Canvassing today - what an eye opener and jaw dropper!

[Raven]

Troy, NH. Must have talked to 100 people. We had 5 questions: 1) are you likely to vote in the November presidential election; 2) what are the two biggest issues that concern you; 3) on a scale of 1 to 5,how likely are you to vote for Kerry; 4) how likely are you to vote for Bush; 5) how likely are you to vote for Nader.

The neighborhoods we canvassed were predominately lower middle class, working people, we also covered some subsidized housing.

ALMOST 50% of the people we canvassed said that they had never voted and did not intend to vote. Many of them said this with great pride, a few with real anger. Some said that their vote didn't matter anyway.

I was floored by this! These are the people who have the most to gain or lose and they have no faith in this democracy. I don't know how we reach these folks!

BTW, of the people who were registered to vote, no one wanted Nader and Kerry had a slight edge, a very slight edge.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. They feel like the system is always screwing them

and that they aren't heard. I tell folks like that they must vote so they have the right to gripe. It has worked some of the time.

[JackRiddler]

126. It's no surprise, really

Many here won't like it but this is what happens when you don't put up an opposition, constantly retreat and fail to provide an alternative other than "we won't be as bad." That's been the Democratic program. I've been watching this for many years now and they never seem to learn, or really they don't want to because although they have a different clientele from the Republicans, they happen to have many of the same sponsors.

The same mistake was made this year as always. Kerry's in good shape because Bush really is the worst ever, but look at what's called a choice: as usual, you can choose the guy who is pro-war or for the war; the one with hardline domestic policy or domestic hardline policy; the one who plays to your fears or the one with empty rhetoric about hope and change.

The day the Democrats risk being different and stick to it for more than fortnight...

Or the day there is media access for all and your vote actually counts (as in, instant run-off or proportional representation)...

That is when many of these people will actually participate in politics.

Patronizing them with talk of how the non-voters are fools or to blame for society's problems isn't going to attract them.

[TexasSissy]

2. Hard to believe! And I bet they complain the loudest!

:bounce: WTF???!!!!

[Raven]

5. Many of these people appeared to be without hope.

Not the ones who wore not voting like a medal, but the others.

[TexasSissy]

12. Without hope for what, I wonder?

[mandyky]

21. Have you ever been to a project style housing complex?

They know their only way out is a body bag or winning the lottery.

I was once a battered woman and was going to relocate but the halls and elevators looked like prisons, 50 boom boxes playing 50 different things blasting out of the windows. I would not have let my kids walk to the elevators alone more or less let them go out to the play area. I went back to the abuser for another 2 years. I am from a rural area and this city project was something I knew me and the kids would not handle well.

[TexasSissy]

26. I've never lived in one, but I've seen them in person and in the news.

All the more reason to vote, IMO.

The way to get out is to get a better job, I guess.

But he didn't say they lived in the projects. He said it was a lower middle class, working class neighborhood. The kind that needs good healthcare, lots of jobs, will rely on Medicare, etc. There is hope for these things...but only if they vote.

Some people are just apolitical and don't participate in society. I used to be that way, when I was younger. It was mainly the way I was raised (my parents weren't involved politically), and I was uneducated about politics. I didn't see the connection between voting and the day to day things that it would affect in my life.

[mandyky]

46. If they had the ability and/or education to get a better job

do you really think they'd live in places like that.

I worked as a Residential Aide at a Job Corps and I told all "my kids" not to go back home, which usually was Long Island or NYC, but to stay in our fairly rural, crime free area. If you live in a toilet, you get flushed with the rest of the crap, unless you get lucky or get some good advice...

Do all Texans think people are poor because they are lazy, or something? No offense - but your better job comment was so - well- so George Bush...

[TexasSissy]

66. I believe in every person's ability to better his or her situation.

I did not say, "Let them eat cake."

Assistance is just that - assistance. Here in America, it is usually a temporary thing, to assist while someone tries to get ahead. There are no projects here in Texas, anymore, that I know of. Section 8 has replaced that, as well as in Louisiana. That is a wonderful program. Maybe the north doesn't have it. I explain it in another post. But I believe it is a federal program, so your state should have it, as well. It means that people do not have to live in projects, as long as they have a job. But they must have a job. If they have a job, they can get subsidized under Sec. 8 for housing. This is regular housing in regular neighborhoods, not "poor" neighborhoods. Your subsidy is on a sliding scale, depending on your income. There is a long waiting list for Sec. 8 housing. Here in my state, if you don't have a job and can't afford housing, you become homeless. Same thing in my home town in Louisiana.

We all try to get ahead, don't we? I did, back when I couldn't buy meat (I bought tons of cans of green beans on sale), and lived paycheck to paycheck. I didn't have a checking account...you have to have money to have a checking account. I couldn't afford the service fee, anyway. But I was young and striving to get a better job so that I could live better. I finally was able to get ahead, although I will never be wealthy.

This is what America is all about, isn't it? A land where you can get the opportunity to learn new skills, get a better job, get assistance with housing in the meantime, get assistance with food? If it were up to Bush, there would no assistance at all. To say that people should work toward getting a better job is not anti-people, anti-American, or anti-Democratic. Of course, the jobs have to be there in the first place, which they are not right now.

There are situations where people cannot better themselves, such as those who are disabled or have several children. There are financial assistance programs that help in those cases. There are no programs that give adults money or free housing, that I know of. Although they can get food stamps. But if they have children, they can get
monetary assistance, health care assistance, and other things. Disabled people can collect under SSI or Soc. Sec. (although it's a bear to go thru the red tape for it, but it's there).

I believe everyone should have a marketable skill. To work a job that doesn't require that is what many of us have to do for awhile, but then you spend your evenings and weekends trying to learn a marketable skill. Wages for marketable skills are higher than for jobs that don't require special skills.

Sorry if you think my thinking that people can and should better their situations, when given assistance and time, is Republican. It is not. I'm a more moderate Dem. than those on the far left. But my beliefs, to my dismay sometimes, pretty much mirror those of the average person. I've been there, done that. Got a sister who is on the verge of becoming homeless and can't get (or keep) a job. Got a brother working at a plant who would lose his livelihood if the plant closed. I myself have been through extremely difficult times....I'll pit my hardships against anyone else's. I know what's what. And there's a rightful place for compassion. I have it. But I also believe in bettering oneself and the dignity and pride that comes with it.

[never cry wolf]

79. Have you ever read "The Corner"?

Very compelling book, there are some, way too many actually, who don't try because they don't see the point. Their whole lives are spent within a two or three mile area. It really is an enlightening read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767900316/qid=1091406870/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/103-3579081-1248657?v=glance&s=books

Not to be argumentative with you, nor to argue that all the poor need handouts. Just that many have no concept as to how to go about getting a better jon, getting an eduaction or that there is a corelation between the two. Money is fast and easy on the streets.

[mandyky]

82. I understand that, but some people need more help than others,

and some have been down so long, been betrayed so many times, been red-taped to death and do not associate voting as part of the solution.

I have been homeless myself, been a battered woman who went back to my abuser rather than raise 3 kids in a project style housing. I also am a veteran and know I could have done better, but when you have 3 kids it is not just about you getting a better job, it is also about providing for your children in the process.

Saying get a better job and finding out the steps you need to take and then to get there take time. In the process some people give up.
I didn't and you didn't, but some people DO get bogged down.

[TexasSissy]

139. Yes, and there is govt assistance for them. What's your beef

with my saying they should TRY to better their financial situations? What could you possibly have against that? Do you think they are such losers that they are incapable of doing that?

[Lindacooks]

84. That's a very common Repuke attitude:

"If I can do it, why can't others help themselves?"

Well, not everybody on this earth is like you. There are many, many reasons why people can't get ahead. Did you know that depression is the second most debilitating illness in medical history, only after last-stage heart disease? Mental illness is a common reason many people CAN'T 'help themselves'. If you don't have it, you're just plain lucky. And if you haven't been in an abusive relationship, count yourself lucky again.

But it's probably pointless to try to argue with you, because if you think that others are like you, you really don't have compassion. And if you think the safety net is strong and whole in this country, think again. Poverty, homelessness, and hunger is rampant in this country, and that is an absolute moral sin.

[mountainvue]

89. Excellent point about depression.

It is far more debilitating than people know. Some people don't even realize they have it.

[midwayer]

102. Thanks for posting that (eom)

[amandabeech]

113. Most of them did not start in a project. n/t

[no name no slogan]

122. Amen Lindacooks. And when did the Dems become Greenspan fans?

I'm on three different medications to control my chronic major depression-- and sometimes, even those can't keep the wolves from the door.

IMHO, the reason why so many of these folks don't vote is because they have not benefit from a Democratic administration in an economic sense.

Look at how the poor fared during eight years of Clinton: the gap between the rich and poor expanded at an alarming rate, the wage gap also widened. For most of the Cliton "boom", the situation for the poor stayed the same, or even got worse for many.

"Welfare Reform" did NOTHING for the working poor, other than get them off a subsistance welfare income and into a coule sub-subsistence-level jobs that barely covered their own expenses, much less their family's.

These people lived through both Republican and Democratic administrations, and their own situations didn't change a bit for most of them. As far as they can tell, there's no difference between the parties, except for one promises great things and doesn't deliver, while the other one just ignores them.

The abandonment of economic populism by the Dems is one of the great mistakes the party has made, IMHO. Our economic agenda has become too similar to that of the Wall Street Republicans, and has even been set by Wall Street (Bob Rubin, a Clinton Administration alumnus and a Kerry economic advisor, is the freaking Chairman of CitiGroup, one of the biggest firms on Wall Street, fercryinoutloud!!!).

