Okay, folks, This is REAL Important, and I am FREAKING OUT!!

[Eloriel]

Edited to add: Truly pathetic that people can't bother to read the material specified before commenting. This is NOT about the fear factor or crying wolf or anything else. This is WAY bigger than that. Since so few DUers could bother reading the 2nd thread's OP, I'm editing to add it to, and do your work for you. The rest of you are looking pretty damned silly in the meantime.

First, post #11 from this thread:

ABC News: Attacks from Al Quaeda imminent in NYC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=720164#720441

IndianaGreen (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-31-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message

11. ABC News: Big Apple Terror?


Big Apple Terror?
Sources: Al Qaeda Plotting to Attack New York City Corporations

N E W Y O R K, July 31, 2004 — ABC News has learned that federal and New York City officials have received credible intelligence that al Qaeda has been plotting to carry out suicide attacks on corporations based in the city.

Sources at several law enforcement agencies tell ABC News that an "overseas source" has provided the information about the threat to New York and that it is more significant than the usual "chatter" intercepted from likely terrorists that has prompted warnings in the past.

Officials from dozens of local and federal agencies met into the night Friday and again this morning.

Intelligence sources say al Qaeda plans to move non-Arab terrorists across the border with Mexico. Authorities already have in custody a woman of Pakistani-origin arrested after crossing into Texas. She carried a South African passport with several of the pages torn out, $7,000 in cash and an airplane ticket to New York.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/new_york_city_terror_threat_040731-1.html
=========================

Now read the OP in this thread:

What In The World Is Going On Along The Mexican Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2124884

ADDED ON EDIT, the subject post from the above thread, so maybe people will read it before shooting off their mouths AS IF they know what they're talking about:

loindelrio (95 posts) Sat Jul-31-04 04:31 PM
Original message
What In The World Is Going On Along The Mexican Border


LIHOP/MIHOP theories regarding 9/11 have never gained much credibility with me. My view has been that the administration placed too little emphasis on counterterrorism since it was one of the major concerns of the Clinton administration, thus facilitating the 9/11 attackers through bureaucratic incompetence.

However, when I hear the following during an interview on "Lou Dobbs Tonight" 1-1/2 months ago:

" . . agents are forced to sit eight to 10 hours a day in one spot in order not to move from that spot, even if aliens are crossing within yards of them . . . This comes straight from the top and nobody has signed an order to that effect, but those are the standing orders out there in the field, and if agents violate them, they are subject to discipline."

Then an article in a Tombstone, AZ paper that states:

". . . at least two documented accounts of Border Patrol agents encountering large groups of non-Spanish speaking males in the Chiricahua foothills and on trails along the high mountain areas . . . 71 suspected illegal aliens were apprehended; among them were 53 males of middle-eastern descent"

Then our 'terra' warning of this week for CA and NM.

Kinda gets you thinkin' about a LIHOP around the time of the election.

+++++
FBI Issues Terror Warning for Calif., N.M.
July 30, 2004

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-436683...
. . .

The FBI warned police in California and New Mexico that it received information about possible terrorist activity in their states. However, the warning wasn't specific about particular targets or a method of attack, a federal law enforcement official said Thursday.

. . .

+++++
Breaking Silence over a Possible Terror Threat
July 23, 2004

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=...

. . .

According to the Tombstone editor’s sources, on June 13, 2004, Border Patrol agents from the Wilcox, Ariz., patrol station encountered a large group of illegal border crossers in the Chiricaucha Mountain foothills, just east of what is known as The Sanders Ranch. Agents estimated that the group comprised about 100 people.

Border Patrol sources who were present at this mass apprehension state that they seized 71 illegal aliens, of whom 53 were males of Middle Eastern decent. The suspects did not speak Spanish and spoke only poor English, sources told the newspaper.

In fact, after a group of the detainees had been placed in a transport van, one Border Patrol agents on the scene who speaks Arabic and Farsi, the native language of Iran, clearly overheard the detainees speaking Arabic through an air vent in the transport vehicle.

Higher-ups in the Border Patrol allegedly ordered these agents involved not to say a thing to the news media.

. . .

-- more --

Edited again, to bold MORE so MAYBE some smart cookie (the kind DU used to have plenty of) will actually read the pertinent parts. Sheesh. Guess I should chalk it up to the Saturday night crowd.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

1. Oh dear God...

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[charlyvi]

At this point....

They have cried wolf for so long, politicized (or Asscroftized) these warnings so much that I have a hard time believing them.

[Eloriel]

You didn't read the 2nd thread, did you?

Why don't you go back and do that. And THEN get back to us.

[charlyvi]

17. Read it

Still say the same thing, as do many of the other posters on THIS thread.

[Eloriel]

26. Then you're missing the point.

Unfortunate, too.

[charlyvi]

30. I'm not missing the point

And neither are the other posters. Terror levelhas not been raised; ABC is extremely pro-Bush and John Ashcroft will say or do anything--ANYTHING--to make this President look effective on terror--even to releasing info to the media that is, to say it mildly, fear mongering bullshit.

[Eloriel]

35. Yeah, you are. Go read my post #33 where I spell it the hell out. n/t

[fishface]

2. On otherwords..

Kerry had his convention so it's time to distract everyone with another dose of fear from the Bushido's...

[jean]

3. thanks for gathering this all together - veryveryvery bad

[nostamj]

4. i'm glad i live in Brooklyn....

but, a new terror attack is only BAD for BUSH.

final, absolute evidence of their failure to make anyone on the planet safer...

[Tansy_Gold]

46. I live in AZ and I agree with Nostamj

I live approximately 30 miles west of Phoenix and 30 miles east of the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station, one of the largest (if not THE largest) nuclear power plants in the world. PVNGS sits out in the middle of nowhere, and frankly, it strikes me as one of the easiest nuclear weapons to get into. Maybe it's more secure than it used to be, but I'm not holding my breath.

On the 4th of July, Arizona Public Service Co. -- APS -- experienced a major fire and one of the major electrical transformer stations feeding the metro Phoenix area. IIRC, 6 of the 10 transformers were destroyed. A replacement is currently being trucked in from CA at about 5 mph, with truly Keystone Kops antics on the way.

A few weeks later, another fire in another substation took out more of the grid. This is not good for the high power consumption of a metro area of about 11 million people where the daytime temps exceed 105 F on a routine basis -- roughly the equivalent of Baghdad.

On top of that, Arizona is a battleground state that is leaning increasingly toward Kerry. We have a huge military presence in AZ, and they aren't happy with what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, if there were "middle-eastern types" infiltrating Arizona, I think we'd be hearing about it. Not all the border crossers are caught, needless to say, and if the BP caught 53, it's probably safe to say 153 or 553 got through. If there were that many "middle-easter types" coming through, bent on destruction, I think we'd know about it, because I think they'd have destroyed something. I think there'd be a whole lot more than a couple electric power stations taken out. And I think if someone were really bent on just scaring up some fear (pun intended), the whore press would be jumping on it.

And they aren't. They're providing logical explanations from APS about the fires, and there's nothing going on regarding high alerts around PVNGS.


I don't trust this report. I think it's hooey. I think it's total scare tactics, and I have a little trouble with the people who buy into it.

If there's a specific, credible threat, then give us concrete details so we can deal with it. If there's nothing specific, or if you (meaning, Tommy Ridgebot and the Fatherland Security Ministry) "can't reveal for national security reasons" the details, then shut the fuck up.

The booshies don't DARE stage another event because the Dems -- or at least us activists -- would do nothing but show what a miserable failure they've been. The best they can do is keep us afraid.

I refuse to be afraid. I REFUSE.

This threat is bullshit. The only way they can prove it isn't, is to let something happen. And they aren't going to have "who would have thought terrorists would. . . .?" as a convenient excuse this time.



Tansy Gold, fearless (except when it comes to spiders and snakes)

[Eloriel]

74. Okay, so don't be afraid.

Who here has said they're afraid of terrorists?

Put another way, what I AM afraid of is NOT the terror alert threat or the terrorists. It's the Bushes.

And re this remark:

If there were that many "middle-easter types" coming through, bent on destruction, I think we'd know about it, because I think they'd have destroyed something.

Well, you wouldn't exactly know about it if the coordinated event being planned were well into the future, now, would you?

[Kipepeo]

97. I disagree on one point

I agree with you that it's scare tactics...BUT I think they would LOVE to be on the *brink* of terrorist plots that they somehow *negated* OR EVEN if they let them happen...I think they would use it as some kind of twisted bullshit on why they should stay in power.

[Tansy_Gold]

131. The only way they could stay in illegitimate power

would be to declare martial law after some horrendous attack -- a nuke on Chicago or something roughly equivalent. (If they stay in quasi-legitimate power through election, that's another story, but I don't think that's the topic of this thread.)

9/11 didn't stop the functioning of the American machine. There was a rough spot for a day or so -- but even through most of the horror, people kept on living their lives. They went to work, to school, delivered babies, had sex, read comic books, ate at McDonalds, watched reruns on tv, whatever. Yes, it shocked and frightened us, but it didn't stop us. And even the boosh mantra was "keep shopping."

And the "fear" we've lived with since then hasn't ruptured the fabric either. We still go to work, go to school, watch crap on tv, have political campaigns, clip coupons, go on vacation, plan reunions, etc. Yes, yes, yes, there are families and individuals whose lives have changed dramatically as a result, and yes, yes, yes, many of us are far more aware of events and conditions in the world than we used to be, but there have been no fundamental changes.

In other words, so far the terrorists (whether al-Qaeda or booshistas) haven't won. They haven't destroyed the American way of life, they haven't even destroyed the American way of government.

