I need some help debunking a rabid Bush supporter

[wish_I_could_vote]

who is ( believe it or not ) claiming that Moore is the only one saying that Bush sat in the classroom for 7 minutes. That because Moore did not show the full 7 minutes, he edited out parts where the president was actually getting up and making phone calls.

I have pointed out that it was not Moore who was filming that day and that no one has stepped up to deny MM's claim, but she is insisting that the tape was edited.

[Jim Sagle]

1. Tell her to fuck off.

[wish_I_could_vote]

3. I would like to

but this argument is public, on a Disney board, one that has 60 thousand members reading it. That is why I want to make sure I shoot her down properly before this idea can take root.

[TransitJohn]

13. No

tell her to "go fuck" herself.

[Skittles]

29. I LIKE YOU JIM

YOU SAY IT LIKE IT IS. :thumbsup:

[ThomWV]

31. A Man After My Own Heart

Exactly the right answer. Why should you be forced to suffer fools?

[KC21304]

2. Ask her if she has heard Bush deny he was there 7 minutes.

So he got up, came back, got up came back. Yea that makes sense. That wouldn't make the kids wonder what was wrong with the idiot in chief.

[wish_I_could_vote]

5. I asked that

she insists that no denial means nothing....see what I am up against?

[Warpy]

4. The original is archived at Buzzflash and a few other places

It shows Bush just sitting there like Rove had told him chicken was off the menu on AF1 and lunch would be fish instead of that the country was under attack. Just type in "Booker School" in the Buzzflash search window. You'll have to drag him over to watch it on your computer. Hand him a watch.

My guess is that the boob is so far gone he'll insist that the video from the Booker School was doctored. Once they start worshipping that kind of little tin Jesus, it appears nothing short of losing a world war will get through to them.

[monarch]

6. Where do they come up with this stuff?

It is absolutely amazing that these idiots can be so positive about things that they should realize could not possibly be true.

[EST]

7. Keep in mind

this is the asylum...

[GmoneyOwnsAll]

8. Show her this...

http://www.tbtmradio.com/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/index.php?page=20040606205339801

[newyawker99]

26. Hi GmoneyOwnsAll!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[lebkuchen]

9. The video was taped by a teacher at Booker Elementary School

if I remember correctly.

The video was edited by Booker Elementary School and the school displayed it on the its own webpage.

Somebody on the net ran across it and sent it to Buzzflash, etc. Shortly after, Booker Elementary School removed the videofile from its webpage, for good.

There have been numerous attempts to contact the school and get the full version of the video, but the Sarasota ES has not cooperated in that effort.

His remarks to the staff, after he finished reading the Goat book, are here. It's amazing that after all the time that's already passed, he still had time for "a moment of silence." Frightening.

http://www.sarasota.k12.fl.us/emma/9.11.01/remarks.html

Here are photos taken during that time. Keep in mind, Bush had originally said he didn't leave immediately because he didn't want to scare the kids, yet he then makes his press conference right in front of them.

http://www.sarasota.k12.fl.us/emma/9.11.01/photogallery7.html

[wish_I_could_vote]

10. Thanks so much

I am watching the video right now, and will be so happy to pass it on

[Jazzgirl]

25. Here is a link to the entire video.

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/2002/06/scsb.bush.mov


It is 23 megs but if you have broadband you can download it.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. Do you have any expectation that you will change her mind, regardless

if Bush himself says on national TV that he sat there 15 min? (The administration has NOT denied this happened. They have only attempted to justify it by saying it was no big deal that he did this, tried not to panic people etc.)

Please, do not be disappointed if she will not change her mind under any circumstances. And then move on.

[wish_I_could_vote]

12. Damn

The video is cut and only shows him siting there for a couple of minutes.

[reprehensor]

14. Here's 5 solid minutes of nothing.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm

[diablerie]

15. I think I'd stay away from

this one and focus the discussion elsewhere.

I read a transcript on an enemy weblog that Kerry in his own words described how he and a few others sat in a Senate office for 40 minutes after the initial attacks "unable to think".

I'm not sure I'd want to attack on *'s 7 minutes only to have JFK's 40 minutes thrown back at me. It's a defensible position but may come across as making excuses IMHO.