As the Democrats started sounding more like the Repubs on the economy, the only difference they could see between the two parties was that the Repubs had more "traditional" social values-- oftentimes, more in line with working-class Americans than the 'Wall Street cultural elitists'.

And we all know what's happened: the socially-conservative (but economically liberal) working-class voter has migrated to the Republicans, where they oftentimes vote against their own economic interests because of the hot-button social issues!!!

But all is not lost: if this party redefines itself as the party of the working class, the party of Main Street and not Wall Street, the party who stands for protecting American jobs instead of exporting them, we CAN recapture these voters.

Democrats have ALWAYS won on our economic programs. Once we abandoned populist economic policy, we essentially handed the working-class vote to the Repubs.

Recommended reading on this subject: "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank.

[TexasSissy]

141. It's pointless to try to argue with you, because you apparently

think that most poor people are such losers that they couldn't possibly better themselves in any way. Common Repuke attidue. "We're better than they are. They're poor because they don't deserve to be wealthy. We're obviously smarter and worthier."

I don't believe that. Not ALL people on welfare can get out of it. But MOST can...and MOST do, after enough time.

What's your problem with my saying that people should TRY to better themselves. That's one of the biggest advantages of living in America....opportunities exist here that don't exist elsewhere. They should at least TRY.

If someone wants total support for his entire lifetime for not even TRYING to do better financially.....he won't get it in any capitalistic or democratic society.

You are the one without compassion. You are the one who succumbs to the defeatest attitude that all is lost when the chips are down. I feel sorry for you.

[liberalhistorian]

85. I do understand where you're coming from, and

agree with you for the most part. The problem is, we're looking at it from a middle-class perspective, a perspective that has never had to deal with 90% of the shit these people live with on a daily basis. When you've grown up with this kind of thing, it's very, very hard to get out of that hopeless mode of thinking. And when you're working at a low-wage deadend job, barely making ends meet, and every day is a struggle just to take care of the basics, then it's extremely difficult to think of anything else. Not impossible, mind you, just a lot more difficult. It's very easy for those of us who've never had to deal with that to say what you're saying in your post, but we've never had to deal with that world.

I got a taste of that myself once. Although from a middle-class background, there was a time when I was laid off with no other job in sight and no money and I'm a single mother to boot. I was on ADC and it was the most humiliating, degrading experience of my life, as grateful as I was for it at the time. I had nothing, but that didn't mean I still didn't have bills to pay or that my creditors gave a damn that I couldn't find a job despite my college degree and experience, and that I wasn't even receiving the court-ordered child support which would have helped so much. Every day was so exhausting, trying to scrape together what little I could just to meet the basics, dealing with collectors and creditors constantly phoning, trying to make payment arrangements when I had no idea of what my income would be or if I would even have anything, being refused treatment by my doctor of twelve years because I had no insurance and no money to pay upfront, worrying about the car breaking down or anything else like that happening because I had no money to deal with it, being made to feel like shit every single fucking day by those who saw me as a worthless bum just because I didn't have any money, etc., etc., etc. The feeling of complete, total, utter hopelessness and despair, and the humiliation, is extremely difficult to accurately describe. If people have grown up with that and have to deal with that all the time, then it's no surprise to me that they then don't have the energy to even think about anything else.

[bread_and_roses]

109. What a moving, vivid account

and true in my experience, the stresses of living in poverty are so debilitating that one doesn't have the energy to think or do anything about anything else.

[midwayer]

116. I'm so glad to see someone put it into perspective

the way you just have in your post. That was everything I would have wanted to say to the ones who really have not the clue nor have ever been there.

Until you have really been there, you can't grasp what it's like.

Thanks,

I'm printing this out

[RobinA]

146. Yes, And It's Very Expensive

to be poor. Constantly paying fees for everything, charged fees for being late with payments. Your driver's license suspended for not paying child support. This helps how? Welfare money is something if you can get it, but it's nowhere near enough to actually get somewhere. Not to mention the rampant mental health issues and what I believe to be the prevalence of learning disabilities in the very poor population. Not to mention the fact that it takes a college degree to figure out how to fill out a welfare application.

Here's my favorite - at least a 30 day wait to receive subsidized day care once you apply. And you can't even apply if you don't have a job. So what to do with the kids for the 30 days? Who thinks up this stuff?

[bread_and_roses]

108. what America is all about

for all too many, is not "A land where you can get the opportunity to learn new skills, get a better job, get assistance with housing in the meantime, get assistance with food?" There are endless ways to deny people critical assistance, more since Clinton's ill-named welfare "reform" which has caused untold hardship. County Social Service departments are all too often more in the business of finding ways to deny people to keep costs down than finding ways to help them achieve self-sufficiency. It is a myth anyway, that even everyone capable can achieve "living better." If everyone in poverty suddenly became skilled, where are the jobs? Poverty at the working poor and "poor poor" for lack of a better term is structural - the system relies on it for disposable labor while allowing just enough flexibility that a few can make it out - fueling the myth that it's all about personal responsibility.

I would be very surprised, for instance, to discover that Texas food banks were not over-burdened and that there are not invisible homeless, despite Section 8 - funds for which have always been inadequate and are now being cut, I think.

I am not attacking you, you have obviously worked hard through some hard times, and have more of an understanding than many about the need for assistance for those at the poverty level, and even have an awareness of the burdensomeness of the process of receiving aid. You do not sound callous or indifferent. But there are far more complicated and entrenched causes for poverty than simply people being unskilled or not taking advantage of the inadequate programs available to them.

As for "complaining the loudest" why shouldn't they? They are totally ignored by the politicians who come to them every few years or so for votes...and only that when they are in a close election.

[Bridget Burke]

136. There is public housing in Texas.

Check this out: www.texashousing.org/txlihis/phdebate/intro1.html

It's cool that you think everybody can better themselves, but the thrust of this thread is not about those disgusting poor people who suck up your tax dollars. It's about people who don't think it's worth their while to vote.

[DavidFL]

147. Yes, Sec. 8 is a Federal program and available nationwide

However, a landlord is not legally obligated to take in a tenant receiving Sec. 8. And while landlords in "regular" neighborhoods in Texas make accept Sec. 8 renters, in places where I have lived, like NYC, many landlords didn't want Sec. 8 renters. I lost count of how many landlords asked me if I was Sec. 8 when I would call to inquire about a unit. I used to know a landlord in Arizona who wouldn't accept Sec. 8 renters because when he was in Army, Sec. 8 meant someone who was crazy. So while Sec. 8 renters in Texas may find decent housing, it's not the case elsewhere in the country and these renters have to take whatever they can get.

[Tight_rope]

123. You my dear have hit the nail head on!

"See the connection between voting and the day to day things that it would affect in my life".

This is what people need to know. This is what people need to be telling folks who should be voting.

I get so mad and want to spit fire, when I hear people say that "POLITICS IS FOR THE POLITIANS". I'm sure many of us use to think this way, until the shit came creeping on your door steps. Then we woke up and realized that it's really not about "Politics"...it's about "Life".

[burrowowl]

152. Do you in your right mind

think that at this point (after Raygun convinced many Americans to vote for him) after the brainwashing of decades after the early 1900's that voting for either party is going to change the American Horatio Alger landscape?! And the power of wealth? Kerry has been handed to us as a bone with very little meat, as Theodore Roosevelt was: they ruling class is seeing what it can get away with, remember they wanted us to fight with Hitler. Do you really think Kerry is going to bless and have enacted real universal health care, affordable housing, fix the prison problem, etc.? I'm voting Kerry because maybe it will delay our descent into virulent fascism as opposed to run of the mill for the U$, for the rest of the world we are already there.
Please read Howard Zinn's: A Peoples' History of the United States and Kevin Phillip's: Wealth and Democracy, Gore Vidal's novel: Empire.

[yardwork]

101. Good for you for being a survivor!

Some people can't imagine what it is like to live with an abuser and try to protect your children, your life, and your sanity.

Congratulations on getting away. Stay safe and God bless.

[midwayer]

22. It's not hard to believe

They trust NO politicians & ....I see it all the time and is a huge number of people in this country who feel no matter how hard they try they will never achieve the American Dream. There are a large amount of lower middle who will not vote either.

IMO They are right to feel this way due to the lying, corruption, opression and predatory practices this country has dealt out for the last 100 years.

Now, OTOH it IS extremely critical that they do vote this election day.

Ask them: Would you vote if I told you that the election this year is the difference between living in a dictatorship/facism and "we the people" regaining our rights and holding on to our constitution?

Might help, but most probably would laugh and not believe you as they are not as informed after being spoon fed through the general media.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasSissy]

50. Please explain. Hard hearted in what way?

Because I think that getting a better job would help get someone out of the projects? Or because I think that it's sad that someone wouldn't vote in order to better their situation?

Haven't you heard of the old saying, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." It's an old saying. I didn't make it up. But I do admit that I believe it. If you don't vote for the congress people who make the laws, or the President who issues executive orders, then you lose the right to complain about the laws that are passed and the executive orders that are issued.

It seems to me that most people, not just me, are dismayed at the fact that half the country doesn't vote.

As far as getting a better job...that is what we all strive for, isn't it? And a person DOES want to get out of the projects, doesn't s/he? (Except now we have Sec. 8 housing instead of just the projects, which was brought about by Democrats. This gives subsidies to poor people, which allows them to live in regular housing in regular neighborhoods, with assistance, depending on their income level. I didn't think projects, as such, existed anymore in America, actually. They are gone here and in Louisiana, replaced by Sec. 8.)

