Who wants to move?

[ParisFrance]

I love this country! Bush has destroyed our economy, freedoms, allies, and more to be succint. Will their be a major immigration movement back to Europe? Just the opposite of what happened over 100 years ago.

[Bowline]

1. I don't believe so.

Despite the shortcomings of the past three years this country is still a pretty darn good place to live and the envy of a large portion of the planet. This is evidenced by the vast numbers of people who risk their lived each year just to get here.

[saracat]

12. They don't know any better. They think this is still the USA!

And you think this is still a darn good place to live?In comparison to where? Bangladesh, Sudan Or war torn impoverished nations? Our environment is shot, we have no health care, our children can't get an education, our veterans have no medical help , our soldiers don't get combat pay, and our educated populace can't get a job! My husband has a Masters in Global Management and can't get a job. We have no health care and I am sick.I am so outta here. As Theresa said "shove it".( Not you, the people who cause this)If Busco take the WH.We are gone.

[CaTeacher]

35. There are some great places with lots

of social welfare! I would start looking. How can people stand to live here--with the jack boots of Nazi fascists constantly on their necks?

[HopeArrival]

60. I understand the benefits of social welfare but

If someone is well off in a reliable job and enjoys the US then why would a place with lots of social welfare be enticing?

[RandomKoolzip]

68. I brush my teeth twice a day.

Ain't that somethin'?

[RandomKoolzip]

72. Whoops, I meant "I agree."

[dumpster_baby]

74. some species of higher animals exhibit "foresight."

Homo sapiens is a species of "Higher Animal" that can often foresee future consequences of things that happen in the present. For example, a prescient homo sapiens may extrapolate from current trends and predict that within 10 years, most Americans (> 50%) will not have healthcare because of the cost, and that wages in America will have dropped because of so-called free trade.

Such prescient homo sapiens may decide that it may be healthier being a citizen of a country where the citizens there are more aware of media manipulations and corporate shenanigans, and where citizens are more organized at a grassroots level, and where they look after each other better.

Now, such a prescient homo sapiens may realize that just because some larger percent of Americans will do better in the future, does not mean that MOST Americans will do better in the future.

That is what you might call hedging your bet, managing risk, etc. Higher animals are capable of such feats. Lower animals are not.

[democratreformed]

2. I don't want to move.

But, I have been unhappy with my country for quite some time. It's like we refust to move forward. We want to stay stuck in the dark ages. Actually, many of us are being forced to remain in the past - as far as rules and culture and such are concerned. And, I am sick of it.

On edit: I kind of go back and forth between wanting to move and wanting to try to stay and see if we can change things.

[cash-money liberal]

3. I'm outta here

I'm applying to tranfer to colleges in Canada. Not sure if I'll be coming back.

[newyawker99]

51. Hi cash-money liberal!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ceile]

4. I tried to get my fiance to move

back to his native Ireland, to no avail. But since we've split I've looked into Canada and Britain. If you don't have a masters, PhD, MD, etc, it is an uphill battle to even get the paperwork.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

8. Ireland is a distinct possibility for myself and

my husband. We own a house there with no mortgage and its completely furnished.

We lived in Ireland from 1997-1998 and came back, but if Bushco and the rest of the cabal are somehow returned to office, it's looking mighty tempting.

[saracat]

16. How hard is it to move to Ireland? Are their any employment opportunities?

Isn't it prohibitively expensive?

[NewJeffCT]

5. It depends on the next 4 years

Maybe then I'd consider a move to China...

[jjmalonejr]

6. Really?

I'll believe that when I see it.

[NewJeffCT]

14. why not?

I have relatives there, and with the equity I have in my home here, I could be a rather large villa in China (unless, that is, if Bush wins and the dollar collapses and China allows their currency to float or tie it to the Euro instead of the dollar...)

[jjmalonejr]

18. Didn't know you had relatives there.

What do they tell you about living in China as compared to what you already know about living in the United States?

[NewJeffCT]

34. Well

They live in the much more modern Eastern China and other than Visa issues - it's currently a lot harder to travel on a Chinese passport than a US passport - my wife prefers a lot of things about China as compared to the US.

[StandUpGuy]

55. I agree 100% about your dollar euro argument.

Please expand here or another post.

