]

162. The diagnosis existed before the drugs were invented.

Are the drugs over-prescribed and excessively marketed? I think a good case can be made for this. But recognition of the condition pre-dates the drugs substantially. The statement is absurd on it's face.

[blitzen]

168. It's real but also culturally relative....

in some times and places (those that are more community-oriented), it is less frequent

[rucky]

177. Whoever thinks it's a conspiracy could use some Lithium(TM)

this message has been brought to you by Pfizer.

[LiberalPersona]

178. It most certainly is real

I know because I've been there. I was in a hospital for a few months for it too (tricked into going there when I was a kid and forced to stay). It's beyond description what it feels like. Depression can become so bad that it affects one physically in indescribable ways.

[HuckleB]

180. Yes, it's real. And it's probably underdiagnosed, not overdiagnosed.

Here's a recent piece on the biology of post-partum depression:

Preventing Postpartum Depression Part I: A Review of Biological Interventions
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/CJP/current/dennis.asp

I will look for more information that can be accessed online. There are a couple of decent pieces posted above, by others, as well.

[HuckleB]

182. Major Depression and Mental Health Care Utilization in Canada: 1994 to 200

http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2004/may/patten.asp

[HuckleB]

183. Patient Satisfaction With Outpatient Psychiatric Treatment...

Patient Satisfaction With Outpatient Psychiatric Treatment: The Role of Diagnosis, Pharmacotherapy, and Perceived Therapeutic Change
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2004/may/hasler.asp

[HuckleB]

186. Mental Disorders and Reasons for Using Complementary Therapy

http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/august/rickhi.asp

I think that this piece might clarify a few things from some conversations above.

[HuckleB]

188. The Neurobiology of Suicide and Suicidality

http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/june/heeringen.asp

[HuckleB]

189. Differentiating Symptoms of Complicated Grief and Depression Among...

Differentiating Symptoms of Complicated Grief and Depression Among Psychiatric Outpatients
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/march/ogrodniczuk.asp

[Qanisqineq]

181. It is very real

When you have been hospitalized numerous times, tried every medication and combination of medications, and it has controlled your life for the past 17 years... you know it is real.

[Selwynn]

185. The experience of severe dep. is real - treating it with pills, that's a..

..different story. I don't know about that.

[HuckleB]

192. Yes. And you can even "see it."

Imaging Brain Chemistry and Function in Neuropsychiatric Disorders
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2002/may/editorial.asp

In Vivo Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy and Its Application to Neuropsychiatric Disorders
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2002/may/inReviewInVivo.asp

Studies of Altered Social Cognition in Neuropsychiatric Disorders Using Functional Neuroimaging
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2002/may/inReviewAlteredSocialCognition.asp

[Cat Atomic]

195. It certainly exists.

People don't jump off buildings because of "pharmaceutical inventions".

[Branjor]

197. *

People don't jump off buildings because of "pharmaceutical inventions"? Have you ever heard of Prozac? It induces suicidal behavior in some people.

[Cat Atomic]

198. Well of course drugs can make people do things.

I was saying that depression is not an invention of the pharmaceutical industry.

[HuckleB]

199. Actually...

Actually, what it does is give energy to people who are depressed to the point where they don't have the energy to actually kill themselves. The real issue with Prozac and other SSRIs in regard to suicide is that the anti-depressive effects don't kick in for 3-8 weeks, but the energy often comes back before then.

In other words, we've got a tool that's actually very effective, with very few side effects compared to past anti-depressants, yet we have a mental health system that doesn't provide a safety net for the use of such tools, via daily or every other day check ins with therapists, or even a short stay in an inpatient sub acute unit, while the medication's effects build up.

[put out]

202. Good point.

When that fog begins to lift and a formerly depressed person can get up and get it together and form a plan and take some action...someone had better be there for them. Often, all the people around them can see is a brighter affect, a sense of purpose.

[AVID]

200. The Medical Professional should make the decision, but . .

there are a few questions you should find out about your doctor.

1. Are they a paid speaker for a particular company / drug? (There are 6000 sq ft "cabins" in Jackson Hole being built by docs with "speaker" money - although they might have the best interest of the patient in mind, they can prescribe a branded product, when a cheaper generic might do as well. And they don't get asked to speak "again and again" if they don't write Rx's and produce ROI - return on investment from the drug company)

2. How much time of their day is spent talking to Drug Reps? If drug selling didn't work, why would there be hundreds of thousands of drug reps "cold calling" on Dr's every day - being paid very well - $55,000 - 95,000 annually.

3. Get a second opinion if you are truly concerned with your doctors prescription.

4. Ask for a few scientic studies - both for and against the use of a particular drug you are being prescribed - and read them yourself. (Make sure the study was not sponsored by the company that make s the drug you were prescribed)

[HuckleB]

201. Good advice.

Further, if you've never had a full assessment by a psychiatrist, psychologist or psychiatric nurse practitioner, request one. Your general practitioner does not have the time to do a full assessment. Over time, some people may be more comfortable doing check ins with their general practitioner once a diagnosis has been made via a full assessment and follow up visits to a psychiatric specialist, however, I would definitely request seeing someone for a full work up before going on any treatment regimen, unless your physician feels that it's an emergency situation, of course. In addition, best practice dictates that therapy is a first line treatment, and that those who need medicine get much closer to baseline when they also get therapy.

[hedgehog]

207. Is it real?

You betcha it's real. I fought it off for 40 years and then nearly lost my husband and my family when it really hit. Thank God for a good doctor who was able to talk me through it and who was willing to keep trying until we got the right meds. I go in for quarterly check-ups. I take my pills every day, add a little B-6 just in case and watch myself to avoid stress. That means getting enough sleep, the right food, the right people around me. My 5 year old daughter was diagnosed after I realized her crying spells weren't bouts of self pity. The kid was terrified. I'm glad she's getting treated now. I just wish I had all the time back that this disease has stolen from me.

On another related topic - I am sick of people abusing MY pills. They aren't tranquilizers and they won't get you high. Does anyone complain when Grandpa takes aspirin for his arthritis? Those pills just let me get on with life; nothing more nothing less.

[HuckleB]

208. You rock!

Keep on a going!

¡Salud!

[EndElectoral]

210. i've been depressed since Bush's appointment by the Supreme Court

[slutticus]

211. I can assure you the spectre of depression is very real. eom

[Jen72]

212. I personally started suffering from depression aged 14.....

I wasn't give any drugs for it, until I was 28 and they do help. Depression is very real, unfortunatly the drugs are addictive and tough to come off.

[slutticus]

213. I just went off of Wellbutrin...

...it's been really hard. It's been about 4 weeks and my sleeping habits still aren't back to normal.

[truthspeaker]

214. As one who has experienced it and gotten relief from Rx SSRIs, I say yes

[skygazer]

215. Yes

I was suffering from depression long before I was aware that a condition by that name existed. I suffered insomnia, which was sometimes interspersed by periods when all I did was sleep, migraine, deep bottomless incomprehensible despair, suicidal thoughts, fear of leaving my house, aversion to light and sound, loss of appetite, gastronomic disruption, feelings of worthlessness and self loathing... need I go on? How about light headedness, the feeling that I was living in a dream world, memory lapses, irrational fears.

The pharmaceutical companies are crooks and losers and they exploit those with illnesses ruthlessly. I tried every anti-depressant in the book for years after I was finally diagnosed but what saved me was not drugs - I'm not sure what it was but at the age of 43, I'm finally happy.