BTW, my sister has been unemployed for a long time. She came close to become homeless a couple of years ago. We are hoping (that's right, HOPING, that she gets a job so that she can get into Sec. 8 housing. Sec. 8 housing is a good thing.). How will she get out of assistance? She knows, I know, and the rest of the family knows how....by getting a better job. Are you against working to improve oneself to get higher wages? Learn new skills? Or anything of that sort? If so, then you and I differ on that point.

[salin]

64. I am guessing that it isn't about "getting a better job"

but about relating to (and even turning into the political conversation) the challenges that might block that from being a reality.

Are their better jobs available, does the person have transportation, is the person qualified for those jobs - and if not is the training required available/affordable? Are their physical challenges to holding those jobs and do the jobs make accomodations?

All of these questions seem to have fallen out of the political discussion since somewhere in the mid-eighties. There was a fleeting discussion per welfare reform that tied the need for daycare and the allowance of using some work requirement time to be applied to education and training time. But bushco quietly changed these things making it harder to qualify for workfare while attending education programs that would enable one to get a better job, and while creating greater barriers and funding cuts to accessing childcare. Fifteen years ago there would have been a much louder cry over this - and it would have worked into the public discourse. It pretty much came and went quickly - with some democratic party derision of the bushies over the issue - and then disappeared. The only thing left from the discussion in the public discourse is the "get a better job" part of it - which without the rest of the conversation can be a pretty empty statement for many folks depending upon their circumstances.

[TexasSissy]

78. We have found some common ground, I believe.

It seems to me that there is not enough assistance to help people get on their feet. I am going through this with my sister. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't realize that there's a problem.

But she is the exception, rather than the case, I would say. Her age, her physical condition, her job history, her personality (difficult) all give her marks against her ever finding and keeping a good job. But she's not bad off enough for, say, disability. But the state provides computers and computer training (it's not good, but it's available). Were it not for her family supporting her, she would be homeless. I was shocked to learn that there are no programs, state or federal, that would really help her out financially. She was able to get food stamps, which helped. But only $139 a month! She's in too bad a physical condition for people to want to hire (she's also middleaged), but she's not bad off enough to qualify as disabled, according to Soc. Sec. She's in a warp zone. (On top of all of her problems, she then got sick and landed in the hospital for three weeks. At least the state had not yet closed that Medicaid hospital; otherwise, there would have been no hospital for her to go to.)

But most people are not in her condition. I would say that MOST (not all) can get learn a marketable skill that would enable them to get a better job. And most want to. They just need some help temporarily. If they live in an area that doesn't have good public transportation (like my sister), maybe they can figure out a way to move to an area that has that. I had to. Yes, the devil is in the details. And some people just aren't equipped emotionally to deal with life's problems. But most can, most want to, and most are able to (given the time and assistance) better their job situations. But it does seem to me that there is less assistance than is required these days. Children must be a huge hurdle to doing anything. I think there should be more day care, more food stamp allowances, more housing assistance, more active job training. It would be a dream to have transportation assistance, but I guess that would cost too much. But it'll be a start to get a Democrat in office, and hopefully start with MORE JOBS. Because one thing is certain: you can't get a better job if there aren't any jobs to apply for.

[bread_and_roses]

114. Yes - "more day care, more food stamp allowances..."

etc. All those problems are inadequate - as you have seen yourself.

[TeacherCreature]

83. Better job? Better job?

There are many places where there are NO jobs, much less better ones. Thank to right to work states like Texas, good jobs have moved south to where people are grateful to work for 8 dollars an hour. In the rust belt jobs have simply disapated into thin air.

[mountainvue]

90. Right to work=

right to get fired.

[mandyky]

104. Right to work is about union busting

It allows people to work in Union Shops without joining the union and paying dues.

[TexasSissy]

138. Yes, there are better jobs out there, Virginia. I stand by my statement.

There are some people, sometimes who cannot better their situation. But MOST can, after given time and assistance.

I MOVED from an area years ago with 30% unemployment. Some people need to MOVE...move away from family, from friends. You MUST go to where the jobs are. You MUST learn a marketable skill.

Govt assistance is not to provide for those who don't try to better themselves. It a temporary measure for those who have fallen on hard times: The middleaged plant worker whose factory closes; the middleaged worker who gets fired but can't find another job; the young worker who has no marketable skills and lives in an area with few jobs and lots of people competing for skill-less jobs.

I would not be surprised if the middleaged ones NEVER get out of their hole, but the younger ones probably can. I also think they WANT to. I think they can! That's what this society provides for all of us, opportunities for those who try hard enough. Some of us have marks against us in the beginning. For these, govt assistance temporarily helps while they get on their feet.

If people want a government to provide everything for them their entire lives without working....they will be disappointed in this capitalistic society. What they want is called socialism or communism. It does not exist here.

[bread_and_roses]

149. Have you actually read this thread?

There are not enough jobs. Educate everyone, invent time travel and make sure everyone has good parenting, good education, good adult role models. Invent a pill that makes every single person motivated, ready, willing, able, eager to work (not that most are not - I have worked with the poor all my adult life - most work harder than anyone else I know; and studies-not anecdote, like mine just now-show that most people on "welfare" have always worked when they can). And huge numbers will still be poor because there are not enough jobs. Corporations LOVE disposable labor - why do you think they move every job they possibly can to temporary agencies? Until we recognize that we will continue to blame the poor for a condition that is structured into the fabric of our system.

The system REQUIRES that whole lives be spent without working; we just rotate the life-time among different people so we can keep blaming individuals.

And none of that even begins to address the problems of overcoming growing up in conditions no or not much better than a war-torn third world country, which numbers of our inner-city young people experience.

[TexasSissy]

154. Did you actually read my post?

I didn't say there are enough jobs out there. I said there ARE, indeed, better jobs out there. There are. Not enough of them. But they exist.

If someone works at a convenience store for minimum wage, then learns, say, computer skills, there would be a better job out there at some point in time for that person, who, I said, would need assistance in the meantime. There aren't enough jobs out there. But better jobs exist for people who have increased their marketable-skill level.

No matter what the economy, if a person does not increase their skill level to get out a minimum wage job, then things won't improve much for that person. Even in the best of times, that person could look forward to more minimum wage jobs to apply for.

[bread_and_roses]

155. Rotating unemployment, rotating poverty...

...no question that AN individual can, given the right circumstances, improve their lot. But someone else will have to take their place in the unemployment/poverty line. If not right away (good economy) then at a probably not-to-distant future date (downturn economy). So what is solved, in the big picture? Nothing.

[Kanary]

103. You ask me the question, but before hearing any reply, you defend your

position.

Are you interested in what I perceive? Do you want to hear what I think?

Kanary

[ursacorwin]

135. i can't stand reading any more of this thread without saying

you said:
"Because I think that getting a better job would help get someone out of the projects? "

c'mon down to my 'hood sweetie. show me the "better jobs." oh, and don't tell me to go uptown where da white folks live...they don't hire us.

you said:
"Haven't you heard of the old saying, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." It's an old saying. I didn't make it up. But I do admit that I believe it. If you don't vote for the congress people who make the laws, or the President who issues executive orders, then you lose the right to complain about the laws that are passed and the executive orders that are issued."

have you seen f911? the very beginning, where black legislators are told to basically fuck off? why anyone black would care to vote after that scene is hard to imagine. try it sometime.

you said:
"As far as getting a better job...that is what we all strive for, isn't it? And a person DOES want to get out of the projects, doesn't s/he? (Except now we have Sec. 8 housing instead of just the projects, which was brought about by Democrats. This gives subsidies to poor people, which allows them to live in regular housing in regular neighborhoods, with assistance, depending on their income level. I didn't think projects, as such, existed anymore in America, actually. They are gone here and in Louisiana, replaced by Sec. 8.)

do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for good places up here? my friend waited 3yrs to get into the one and only family friendly decent building in her area...and she had no choice, she had a daughter and no daddy in the picture (despite court orders) and worked two jobs while going to school. she literally couldn't not be in that area. you have no idea how badly the poor want decent housing, there's just so little of it and the rest is nothing you want to raise children in, let alone want for yourself.

go read "nickel and dimed" or something. i could go on and on about how tough it really is to be poor in the country, but i don't want to seem to complain. you see, being poor has taught me a couple of truths that i don't think being middle class can teach. besides compassion, there is revolutionary consciousness; ignorant stereotypes about the poor only bring that to the fore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Now you see truly what we are against

many of the poorest in this country have been marginalized and
they do not think they have any stake in the system.. they are the
lowest caste, you read correctly, CASTE not class and they "know it"

The messages have been internalized over the years and the messages are given early on, through multiple media and means

[Raven]

10. Clearly that was the case in the subsidized housing.

These buildings were fire traps...that certainly sends a message to people that they are not worth shit!

[Kanary]

35. And where are the DEMs with those issues???? They have abandoned

housing issues.

So many times, right here on DU, I and others have posted about the cuts to Section 8, and the upcoming cuts for next year. Hardly anyone responds, so it seems to me that what these people feel is what is reality, wouldn't you say?

I've asked, over and over, for people to write and call regarding these cuts, which are going through the pipeline right now, but there just isn't any interest.

Yet, people will get all upset about Whoopi, and write tons of email on her behalf.

So, again, I would say that the people you talked with SEE what is happening, and know they don't have advocates within the party. Just telling them they have to vote doesn't affect anything..... we, as a Party, and as NEIGHBORS, must become advocates, if we want them to feel included in the Party again.

It's up to us.

Kanary

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

41. Very good post, thanks

I think you have it about right. Very good post.

I think the Democrats really dont have much to offer these folks, and for them politics is about politicians who really dont give a damn about them or are willing to work for them...who pays the politicians bills? Not these folks.