[ASanders84]

7. If Social Security is gone

when I'm old, I'm moving to Canada. The Democrats are the only ones who can save it.

Why is it that the U.S. has such a huge conservative following compared to other developed countries? DAMN THEM!

[ParisFrance]

11. Good point

Why is America the only developed country with a large conservative following?

[Surf Cowboy]

30. America is not as big on developing critical thought

in the education system. We don't care about art, music, literature, or unbiased history. Our kids don't learn enough math and science, and so they are more likely to believe the hokey creationist bullshit that their uneducated parents and preachers spew. Plain and simple, when you dumb it down, you get Repugs. That's why most of our best-educated people are liberals. Their minds are open and liberal and they are more likely to change their minds based upon the evidence (or flip-flop if you will), much like the Europeans and Asians who are out-competing our asses.

[Surf Cowboy]

32. I don't know that moving to Canada will really help

because you're still going to be just as affected by bad U.S. policy, and you won't even have a voice in changing it. Plus, you'll be CANADIAN, and I don't know about those Canucks...

[dumpster_baby]

43. mass media propaganda over decades

I guess you cannot search DU archives, but if you could you could dig up a lot of good posts on this subject. IMO, this question is the most important question a politically-involved progressive can ask.

Long story short, over the past 70 years, but mostly in the past 30, the big money in this country has mounted a conservative propaganda campaign via the media. THey own the media.

So why has this worked? People will accept the world as they see it. THe Big Money has created a worldview for them, and they accept it. But this is nothing new. It has happened a lot this century.

[SoCalDem]

46. If you are old and broke, Canada won't want you

Sorry, but it's the truth:(..

There are very few countries that will readily accept an older, poor person for emigration:(

[Sahjhan]

9. If Bush is re selected, I'm moving to Canada.

It's much closer. :)

[Tweed]

10. To move from America is being as selfish as Republicans

The more liberals in this country the better. If more and more liberals move, the more and more power conservatives will get in the most powerful country in the world. If anything, there should be a liberal immigration into this country to neutralize the conservatives! To move out of the country is a crime against the future of the world.

[saracat]

15. To continue to endorse what they do by staying and giving them

your money is a crime against the future. If Busco is reelected America itself will be continue to be a crime against the future!It is right now!

[Tweed]

17. But then you are just giving up and letting them get away with their crime

We need to stay in America to be vigilant watch dogs and elect officials who will do the right things in office.

[saracat]

20. If this nation is filled with enough people

who are dumb as rocks and want this kind of admin, who am I to force them to want something else? If there are enough people willing to fight I would join in, but if this nation is a vast majority of fools I don't want to be associated with it. You also haven't taken into consideration the fact that there might not be elections. There was'nt a presidential election last time as I recall.And we already have "malfunctioning " voter machines that can't be recounted.

[Tweed]

25. If it was 75% or 60% then I would be with you

But the majority of people voted against Bush last time and the country seems to be evenly divided. If there aren't elections then I'm with you too. But no elections would not slide with the majority of people in this country and the world. There would be major outcry from people who even supported Bush not to mention world outcry. Moving from a country where the balance of voting was less then 1% in the last election and citing that the majority of peole in this country are fools is absurd and counter productive. Thank God most liberals are reasonable and unselfish.

[saracat]

29. There was no real outcry when election 2000 was stolen.

And the vast majority of this country don't vote at all! The vast majority of this country are idiots. Have you ever taught? Or have you ever listened to the common folk on the street interviewed by Jay Leno?It would be funny if it wasn't sad! I had prep school seniors in a class that didn't know we had been a British colony. Did you know that that is no longer common knowledge?

[Tweed]

31. Wait and see what happens this time around

Again, you leaving the country would make this country worse. Also, those people on Jay Leno know that the dumber they are, the more likely they are to get on TV. That's one of the reasons why Jay Leno's show in unwatchable. David Letterman and Conan O'Brien for me.

[saracat]

38. I pray you are right! But remember the old adage,

"no one ever got elected underestimating the stupidity of the American voter!"But hope springs eternal.And the kids that I taught and the people that I talk to aren't just playing dumb to get on Leno. They are the genuine article.And we like that way. Dumb people are easily manipulated by fear.