Now, to my way of thinking, if the booshies really are hell-bent on becoming an imperial dynasty, they absolutely MUST destroy the American way of life. They must make us destroy it, by giving it up. They must make us so terrified, so cowed, so completely defeated in spirit that we aren't willing to stand up for what we believe in -- the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, driving on the right side of the road, Starbucks and Barnes & Noble and stock options and no-fault divorce and Barbie and Pictionary and reruns of M*A*S*H and Twilight Zone marathons and Fruit of the Loom and civil rights, human rights, etc. We have to be so demoralized that we would stand by and let our neighbors be taken off to concentration camps for no other reason than that they dissented against the government -- or they weren't the right color or religion or political party.

Are we at that point yet? I don't think so. Could we be? Yes, especially if we're made to be so desperately afraid that we will do anything to survive. Would another 9/11 do that? The deaths of 3000 innocents and the destruction of another major landmark MIGHT do it, but it might also just make us madder than we already are, regardless who or what we're mad at. Another such attack would prove the booshies aren't capable of making us safer. Another such attack would prove they are miserable failures.

Would it make us afraid enough to submit to martial law? Maybe -- but whose gonna impose that martial law? Too many of our military, reserves, and national guard are called up on duty already and aren't available for imposing martial law. This is a HUGE country, with an open border to the north and a porous one to the south. People do still have guns -- cripe, even MY household has one, though it's just an ancient shotgun and I don't think we've got any shells for it -- and people still have the means to fight back.

No, I think --- as always, just my humble opinion -- that if there is another attack, it will have to be horrendous, on a scale that reduces 9/11 to a pinprick. It will have to be something that reduces the American spirit to a whimpering mass of jelly. We don't have any defense against that, not if the U.S. military and intelligence and "homeland security" services don't/can't do their job. We have to trust that they can and do, or we can build little safe rooms and fall-out shelters or go live in a cave in the mountains. I'm no flag-waving chauvinist, not by a long shot, but I haven't given up yet and I'm not likely to. (There is also the chance that such an attack, i.e. the nuking of a major American city, could backfire, either getting completely out of hand or reducing the country to violent post-apocalyptic anarchy, which is not the goal of the booshistas, or at least I don't think it is.)

I didn't get a chance to watch all of Robert Byrd's presentation on C-SPAN yesterday, but I did catch a few moments. I can only paraphrase, but one of the things he said was that we have to be unafraid. He told the story of Nathan "I have but one life to give for my country" Hale as an example. What I'd say here, on this thread, is that each of us has but one life to LIVE for our country.

None of us were afraid on 9/11, and the planes still crashed into the buildings. Does anyone really think that merely by being afraid we can stop another similar attack, whether orchestrated by fanatic Islamist terrorist by by fanatic neo-con booshistas? FDR said it best, and it's still true: the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. And, if I may presume to improve upon his eloquence, we might also fear, or at least cast a cautious eye and ear toward, the fear-mongers.

As I said earlier, there are no credible details in any of these reports. I don't consider ANYTHING on CNN, not even multimillionaire Lou Dobbs, to be credible. So he interviews a guy. So what? The Arizona Republic (Phoenix) and the Arizona Daily Star (Tucson) and the local news tv stations haven't broadcast any news of major terrorist cells operating in the desert around Tombstone or Douglas or Safford or Ajo. (If teh booshistas want people to be afraid, they gotta get the warnings out there, and they ain't.) With our huge nuclear facility and a major military installation, we're prime targets for both terrorists and doomsayers. I haven't heard any increase in flights from Luke Air Force Base to the Goldwater gunnery range, and they fly right over my house. I haven't seen any increase in "security" traffic on I-10. If something's going down, it's going down and it's happening with the collusion of the booshistas and I don't think there's a whole helluva lot we can do about it. If it's going down and the booshies want it stopped, they don't appear to be doing anything, which suggests THIS IS ALL HYPE.

When there's a legitimate terror warning, just like a legitimate tornado warning, PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO THINGS IN RESPONSE. I don't see any response. That makes me think there's no threat.

Call me foolish if you wish, but as far as I know, this is the only life I've got, and I'm damn well going to live it, not cower under the bed through it.

Tansy Gold

[spotbird]

149. Don't be so sure.

People still rate him high on his handling of 9/11. Fear may very well keep the public in line.

It's not as if voters think.

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. The 'terror attack'...

...will be 'thwarted' by information extracted by torture and arrests made possible by part of the Patriot Act, thus justifying Abu Ghraib and the shredding of the Constitution in one fell swoop.

[physioex]

9. Exactly what I say.....

[walldude]

40. I second it...

[G_j]

18. the most likely explanation I can think of

just add the complete clampdown on NYC demonstrations.

[bullimiami]

6. unnamed sources again?

law enforcement agencies?
chatter?
officials?


Really.

[physioex]

7. Your link doesn't work...I have the new one..

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/new_york_city_terror_threat_040731-1.html

Look I have been reading these stories since 9/11, I just go about my business and not worry about these things. Really we are powerless to do anything and there is no point in gettin paralyzed.

[DaveSZ]

10. This is the whole fear thing

It's like in 1984 when The Party had to make everyone believe that they were constantly under attack.

That's exactly what Bushco does, and ABC is a mouthpiece for them.

[physioex]

16. Right, I agree...EOM

[Mojambo]

8. A transparent attempt

to prepare NY city for essential martial law during the Republican National Convention.

This should get the protesters off the streets.

[Junkdrawer]

11. The most frightening thing for me is the way they keep...

emphasizing that, although Dubya may be WAY behind in the polls, he stays ahead in the category of "Who would you trust to defend the country".

We're going to get hit before the election, and it will be a smokescreen for the theft of the election. Bank on it.

[unblock]

12. well, i work in midtown, and monday, i will be reporting for duty!

if there is another attack in manhattan, midtown would be the logical choice, unless the attack is on the bridges and tunnels. if the attack is against 'corporations', then that would mean midtown. there might be some symbolism in attacking the stock exchanges, but that wouldn't really be as disruptive as you might think. midtown.

and yet, i'll go to work as usual. i refuse to be ruled by fear, though i'll admit this bravery is easy when i'm not convinced there's any substance behind the fear.

[Mikimouse]

13. Could be the old Reagan/Bush ploy revisited...

"See, they're scared of us, so they have sent operatives to disrupt our convention and try to get rid of our president whom they fear. There was no need to go after the Democrats because they present no threat to them! Any bets?

[Eloriel]

14. People, if you haven't read the 2nd thread -- do THAT and then

come back and post a comment if you have one. If you don't read the opening post of the 2nd thread, you're missing what this is all about, dammit.

[Samantha]

22. I keep trying to read the second link

but get the message this page cannot be displayed. Maybe everyone is currently reading it.

[Eloriel]

28. Comes up for me just fine. Try again. OR I added it to my OP

Since no one was bothering to read it.

[Jackpine Radical]

27. I read both threads & have no idea what this all means.

Would you be so kind as to summarize the meat of all this & add your comments?

[Eloriel]

33. Go read the bolded parts of my OP -- maybe that will help you

figure out what I'm trying to point out here.

Or what the hell -- here:

1. There's (yawn) a new terrorist threat, just out tonight. It includes the info that Al Qaeda may be trying to get people into the U.S. via our Mexican border.

2. SOME of the people who have been detained are of Middle Eastern heritage.

3. Lou Dobbs had someone on some while ago who complained that border agents along the Mexico border are being actively and officially prohibited from apprehending people crossing the border into the U.S. illegally.

WHO IS TELLING BORDER AGENTS NOT TO APPREHEND THOSE CROSSING ILLEGALLY? AND WHY?

There was also mention of that strange case of the woman detained recently with several pages torn out of her South African passport, and her alleged connections with Al Qaeda. I took this report a few days ago with a huge grain of salt and an even bigger :wtf: -- but now I'm wondering how it really all fits together.

There, does that help? (And are these dots REALLY that inscrutable?? If so, I must be some sort of friggin' genius.)

[Dookus]

37. But who MADE the claim that border agents

were told not to apprehend people? From what I gathered, it was a typical right-wing racist group who wants to shut down the borders.

The fact is the crucial piece of information here has not been corroborated. Just because somebody SAYS something to Lou Dobbs doesn't mean it's true.

[never cry wolf]

49. You're talking another stand down order

This time instead of NORAD, the border guards have been told to stand down in order to allow the terra-ists in to do their thing in time to foment enough fear in the populace to vote for shrubbie or maybe even allow for marshall law.

[Beetwasher]

61. I Might Be Able To Confirm The Allegations About The Border Agents

I have a source, I will let you know...

[Eloriel]

76. Fabulous. Thank you so much!!! n/t

[Occulus]

112. Confirm it loudly if you can.

And get hold of the Lou Dobbs thing as well. If you can document both of them, it's a big story.

[homelandpunk]

87. It makes sense, but I would not freak out. This is wht we (and you) have

predicted. I have always believed my dire predictions...thus it is like seeing the movie after reading the book. When some of us say these criminals are not going to give up power, and will do anything to hold onto it, I for one accept that. It is unacceptable, but I accept it has to play out. And it will play out.
I did my freaking out 3 years ago when it became apparent what we had on our hands, and what it meant for the future. I have spent the last 3 years getting ready for civil war. I just accept that.
I think the dem convention helped us to do ONE THING: to kid ourselves that "help was on the way". I hate to be pessimistic with the good vibrations around here as of late, but I will say what I have said for the last 3 years: Cheney built a nice big fancy bunker...because he intends to use it.

[Eloriel]

90. Oy, oy, oy. That bunker.

WHAT an observation (and reminder). Of course. Aaargh. Gives me shivers.