[Kanary]

49. Thanks for hearing! Precious little of that anymore. ^_^

We DEMs need to learn from community organizers, who go into an area, LISTEN to the people, find out what their neds are, and then set about finding ways to MEET THOSE NEEDS.

What waaay too many DEMs want to do is to go shout at people for not voting, complain about their "ignorance" to others, and turn their backs.

Traditionally, what DEMs have done is more like the community organizers..... by listening first, and working with the different groups, find how best to meet the needs of labor, minorities, poor folk, women, etc. Because they were meeting needs, those groups then became solid DEMs. When the party turned their backs in the 80's, those groups started drifting away. Naturally. Why give your support to those who don't listen?

And, what the DEMs want to do in response is get angry because they no longer vote.

I mean, really, when was the last time that somebody getting angry with you caused you to "repent" and do what they wanted?

It just doesn't work.

Becoming their advocates is what WORKS.

Kanary

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. I have to agree with you, Kanary

Ever since the Reagan revolution the mainstream Dems have forgotten about the people who SHOULD be one of their biggest constituencies.

FDR won the undying loyalty of the 1930s generation by setting up conditions where people could improve their lives.

I think what it will take for people on the edge to start voting will be politicians, even on the local level, who care about them and get things done, the way FDR did.

Hell, even talking about issues of poverty would be a start. But no one under the age of forty even remembers Democrats talking about poverty.

One of the most striking scenes in The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (about the attempted coup in Venezuela) was interviews of poor people in Caracas who said that Chavez had motivated them to vote for the first time in their lives.

[stevedeshazer]

95. You are absolutely right

My grandparents loved FDR so much that they would have done anything he asked. Why? Because he governed from the bottom up, not top down.

In the '20s and '30s a lot of folks had nothing, but programs like the WPA and CCC put them to work. Grandpa got work with the Bonneville Power Administration and Grandma was a janitor. They managed to buy a small house, which would never have been possible before, thanks in no small part to their labor unions.

FDR brought electricity to rural areas, which greatly benefitted my other set of grandparents, who were dairy farmers. Small farms flourished after that.

Modern politicians would be wise to take note, as Chavez has.

[Kanary]

100. I'm listening to Dennis right now, speaking to the Dalai Lama,

and he's saying the "professed intentions" of politics is not matching the "actions" of politics.

WHOA! How's that for being on target?!

IN other words, not only talking the talk, but......... (you know the rest......... hehehe)

Indeedy, TALKING is a start........ maybe it was Dennis' speech that even encouraged this much talk, because typically these threads sink like boulders.

Y'know, as I was walking down to leaflet for my candidate, I was thinking about this whole issue of poor folk voting, and expecting to be considered. I thought about other countries, and they DON'T have the same expectations...... the social democracies of the world think about and institute policies for poorer people BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, not just because THEY WANT/EXPECT REWARDS OF VOTES. Now, I ask you, aren't we, as a nation, capable of being that advanced as human beings? I mean, really.........isn't it a reflection of our own souls????

Now, what can WE do, right here at DU, to begin to make some progress on this issue, so that 3 months from now we're not wringing our hands, and saying the same things? REally, I want to see us strike out in SOME direction. I appreciate suggestions.

Thanks for mentioning the movie........ have not seen it, and now will look for it.

Kanary

[sangh0]

142. If you think Dems are absent on Section 8

you don't know what you're talking about. Congress just added millions more onto Section 8, in addition to their having previously DOUBLED the amount Bush* requested.

You don't think it Repukes who did that, do you?

[mandyky]

51. I know - I wish Dem politicians would address the poor people's

issue in this country.

[Kanary]

60. Thank you! It's like everything else..... we have to push them!

Would you please do me a favor....... would you please call 1-800-839-5276, ask for the congresscritters of your choice, and say exactly that to them?

And, if you would, please include the plea to restore Section 8, and avoid any future cuts.

Thanks..... I"d be very grateful.

Kanary

[mandyky]

77. Will do!

I think first thing in the morning I will call Ben Chandler's office and ask his staff to also monitor posts here at DU. Esp. ones like this. It is very distressing that politicians have no idea on what being poor is really like, especially when you are trapped or about a half step away from being homeless due to section 8 cuts.

Do you know anyone in the Black Caucus who would not mind a call from a Kentuckian? Sometimes I think the only real Dems we have in Congress are in the BC, with a few exceptions..

[Kanary]

96. Good questions, mandyky

Y'know, I really don't know about which congresscritters are the ones to target. When I was trying to get more info abut these cuts, I kept running into brick walls.

So, first I would suggest calling *your* congresscritters, as they *should* be representing you. If you get a good response at all, ask who they suggest you pressure, and if they have any more info about the issue.

If you strike out with them, then ......... go for the ones who are more responsive..... try Kennedy, etc., and ask that same question. That is what I've been trying to do. The more people you and I and anyone else can get to make these calls, the more it will be clear that this is an issue to be aware of.

NO CALL is wasted! Anytime you call about an issue, you are giving notice that this is important, and needs to be attended to. Some calls may be more productive than others, but NONE IS WASTED.

I would really like for you to keep in touch with me, and let me know what results you get, and I'll do the same with you.

I really appreciate this....... you really don't know how much this means, after having this issue ignored so many times.

Remember....... 1-800-839-5276! ^_^

Kanary

[DemBones DemBones]

52. You're right. Most of us, and I include myself, think

that other people are "like us" and have difficulty understanding how different life is for many. And we get suckered into paying too much attention to celebrity stories and not enough to the more important ones. Keep on yelling about it, Kanary, we need you!

[Kanary]

65. Ohhhhh, thank you! Your words are such a balm to my

deeply sorrowing soul!

Yes, I need to keep "yelling", because this is not only MY survival, but also that of several thousands of other people. Please, help me with this........ the isolation is VERY difficult!

Thanks so much....... your words have really helped me!

Kanary

[TeacherCreature]

88. Kerry himself or other well known politicians must go to these places

They can not leave this problem to the volunteers to solve. In the 60s Robert Kennedy would have been all over these neighborhoods. There are also middle class people who feel the same way.
Some one need to go and tell these people that we may not get everything, change may not happen to the extent that they want but it only takes a few minutes to vote and somethings will get better and we have a decent shot at some other things.
People are tired of politicians making promises they don't keep. They are sick of politicians taking their votes for granted. They need to hear from someone that can speak to them in a way that gains trust and doesn't bullshit them. I can think of lots of democrats who would suck at that job. I can think of a few who would be good at it. But I don't think the Kerry campaign will make this a priority.

[k in IA]

4. How disheartening. This is a group Peter Hart needs to do a focus

group on to figure out how to reach them and get them involved, if it is possible.

[Raven]

6. Absolutely!

We has so many households to cover today that we really could not sit down and talk to them and try to change their minds. Many were a stone's throw from town hall where the polls will be.

[NewHampshireDem]

7. That is why you will see me pounding the pavement this fall ...

I plan to spend my weekends going door to door for Kerry ... remember, all those polls that show a close race are only for people who say they are "likely to vote." That means each person you can convince to vote who would not have voted otherwise is very, very powerful!

[Raven]

14. There were two people today

who had never voted and were for Kerry. We had information for them on how to get registered and we will follow up. I felt great about that! But it's an uphill battle with many.

[Walt Starr]

8. Here's how you counter it

Tell them that research has demonstrated that only the people who are most conservative or liberal are fired up to vote. What this does is make only the most radically conservative or radically liberal voices are heard and the country swings from one extreme to another.

Tell them that the most down to earth, sensible folks in the country absolutely refuse to vote, making this a country of whacked out nonsensicle freaks because that's who ends up running this country.

Then tell them that if all of the down to earth sensible people bothered to vote, we would end up with a down to earth sensible government. Doing this takes one person at a time deciding they will vote. The down to earth sensible people who don't vote are the majority and would be the single biggest political powerhouse in human history, if they decided to vote.

[Raven]

13. Their answer would likely be

that all politicians are liars...I heard that over and over today.

[Walt Starr]

18. Counter to their counter

Yes, because common sense people refuse to vote! If common sense people voted and held the politicians to a level of truth, they could no longer get away with telling lies!

We get the government we deserve. If you choose to be apathetic, we get less than optimal government. And these creeps directly affect your life. If you choose not to vote, your taxes will go up because the guys who DID vote have decided who gets the job and they expect something in return. Since you choose not to vote, you obviously don't give a shit if they raise your taxes so they can lower the taxes of your neighbor who DOES vote. This is how the lying politicians think.

They want to keep their job, so they pander to the people who decide they get a job. If you're not voting, you're not one of the people holding them accountable so they won't do a thing for you. You have chosen not to matter.

In the end, you are their employer. If you choose not to do biannual revues of the job they do, they'll screw off and not get anything done. These politicians have a great job because they don't have to prove their value to their boss like you do day in and day out.

But then again, you ARE their boss. How long would your boss let you get away with their kind of slacker attitude? Because you are their boss letting them get away with their slacker attitude!

[never cry wolf]

61. Great response Walt!!.......n/t

[Walt Starr]

110. Thanks, I hope I've helped Raven for her next shot at canvassing

I've learned you have to show people how this stuff affects them personally to make it matter to them.

[sandnsea]

30. Oh, good, the voice of the common man

"Everybody says that about politicians. But there's more than that at stake this year. The next President will appoint Supreme Court justices and they're going to decide all the environmental laws, consumer rights laws, women's rights laws, civil rights laws, etc." You have to do a quick once-over and try to figure out what will appeal to the person. "We really NEED you to vote this year. The outcome will literally set the course of this country for decades to come." Get some catchy sayings, "Like Al Sharpton said, if Clarence Thomas had been on the Supreme Court in the 50's, Clarence Thomas never would have been where he is today." "The right for women to even have birth control is at risk because many fundamentalists don't like birth control because they think they cause spontaneous abortions." Something has to get through.