[classof56]

16. Yes, but--Kerry wasn't in charge at the time.

The commander in chief, who could have taken immediate action that may have altered the course of that morning's events, did...nothing. Kerry's 40 minutes don't pass the "so what test", since neither he nor any other member of congress could have affected the outcome. Millions of people were shocked, stunned and unable to comprehend what was happening. But only Bush could have done something positive about it. Even if it was too late, his wait was, IMHO, inexcusable. As we all know, though, it's pointless to try to reason/argue with a closed mind.

BTW--welcome to DU!

Bush Must Go!!

[rfranklin]

17. Kerry was not Commander-in-Chief and was not in a postion...

to do anything. He had no authority to do anything. That was Bush's job.

Just think of what confusion would have resulted from Senators trying to do the job of the CIC.

It is always laughable when the retards of the right justify the failings of their "leaders" by dredging up something that Clinton was accused of (usually falsely). The question then is, Clinton sets the standards in their world?

[Mortos]

18. Kerry was a Senator

Bush was the President. What the fuck do you think a Senator could do. A Senator cannot order military planes to scramble. A Senator cannot order civilian aircraft shot down. A Senator is not the Commander in Chief. Bush either had information and did not act on it or wasn't given information by his staff. Either way, there was a terrible dereliction of duty by someone, yet no one has been held accountable.

I would be careful about posting what you read in "enemy web log(s)" so early in your DU career. Some of the less trusting souls may think your intentions are not so honorable.

[sandnsea]

19. Nice try

They were in a meeting. They sat down at the table and realized they couldn't think... about the friggin' meeting! They had no authority to do anything, had to be very frustrating. The firefighters, cops and EMT's knew what to do. Our President didn't. It's that simple.

[newyawker99]

27. Hi diablerie!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mountainvue]

40. Got a link for that one? n/t

[Mortos]

20. Wow!!!

The DU Rapid Response Team does not mess around. Post questioning Kerry's behavior on 9/11 recieves three responses in less than 13 minutes. Hey, that's faster than Bush responded after hearing about the first attack. Maybe all national security issues should go through DU instead of the Bush White House.

[w13rd0]

22. Hell, upon hearing about the FIRST attack...

...Bush went ahead with his planned photo op. It's the seven minutes of dead head time Bush suffered upon hearing about the SECOND attack that's being discussed here (for the umpteenth million time)...

[Jim Sagle]

46. And that's not counting all the alerts.

;-)

[wish_I_could_vote]

21. I don't have any expectation

of changing this person's mind. Anyone ridiculous enough to make such an idiotic argument is too far gone to reach. But I do want a counter argument out there for all those who are reading the thread. It is all too easy for some people to stop and think " hey, maybe Moore did doctor the film!".

[w13rd0]

23. Ask her why...

...when Booker was FILLED with cameras and videocameras, in the digital age, it is that NO ONE can provide original video footage? The Bush WH could release it to dispell this discussion, but since 7 minutes has been the MINIMUM amount of time it's been determined that he sat there, releasing original footage that showed 7+ minutes wouldn't serve their purpose.

A roomful of cameras, videotape, for a planned photo op...and no original footage. Why is that?

[wish_I_could_vote]

24. This is her actual post:

The fact is, we don't even know how long Bush sat there.

That the administration hasn't disputed that, indicates nothing. They haven't disputed any of the film and we know for a fact that there are many inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

But you're right--we haven't seen the whole tape. Why not? Why didn't Moore show the whole thing? Why haven't any reporters who filmed it showed the whole thing to verify the time?

We know it was 7 minutes because Michael Moore said it was 7 minutes. We know that in those supposed 7 minutes, he did exactly what Michael Moore showed he did in the 1 or 2--because Michael Moore says that's what happened.

The principal in the room at the time said that the video doesn't convey all that was going on in the classroom. She said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Seeing somebody's version who wasn't there is like asking a blind man to paint for me," she said. "There is nothing anyone can tell me to change my perspective, because I was there."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs..../406230347/1004

This from an ardent Democrat who voted for Clinton and Gore and privately considered Bush a phony.

What do other staff who were there say?

From a teacher waiting in the Media Center for his speech about education:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There's been a delay. He's busy doing what Presidents do. He'll be here shortly."

We stretched our legs some more and continued to wait.

Finally, "There's been a delay. He has to make some phone calls. He's still coming, though."