The most realistic -- and best -- post on this thread. Thanks for that.

[malatesta1137]

116. why couldn't you just write:

BORDER AGENTS TOLD BY BUSH CRIME FAMILY NOT TO APPREHEND ALIENS CROSSING ILLEGALLY SO THEY CAN CONTINUE ON THEIR SUICIDE MISSIONS.

instead of creating this intricate OP no one has time to read? This is a message board, you know, not James Joyce's Ulysses.

[FormerOstrich]

130. Hello, Eloriel.....

long time...good to see you...I'm still around just not as vocal as I use to be....

I wanted to add to your list. I don't know if they fit, but I have compartmentalized them together.

Not very long ago there was a thread about bogus warnings of "domestic" terrorist attacks against the media during the DNC.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=716459

Then as Tansy already mentioned there were two fires affecting the power grid in Arizona. I posted information about that in LBN and it sank like a rock. Not one reply. It was so bazaar because they changed the story several times while I was trying to capture it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=697158

The FBI planning a new wave of general interviews of Muslims. Apparently, some focus in the Phoenix area.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56080-2004Jul16.html

Why interview them if we are going to release the known ones. Al-Marabh was on the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) list of "Most Wanted Terrorists".

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0630deported30.html

The Feds intentionally delaying wait times at Sky Harbor (moving workers around to different areas). This is another thread I posted to LBN that went without comment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=715568

[Eloriel]

138. Thanks very much

I appreciate the substantive additions to the "discussion" (something of a stretch to call this thread that, but still).

:hi: backatcha!

[kentuck]

15. I think we should go along with them and promote their fear agenda...

just before their convention. Oh my God! It is for real this time. They will probably attack the convention hall or hotels where they are staying. They want to get back at Bush. That is why they didn't attack the Democrats in Boston. They are after the Republicans! Oooo-ooo-oo! Be afraid. Be very afraid. Time to get out of NYC. Good luck Repubs. I hope they don't hit you too hard.

[Nashyra]

19. Won't happen this is a set up

This is so they can say that they thwarted the attacks like Clinton did at the turn of the century. It's all a set up, * can not afford another attack and the damn shame is that his LIHOP 911 attack will not get him a 2nd term, well maybe depending on the voting machines, he definetly will not legitetmately win an election.

[charlyvi]

23. Are you kidding?

I think you are. Bush* is the best thing that ever happened to Al Qaeda--he's been their dream president. Why would they want him out when he's such an effective recruitment tool.

[NashVegas]

144. I'm With You

If you have the choice of confronting the incompetent vs the possibly competent, the incompetents will do nicely.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Good answer!

[Pachamama]

25. What a great idea of counter-tactics, reverse-psychology...very good!

How would they respond to that response? What would they do? What message would they communicate then? Because the obvious message would be - its dangerous to be a Republican....its dangerous to hang out and be near Republicans....its dangerous and UNSAFE to have a Republican President.... :think:

[Sparkly]

34. The problem is that can easily lead to "Bin Laden wants Kerry to win"

and that in turn leads to "A vote for Kerry is a vote for Bin Laden," and "If Bush loses, the terrorists win," etc... You get the idea.

[Only Me]

20. If they knew about it Friday, Why didn't shrub fly in from the trail?

Shouldn't he be more involved in the situation, especially
since he got criticized so highly last time for being in Texas and Florida while important intelligence info was being looked into.

[Sparkly]

32. Good point

They criticize Kerry for missing some votes they engineered while he was campaigning, yet it's okay for the Chimp to campaign while these warnings are put out there, frightening people?

I'm not sure what to make of the warnings themselves. I'm angry they still haven't done enough about border security (or port security, or security of chem/nuke facilities) not to mention intelligence. And I'm angry at how many times they've given warnings without any information the public can USE, just to cover their asses.

I'm also suspicious, nervous, and wishing I had something to say to those in New York. (I work in DC during the school year, and we aren't much calmer in this area, frankly.)

[Only Me]

45. I used to live in Washington when I was a kid...

now about 300 miles away. One day one of these Terrorist alerts will be for real. But it makes me so angry to think how they have
played 'fear factor politics ' with the intelligence/terrorist warnings. It is really so cruel to keep people torn up like this. Especially knowing that anything can happen at anytime. Shrub and his weeds have had almost 3 years to get a plan on the security situation for this country and he can do nothing but try to cover his butt and make campaign slogans about how we are 'safer than ever before.' :grr:

[Sparkly]

53. I moved to DC from NYC!

People said I was "moving from the fire to the fire, never mind the frying pan" but that was pre-9/11. Little did I know I'd be dealing with things like anthrax scares.

I agree on the fear factor -- there's no reason to keep giving the public "warnings" we can't use in any way whatsoever. (Imagine getting in your car everyday and getting an unknown, unseen "psychic warning" meter telling you how great the risk was that you might get into a car accident that day, but the information on which road isn't specific...!)

By the way, I love your phrase "Shrub and his weeds."

[mellowinman]

21. Here is some advice about freaking out, in general:

Don't.

[seabeyond]

29. there is nothing you can do until something happens

yes it sounds like something may be up and to hit corps i could see and in ny, adn they did get that woman. and we have been presented non truth so often and ashcroft creates things. so it has been left to we can not trust an alert, but further, even with an alert, a legitimate alert, there is nothing you can do.

you just have to be, and knwo the odds of anything happening to you so small, adn not live in fear. i mean are you in new york, cause if not, then you are even more disassociated.

it is information. that is all it is right now. could be good info or bad info. and hasnt happened. so now, there is nothing to fear

[Eloriel]

36. Oh, please. This isn't about fear of another (yawn) terror alert

This is about the connections between the two threads -- and, well, go read my post #33.

[Junkdrawer]

31. So, will they take NYC to Code Red...

That would mean shutting the place down. As it is, I'll bet that every truck going over the major bridges will be checked for "middle eastern" drivers at the toll booths.

A couple of years ago, I was there on business and we were stuck in just such a three hour jam. My heart goes out to the NYC residents who have to drive into Manhattan.

[NightOwwl]

38. Remember what Bill Clinton said:

"Be not afraid."

Hey, look what has happened this weekend. Kerry is ahead in the polls in most states and just about tied in swing states. Kerry tore the "we are turning the corner" talking point to shreds. His comments got lots of coverage. Bush looks like shit this weekend. Even FOX has been reporting on the astounding number of people at Kerry's campaign stops. For the first time, CNN interviewd anti-Bush protesters at a Bush speech.

So what's the last resort? What is always the last resort? FEAR

We know BushCo will do anything to win. This isn't the first time they've used fear to manipulate us and it won't be the last. But you know what is really sad about all this? It could be true, but they lost my trust a long, long time ago.

[LunaC]

39. Y'all are missing Eloriel's point

It's NOT that another "imminent" terra attack warning was issued for the millionth time (insert collective yawn here) it's that our Border's are porous and those in charge of protecting it are essentially being told to "Stand down". If I'm not mistaken, THAT's her concern here!

[Dookus]

42. But who MADE the claim

that border agents are being told to stand down? Is it credible? Is there confirmation?

The person making the claim is from the National Border Patrol Council. They have the shittiest website I've ever seen.

http://www.nbpc.net

They seem to be an anti-immigrant group, from what I can see, that wants to seal the borders to all evil "meskins". Of course they're going to claim that the border patrol is insufficient. But that doesn't make their claim true.

However, you all can "freak out" to your heart's content over rumors and innuendo. I'll try to stay calm.

[never cry wolf]

57. They are the union for the border patrol guards

"The National Border Patrol Council is the labor organization representing all (currently about 9,000) non-supervisory U.S. Border Patrol employees. It is affiliated with the American Federation of Government Employees and the AFL-CIO, and has 15 constituent Locals. More than 5,400 employees voluntarily pay membership dues.

Founded in 1965, the National Border Patrol Council aggressively and effectively represents employees through negotiations, litigation and legislative action provided by a nationwide network of several hundred well-trained and dedicated volunteer activists and a small staff of extremely capable professionals."

http://www.nbpc.net/directory/directory.htm

Check out some of their news: http://www.nbpc.net/hls/index.htm

Their president, the guy who was on Lou Dobbs has also testified to congress, google his name.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22T.J.+BONNER%22&btnG=Google+Search

Seems like a legit enough source to me.

[Eloriel]

67. Thank you. They've also got a link to "Bushwatch" of the AFLCIO

And it ain't exactly pro-Bush:

From his first days in office, President George W. Bush has assailed the interests of workers and their families. The result is a long and sobering record of Bush administration attacks on workers’ jobs, health, safety, civil rights and more.

Since 2001, the AFL-CIO BushWatch has tracked the anti-worker actions supported, proposed and taken by the Bush administration.

Select from the following options to get the Bush record.


-------------------------

Sometimes the Skeptics among us can get a little carried away with themselves.

[janx]

81. Hang on a second. Wouldn't our border patrol be part of

fed or state government? This outfit doesn't look that way to me. Also, "activists" could mean anti-immigration vigilantes.

A note of caution might be in order. We might want to confirm that this is in fact the real border patrol. Otherwise, it might be some militia types who got agitated upon hearing (either fact or rumor) about "middle eastern types" crossing the Mexican border.

Edit: The website looks legit, as far as the union representing the non-supervisory border patrol members goes.

Are the feds replacing them?

[LunaC]

64. Silly me!

Nobody told me the Rule that a "shitty" website couldn't be credible.