[NMDemDist2]

9. i get the same response when I walk the neighborhood

it never ceases to amaze me...

[Frances]

11. About 25 years ago I lived near a low income apartment complex

I went door to door asking people to come to a meeting to improve the park that was next to the apartments. Most of these people responded just the way your people did.

The city council did improve the park. But after the owner of the apartments died, his widow sold them, and the low income people had to move out.

I think that people at the bottom of society often believe that the safest thing for them to do is to become invisible.

[hunter]

24. That is exactly right.

I think that people at the bottom of society often believe that the safest thing for them to do is to become invisible.

And it's not just the bottom of society. People are trained that they can't accomplish anything, especially in politics, and that if they try to accomplish something it will turn out wrong.

[HereSince1628]

15. Well, the conservative personality defers to authority

at least according the psychological analysis of conservatism published last year. So before that 50% of folks who are planning on voting is assumed to be a dormant democratic vote there is some thinking to do...

As an anecdote...in my work place minimum wage jobs are the rule even among 40-75 year olds. Folks generally accept disenfranchisment. I have no idea if they prefer it, but they are so conditioned to be non-players that they don't see their position of helping the @#$@#$@s on the top tilt the playing surface against them as ironic.

My hunch is the republican base includes the rich AND the domesticated poor. Which leaves the aspiring classes to seek realization of their dreams via the democratic party. I hope the professional Dems don't disappoint them.

[mongo]

16. My 50yo employee who has NEVER voted just mailed off his

voter registration. He was really happy when I came back with a Kerry bumper sticker for him too.

It is strange. Most of these folks do feel like their vote does not matter. The only part of the lower classes that consistently vote is the fundamentalists.

[searchingforlight]

17. They would come out and vote for Jesse Ventura or an Arnold though

Because they think they know them and that those people know the common man.

These days it's not about value. It's about hype.

[trof]

19. OK, I'm fixing a stiff drink.

Damn, that's depressing, but not surprising.
My redneck cousins...
land rich, but cash poor, in south Alabama. They're grandparents and great-grandparents were what passes for (or used to) aristocracy down here.
There was the money for college for the now 30-something bunch, but NO takers. To them, I'm some kind of weird effete egghead because I use "big" words and went to college. The eccentric cousin.

"Politics is all a buncha bullshit."
If they do vote, they'll vote for W* because "he's a strong president". "Them damn liberals are ruining the country."
Could be a holdover from the civil rights days and what they heard from their parents. Except I knew their parents and they weren't racists. I just don't understand. Working at a sawmill or, better yet, the Weyerhauser (plywood/veneer) plant is their idea of what life is about. Make enough money to buy groceries, some beer, run the truck, go hunting and fishing on the week-ends.

I despair.

[Raven]

23. Don't despair...here is another example...

we talked to a couple today...they were probably in their mid 40's. They told me that they had voted for Bush in 2000 because they were devout, conservative Catholics and opposed to abortion. They said that they had realized since that the abortion issue should be out of politics and that their vote had been terribly wrong. They were foster parents and worked at the local food pantry. Good people who made a mistake and are going to correct it. That gave me some hope!

[trof]

32. Thanks, Raven. Having a drink anyway.

But...hey...it's that time of day.
;-)
Good for you and what you're doing.
"By the yard, it's hard. By the inch it's a cinch."
I start with our voter registration program next week.

[Raven]

39. Heh! I'm on my second scotch...

it makes the sunburn feel better! :-)

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

33. Whats wrong with that?

"Working at a sawmill or, better yet, the Weyerhauser (plywood/veneer) plant is their idea of what life is about. Make enough money to buy groceries, some beer, run the truck, go hunting and fishing on the week-ends.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Thats actually a prettty good life.

[Raven]

40. There is something wrong with people having to work three jobs

to afford those simple pleasures!

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

43. They know, and I know....

...that the Democrats are not going to anything about that.

Thats one reason folks don't vote...Dems might make big promises but they wont keep them, nor really are going to push the major economic reforms necessary to ensure living wages.

[Raven]

57. You have your history wrong...

completely wrong.

[TeacherCreature]

92. history has nothing to do with it

This is the way the party has operated since the 80s. No one gives a damn about poor people anymore and Kerry is not going to do a thing for them. He also will not be speaking to them or going to where they live. He is sending you instead and you are not going to convince enough people to make a huge difference.
What you are doing is great and the people you bring on board...well bless you for that. But Kerry himself need to think about how to turn this trend around.

[never cry wolf]

74. It's not like the Dems had control in a vacuum

Clinton had to deal with, for the most part, a republican congress, a vicious, vile and vengeful congress as well as a shadow RW establishment wanting nothing more than Clinton blood, all with a complicit media.

We Dems do what we can, and admittedly, not all are pure, but nearly EVERY social domestic program beneficial to the lower and middle classes originated from Dems!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

91. But people don't know that

and Clinton had more trouble than necessary with the Republican Congress because he was such a wuss in standing up to them. It was pretty clear to me that Gingrich and co. were bullies, plain and simple, and that the only thing that would stop them would be refusing to back down and whipping the Dems (who were a majority 1992-94 after all) into shape.

I don't accept the Republican Congress as an excuse for Clinton's inaction about poverty, because he had that Dem Congress for two years and squandered the opportunity by caving into the Republican minority every time they squealed.

[hippiegranny]

156. go beyond living wages for a moment

and talk about how the repubs have squandered and want to eliminate social security. even the most backwoods citizen wants to feel that he will get back from the system that which he put int it, no matter how small that amount may be. that is a long term effect of leaving the bush aristocracy at the helm. jobs and a higher minimum wage are good goals, but cannot be guaranteed.

[midwayer]

105. You hit the nail on the head (eom)

[Raven]

20. I talked to one WWII vet today...

when he answered the door he told me to go away, that he didn't want to talk to me about politics. I started down the stairs and asked over my shoulder if he planned to vote. He said that he always voted. I asked if he was leaning toward any particular candidate and with that, he let loose for about 15 minutes. He had served 2 years in the pacific, his brother had been wounded. He had great grandchildren and they were who he was worried about. He said that his biggest fear was China. He is truly troubled about the choices in this election, very thoughtful guy but I'll bet his only source of information if Fox and CNN. We are going to get back to him!

[Sugarbleus]

25. I don't live in a low income complex but we are on Section 8

It is about to be CUT. I have always voted. Don't be disheartened. Different parts of the country feel more or less connected to the process.

There are groups around the country who work very hard to mobilize the lowest on the fiscal totem pole. We get better success in that effort out here in Calif. especially with our large immigrant population.

I agree with one of two of the posters here in that the candidates rarely speak CLEARLY enough about what they will do to LIFT the beaten down UP in real terms. JOBS would be a good start. Not all people will have the aptitude for a Masters Degree.. we need jobs to give them so they can feel like have something to get up for and look forward to with wages that will support them and their families.

We NEED the middle class. They drive the economy. I support our candidates efforts to address their issues. I was, however, a wee bit disappointed that no candidate (except maybe Kucinich) ever went into the low income neighborhoods to excite them, to motivate them, to talk to their worries and issues.

Some people in this country simply won't get involved and that's all there is to it. Still, we must reach out more clearly, more diligently and keep our promises as democrats and liberals.

So many people are just fed up. I've been there myself--I vote nothing changes..I get pissed and say what's the use. I know better though and keep slugging along. I didn't come from poverty, I ended up here because of the economy (job outsourcing etc) and unfortunate circumstances...I am not a typical "poor person". I do have some college. I am passionate about what happens to all of us. I will fight for those who cannot fight for themselves.

So, don't give up trying folks. Again, urge the candidates and their staff to visit these folks in some real way to show them there is value in their vote and participation.
My worst fear, aside from losing this election and having millions of people living on the street, is a huge spike in crime. Desparation leads to resentment which leads to rage which leads to..........

Peace good folks. HOPE IS ON THE WAY

[Raven]

37. Funny thing...the Democratic Party does not do what I did today.

That is why my group, "Swing the Vote" was formed. I;m not sure why the Dems don't do this. It is a real education!

[Kanary]

53. And that's why you're doing exactly the *right* thing.

Because the Party *isn't* doing it.

I commend you!

Now, I will suggest two things....... first, if you can, work with community organizers, because they are trained in how to listen, and how to encourage action.

Second, remember that these are the people who have a real, solid reason for NOT TRUSTING politicians. They know that their votes are courted every so often, then they're forgotten again. So, visit them again, in between elections, when you aren't "selling" something. If they see that you and your group actually CARE, and want to understand what their issues are, and want to find ways to help out, that alone will make a huge difference.

Thank you again for your efforts! I appreciate what you're doing, and wish you well!

Bobbie

[Raven]

59. Good advice and exactly right!

I retired a year ago and now I feel a misson coming on!

[Kanary]

68. Bless you! That's a "mission" most have taken a pass on,

so I very much appreciate you!

Let's talk more....... this could be something really important for you to be doing!

Kanary

[Redneck Socialist]

117. Cheshire county Dems used to be very well organized

I would expect that after the September primary you will see a lot of work being done there.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. Been on a ten day trip in my travel van to NH ,

Vermont and Connecticut

I saw the most bumper stickers and signs for Kerry in New Hampshire.

and relatively NONE in the other states.

How can anyone be expectged to have "faith" in their democracy or their power when it has been leeched from them over the years affording them the least advantage of all?

Health care is crucial and they cannot afford it. Or they get the barest minimal.

Which candidate is promising them relief and some sense of hope when it comes to their own health?

Excuse me? Who? No one. Neither of the candidates is promising these people any rel9ief at all.