[Piperay]

57. Just because

a person moves out of the country doesn't mean that you won't still vote. I am leaving but they will never be rid of me here, I am keeping my citizenship and will keep on voting Democratic by absentee.

[democrat_patriot]

13. I used to want to move.

Now I want to stay and fight. As long as it takes.

[oscar111]

19. Canada:resident alien?Plus..why US so RW

Is it easy to become an alien-n-residence in canada, not a citizen, just retired there?

Plus: answer to the anguished- compared to other industrialized nations , the usa is so RW because of the subsurface, hidden , unadmitted race war.

Others dont have this race war on such a large scale. Some, but not as large a percent are involved.

rednecks vote Repub because the repubs dont have to even say it... all rednecks know Repubs will "keep the blacks in their place".

This alliance of thieves {Repub party officials} and racists {R. voter millions} is the eternal drag on the US.

If we ever get jobs for all, there will be less cracker job-fear of blacks, and we will pull cracker votes away from the repubs.

http://www.njfac.org
jobs for all site... R. Reich of Clinton DOL is member.

[caledesi]

21. Me, Me, Me...want to move to Bermuda...

But my husband (a little OCD) doesn't want to make the move. Hurricanes and all that. If * wins....I am outta here for the next four years....I will threaten my husband (LOL!)

[Pallas180]

22. I think that is very likely if he gets in again, and if they continue with

the Patriot act.

[HopeArrival]

61. I'm looking any impacts the Patriot Act has had on American citizens

Can you help identify where it impacts us?

[RandomKoolzip]

69. Oh, you mean "white" Americans!

You should be more specific. And less transparent.


If Clinton had proposed the Patriot Act, you'd be screaming bloody murder; I don't expect you to admit it, though.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

23. what move and become a VICTIM of our foriegn policies?....never to scary

[info being]

24. I'm moving to Europe in 7 months, regardless of election

[maxsolomon]

26. moving takes a lot of money

and language skills.

neither of which i have.

but i'd go in a flash. every expat friend i have is so happy.

problem is, america, and the american lifestyle, is destroying the planet, and that won't stop no matter where you live.

[giant_robot]

27. I'm here for the long haul...

...but I think a brief 1-2 year stint overseas would be refreshing. It's nice to get out of the american culture and into another one once in a while.

[Centre_Left]

28. Europe is becoming just as fascist as the US...

The bastards in France and Germany are even trying to repeal the 35-hour work week in favor of wage slavery!

[ParisFrance]

40. They have to because the 35 hour makes for a weaker economy

The less time business is open;the less time their is to consumer or be a customer.

[bobbyboucher]

49. But more time to read a book,

which might help some.

[blm]

33. NO! NO! NO! There's too much work to do here.

We don't let evil win. No way - No day. We FIGHT first.

[democratreformed]

36. Very well said!

No, we won't roll over and let them have it! I'm with you.

[dubyaD40web]

37. Not me!

I'm grabbing my chewy bars & guns and will fight the Bushies!

[bikebloke]

39. Moving to another country is not as easy....

... as moving to another state. Many of the boats are full, with high unemployment. Lots of red tape. I tried years ago, when there was less pressure from population growth. No problem with languages, as I tend to pick them easily. One could always enter as a tourist, then hunker down illegally. But what kind of life is that, always looking over your shoulder. The sure venue is to marry someone for residency. I had offers, but was too wise to get stuck with those women.

[dumpster_baby]

41. I have looked into Ireland and Canada

Right now I am in my mid 40s and unemployed, even with 2 college degrees. I have healthcare via the Vets Admin hospital system, but if that gets defunded even more, I am looking into moving to Canada or Ireland. My mother was born in Canada and her mother was born in Ireland. I would be able to get citizenship in both of those countries. I am considering moving there mainly for the universal healthcare and the social safety net (however, I am also planning to go to law school next year, and if that works out, I will be staying...).

Of course, if you are an informed progressive, like many here on DU, you probably already realize that what makes these countries better than American for most working-class American citizens is that, ultimately, the people there trust and care for each other more. They are more united and in solidarity with each other than Americans. They are more united at the bottom, at grassroots level. Americans are united, also, but only from the top, via the media. Witness the 9-11 media manipulation circus.