[Strelnikov_]

47. The Current Administration Seems To Be More Interested In . .

issuing well-timed 'terra' alerts than actually taking any substantive action that doesn't include a high dollar contract for a politically connected company (ex. Accenture's 'Virtual Border' Project).

The Clinton administration worked effectively behind the scenes regarding counter-terrorism, and seemed to be relatively effective considering the resources available at the time.

Why a majority of the populace gives the administration of 'Bush the Lessor' high marks regarding homeland security is beyond me.

[Eloriel]

54. Now we're talking -- I don't know anything about this project

by Accenture. Got links, or can you get some? THIS strikes me as a valuable contribution to this discussion. Thanks.

[Dookus]

55. there can be NO

valuable contribution to this discussion until somebody explains why we should believe some nimrod from an anti-immigrant group regarding an alleged "stand down" order.

[never cry wolf]

59. Read my post #57 above

They are not an anti-immigrant group, they are a union for federal border guards.

[Strelnikov_]

60. Accenture Wins Huge Homeland Security Deal

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2001944881_accenture02.html

"The program will create a system to link about 20 government databases. It will collect information on when visitors enter the U.S., their movements in the country and when they leave."

[Eloriel]

72. Uh oh. Accenture = the former Arthur Andersen Accounting firm

There's trouble already, and they've barely started. BIG corproate book cookers. Hell, remember the Cheney advertising he did for them before he was a VP candidate saying basically the same thing (they cook our books and make us look good, tho not in those words, of course -- more coded)?

here's but one link:

Former Arthur Andersen division wins $10 billion contract to track foreigners in U.S.
by Madeline Zane, Unknown News
http://www.unknownnews.net/040604nameringsabell.html
June 3, 2004

The Department of Homeland Security awarded a huge border security contract to Accenture, LLP this week. Under the contract, Accenture will create and maintain a database of photographs and fingerprints of all foreign visitors to the U.S. The contract is estimated to be worth as much $10 billion over the next ten years.

That's reprehensible, of course, but it gets worse. Accenture was formerly known as Andersen Consulting, the consulting division of the accounting firm Arthur Andersen.

Andersen Consulting officially split off from Arthur Andersen in August 2000, and was not directly involved in producing Andersen's misleading financial statements for Enron, Sunbeam, Waste Management, and others. These statements were produced by the accounting division of the company.

However, Andersen Consulting sold those accounting clients hundreds of millions of dollars worth of overpriced "business services." These lucrative deals led the consulting division to put enormous pressure on the accounting side of the company to keep their clients happy at any cost ... even if it meant "cooking the books" to cover their clients' shady business practices.

-- more --

They're also involved in electronic voting. And Krugman reported this in his column the other day:
This year, Florida again hired a private company - Accenture, which recently got a homeland-security contract worth up to $10 billion - to prepare a felon list.

For Accenture involvement with electronic voting and related issues, here's a google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=Accenture%20%2belectronic%20voting


Including this, from In These Times:

Voting Machines Gone Wild!
http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=490_0_1_0_C

snip

More troubling, the backers of the act and the manufactures of e-voting machines are a rat’s nest of conflicts that includes Northrop-Grumman, Lockheed-Martin, Electronic Data Systems (EDS) and Accenture. Why are major defense contractors like Northrop-Grumman and Lockheed-Martin mucking about in the American electoral system? And who are Accenture and EDS?

Until January 1, 2001, Accenture was known as Andersen Consulting, a part of Arthur Andersen. Despite having offshore headquarters, Accenture is a member of the U.S. Coalition of Service Industries (USCSI), an industry association that promotes vastly extending the privatization and free trade in services via the WTO and GATT. It also is a member of U.S. Trade, the coalition that pushed for fast-track trade authority. In February 2001, Accenture and election.com, the leading global election software and services company, formed “an alliance to jointly deliver comprehensive election solutions to governments worldwide. … The companies will combine their strengths and experience in the development of election software and the use of technology to offer governments new efficiencies that aid election administration.” Election.com also has a contract with the Federal Voter Assistance program to provide online absentee balloting for the armed services. It is expected to be completely electronic, that is, have no paper trail against which to check results.

This is worrisome because Accenture already has been involved in scandals in the United States and Canada. In the late ’90s, the company was hired to overhaul Ontario’s welfare service for $50 million-$70 million. By 2002, the project was capped at $180 million, although the total reached $246 million. To meet its contractual agreement with Accenture, the Ontario government was forced to cut welfare payments to $355.71 per child in poverty and fire large numbers of social service workers. Election.com also had problems in Canada. The company contracted to provide online Internet voting for the National Democratic Party in 2003, but hackers paralyzed the central computer and disrupted voting. The security and accuracy of election.com’s voting software has since come under attack by Canadian voters who also challenged the ballotless software.

---------------------------

Yep, I'd say this is getting interesting.

Edited to add: this is one of their favorite MOs. Create a problem, or better yet a crisis, and then be the ones right there to offer "solutions." I'm wondering how the banking deregulations were sold that led to the S&L scandals under Bush I. In the meantime, there was the FL election fiasco in 2000, and of course 9-11. There've been others, but these are the ones that come to mind. Another is that it was rumored that some of the fires a year or so ago were suspicious in origin and may have been set by interested parties, just prior to Bush's visit and his rapacious "solution" of basically cutting down all the trees under the guise of good forest management.

[dumpster_baby]

68. del rio tx?

i grew up there!

[T Town Jake]

63. Perhaps, but that "point"...

...is being lost in the shrill & unwarranted blizzard of snarky replies to those whom have had the effrontery to wander into the thread and ask a few questions, or post a few opinions. Imagine that: people actually posting replies to a topic on an internet message board! The nerve!

[Eloriel]

69. You bet I'm feeling snarky about all the OFF TOPIC POSTS

people responding in kneejerk reaction because they didn't bother to READ THE DAMN MATERIAL.

People being snarky on an internet message board. Imagine that.

[Eloriel]

77. Thank you, LunaC

That's indeed my point.

[IrateCitizen]

41. Take a deep breath and relax (inside information)

I'm actually working right on the border as we speak, and I can tell you that USBP agents have no orders to "sit in place and let people pass". Rather, they often try to discourage people from crossing first, and if they do cross, the USBP has agents "in depth" behind the border at known travelling points.

Furthermore, the USBP has actually been catching people of ME descent crossing the border for some time now. Think about it -- if they cross from Mexico, they can blend in much more in appearance with Mexicans coming across.

This is the second such post I've seen today, and I just want to tell you all you need to take a deep breath. I'm here right now and seeing what's going on, and it's not quite what's being described.

[tlcandie]

51. Thanks for this inside info!!

I've never known the border patrol to just sit on it! :hi:

[Eloriel]

58. Okay, let me ask you this

Are you absolutely sure about the entire border, that there aren't any stand down orders anywhere along said border?

If so, where do you suppose the guy on Lou Dobbs got his information? Or what was his agenda? Have you ever heard of him before?

[LunaC]

65. Another concern to consider

"Corruption in Mexico and along the U.S./Mexican border is so pervasive that international drug
cartels operate with near-impunity in that environment. Are we so naive as to suspect that the
right amount of money could not purchase the entry of a few terrorists from time to time?"

Center for Immigration Studies
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/petertestimony021304.html

[Eloriel]

75. Ugh. that's disturbing, isn't it?

Thanks for that link.

[never cry wolf]

66. Apparently his agenda is as a labor union chief

He is all over the place on google complaining about budget cuts for border patrols, both regular google and google news.

http://news.google.com/news?q=%22T.J.+BONNER%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&scoring=d

[Tansy_Gold]

137. There also seems to be some disagreement WITHIN

the BP community as to what certain orders mean:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/07/07/news/top_stories/17_15_427_6_04.txt


<snip>

"Station management told them to stand down, to stop their operations," said Ron Zermeno, shop steward for the National Border Patrol Council at the Temecula station.

"We don't know which way to turn ---- for once, we were doing our job, what the government pays us to do," he said.

Border Patrol officials Tuesday denied that operations have been stopped or even slowed down, and attributed the difference of opinion to a misunderstanding.

<end snip>

<snip>

It's unfortunate that some agents at the Temecula station feel like they cannot do their job, said Gloria Chavez, spokeswoman for U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

"People may interpret this in different ways, but the fact remains that the mobile unit is still operational and conducting the activities they have been doing since the beginning of June," Chavez said.

<end snip>


Now, if it were true that the BP were standing down all along the border, don't you think those of us in border states would be seeing a huge increase in crossings? Don't you think that would make the news, or at least the local gossip?

[hang a left]

152. It is also a might long border. Perhaps there are only certain times

and in certains spots where they look the other way. Also for $1500 you can get a 'coyote'to bring you across.

[tlcandie]

43. My first reaction would be what, if anything are they doing at the

pretend Crawford, Texas ranch? It's not far from the border and would/could be easily targeted with all that land in the middle of nowhere.

What about the capitol cities of these states...are they doing anything different? Are their airports?

If they are same as usual there, then I would say just another hyped-up terra alert, IMO.

[harper]

44. Eloriel, I think you're right to be concerned

IMO its just a matter of time till we have suicide bombers right here in the US. It's a tactic that has worked very well for extremists in other parts of the world so why not here. All they have to do is to recruit folks who are willing to die for their cause and get them into the US.

I've spent a fair amount of time along the US/Mexican border over the years. I was born in Harlingen TX and go back every couple of years. I went birdwatching in southern Arizona two years ago, south of Tuscon. And if anyone thinks the border patrol can stop every terrorist from crossing into the US from Mexico, well they've never seen the miles and miles of deserted country along the US/Mexican border.