People figure that they are on their own and the hell with the politicians, who at this point are perceived as not giving a damn about them a nd their families and affording them any sort of relief.

They figure they will fend for themselves--along with their hunting rifles in their pick ups and politics be damned. It has not done a damn thing for them in the past ten or more years hence.

[trof]

36. I'm pretty sure Kerry has said

that every American deserves the same health care he gets as a senator. Haven't heard exactly how he plans to do/fund this, but I'm pretty sure he's moving in the right (woops, CORRECT) direction.

[LibDemAlways]

129. I believe he's indicated

that people will be able to buy into the system - which assumes an income sufficient to afford the premiums.

Good luck, though, getting any kind of a decent health care bill through a repuke congress.

I wish Kerry and the other convention speakers had talked about the importance of electing Dems to the House and Senate. With repukes in control, Kerry's agenda will be DOA.

[fudge stripe cookays]

28. Awful, isn't it?

I encountered this the other day when reprehensor and I were driving back from vacation.

Corsicana, Texas, middle of Bush country, where we need every undecided new voter we can get.

We stopped for a break at a Whataburger. I was wearing my Rosie the Riveter "Up Yours Bush!" shirt. The older lady at the counter said, "I like that shirt!" which was great to hear there. The younger lady said nothing.

We talked for a second, and I said "You ladies both registered to vote?"

The older lady nodded, and the younger one stated (like you said, almost proudly), "I don't DO voting."

I said, "What do you mean you don't DO voting?" I saw myself about 10 years ago. She said, "I just don't. I don't know enough about that stuff to know who to vote for, so I just don't."

I lit into her. "You NEED to vote. Find some news sources and USE them!!

This is the most important election of our lifetimes. These people are trying to take your rights as a woman away from you. Not only your choices about abortion, but being able to access birth control! They're getting our young men and women killed for NOTHING. I'll make it easy. There is no way that you should ever vote Republican if you're working at Whataburger. Republicans are rich, and they only care about their own. Do you want to have children? What kind of world do you want to leave for them? This is BAD! This is REALLY BAD!! Please register to vote!! PLEASE."

Not me at my most effective, agreed, but I was shaking when I left. She absolutely would not take an interest. And nothing I said made a difference.

[SharonAnn]

125. But you may have planted a seed for thought and she may think

about what you've said and actually vote. You never know.

And, BTW, once a person has stated their position so strongly it would be very unusual for them to admit to you that your comments changed their mind. It would be embarassing for them. However, they might go away and think about it.

I've had people come up to me and say (even years later) that something I had said back then opened their eyes a little bit and they started paying attention to things and realized that, by golly, what I had said was right.

So, you ever know.

[fudge stripe cookays]

133. I hope you're right!

I've been trying to console myself with that the last few days...and maybe the older lady (supervisor perhaps), can offer her some guidance as well.

=)
FSC

[Kanary]

130. I appreciate your frustration!

What particularly galls me is women not voting, or voting against their own interests, after what our foremothers went through to earn us the right to vote! It really gets me down.

However, think for a minute...... how many times have you changed your mind about something, or about doing something, when someone got angry with you, and confronted you?

I think what we need to do is to brainstorm what likely scenarious we might come across, and come up with some god ways to deal with them.

We still aren't going to be completely effective........ part of freedom is the freedom to turn our back on everything.... but, at least we need to not be helping people to become even more entrenched in their views.

Kanary

[fudge stripe cookays]

134. Thanks Kanary!

You are so right.

Seeing the Women's Suffrage exhibit at the Smithsonian the day after the pro-choice march turned me into a bawling, blithering idiot. And I still well up when I think of standing there, being more angry and inspired than I had the whole rest of my life.

Everyone carry around a comparison of the two issues/parties with them. That's what I wished I'd had at the time, so I could have showed her outright-- here's the issues. This is what you need to know. Decide. Here's a registration card. Take this and send it in!!

Anyone have a good source for a printable page like that?

FSC

[Kanary]

151. Now I'm not sure if you read the rest of my post..........

Remember, I also asked if you have ever changed your mind because someone expressed anger toward you?

I would venture to guess......... no.

Most of us don't make substantial changes when someone displays anger toward us.

What I said is that I understand your frustration, but we have to approach people in a different place, if we hope to effect change.

Simply put, they're not coming from the same place that we are.

Kanary

[fudge stripe cookays]

153. I read your post...

and I wasn't ANGRY at her, I was expressing frustration at how things are, and I think it was obvious. I was practically begging her to stand up for herself.

I was much more on my toes a few months ago when I was canvassing door to door for Dean. I had all the issues on pages that were created for me to share with anyone who asked questions about anything.

I've been a bit at a disadvantage lately. Kerry has only begun to really excite me since his speech Thursday night. I can do much more now that I'm getting his stance on real issues.

But you're right. They're NOT coming from the same place we are.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

29. Actually, they are correct.

Substantive economic issues are off the table, so why should people vote?

They've been promised to and screwed over time and time again, so they figure they have better things to do with their time then go out of their way to stand in line at some polling place .

[Kanary]

55. Thank you for understanding....... you don't know how much that means

to me!

You are right on target, and I wish you had a way to get others to hear.

Kanary

[RummyTheDummy]

34. Hard for me to feel bad for them

Since they choose not to participate in the process.

[skygazer]

38. How about the 2000 election?

That made an impression with a friend of mine - 44 years old and has never voted! He felt that his vote didn't count and that his voice would not be heard among so many others. I pointed out how close the election was, how if more of the people who hadn't voted had we might not be in this pickle (since it would have been harder to steal).

Another thing that causes people not to vote - they say they don't know the issues, that they're afraid they'll vote for the "wrong" person. I tell them to look at the local issues first, the ones that they can see affect them and their families. See how they tie into the statewide issues and how those tie into the national ones. It's hard to convince people but so neccessary.

As a woman, I get really annoyed to see how many women don't vote, after so much hard work and toil went into securing the vote.

[Raven]

44. There was one woman today

who made it a point to tell me that she never voted...she had about 8 kids running around and they told me that they WANTED to vote. Funny, the wisdon of babes!

[Cleita]

42. I had different results here on the West Coast.

Most of the Democrats we talked to are voting for Kerry. But, more importantly, there seems to be a trend of Repbulicans and Independents who voted for Bush in 2000 saying they absolutely won't vote for him. Some said they weren't sure they would vote for Kerry, but they definitely won't vote for Bush.

Sorry you are having those problems in New England, the birthplace of the USA no less. Is there any way you can appeal to their patriotism?

[Raven]

47. Alot of these homes had american flags outside...

and they didn't vote. I am floored by this disconnect!

[lostnfound]

62. "Their country" & "the government" completely separate in their minds? nt

[Tactical Progressive]

45. If you don't want to try to help yourself out,

why don't you at least vote to try to help other people out?"

Shame 'em. Pleading and cajoling doesn't appear to work. Appeals to patriotism have become as jingoistic as the phony patriotism that right-wingers throw around has made it. Obviously practical considerations don't sway them, so what is left?

[cally]

48. My first job out of college was to organize

low income neighborhoods to clean up the neighborhood to decrease the rats. I was a very idealistic and naive 22 year old. I entered an apartment building whose owner had abandoned it. The city was working it's slow way to resolving the problems. The trash pick up had ended months ago and yet the apartments were filled. The courtyard was filled with 3 feet of garbage...literally. I convinced about 10 people to help clean it up one Saturday. I then convinced many city workers to help. I arrived on Saturday and none of the residents were there. I went storming up to their apartments and they were shocked that we had followed through. They never expected that I would keep my promise of help. They also used barbeques inside and when I talked about how dangerous it was, they knew but they had no choice. It was the only way to keep warm. Eventually, I got about three people to come down. That started many. By the end of the day, most had come to help. The city workers eventually left all the shovels and supplies because the residents wanted to keep working all night. It was cleaned up by the next morning. The news reports made the city focus and the apartments became more livable.

What I learned is that most do not think the government is on their side. I knew I could get press and government to listen to me but most do not have that. This is the meaning of priviledge. It is not all about wealth and connections but more about the absolute certainty that your government will listen to you. I knew that and had that but most of Americans don't.

[Danger Duck]

54. Just a question...

Was there a diversity in the race of the people you canvassed? Or was it predominantly white, black, or other? Not that it matters, but * is actively telling African-Americans that the Democrats have taken them for granted, and encouraging a "no-vote" alternative(between the lines).

This was the sum total of his comments in Detroit recently, at the Urban League.

[cally]

58. A diversity

and much of the problem was strife between various ethnic groups

[Raven]

69. This was mostly white...

almost all white...1 mixed race family and one
black family.

[Raven]

63. You are just wonderful!

Just damn wonderful! You need to be cloned...what you gave is exactly what we need.

[Radical Activist]

75. was that with ACORN?

just curious. that sounds like something they would do.

[cally]

86. No

City of Boston. I saw my old boss on TV not long ago. He's still working on the rat problem.

[salin]

56. Suggestion...

get local democratic candidates to go out with you - local town council, local state house, etc. But before you go - make sure they are briefed on local services, on local issues, and can talk directly about what is or should be available. Have a communication system available - between canvassers and the candidates (cell phones, walkie talkies, etc.) - when canvassers run across individuals who might be talked into voting - get the candidate to go speak directly to these folks. Not just the sell about what they are going to do - but also to ask the citizen about their opinions - solicit their feedback. Then talk about how the policies at the top of the ticket would effect them - directly - in their lives. When talking about disenfranchised communities - you are talking about folks whose opinions, beliefs, problems/challenges are rarely solicited. Make an intentional effort to connect these folks to those running - and to have those running actually relate to these folks as a potential resource (in terms of learning how to connect - what policies to push - and how to appeal to a very valuable, yet untapped, reserve of potential voters.)