As for other countries, you may look into Australia. THey have universal healthcare, and if you are under 45 years old and are college educated, you can get in. Canada is much the same as Australia--you can get in if you are young and educated.

As for the West European countries, which are all pretty much better for working class people than America, they are really pretty hard to get citizenship. Yes, you might be able to go there and work, but withour citizenship, you might have a tough go of it when you get older.

Actually, there is only one country in the world that accepts immigrants in any amount, without qualification or criteria -- Paraguay. And that is just a hot hellhole.

[dumpster_baby]

42. I have looked into Ireland and Canada

Right now I am in my mid 40s and unemployed, even with 2 college degrees. I have healthcare via the Vets Admin hospital system, but if that gets defunded even more, I am looking into moving to Canada or Ireland. My mother was born in Canada and her mother was born in Ireland. I would be able to get citizenship in both of those countries. I am considering moving there mainly for the universal healthcare and the social safety net (however, I am also planning to go to law school next year, and if that works out, I will be staying...).

Of course, if you are an informed progressive, like many here on DU, you probably already realize that what makes these countries better than American for most working-class American citizens is that, ultimately, the people there trust and care for each other more. They are more united and in solidarity with each other than Americans. They are more united at the bottom, at grassroots level. Americans are united, also, but only from the top, via the media. Witness the 9-11 media manipulation circus.

As for other countries, you may look into Australia. THey have universal healthcare, and if you are under 45 years old and are college educated, you can get in. Canada is much the same as Australia--you can get in if you are young and educated.

As for the West European countries, which are all pretty much better for working class people than America, they are really pretty hard to get citizenship. Yes, you might be able to go there and work, but withour citizenship, you might have a tough go of it when you get older.

Actually, there is only one country in the world that accepts immigrants in any amount, without qualification or criteria -- Paraguay. And that is just a hot hellhole.

[ParisFrance]

52. question for you

If you have ancestry in countries are your chances of getting in much higher?

[dumpster_baby]

63. Canadian Parent auto-grants you canadian citizenship; same for Ireland

But Ireland also automatically grants you citizenship if you have a grandparent who was born in or a citizen of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

[bex]

75. are you sure about that

Do you have a link re Irish citizenship for American grandchildren?
What about New Zealand?

[dumpster_baby]

76. search "ireland" + "granny rule" n/t

[dumpster_baby]

79. Italy also has a granny rule for immigration

Italy might be a better place to live. It has the best medical care system in the world.

[dumpster_baby]

80. England also has a granny rule. However....

However, it takes 5 years to get your citizenship and full social safety net benefits. Ireland gives you citizenship right away. I don't know whether Italy gives you citizenship, or whether you just get residency or not, or whether you have to be there for a certain number of years before you get citizenship.

[laruemtt]

44. DH and i ARE moving next august - to:

St. Lucia! he's going to med school there so it isn't a direct result of bushco's destruction machine. but we're a whole lot more likely to stay there or on one of the islands if * gets back in than not. his family's got a couple of homes in the country in jamaica so the reasons for coming back are harder and harder to hear. oh well - dirty work but somebody's gotta do it, ha-ha.....

[smirkymonkey]

45. Does anyone know what countries allow citizenship upon Marriage?

I have wanted to live in Europe again for a while now, and it may be the right time.

I fear that, with another 4 years of *, we will be living in a repressed, totalitarian state and would not be able to effect any kind of significant change in our government for the threat of "institutionalization" or death.

Seriously.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Most countries will give you automatic residence and a work permit if you

marry a citizen of that country, but I don't know of any that give you automatic citizenship, although some let you gain citizenship in a shorter period of time than other people.

[dumpster_baby]

64. most do. I know denmark does, and that is a good country to live in

However, most such mixed marriages do not work long term. Communication problems. Language problems, etc.

[divineorder]

47. Mexico, anyone?

Working class with an Associate Degree means my options are far more limited, but maybe going South of the Border would be easier if en masse with the returning Mexican-Americans. It probably would be easier to set up some kind of business, get property and so on, and the climate would be very good-anybody talking about helping Mexico upgrade so that it would take in a lot of Northern immigrants?