As far a LIHOP, I'm not sure I think the Bush's are behind this, although there is not much I'd put past them. Unfortunately, the current administration's bungling has created scores of folks who hate us enough to try to kill us without cooperation from the Chimp.

[tlcandie]

48. Yes, I know as well all those barren wastelands of borderland

that can not be patroled thoroughly. It's like a needle in a hay stack! Additionally, look at all the water surrounding our country! If someone wants in bad enough, they will get in period.

So, maybe the change and security check needs to have the root of all this changed. IOW, change how we treat others throughout the world and look at them as people instead of resources to be plundered, etc.

[harper]

50. exactly...eom

[Dover]

114. But that knowledge won't stop some big company from trying to seal the

borders, by first creating a crisis that requires their services.
Hey, call it a "jobs program" in the making...sponsored by corporations rather than the gov.

I know a guy who digs holes for a living. He sells the dirt from the holes and then charges the government a fee to fill it up with their dirt from road construction and other projects.

I'm sure some Security company (a subsidiary of some BIG corporation) would love nothing better than to get the contract for border "sealage". But first they have to whip up a crisis...

[Sabriel]

52. Do the Canadian border agents have the same instructions?

If not, that would be pretty damning evidence.

[Skip Intro]

56. My gut sez

there is a repuke plan to escape holding their convention in NYC, and that this latest "threat" warning is (tentative?) cover for the moron and his gang to cancel the NYC event "out of a deep concern for the wellbeing of the people of New York."

Why else NYC?

The fact that the regime has evidently placed a red carpet for the next wave of "evildoers" is frightening even to a cynic. I do wonder if indeed another attack has been plotted and has been placed into action.

I fear for our nation, and the threats from within.

I want these a**holes out of my government!

I want my country back!

[Stephanie]

70. Nah, they'll go through with the convention

And they'll keep the fear and tension very, very high the whole week. They'll use it to thwart the protestors. And they'll spend the week congratulating each other for being brave enough to come to New York. And nothing will happen. They aren't going to LIHOP while Republicans are in town.

[madfloridian]

62. Sounds like a legit source on Lou Dobbs.

http://www.nbpc.net/hls/index.htm

If he is concerned I would give credence to it. I agree that the two stories together are very likely to mean something.

If this is true, it sounds almost like "stand down", do nothing.
What would be the agenda of the guy on Lou Dobbs if not true concern?

The website seems to further express concerns.

[undergroundpanther]

73. repugs

All of a sudden,terraists from mexico bomb the repug convention.I mean the anger is there... Bush and his 'freinds barely escape ham ,of course bush,cheney,robertson and fallwell and asscrack are unhurt.All the 'repugs' that are not loyal to the empire and turncoat media are not in on the 'plan' So some die some are hurt all are scared into submission..People express mourning for the horror of what happened and go into a cognitive dissonence confustion. Bush looks innocent,"strong" in the face of this orchastrated tragedy... And NO one in public DARES question this may be a deliberate act of self destruction..Simply because it's unimaginable to most people how a bunch of greedy selfish republicans would hurt some of thier own bretheren ,when they look bad,are losing allies,Looks like the lesser ones of valueto the repug elite are'sacrificed to get the few ahead.

Think it's impossible?
Than you are not thinking as a repug elitist would think enough .
No skin but thier own has worth to them. They will destroy wealth or allies to get more power for themselves.
They don't care about anything but getting thiers .They get off on risk taking ,deception of others and mindgames.

[Tansy_Gold]

134. Oh, and don't forget, folks

Mexico has OIL.

And Mexico is just a hop, skip, and jump from Venezuela, where they also have OIL.

Think about it.

[midwayer]

71. well..maybe John Kerry's group had better start

researching / investigating if our physical borders are, in fact being managed properly and either expose or reassure the American people that EVERYTHING that should be being done is, in fact, being done.

Personally, I will not feel comfortable until I am positive our borders are being OVERLY protected...as WE ARE IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY and at WAR.

If we need more manpower...THEN JUST DO IT

[Boomer]

78. Get a grip

The overwhelming majority of Americans will die in traffic accidents or from a heart attack or from cancer or tripping on the stairs or from a multitude of other dangers they face every single goddamn day. I don't have a panic attack every time I drive to work on the local interstate, even though I've come close to being creamed by a semi at last once a month for the last four years.

Death happens. Life is filled with danger. "Freaking out" about a terrorist attack is as silly as getting hysterical every time you cross a busy street against the light. It's as useful as losing sleep over whether the Yellowstone Caldera will explode during your lifetime or how you'll survive a mile-wide meteor impact.

Sure, all of these events are possible, some may even be probable, but if you spend much time worrying about them you'll probably be run over by Mack truck because you weren't paying attention to a more immediate risk.

[Eloriel]

80. Get ag rip yourself

I'm not concerned about another terror attack -- my concerns are just a little different. If you'd bother reading the material and some of the other posts on the thread, maybe you'd have gotten that.

Or maybe not.

[Boomer]

88. I can't figure out what your concerns are...

...because you keep making these vague and defensive remarks about how we're not paying attention to THE VERY IMPORTANTN THINGS you've posted and if we'd just read it we'd see yada yada.

Well, I've read it all and I still can't see why you're "freaking out" -- which is your own description of your emotional state. Concerned, sure; wary, by all means. But I'm not going to lose sleep over something which I can't control. You seem really pissed off that so many people don't share your sense of immediate hair-raising alarm, but it takes a hell of lot more than you've posted to freak me out.

[midwayer]

93. I'll tell you what my concerns are

Not one American life deserves to be lost due to any more COMPLICITY.

If there is infact not enough manpower down there or at any place at any of our borders, this is COMPLICITY.

After 3 years of FIGHTING TERRORISM somewhere else and harping about PROTECTION of our borders Homeland Security etc. If we find out that we have a serious issue with penetrable borders, I for one, am going to be one PISSED off American.

When I hear that 53 mideastern men attempted to penetrate our border illegally and they "just happened to be caught" it sort of makes one wonder how easily it might just be to actually be succesful in doing so, then goes to the larger question of just how many are penetrating.

I think one has every right to be concerned and when I hear comments like "I'm not going to lose sleep over something which I can't control" This is exactly the type of lazy man's attitude that allows COMPLICITY to flourish.

The American people deserve the truth and this would be a great opportunity for the Kerry people to address this issue and either reassure the American people and his consituancy OR expose the problem.

Kerry's people should be all over this if it is a viable threat.

[Eloriel]

79. UTUSN has a thread that I imagine is aimed partially at this one

And here it is for those who may be interested:
TX Detainee NOT Terror-Linked, & as for the "Tombstone Tumbleweed"...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2127546

I would only point out that his thread, if it IS aimed in part at this one, doesn't address all the points in the original material, especially the report by the President of the National Border Patrol Council made on Lou Dobbs's show.

[homelandpunk]

82. And you really believe these are arabs and muslims? This is what we

have discussed would be happening....right on schedule, and there is going to be a lot of smokescreens between now and November. Please stay focused on the lies. So you understand the pertinent part I am going to write it in caps: THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP POWER. THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO TO REMAIN IN POWER. AL QAEDA IS A BOGEYMAN FOR THEM TO DESTROY AMERICA AS WE KNOW IT. IT IS A SETUP.

The only thing to fear is fear itself...and fear itself is in power. So we should fear...but don't be freaked out. When the elections are actually called off...what are you going to do? I say we all need to mentally get prepared for the worst.

[Eloriel]

89. "Freaking out" is not FEAR to me. I guess that's what has everyone

confused and telling me to relax, get a grip, etc. It's shock, alarm (QUITE different from fear), alertness, hypercuriosity, etc. Not fear.

And, as I've said about a dozen times now, I'm NOT afraid of a terrorist attack, I'm afraid of the Bushes and what stunt(s) they might pull.

Further, I really don't know how the two QUITE disparate threads of information -- one by a DUer who pulled together some information including an interview by a union guy at the National Border Patrol Council (afl-cio), and the other by a completely different poster in LBN who simply posted the new "terror alert" with IMO some related information -- could itself be a set up in your terms. I can see how the ABC story could be a "backstory" on a setup, but I sure don't see how the Border Patrol Union head fits in here. If anything, he seems more a Colleen Crowley? Rowland? figure (what is her name, the FBI agent in MN?).

Another DUer who didn't quite get it, or didn't read it. :shrug: Just not my night for promoting coherent discussion, I suppose. And it sure has gotten wearying by this point.

[Boomer]

94. Your interpretation is far from obvious

>>"Freaking out" is not FEAR to me.<<

The widespread connotation for that term is "hysterical panic". Freaking out is going nuts, running thru the streets screaming that roaches are crawling all over your body, that Charlie Manson just murdered your family, that hyenas ate your baby. So yes, your use of that term IS very confusing.

>> And, as I've said about a dozen times now, I'm NOT afraid of a terrorist attack, I'm afraid of the Bushes and what stunt(s) they might pull.<<

Yeah, and? That the Bushies may violently resist being thrown out of office is not exactly a news flash for anyone on this board. I fully expect anything from minor thuggery at the voting booths to an outright assassination attempt, the imposition of martial law, and/or storm troopers on the streets.

Actually, I'm more worried about what will happen AFTER Bush loses and is still ensconced in the White House as a lame duck. I think there's a good chance his brittle personality and massive insecurities will be unable to deal with the strain of mass rejection by the American Public.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep about any of this until something actually happens. This is not a discussion that requires screaming emphasis, and no amount of bold face or uppercase type is going to raise my alarm level any higher. Not because I don't understand what you're saying, but because your concerns aren't any scarier than the dangers my imagination has already conjured up over the past year.