[Raven]

71. Damn! You are so right.

We sould have started this months ago...but I will ask the leaders about that.

[salin]

73. I hope that it works... if you need to do some convincing

(from the "they aren't going to vote, so we can't spend our precious time in this way" sentiment)... do a google search on Gavin Newsome's efforts with city employees and a boatload of volunteers in San Francisco. Man, I wish I were back in the Bay area - I would be a part of that effort in a minute. There is a huge effort to invest tons of door to door time in the poorest of areas - to hear constituents, and to make sure that citizens know what is available to them... the effort seems to be more than symbolic - and is probably the BEST way that I have seen in a long time to begin to create a sense of enfranchisment among those who feel disenfranchised. Perhaps a few articles about the effort in San Francisco might help convince some folks who normally invest their time in areas they perceive to be more likely in which to capture voters - to try this approach out.

If you are able to get folks to try anything like this out - please report back and let us know how it works! :hi:

[mandyky]

67. Neighborhoods like these would be an excellent place to send

AmeriCorps volunteers in groups of 20 or so to get local info out on further education, job training, and to just listen to peoples' needs and then relay that info to local politicians, then to state, then to federal to make changes. If we did stuff like this, under aDemocratic administration, we could probably expand the Party by a lot.

[welshTerrier2]

70. here's why many people don't vote

this is a repost from a post i made a few days ago ... to those who posted that the solution is some kind of fancy campaigning trick or some clever words to use when you encounter these non-voters, think again !!

millions of people don't vote ... many DU'ers have spoken of the need to reach these voters ... we are often amazed that people who have been given a right to cast a vote to make this country better or perhaps even vote their own selfish interests fail to participate in our great American democracy ... perhaps GrannyD offers a little insight into the reason why ...

this is not to argue that there is no difference between the parties ... of course there are huge differences ... the point being raised is whether democrats could, and should, do a better job staying in contact with the needs of citizens on the local level and increasing their visibility and service to their constituents ...

source: http://grannyd.com/speech20040729.htm

<snip>

There were many housing projects and low-income neighborhoods where the people had seen nobody dropping by to talk politics since the last election. The Democrats only come around, we were told, every few years to ask for their votes, but they weren't there to listen to their problems, help them craft political solutions. These people were of the opinion that, if the Democrats won or lost, their own lives wouldn't change much. That is stripped down politics. That is downright exploitive politics, when you come around begging for votes for your concerns, but you don't give a crouton in return. Oh yes, if your man or woman is elected, things will be better for everybody. But that is the top layer of the cake, and right now there is no cake under that frosting. We have to put it back by being involved all year long, every year, and in every neighborhood that needs political help. That is movement building--not just stumping for candidates.

You will go to your home tonight, or to your hotel room, and you will turn on all the lights and have a nice, hot shower, and watch television and not even think about the electrical power that makes it all happpen. If you follow the electrical wires far enough away you will find West Virginia and Kentucky communities that are being ravaged without mercy by big coal companies, protected by corrupt politicians. The coal companies cut off the top half of whole mountain ranges, dump the rubble in the once Eden-like valleys, and leave the mess to the people there. Every time it rains now, their homes flood. Giant pools of toxic sludge are everywhere, and when their dams break, toxins spill for miles. One recent spill in Inez, Kentucky, released more goo than the Exxon-Valdez, but this is probably the first you heard of it.

Now, if you are worried if West Virginia and Kentucky go to the Republicans, you might ask yourself first: where the hell have you been when they have so needed your help? Where have you been, as the residents of Cabrini Green in Chicago, or the slums of Ft. Myers or Miami or New Orleans or Los Angeles have needed your organizing help and your voice added to theirs?--for they love their children too and want decent lives. Do you think politics is just about raising money for candidates? Politics is about creatively serving the needs of your people, and the election is just the report card for how you are doing and how many people you have helped and how many people are following your leadership because you were there for them.

So don't let this new progressive alliance be another can of Betty Crocker icing for a cake that isn't there. Organize not just to win elections, but to deserve to win elections.

</snip>

[Sugarbleus]

80. EXCELLENT Article!! Fabulous. ON POINT.

So very well stated. It's funny; it occured to me just the other day how much attention I'm getting in my email and snailmail these days (more than usual)..and I suspect it is because I donated $MONEY$ to the Dems this year. Boy, money DOES talk. My contributions were small; giving each month but they seem to have made an impact.

YET....when I write to my reps they do not have an adequate reply for my request, comment, or complaint. It's amazing. This article is spot on.

In my community there is a lawsuit being filed against the board of Supervisors regarding mismanagment of funds and policy regarding affordable housing in this area. All of a sudden my congressman is sending me email saying he's holding a town hall meeting where he will discuss some of these issues. I'm going. The stuff he is suposed to talk about, as per his mailing, is FAR from what is actually needed. It's all show and no "CAKE".
AND...no one has come to my house or this neighborhood at all this year...not one.

[bpilgrim]

93. Granny D is the best

and right as usual :toast:

peace

[bread_and_roses]

111. AMEN! (n/t)

[Gregorian]

72. It's a sick country.

I'm not referring to a small canvas that you made, but an overall sentiment.
Part of the problem is that people see democracy as a top down government. We are told. And we listen, just like the commercials tell us to do. The drug war. You smoke a joint, and you lose your license, under that asshole Governor Wilson of California.
People don't realize they hold the power.
I was one of those nonvoters. I gave up. After all the government is HUGE, and powerful beyond imagination. Sort of. Not really. In fact, not at all. Except for their guns, we hold the power. But people don't see that. In fact, it's even worse- people don't realize how they have been affected by the government. They think that their lives are just their lives. But to a degree, they are living within a context that was created by their government. And by their inaction.
It sucks. I actually want out. But that is also a cop out.
I really think that most people only respond to crises. So, those who care, suffer.

[TeacherCreature]

97. Excellent post

I agree we do have the power, but we don't use it.

[never cry wolf]

76. Raven, this is very discouraging to me,

In my mind it speaks directly to two things:

1. The lack of quality education and...

2. The dumbing down of 'murika thru teevee and video games and...???

[Raven]

81. Ok, Ok, Its either the scotch or my age that has gotten t o me.

I am going to go to bed now because I am really hurting...my
old artheritic body is getting to me. But...we need to keep this going in every little city and town and berg in this country...we need to get up close and personal with every voter or non-voter. This is going to be an on-the-ground campaign and I think it's the only way to win. Administrators need to think about a site just for this. Mind my words...THIS IS AN ON-THE-GROUND CAMPAIGN for the soul of America... for its very soul. I am about convinced that we won't get another chance. Everyone has to hit the streets, not to protest but to get the vote out, every last vote. I worry about my child and my grandchildren. Lots of you guys have to worry about yourselves. If we don't take it back this time, I'm afraid that we will never be able to take it back. This is it. I think we need a site for activism...it is hard to do this stuff...we need good advice...which has been generously given tonight. We all need to stop preaching to the choir and go out there and change minds...I love you guys!:-)

[DancingBear]

94. For those outside of NH, some Troy info

Troy, NH is a poor town - a very poor town, and without being judgmental a poorly educated one. NH school monies are allocated in a very strange way, and for fear of boring folks to tears I'll just say that the richer communities get the lions share of the monies, and that the poorer towns sink further into debt (Note: there is an ongoing court case re: this issue, and Raven would be more up to date on it than I). This was literally the last straw with regard to many of NH's poorer communities.

It does not surprise me in the least that these folks have opted out of the political process. They worry about getting the car fixed, or hunting, or NASCAR, not because they don't dream of other things but because these are are the things they either have control over or that make them happy. Frankly, Raven, I am shocked that the number wasn't far greater than 50%, and that Kerry was even holding his own among probable voters. Politicians and what concerns them may as well be men on the moon. They are the living examples of who the right panders to, as they are looking not for someone to blame, but for someone to foist their righteous "same old promises, same old bullshit" anger on. They're easy pickings for Rush et al.

[mandyky]

98. And now the Libertarians are moving in

so it might get even worse at the state level...

[shraby]

106. A common perception of the

government is that after they get finished with their speeches on t.v. or in person, is they go home or with their friends, have a nice dinner and a few drinks and the people they are asking for votes from are immediately forgotten until the next stump speech.

They absolutely care about nothing besides getting re-elected and all the money they earn with the job. Not to mention the perks that go with it. Once in a while they'll put through some legislation to bring a nicety to their district like a new zoo or a highway, but for the majority of Americans the congressmen/women's pay just means higher taxes to support the laggards.

[KT2000]

99. I found the same thing

in previous elections. My vote doesn't count came up often and they do not want to discuss.
I found resentment and anger and some even laughed at me for my efforts. But not all.

We do not talk about class in this country but we should. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that alienation among many in the the lower income groups is complete. They believe they will only be "screwed again."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

107. Raven, were any of the people you talked to

willing to state what their issues of concern were?

[progressivebydesign]

112. It takes less time to vote than it does to eat at McDonalds...

.. People are just too damn lazy. They whine that it 'doesn't matter' if they vote. Really? Where did they get this learned opinion? They are lazy. Purely lazy. If they can get off their ass to grocery shop, wash their car, and drive to a post office, they can vote. If someone actually asked these people what they did with their free time, you'd find 90% of what they do had very little effect on their lives... I"m sick of people who seem to think we live in a dictatorship, and absolutely DON'T deserve the democracy they're in. It's not a fucking spectator sport! This tired lament that voting doesn't make a difference is just parroting lazy ass thinking they've heard on t.v.

edited for really bad typing..