[newyawker99]

53. Hi divineorder!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Piperay]

56. Mexico is

where I am planning on moving whether or not Kerry gets in. I think it is too late to reverse the mess here, I don't feel good about things anymore. :-( I'm leaving for personal reasons and not political but leaving the mess the repukes have made will be icing on the cake. ;-)


WELCOME divineorder! :hi:

[Lorien]

58. Me too. Not Mexico, but Canada or Europe

I've also just had enough of American "culture"; too materialistic, too superficial, too mean spirited, too selfish, too many of those who are proudly ignorant. Other countries have problems of their own, of course, but I always feel much less frazzled when I'm abroad and somewhat overwhelmed when I'm driving home from the airport after a trip (the amount of advertising we're subjected to here is astonishing, for one). if I can afford it, I'm getting out!

[bobbyboucher]

48. And they will know the by thy spelling.

ParisFrance? How obvious.

[Elginoid]

50. New Zealand is where we're headed...

definitely if the lil'dictator remains in control...

quite possibly if Kerry makes it.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

62. Win Or Lose.....

The United States of America is my home, AND NO MAN RUNS ME OFF MY HOME!!!!

You can all leave if you want to, but I'd rather stay and fight for my country.

If we don't win in 2004, we will be in opposition, fight for our issues and get after the municipal elections in 2005, and the congressional elections in 2006. We'll lay the groundwork for 2008 as well.

But I believe we will win the day and from there we will work on our issues as Democrats and progressives.
Imagine what our nation would be like if all the non-conformists and contrarians ran from power and hid.

Imagine if the early colonists decided, "This Valley Forge thing is too hard. I'm leaving."

Imagine Victoria Woodhull saying, "You know ladies, we'll never get this sufferage thing going..I QUIT!"

Imagine Woodrow Wilson saying, "The world can't be safe for Democracy forgettaboutit!"

How about FDR, "We have everything to fear, this Depression thing is just too depressing."

Just think if Martin Luther King said, "You know there's just too many water cannons and dogs and those jail cells aren't inviting. I just wanna have my church. Leave me out of this!"

Thank God for us that none of these people quit!

Ain't gonna let nobody turn me 'round!

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RandomKoolzip]

66. Has the New World Order taken his guns away yet?

Remember that big crackdown on gun owners after Waco? Neither do I.

Your brother (i.e you) isn't of Arab descent, is he?


To quote Bill O'Reilly, "Am I WRONG?! Am I WROOONG?!"

On edit: Next time, just post "I agree" to get your post count up.

[Gregorian]

65. I do. But I'm staying.

Recently gave Canada a very big effort. But immigration takes 1 1/2 years.
It's not as easy as it first seems.
Of course, if one is rich, they can buy themselves into any country.

[iconoclastic cat]

67. What about all of our well-founded fears?

Couldn't we get asylum?

/half-joke

[Gregorian]

71. I doubt it. Not unless you are Sudanese.

It's somewhat complex. But in a nutshell they aren't just letting anyone in. Not unless they meet specific requirements. And I believe it's that way all over the world.
We are, in a sense, incarcerated within our own borders.

[Swamp Rat]

70. I'm gonna stay and FIGHT! I was happily living in Brasil up until

last year. I could have stayed but I returned because I want to help save America. If this country falls apart, the whole world will be in jeopardy. I'll move back AFTER we have ground Bush&Co into dust!

[RandomKoolzip]

73. I ain't movin'....but I ain't brooking any shit any more either.

Time to buy guns, everybody.

[GmoneyOwnsAll]

77. I have to move...

my sanity is slipping away. If Bush steals the election again, or wins it because of the an attack which would get everyone to rally around him. I'm forcing my parents to sell the house, which I can because I own 50% of it. Then moving out of this country. This administration has driven me crazy. I now hear voices saying "Saddam" "Al Qauda" from the tv when Im not looking. Then turn and see it's a commercial for some sports show.

[ringmastery]

78. check out PANAMA

CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP place to live and drop dead gorgeous.

http://www.escapeartist.com/Isla_Solarte/Isla_Solarte.html

http://www.bocasdeltoro.net/lots/index.html