[Eloriel]

98. Huh. Is that the dictionary definition?

Freaking out is going nuts, running thru the streets screaming that roaches are crawling all over your body, that Charlie Manson just murdered your family, that hyenas ate your baby.

You use the term your way, I'll use it mine. When there's a dictionary definition, we'll adjust our understandings of it as appropriate.

That the Bushies may violently resist being thrown out of office is not exactly a news flash for anyone on this board. I fully expect anything from minor thuggery at the voting booths to an outright assassination attempt, the imposition of martial law, and/or storm troopers on the streets.


And you're not the least bit interested in how it all might play out? Or advance clues that can be nudged and further researched? Obviously, I am.

[Boomer]

102. Interested, yes. Freaked out, no.

How old are you? Maybe this is generation gap thang, because "freaking out" is a phrase that arose from the 60s drug culture, originally meaning an extreme reaction to LSD or other hallucinagenic that literally made people crazy. Someone who freaked out on a drug would jump out a window to their death, thinking they could fly.

It spread from that meaning to a more general hysteria, an extremely strong emotion, a surreal experience. In lieu of a boring dictionary definition of "freaking out", I offer this fascinating account written by Jim Morrison:

"The first time I discovered death... me and my mother and father, and my grandmother and grandfather, were driving through the desert at dawn. A truckload of Indians had either hit another car or something- there were Indians scattered all over the highway, bleeding to death. I was just a kid, so I had to stay in the car while my father and grandfather went to check it out. I didn't see nothing- all I saw was funny red paint and people lying around, but I knew something was happening, because I could dig the vibrations of the people around me, and all of a sudden I realized that they didn't know what was happening any more than I did. That was the first time I tasted fear... and I do think, at that moment, the souls of those dead Indians- maybe one or two of them-were just running around, freaking out, and just landed in my soul, and I was like a sponge, ready to sit there and absorb it."

[Eloriel]

110. I've seen many, many uses of the term "freaking out" that are

not just negative extremes. That may or may not be the etymology of the term, but I've seen it used today to even indicate getting very excited in a quite positive sense or over a positive (tho unexpected) development or event. One of Dana Carvey's characters springs to mind, tho I'm not entirely sure that's an accurate memory.

And, I'm also not at all sure that all the "freaking out" that went on during the drug culture was totally negative either. But that's immaterial, IMO, because terms grow and change with the times. "Silly" originally meant something quite different than it does now -- it was once a compliment, equivalent to "nice."

[Tansy_Gold]

145. "freaking out" is one thing

"FREAKING OUT!!" is another.

I read all caps and two exclamation points as at the very least verging on hysteria.

I think I'll pass.

[janx]

96. Actually, Eloriel, at least there's some progress in that

CNN had the guy from the border patrol union stating the fact that the regulars had been asked to stand down--that is, at least some information about it came out.

[Beam Me Up]

107. 'Terrorist attack to trigger coup d'etat'

I started a thread oriented toward your concerns on Friday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2112530

Not that many people responded. Whenever I hear stories like the one's you've posted, Eloriel, I remember that when dealing with deep covert operations, IT IS ALWAYS NECESSARY TO DEVELOP THE COVER STORY. The 'cover stories' are news reports that may not be factually correct but never the less create in the mind a certain impression. You might think of it as "seeding" the future social reality you are about to create. If we had never heard of Osama bin Ladden and never been told that he is waging jihad against the US, who would have understood what happened on 9/11? As unbelievable as what happened on 9/11 was, we were given a 'plausible' (just barely, IMO) explanation; now signed sealed and delivered via a bipartisan report as the reigning explanation of what took place.

"Evidence, we don't need no stinking EVIDENCE!" It's all crystal clear to almost everyone precisely what happened that day. Anyone who even questions it is obviously just plain WEIRD and not worthy of consideration.

So.

What you are reporting is naturally a concern. What do we do if those who are in positions of authority are working with the terrorists? Isn't this precisely WHY President Gore called for their resignations, because this administration is a threat to our national security?

Unbelievable? Yes. About as unbelievable as a President of the United States being so caught off guard during 'the worst terrorist attack in our Nations's history' that he continued to DO NOTHING for 15 to 20 minuites. Just long enough to insure that NO EXECUTIVE ACTION COULD HAVE ALTERED the full chain of events. Of course, he didn't "know" what was going on, plausible denyability and all that.

From my original thread:

Whether it is going to be carried out is another matter. The statements of the Bush administration regarding the possibility of a red code alert must, nonetheless, be taken seriously.

'The coded terror alerts and "terror events" which have been announced by DHS are part of a disinformation campaign carried out by the CIA, the Pentagon, the State Department and Homeland Security.

]US intelligence is not only involved in creating phony terror warnings, it is also firmly behind the terror groups, providing them with covert support.

( See: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO301B.html )
Documented by official police sources, at least two of the DHS's high profile post 9/11 terror alerts were fabricated. (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO402A.html )

More:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO407B.html

Edit: fixed HTML and added a few thoughts.

[Eloriel]

111. Excellent post and thanks for the link to your thread

What you're talking about, seeding future planned events, isn't that called creating a "backstory"?

Anyway, I do remember seeing your thread, but either was short on time or didn't have anything immediately to add. But I definitely thought it was an important one, and I'm glad you posted it here.

[Beam Me Up]

117. Yes, "backstory", I'd forgotten that.

We are being 'set up,' psychologically.

MIHOP is real. 9/11 was not an accident. SOMEONE planned and executed it. The "backstories" have converged to give us bin Ladden. But, as I believe you know, there are very many unasked (much less answered) questions. They who speak to us via the media and give us our explanations for otherwise incredible events know Osama did it with the same certainty that they know Saddam has weapons of mass destruction -- which is to say, certainty based on the knowledge that Haliburton sold them to him.

I'll also say, if we are up against what I think we may be up against, Bush is expendable. It isn't about Bush. It's about the destruction of the Constitution. That is their goal, not getting him reelected. He has served his purpose, indeed, served it well. But now, it may be time for him to go.

[Generic Other]

83. Is it possible that they are trying NOT to apprehend every illegal

because it would overwhelm a system that has had really drastic budget cuts? Also, doing it means massive man hours sorting mostly harmless individuals who are needed up North to work in all the low-wage jobs. What's more important, fighting terrorism or preserving cheap labor at any cost? And that drug connection someone mentioned earlier.

Bush is from Texas himself where they have never feared exploitable Mexican labor coming over the border. It has been a way of life for so long down there, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling a sense of panic about it (except some white supremacists from California, maybe). I'm sure the same is true of all those states. I live in Washington state and Canada is a walk across a single lane road in many parts of the state. They are neighbors, and can't be fenced out easily.

I'm sure the Border Patrol is watching for Middle Eastern terrorists along the border. The problem is that brown skinned people have been invisible to them for so long in American society, that they have a hard time distinguishing between friend and foe.

Given all that, it still leaves us with credible evidence that something serious is spooking Tom Ridge and the Homelanders. I'd be afraid if I knew of what I should be afraid of.

So, when does the GOP convention end? 9/8? I am guessing. Will the threat level subsiude after that? I hope they chose an inauspicious number among the days they had to choose from. Wouldn't want Bush to be hitting any more Trifectas, now would we? I bet he's petrified just thinking about NYC. It's like a giant mousetrap. And he's the cheese.

The cheese stands alone. Hail Cheeser.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

85. Which part freaks you out the most, Eloriel ?

The illegal aliens coming over? The Border Guards not permitted to intervene? Al Qaeda moving across the border? It's all very disturbing.

[Eloriel]

92. I'm not really concerned about illegal aliens.

The U.S. has an official two-faced policy on illegal immigration. On the one hand, we say we're against it and have serious rules and harsh, heartless enforcement -- altho that enforcement is VERY selective on occasion.

On the other, our food supplies are much, much cheaper because our agribusiness and other businesses and big corporations use exploit Mexican and other Latin American illegal alien labor. I'm on the side of the exploited. ALWAYS.

But it would concern me greatly if there is a concerted effort to disallow enforcement of the borders in the way that's being charged by the head Border Patrol union guy. And what reason do I have to doubt him? Not much, frankly, esp. if he appeared on Lou Dobbs. I don't think he's likely to be a rightwing anti-immigration nut.

Are Middle Easterners crossing illegally via Mexico? If so, are they Al Qaeda? Not that many Middle Easterners are pro-America any more, are they? I'm certainly not anti-Muslim or anti-Arab, and against "profiling" to boot. So what does this mean, if it's true? ARE they Al Qaeda? Who or what is Al Qaeda anyway? I've never decided for myself for sure. Is Osama still a CIA asset? If not, why did we basically stop chasing him, letting him escape Afghanistan into Pakistan way back when? And as some others have pointed out here on DU, do we really have any proof that 9-11 WAS done by OBL and Al Qaeda? I don't recall seeing any, frankly.

I don't know what concerns me the most. I just want more answers. Or even more questions based on other info, such as the Accenture contract.

[janx]

101. The border patrol union guy's appearance and assertions

on CNN would bother me too. How often (and how late) does CNN rebroadcast Lou Dobbs?

It's after 11:00 here now, but I'd like to catch it, even if I have to stay up late.

[Eloriel]

105. I think the original post said it was from some months ago -- BUT

if you go to that post (wnd thread), there's a transcript. I didn't post the whole thing.