[the_outsider]

115. not just laziness and indifference

a lot of people truly believe that they are not represented by either of the two parties who have realistic chances of winning. For them not voting is a statement which democratic party will do well to listen to instead of just getting mad at them.

[bread_and_roses]

118. NOT lazy

How many people actually know how government works? I talk to educated, "middle-class" people all the time who have only a vague understanding of the difference between Federal, State, and local government.

And just what in our culture reinforces the notion that organized pressure - which is what political gain for any group is based on - is an effective means of changing anything? Nothing. If you are lucky, a class in eighth or tenth grade "explained" how democracy works.

Unions and organized pressure groups for social justice/environment/arts and other causes are demonetized and ridiculed constantly in the mainstream press.

As a poster above noted, there is a total disconnect for many people between "my country" and "the government." And the right wing and their lackeys in the media have, since Reagan, mocked the idea that government is is an effective way to address, remedy, or ameliorate any problem.

Add to that the virtual abandonment of economic justice issues in the rhetoric and often voting record of the Democratic party ( even if some individual Democrats work and vote for such issues) and we expect the poor and near-poor to look to the political system for improvement in their prospects?

And we expect people exhausting themselves just to somehow eat from day to day to have the energy to counter this enormous cultural weight? I don't think so.

[alfredo]

119. In my canvassing, in middle class neighborhoods, the response

has been pretty good. The problem is voter turnout. Still, those who vote seem to be mostly in the Kerry camp.

Today I talked to a bagger at a local Krogers. He's in the Guard, and is leaning toward Kerry. He said that most of his fellow soldiers are voting Kerry. I let him know I am a vet, and that is one reason I back Kerry.

He went on and said that bush has made a mess in Iraq. He said he liked the idea of adding troops and special forces.

[BiggJawn]

120. They think they spare themselves having to serve Jury Duty...

Since the juror pools are pulled from voter records, if you don't vote, you don't have to go down-town and show up for Jury Duty. Silly, but true.

I have been registered to vote for almost 30 years. I have been called TWICE for Jury duty, once to the Grand Jury, where I was excused because of the work i did, and another time, I had the HORRIBLE inconvenience of calling the recording every evening for 5 days to hear if my pool number was up the next morning. It wasn't.

[Davis_X_Machina]

124. Most states use three or more lists...

Not just voter registration, but auto as well, to call jurors.

[BiggJawn]

132. Just voter records in Indiana.

Too much trouble to buy modern software to sort the under-18's from the BMV files...

[Tight_rope]

121. This breaks my heart!...

How can people just continue to life for granted? Don't know that Under the current administration that they don't have a life. I am so dissappointed by these American's....Do they deserve to be called American's.:shrug:

[Bozita]

127. Your post could be a cut from "What's the Matter with Kansas?" by ...

... Thomas Frank.

Sounds like a whole lot of Kansas in NH.

[goclark]

128. I would compare it to us not watching CNN

How many of us are so discouraged by watching CNN that we just give up. We'll say that we absolutely refuse to look at it.

We are so turned off by the way that they treat us - we have dropped out of the process of digesting their newss.

[Kanary]

131. *VERY* good comparison!

There's only so much we can take. Or, indeed, *should*, take.

If we relate it to our own limits, then we walk for at least a few seconds in their moccasins.

Thank you for this bit of reality check.

Kanary

[MadHound]

137. This is the result of forty plus years

Of our government becoming hostage to the two party/same corporate system of government. This has become even more manifest over the past twenty five years. I mean, after all, what true Democrat would have come down on the side of welfare "reform"? Or the draconian, racist War on Drugs?

And with the lack of a true opposition in the past twelve years, many if not most potential voters have simply given up. They see both parties pandering to the wealthy and corporate America, while the common working man is not even thrown a bone anymore, but is instead, expected to shoulder an ever larger tax burden.

It isn't that these people are apathetic, the vast numbers of non-voters who worked, supported and voted for Nader in the '00 election is proof of that. It is that they simply don't see anything to vote FOR! And quite frankly, these people are correct. As the 'Pugs have gone to the reactionary conservative end of the spectrum, the Dems have followed them, to the point that most of the major Dem leaders would have been considered moderate 'Pugs forty years ago. So where does that leave the common man, the working stiff? Voting for the lesser of two evils, knowing that either way, you're going to be screwed. So the majority of people in this country throw up their hands in despair, and rightly call a pox down upon both the parties.

If the Dems want to energize these people, to bring them back to the polls, they must offer them something substansive to vote FOR, like UHC, or a living wage. But if all they are offering is to be the lesser evil, people are going to continue to stay home in droves. It is up to the party to change, and this change is imperative. Otherwise, the Dems will be unseated by a party like the Greens, who offer a positive change, not just more of the same ol' same ol'.

[redqueen]

140. That's exactly the same as what I hear in Dallas

Working class folks are pretty near pissing me off about now.

I want to shake them and ask ARE YOU CHENEYING STUPID?!

But that won't work.

I guess I need to go back and read the thread... see if anyone knows how to reach these ... people.

[mandyky]

143. We need to remember this and remind

candidates we hold sway with to think of these people when they are making decision. There are plenty of people with adequate power and money that "don't do politics" too, though.

I have a sister in California who with her hubby probably rake in at least a $100,000 a year, kids grown, and I asked her who she was voting for and she said I don't get into politics. Yikes - are we from the same tree?

[Zidane]

144. You are surpised about this?

As someone who makes 5.15/hr let me explain something to you.

Contrary to what some in this thread seem to think poor does not equal stupid or uneducated. Nor or those of his in lower economic bracket fools. Both partys work by and large for the corporations, and this seems to get worse every year. I don't know when the heavy infiltration of the democratic party started exactly. Maybe sometime in the 70s-80s. Regardless, this is where we are now.

Take a look at the democratic platform. Notice the big section on the middle class? Where is the big section on the lower class? Now don't BS me with some excuse because I won't be taken by it and neither will anyone else under middle class. The party likes to pretend we don't exist. Likewise it lacks any serious agenda or motivation to improve our condition.

And to the person who said "And I bet they complain the loudest". I would like to say something to you, but I won't. Though I'll tell you the first word starts with the letter F and the last word is you. It's attitudes like that comment that turn people off to voting. It's very easy for those who have a nice income to sit on their ass and make smart ass comments that suggest if we (the lower class) do something you you'll do something for us. Of course poor doesn't equal naive enough to seriously believe that. If party members actually cared about us they would help us REGARDLESS of if we voted for them or not. Don't help the party? Then don't bitch & we won't help you. Nice way to get people to vote for you. It would be like having a cure for a person who is suffering from cancer but only giving it to him if he hands you a million dollars. If you ACTUALLY gave a damn about that persons well being you would give it regardless of if you got the million dollars.

Instead it's a "oh you didn't do X for the party? then fuck you" attitude. And here I was thinking it was only the repukes who needed such motivation to do something.

I also see a great deal of hypocrisy. A recent example here is the lower class job bash thread that occurred a week or so ago. People who CLAIM to care about the poor sure had a damn good time slamming lower class jobs.

In any case I think I speak for many people in the lower class when I say this - when the party fucking delivers you'll see motivation to vote. Until that time the idea of voting for corporate whore number 2 isn't going to be very motivating for many.

[Raven]

145. I hear you but here's the thing...

how do you expect things to change if you don't vote or at least participate? The people I spoke to yesterday didn't say "I've looked at all the candidates and there is no one for me." They said, basically, "I don't know anything about the issues...I don't participate."

I apologize that I did not make that clearer in my post yesterday...these folks were so far out of the system that they had no opinion on any candidate and they could not name any issues that they were concerned about. I know that there have been some judgments thrown around on this thread, but the fact remains that we have to find a way to get people to understand the value of their vote. I have voted in every election since 1968 and I've lost many more than I've won. That will never stop me from voting.

[mandyky]

148. Raven, it wasn't your original post, as much as it was

some of the subsequent replies.
I understand how you feel, but I also understand the attitude of people who don't vote, especially the poorer ones.

I've been trying to compose a thread about poverty and how we can reach out and get people to vote, and link it to this thread. Please keep us updated on your efforts. It would be nice if the Party knew and then did something.

[bread_and_roses]

150. Right on! Well said.

Let the powers that be speak to the issues that matter to the people who are not voting - then you'll see them get out and vote. As others have pointed out, poor people are not stupid. I too have done door to door and voter registration in poor areas - I finally said I would not do it unless the party I was shilling for held some position that mattered to the people whose doors I was knocking on. Where are the demands for living wages? For an adequate safety net? For Universal Health Care? Hell, poor people would go out to vote if anyone even said they'd work to get THEIR kids the same sports and computer and even TEXTBOOKS that kids in richer districts have. Something that simple and just.

An organization I work with once made the vote difference for a local politician by turning out the housing projects. He went door-to-door with the organizations volunteers, asked people what they needed from him, promised to work for them. He won by a small margin. Among their needs was a streetlight. They never got it. Nor did they ever see him after the election. That's pretty typical, from what I hear. People aren't stupid because they are poor. They know the score. There is nothing in it for them.

[Raven]

157. I think you are right...

we have a permanent welfare class...the people in it change but the class remains. They know they will only be able to subsist and that both major parties will give them that and not much more. They don't expect any more. Their kids are growing up with the same expectations.

[Junkdrawer]

158. Well, I've walked in those shoes...

And when you're on the bottom rung of the ladder, there's a good chance that you owe people money - people that you would just as soon not find you.

And so, to take the time to register your exact name and address in order to vote doesn't come up as a high priority.

Now, in my case it was self-inflicted and, since I sobered up sixteen years ago, I haven't missed an election. But before then....