Just "doing what Presidents do" while they "make some phone calls" turned out to be the phone calls made in a nearby room to the director of the FBI, the Vice-President, and the Mayor of New York as the first contacts over what happened.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Another teacher waiting in the Media Center:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I stood on the platform with amazement on my face and pride and honor in my heart, I watched the Secret Service agent walk in my direction. He quickly approached the two congressmen standing immediately in front of me, and my amazement turned to curiosity. I was able to hear all "the important stuff". Within an instant, my curiosity shifted to disappointment as I heard the news of a plane crash into the World Trade Center in New York. "Would the President still visit?", I wondered. Moments later, disappointment was replaced by extreme loss and guilt as I overheard the second conversation. A second plane had crashed into the World Trade Center and it was considered a terrorist attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another Secret Service agent approached the congressmen again and asked them to exit for a briefing with the President.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And another:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The long wait for the President passed swiftly as I took pictures with staff, students, and parents. Shortly before the President arrived in our media center, we were hearing strange announcements. President Bush was on campus, we were told, but he had Presidential duties to attend to and would speak with us shortly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.sarasota.k12.fl.us/emma/...ughtsindex.html

So, according to these teachers, who wrote these accounts before all the Michael Moore flap, Bush talked to advisors in DC and the mayor of New York and held a briefing with the congressmen present.

He was told at 9:05 or 9:07, I've seen reports of both. If he sat there for 7 minutes, that makes is 9:12 or 9:14. In another 16-18 minutes he teleconferenced, held a briefing with congressmen, watched replays of the second plane hitting on the news, and edited his speech to the nation. Factor moving around time in there from classroom to holding room that had been secured and Media Center and surely discussion with Card, Fleischer and other staff over everything from what was happening to where he would be going next. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

So who even knows if it was 7 minutes. For all we know, it was the 1 or 2 Moore showed

[KayLaw]

32. I feel for you

I'll bet I know the site you mean and you're not the only person who posts here who has had unpleasant times there. There's a reason they had to get rid of the Debate board.

[wish_I_could_vote]

28. Thanks Jazzgirl

[Bridget Burke]

30. Then, Bush needs to have the full tape released!

There are several--as noted above, multiple cameras were there. While he's at it, he can release:

• His full military records.
  
• His full arrest records
  
• The real story about his medical condition
  
• The minutes of Cheney's energy meetings
  
• The notes from the pre-9/11 security briefings
  

[pretzel4gore]

33. "just like al queda....

the busheviks are also working to destroy america"...
tell her geeb said that; it's up on the WH website...they're openly treasonous, and ANYONE supports bush is a 'bennydick arnold'
(also claim the LORD told your pastor that all bush voters/repubs will be god-damned for all eternity!)
you can't reason with them....so fire a broadside!

[Cat Atomic]

34. Just tell her, "Bush has certainly locked up the idiot vote".

And ignore her. Anyone who still supports GW Bush is eithe a war profiteer or mentally deficient, or both.

[LiveWire]

36. The problem is...

You cant just ignore these people. The sad fact is that about half the country believes anything that comes out of the Presidents mouth. Even with job growth slowing, gas prices rising, and constant terror alerts, people still think he's doing a good job!

I dont deny that Fahrenheit 9/11 had some propaganda in it. However, everything that came out of the white house immediately after 9/11 was total bullshit. Bullshit, that I'm sad to say, I believed.

People often say, its easier to judge the painting than to actually paint it. This goes for the job of PotUS. However, If I were President, I certainly wouldnt have spent 1, let alone 7 minutes in some pointless photo-op while the people that voted for me are dying.
Maybe he didnt know it was an "attack". I know I certainly didnt until I saw the second plane crash into the tower (when I woke up on the west coast btw). You cant just claim that we didnt know. Of course I didnt know, I was an 18 year old kid on my way to high school that day, not the President of the United States. PotUS should be the most well-informed person in THIS COUNTRY! Regardless of the time of day or what photo-op you are at. Anyone with a cell phone in New York, or close proximity to a TV at the time knew of an attack minutes before the PotUS.

I dont have some questions though, maybe the DU can answer them.
1. Why dont I remember seeing any of this video remotely around the time of 9/11? And why did it take Moore's 9/11 to show it to everyone?
2. For that 7 minutes, or however long it was, who was actually in charge of the United States?
3. Why dont I hear of any journalists attacking the administration for the arguments that are so obvious? (The DU is quickly becoming my only trusted sorce for political info)
4. Why wasnt the Presidents behavior immediately after 9/11 called up in the 9/11 reports?
5. Where were Dick Chaney, Connie Rice, and the rest of the Presidents cabinet immediately after the attacks?