[Strelnikov_]

104. I Agree With John Sayles Feelings Regarding Immigration Policy

John Sayles
From "A People's Democratic Platform"
The Nation
July 15, 2004

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=1&s=forum

"The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world. "

[Rictexas]

86. The Mexican Border is a Joke

This should surprise no one. I've been railing about this for years. It was only a matter of time before the terrorists figured out this was the easiest way to get in the country. Just blend in with the hordes and and walk on in. We have absolutely no idea who comes across that border. It's completely insecure. Politicians on both sides look at people coming across the Mexican border as either cheap labor or votes. So, typically, no one does anything about it. Its going to take an attack from the border to finally wake them up to the reality.

Mexico is no help, that government is so corrupt and racist, they are too busy encouraging the indigenous Aztecs, that their economic system can't support, to go to the US. They're considered second class citizens anyway. I'll leave the economic impact of the flood of cheap labor on the already squeezed lower and middle class Americans out of this discussion. In addition, the corrupt Mexican Army has made numerous incursions across the border helping drug and human smugglers get across the border. The undermanned USBP, has its hands full trying to cover the border where it can. Its really scary living in the Southwest.

[Boomer]

99. Plus, y'all have all those poisonous snakes, too

>> Its really scary living in the Southwest. <<

The midwest isn't any picnic either, but that's because of all the tornadoes.

Yes, of course, there are dangers associated with the Mexican border, although I suspect you stand a much greater chance of being personally harmed by the drug-related activities than terrorist activities. Both are real and present dangers, but anytime people start talking about "scary" stuff I lose patience.

The fear is entirely self-inficted and arbitrary. The goddamn flu kills thousands of people every year, or is it tens of thousands, who can keep track? Heat stroke, insect bites, traffic accidents, falls in the bath tub, you name it and millions of people will be killed by it. But we're used to those dangers, they are familiar, and so we don't give them a second thought even though they are much more likely to end an American life than a terrorist bomb.

Israelis and Palestinians, not to mention Iraqis, are living day after day in conditions that would have the average American gibbering with terror -- and yet most of them just shrug and get on with life. So should we.

[Eloriel]

113. Well, there ya go

but anytime people start talking about "scary" stuff I lose patience.

That speaks for itself, doesn't it?

We all have our faults and foibles. But I'm not sure we have the right to dictate to others what they "should" or "should not" be concerned about or even fearful of. (Or interested in, or working on, etc., etc.) It's a pretty personal thing. Every human being has the right to have whatever emotions they have, and "shoulding" on them about it is not only pointless and counterproductive, but what's called a boundary violation (precisely because of the "right" we each have to whatever our own emotions are).

YMMV, of course.

[Boomer]

123. The pesonal is political

Phobias about spiders are one thing; fears that serve the shady political agenda of the ruling party are another.

It is to Bush's advantage to have a fearful public, even though the fear is not a particularly rational one. So allowing Ridge and Ashcroft to encourage those emotions goes beyond a "personal thing." And encouraging people to view the situation more rationally may well fall into a "should", but for god sakes someone has to promote an alternate view.

At one time we had leaders who sternly advised us NOT to fear, who reminded us that it was the fear itself which was an enemy. And we had an American public that was too proud to admit to fearing an enemy. I'm too young to count as part of the WWII generation, but enough of it rubbed off on me to be totally embarassed by media interviews asking people how afraid they are of terrorists. And it's never even "ARE you afraid?", rather it's always "HOW afraid are you?".

Language frames and molds our thoughts. Fear breeds more fear. Continual talk of fear, continual exploration of our "feelings", only inflames this volatile emotion. So, yes, I do lose patience with Americans who are fearful rather than resolute. And I have no problem with "shoulding" them about it.

[Eloriel]

135. Then I'd suggest your advice -- or concern --

would be better made in other threads. This thread (for what, the 99th time?) isn't about fear of terrorists.

[Ms. Clio]

118. "The indigenous Aztecs?"

What the hell does that mean?

[Tight_rope]

95. Ok...We have a "NEW AND IMPROVED THREAT"

It's getting to be like a new Charmin commercial. How soft and pretty do we need our toilet paper to be, before we realize that it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's only going down the toilet.

[Strelnikov_]

100. This Thread Underscores Another Of The Failings Of The Administration

That is, presenting a realistic program for homeland security to the American people.

While the threat of terrorism is real, the risk to any given individual is practically nil. However, don't we at least owe it to the families of the victims to be able to say we did 'our best'. As to defining what 'our best' entails is the difficulty. To try to totally secure the borders does not appear practical. On the other hand, completely opening the borders does not seem to be very prudent for crime-control reasons beyond terrorism.

Also, why is it a given that counter-terrorism has to be dealt with militarily. The Clinton administration seemed to be somewhat effective in dealing with terrorism as a criminal law-enforcement issue, with limited military intervention when needed, and at a much lower cost than what the 'war on terror' is costing us today.

My fear is that what the current administration is doing is the worst of all options regarding homeland security:

- Using the 'terror' alerts for political purposes
- Using homeland security money to award large contracts to politically connected corporations for security measures of questionable effectiveness (if Truman were alive today, would he call them 'terror-profiteers'?).
- Cutting funding to the 'cops on the beat' approach to enforcement.

It seems to me that by taking half measures and squandering resources the administration is accomplishing nothing with regard to homeland security. And if we are accomplishing nothing, then maybe we would be better off to spend nothing and put the money into health/safety programs (that would probably save more Americans than the current 'war on terror' anyway).

The fact that a majority of the people think that the administration is doing a 'good' job regarding homeland security underscores just how poorly informed we as a people have become.

[Boomer]

103. Bingo!

>> While the threat of terrorism is real, the risk to any given individual is practically nil. However, don't we at least owe it to the families of the victims to be able to say we did 'our best'.<<

Yup, I put Homeland Security on par with wanting frequent inspections of food production, rigorous medical testing of new drugs, high standards for aircraft maintenance, and keeping drunk drivers off the road. Laxity in ANY of these areas is going to result in death and injury, possibly of thousands of people. Government helps regulate these industries and lessen, but never eliminate, the obvious dangers.

But we should probably be more afraid of getting into an SUV than worrying about a terrorist attack. It's more likely that the SUV will rollover and kill me than that I will be near any terrorist target. Some unlucky sob will eventually draw that particular short straw, but by then lots more unlucky sobs will have slipped in the bathtub and broken their necks or fallen off ladders or set their house on fire when they fell asleep with a lit cigarette in their hand.

I nearly fell down laughing when I heard some woman in Idaho talking about how scared she is of terrorists when chances are someone in her family will be killed or mangled by farm machinery, if they haven't been already. Farm work is REALLY dangerous.

[Bluebear]

106. So well put.

[opihimoimoi]

108. So, where the Hell is Tom Ridge, the terror expert who gonna

protect our asses?? All that money we are spending and we get secrecy?

Sounds like a snow job once more...these guys are in way over their heads.

[janx]

109. Ridge is quitting because he doesn't make enough money

to send his kid to college.

He only makes $175,000 a year.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. Ridge is quitting because the NeoCons may be planning a surprise...

...replacement of Cheny as VP. Ridge was on the short-list of potential GOP VPs during the 2000 "election" campaign.

Just a thought.

[camero]

115. Heads up San Francisco

I remember Old Jeb joking about something happening to this area. Crossings from Mexico makes this the more likely target.

The media are also setting us up for the next attack and martial law.
LIHOP at the very least.

[Pallas180]

119. Rumsfeld PSYOPS - but Ridge

didn't quit for nothing - and it's not money. The guy has
a couple of million.

there's a disagreement there.

And dimson loved Ridge - so there's a mighty big disagreement.

Maybe about stand down orders.

It's a good possibility that an attack is on the way -
but it won't be San Francisco or Mexico.

They always go back to the places they tried to get in the first
place if they didnt succeed.

hey maybe they're looking at "the ranch"....

53 men.

They work in set of 5 right?

they like co-ordinated attacks right?

10 sets so far and some alternates

don't fly.

You've got to realize also, that even if there are traitors in the
WH, there are patriots everywhere....in the mi, ci, cops, guard -

and if they can stop it, they will

[Pallas180]

120. Use 1800 number for Congress-call up & ask why stand-down

and voice your fears about this administration.

Especially to the republicans

that ought to get their attention....and some demands from them
to the dimbulb in the wh.

[tedzbear]

121. Blah, blah, blah, blah...

The boy has cried wolf so many times now I can't get too excited about this.

I am more worried about 4 more years of * than what these news items might mean.

Yawn.

[Eloriel]

128. Uh, the point is, YOUR worry converges

(or may) with what these news items might mean.

[Rex]

122. I keep telling people that the election will never happen.

The BFEE is drunk with power - they haven't been held accountable for ONE DAM THING these past 4 years. This plan to have another terrorist attack to keep people fearful of non-Americans is working. I think 9/11 was the brainchild of Rove and I believe so too will be the next attack...conviently held around election time.

After reading the NORAD lied thread, I'm really wondering if 9/11 wasn't planned by our beloved Military Industrial Complex.

[Boomer]

124. So much money and power is at stake

that it's hard to envision the Bush Gang simply shrugging philosophically and turning over the keys to the White House. It's a good thing Kerry is a Vietnam vet, because he's probably going to need all his fighting smarts to simply survive this election, much less win it.

[Pallas180]

126. The Constitution of the United States is at stake

democracy or dictatorship

that's what's at stake in this election

[Pallas180]

127. kick it for America

:kick:

[Pallas180]

125. yeah, MIHOP is beginning to look very reasonable.

See Plame thread 14

and look for NORTHWOODS post.

Joint chiefs in the 60's planned attack on US to get Americans
to agree to go to war against Cuba.

Books written on it.