[napi21]

37. To answer some of your questions:

There were videos of shrub in the classroom, and comments about "7 minutes" ON 9/11/2001. Maybe because you are on the west coast, or maybe you are in school, you didn't have the chance to see them.

Shrub was still "in charge" of the US during the 7 minutes. The only thing that would have relieved him of power is if he would have been "unable to perform his duties as President". He was still concious, and thinking as good as his normal, so he was in charge.

Most journalists "suddenly" don't want to criticize the sitting President (after 8 years of slamming BC). I don't know why!

There is going to be a second report from the 9/11 Committee. The day they released their report, they announced this, but that it would probably not be done until after the election. This second report is supposed to affix blame, while they "agreed" not to put that info in the first report.

The cabinet members were in their offices, I think. Cheney was whisked out of his, and into the bunker under the WH. He then proceeded to the situation room in that same basement bunker. Condi, Rummy etc. all gathered there.

This info is out there, but mostly explained on c-span. It and DU are 2 of the places you get mostly unfiltered info.

[Sparkly]

35. HahaHA!!!

"parts where the president was actually getting up and making phone calls!!" Tooo funny! If he'd done that, why'd he sit back down?

[wish_I_could_vote]

41. you are exactly right Sparkly

Her arguments are so ridiculous. Why indeed would he get up and then sit back down again? I probably should just ignore her. I just know that for every poster who joins the political threads there are many who read and remain silent. Those are the ones I do not want swallowing this crap. I know that sounds so arrogant, and I do not mean to be that way. But there are way too many people who just never stop to think things through. And if I can make one person see the truth, then it is worth it.

[robpopulace]

43. Uh, excuse me mam, may I go potty...

Wouldn't the children be frightened by the president leaving the classroom to pee so much?

OMG MR. PRESIDENT, PLEASE, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

[mountainvue]

38. These people are really beyond help.

Kind of like those poeple in Dawn Of The Dead.

[skygazer]

39. Tell her to read the 9/11 commission report

It tells the whole tale and it wasn't just the seven minutes in the classroom - it was the time prior to entering the classroom when he knew one plane had hit, it was the time after he left when he spent valuable time putting together a statement to deliver (though he hadn't yet contacted anyone and had no idea what was going on).

"The President remained in the classroom for another five to seven minutes..."

edited to add quote directly from 9/11 report which * has commended

[NightOwwl]

42. The uncut video has been available for 3 years.

Here's the link:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/schoolvideo.html

If you friend can't believe her own eyes.....:shrug:

[salin]

44. bwahahahaha.... ya, right.

The lengths folks will go to keep cognitive dissonance at bay.

Someone at the school was taping the president that day - I believe it is accessible on the internet. Very uncomfortable to watch.

Ya - bush gets up and makes phone calls.... this person won't believe ANYTHING you say - because s/he has too much wrapped up in holding on to the image of bush trying to protect us and being in charge (and probably being "appointed by God") and thus anything contrary to that - is SO threatening psychologically (because then one really has to consider that some folks we elect and have faith in - are not just incompetent...but sometimes do things that are in our worst interest... which is too much for some folks to rectify with the image fed to us from kindergarten on about how noble the US is...)

Hadn't heard this attempt to explain away the behavior of bush that day. Find it rather amusing.

[Corgigal]

45. Hey Michael Moore

Did you read this? When the DVD comes out this would be a good time to have a "bonus feature" of the full video of Bush sitting there with a clock on top just ticking away. Then make sure you had the part where he used the kiddies as a backdrop to make his announcement that we are being attacked. Let the timer run on this one too.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

47. It would be very easy to detect and the "wingers" would know it

They would have brought Moore down immediately on that bunch of a BS lie.

News people know when something has been edited because they do it all of the time. Bush's staff would have known it also because they have to edit all of his canned speeches so that he will look like he can speak.

It's a load of BS and they know that. Bush is an idiot and he is the only person besides his staff that would have sat for 7 mins or even entered that classroom while the World Trade Center was being attacked unless he was in on it.

A vote for Bush is a vote for the destruction of our country and tell the people on that board that they aren't Americans because they don't believe in a free world. Bush wants to be a dictator and they want to make him into one. Tell them to turn the TV off once in a while and to stop watching FAUX and to get a personality and opinion of their own.