MIHOP 911 - not tin foil hat - begins to smell very factual

[LunaC]

142. Bingo

In his book "911 and the CIA" (in German), Andreas von Bulow - former German defense minister - lays out the evidence of the military-industrial complex carrying out the attacks

http://www.prisonplanet.com/jones_report.html

[Scorpious_Maximus]

129. Scare Tactics

Consider what we know:

The 9/11 report just came out, with sweeping reforms outlined. None of which have been implimented.

Bush is on the campaign trail, headed for NYC at the end of the month.

I am telling you, this is being done to ratchet up the fear factor so Bush can arrive and play hero.

Please. Go buy a copy of The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy and make yourself a cup of warm cocoa.



DON'T PANIC !!!

[oceanpoetry]

132. great thread!

I am freaked out too, Eloriel. I think we are very close to having our Presidential election cancelled altogether.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/072904_coup_detat_america.shtml
This article about "code red" and postponement of elections, recommended reading.

and a big kick for this thread!

[Selwynn]

136. See post #41

[Eloriel]

140. And see my post in response, whose question is so far unanswered

There's some conflicting info on the subject -- one from the head of the union for border patrol agents, whose name we know, and one from an anonymous internet user with no corroborating support as yet. That's not to disparage IrateCitizen, just to point out that there is an unanswered question on the matter, at least IN MY MIND. YMMV.

[Tansy_Gold]

139. Fearmongering Debunked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2127546


to summarize --

the woman detained is not a terrorist

the "Tombstone Tumbleweed" newspaper cited as a source is the organ of a rightwing border militia group. Not credible, in other words.

the story has been hyped by the usual fearmongering suspects.


so, maybe this time there really is nothing to see here and we ought to just move along, get on with our lives, stop jumping at shadows?

Nah, never happen.

[Eloriel]

141. That's only one piece of it, Tansy

It doesn't apply in any way to the report by the Border Patrol union head, nor even the AP story about the alert which includes Middle Easterners crossing into the US via Mexico.

But it's apparent YOU don't see anything here, which is perfectly fine.

[Beam Me Up]

143. When "backstories" are being created, the FACTS are mostly irrelevant.

Take Mohammed Atta, for example. Here we have the supposed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks which we've been given to regard as a fundamentalist Muslim terrorist who was willing to sacrifice his own life and those of his comrades because he "hates our freedoms." He trained at a flight school in Vinice FL, right?

Well, this is the image that has been set in the average citizen's mind. This is what we are supposed to believe and it is what most people do believe.

Meanwhile, just a little scratching of the surface of this story turns up some very interesting and peculiar things about Mr. Atta. Atta wasn't merely a "terrorist" he was an coke-snorting AGENT and drug runner with multiple identities, large amounts of cash, and a stripper girlfriend. All this and much more can be found in Daniel Hopsicker's "Welcome to Terrorland"
http://www.madcowprod.com

IN THIS INSTANCE whether these reports of "middle eastern" people being arrested at the Mexican border or the border patrol being 'stood down' -- whether any of this is TRUTHFUL or not is largely irrelevant. When deep covert operatives do their jobs correctly they weave MULTIPLE POSSIBLE SCENARIOS that can, as needed, be claimed later as "what happened." You see, what they are doing is seeding the notion that terrorists can enter this country ILLEGALLY -- that they even have to do this is nonsense.

Did Mohammad Atta and his buddies enter the us illegally? Nope.

Deep covert operations don't leave anything -- ANYTHING -- to chance. If there is going to be another event masquerading as a terrorist attack, the pieces are already in position. "Backstories" are generally built AFTER the primary pieces and players are already in place.

ONE FINAL NOTE: Everyone thinks this is about getting Bush re-elected. I disagree. The powers that are in play here don't give a damn about Mr. Bush. His usefulness is very limited. The real target is the Constitution itself -- that is, creating CONDITIONS which will make its destruction seem ACCEPTABLE to the majority of people.

You don't need tinfoil to see that this is precisely what has happened so far. They only have another couple steps to go. The American people 'need' to be made to believe that they are in A WAR and that they are BEING ATTACKED -- and that nothing short of EXTREME MEASURES can guarantee their safety. Once that switch is thrown, there will be no going back.

[Eloriel]

146. Good post

:kick:

[Pallas180]

147. Yup. BEAM. Yup

"ONE FINAL NOTE: Everyone thinks this is about getting Bush re-elected. I disagree. The powers that are in play here don't give a damn about Mr. Bush. His usefulness is very limited. The real target is the Constitution itself -- that is, creating CONDITIONS which will make its destruction seem ACCEPTABLE to the majority of people. "

"You don't need tinfoil to see that this is precisely what has happened so far. They only have another couple steps to go. The American people 'need' to be made to believe that they are in A WAR and that they are BEING ATTACKED -- and that nothing short of EXTREME MEASURES can guarantee their safety. Once that switch is thrown, there will be no going back. "

[Fleshdancer]

148. This thread needs another look after the Ridge announcement

:kick:

[midwayer]

150. Are the Mexican Authorities doing enough ?

I'm not sure any of us really know...do we?

Here a few things that Googled:

La Jornada
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.jornada.unam.mx/indexfla.php&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BJornada%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG

and an article from Jan 2004

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=4820§ionID=30

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.customscorruption.com/hole_in_security.html

Middle East link
In a new world order where terrorists are seemingly capable of the most horrifying acts, links between terrorists and Mexican smugglers are "certainly not beyond the realm of the possible," said one terrorism expert with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The expert, Thomas Sanderson, said that though such links are found in unstable regions of the world, they are less likely to develop along the more controlled Mexico-U.S. border.

Mexico's Interior Minister, Santiago Creel, said last month that Mexican security teams investigated about 60 cases of suspicious people or activities during the U.S. military intervention in Iraq. Some of those people were trying to cross into San Diego from Tijuana, which has been a popular crossing point for Middle Easterners for at least 15 years.

Until recently, Mexican authorities usually ignored the Middle Easterners, though some corrupt agents forced them to pay bribes to overlook their false documents.

But the 9/11 terrorist attacks prompted Mexican authorities to question the visitors more closely.

Last year, U.S. authorities started investigating a Tijuana restaurant owner of Lebanese descent after getting a tip that Mexican authorities had questioned him and two Lebanese immigrants at the Tijuana airport.

In March, Salim Boughader Mucharrafille pleaded guilty in San Diego federal court to running a smuggling ring that helped more than 100 immigrants, most of them Lebanese, cross the border.

Other smuggling rings have catered to Chaldeans, a Catholic minority in Iraq, who come to Tijuana to quietly seek asylum in the United States. Three years ago a group of about 130 Chaldeans were temporarily detained at a Tijuana hotel before being allowed to cross the border.

Crossing the border is harder today.

Over the past few months, at least five people of Iraqi descent have been sent to Mexico City for further questioning after being apprehended with false documents at the Tijuana airport and bus station. Some claimed to be Chaldeans, but Mexican authorities weren't taking any chances.

======================================================================

Effective Immigration Controls and Preventing Terrorism

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/rm/2001/5445.htm

[midwayer]

151. Mexico

Here is the Director of Western Hemisphere for the State Dept.

Roger Francisco Noriega
Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs
Term of Appointment: 07/29/2003 to present

This has not been updated since Oct 2001

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/rm/2001/5445.htm

MEXICO

Our cooperation with Mexico on border security has been a priority issue for many years. Even before the September 11 attacks, our efforts at working together on border security this year had intensified following the President's February trip to Mexico to meet with President Fox. Border security and safety are one of the pillars of the High Level Working Group on Migration, and both Secretary Powell and Attorney General Ashcroft have been closely engaged in the issue with their Mexican counterparts since April. Their efforts produced renewed vigor in bilateral cooperation at identifying and dismantling alien smuggling rings in Mexico, increased intelligence sharing at the border between U.S. and Mexican law enforcement agencies, and, by means of the Border Liaison Mechanisms, resulted in improved cooperation through increased personal contact by officials on both sides of the border. The Fox Administration has shown consistently a willingness to work with us in ways not imagined as possible just a couple of years ago. The Government of Mexico responded immediately to the September 11 terrorist attacks with concrete actions to tighten border security and to cooperate with U.S. law enforcement officials.

Some examples:

* Mexican authorities stopped two U.S. residents on September 12 entering at Mexicali with suspicious documents.
* Mexican immigration picked up 30 individuals in Tijuana and sent them to Mexico City for questioning.
* An additional four people were picked up September 17 in Durango for questioning.
* Mexican authorities worked closely with their U.S. Government counterparts inside Mexico to investigate evidentiary leads such as an ice pick on a plane from the U.S., a suspicious piece of luggage with Arabic tapes and documents, and reports of suspicious crop dusters near the U.S. border.
* The Government of Mexico offered full cooperation with FAA authorities to survey all international airports in Mexico.
* The Mexican Government instituted special visa issuance screening procedures for nationals of over 50 countries. No visas can be issued without advance approval from officials in Mexico City.

The cooperation from Mexican agencies has been active and outstanding. Every law enforcement, military and intelligence entity has worked tirelessly with us. There have been dozens of leads initiated by Mexican authorities. An embassy agency head described the level of cooperation as "extraordinary."

We had been working with Mexican authorities prior to September 11 to encourage them to review and tighten their policies on the transit of "third country" nationals through Mexico. The Mexicans have made progress in certain areas, particularly on their southern border, with stemming the flow of immigrants transiting Mexico to the U.S. While the overwhelming majority of those who attempt to enter the U.S. do so for economic reasons, we have insisted that Mexico do more in this area to ensure that potential malafide migrants do not take advantage of alien smuggling networks to enter the U.S.

As part of this effort, the Government of Mexico has been proactive in identifying and disrupting rings of alien smugglers on the U.S. border and throughout Mexico.