A kid I know wants to join the military because she can't find a job.

[Changenow]

She respects my opinion to a point, but seems committed to this choice. It is rational under the circumstances, provided she can remain safe. Her mother has bought the Air Force recruiters promises hook, line, and sinker. I'm grateful that they didn't sign at the first visit. They want me to go with them when she signs the contract. Since I'm the best they are gong to do I want to know just what to expect.

What I hope to do is help her to negotiate the best possible contract. She was very strong in language (French) in high school, but flunked out of college due to poor self-discipline. She is very bright at any rate, but her options are quite limited due to the college disaster.

The recruiter promised language training in California. It sounded very much like Private Benjamen.

What can be done to insure that what she is told by the recruiter is actually what happens? Would another branch be a better choice to keep her well?

[toddzilla]

1. tell her, would she like a job killing people?

because that's how it's looking.

[Changenow]

3. As I said, I'm not going to change her mind.

My interest here is pragmatic.

Truth be told we need a military, like it or not. We just don't need a preemptive war.

[Zinfandel]

51. No question every country needs a military, but we don't need the lies of

military recuiters...And we don't need to be so fucking imperialistic and world bullies and conquering countries for their resources and cheap labor and to force our products on them.

The corporations dictate our wars for profit and killing of innocent people on both side...Being realistic means trying to save her life with the facts.

[MichiganVote]

2. Good luck, they all lie and they can change her MOS as they choose

[Changenow]

6. Help! Is there a way to at very least make them commit to something!

Please.

[MichiganVote]

10. In a word, no.

Let me tell you something. Once a young person has signed on, they are assigned a date to go for a physical etc. If they pass they get a base for basic. Now I realize times are tough and jobs can be difficult to find, but Basic training is not for light weights. They will tell her what to and when to do it 24/7. In exchange for teaching her this self discipline all they as for is your life, if or when they need it. That's it. If she does not pass basic, and it happens, she will receive a general discharge and a thank you very much.

Today, the Air Force and the Navy have been offering to retire long standing troops for financial reasons. So if she is really and truly sure she wants to serve her country in this manner, she may be able to choose her MOS and hopefully keep it. But I want to stress to you,
that if this young lady is expecting to substitute the military because she found it hard to self discipline herself for school or to hustle for a job,she will learn the hard way, that the military is about service and service only. And not just any service, its service with a gun or potentially facing a gun. Recruiters will tell her what she wants to hear, but the military will make the decision to change her MOS if they see fit to do so. Right now the big things are MP's and Arabic language translators

She might consider relocation to an area that has more jobs such as San Antonio if she changes her mind.

[Skittles]

18. My Air Force basic training was like camp for me

but then I was escaping a dreadful home life.

[Rick in Maryland]

42. Have you ever been in the Air Force? Sure doesn't look like it.

[Rick in Maryland]

35. That's not true. If she gets a contract, they have to give her the job

written in the contract or the whole thing is moot. Even if she were to flunk out of her guaranteed job in tech school, they would have to allow her to leave if she chose to. She could always become a Security Police or Admin. Those are the two jobs they used to always offer to people that flunked out of tech school.

[tabasco]

4. They will often promise the school and deliver on that part ...

but not guarantee that the soldier will serve in the MOS (e.g. linguist specialty). Advise her to get promises on serving in a particular MOS or geographic area for her first term. Also advise her about stop-loss.
When we have an honest and patriotic President, military service is a good option. But with a boy-king like Bush in charge, I would advise against it.

[Changenow]

5. What is MOS?

Shoot, I've advised against it, but her mother thinks this will save her. Since it is going to happen I want very much to protect her.

[MichiganVote]

11. Military Occupational Specialty

She will take the ASVAB, a test to determine what areas of specialty she could qualify for. If she tests well, she can choose a higher end type of job in whatever service she applies for.

[Changenow]

12. Her mother said she took a test and scored over 90%

That's likely it.

[MichiganVote]

20. Then they'll want her

[tabasco]

14. That's the specific job you work in.

military occupational specialty

- Tell her if she doesn't get it in her contract, she can be classified into any MOS after she completes the school that was promised. They could send her to language school and then send her to MP school and make her an MP (reclassification).
- She should be very careful about the terms of the contract because recruiters are desperate right now.

[mandyky]

16. MOS - job descripption n/t

[Rick in Maryland]

34. It's an ARMY classification for one's job title.

[Rick in Maryland]

38. Soldier? How about Airman? We are talking about the Air Force, not the

Army. Two separate and different branches of the military.

[Curious Dave]

47. FYI

In the Air Force its called an AFSC (Air Force Specialty Code)

:)

And by all means - everybody needs to know about the stop loss programs. They're worse than the draft... forcing people who have already served to serve even more against their will. terrible

[Dem2theMax]

7. Get EVERYTHING in writing.

Before you go with them, take them to see Fahrenheit 9-11.
THEN sit down and talk about whether she really wants to do this or not. She and her Mom need to see what's really happening. The two 'stalker recruits' alone should wake them up to being VERY careful as to what she decides to do.

[Changenow]

8. She saw F9/11, and knows that the army isn't for her.

Man these recruiters are seductive. They will be the world's best salesmen when it's all over.

[BrotherBuzz]

9. PM Tinoire...

She attended the language school in Monterey, California. According to Tinoire it's a total immersion school and I wonder if it might just be the ticket for a poor self-discipline student. She may have some pointers or advice.

[Changenow]

13. Thanks, I'll do that. nt

[Changenow]

15. Anyone here know about the Coast Guard?

Does it have all these perils?

[BrotherBuzz]

17. Coast Guard were in Iraq...

primarily for port and harbor and waterway security

[lebkuchen]

19. Well, at least it's not the army

where recruits are guaranteed a ticket (perhaps one-way) to Iraq after training.

[Changenow]

21. So which branch is least likely to be sent to the ME?

And is there a way she can get a job within a particular branch that will more likely keep her out of harms way?

[BlueCollar]

22. The services are a good way

to change the direction of one's life. If it hadn't been for the Navy I wouldn't have my career today.

That being said, you said "...she seems committed to this choice..." and that i think is the important aspect of the whole thing.

The service is a committment and not one to be taken lightly. In my experience, it is also an organization that has a lot to offer however I would advise AGAINST a hasty decision...

By that I mean...what exactly is the Air Force recruiter offering as an MOS?

BTW in the Navy it is known as an NEC (Naval Enlistment Classification)

The school in California is probably the defense language Institute in Monterrey...used by all branches of the service and all the spook agencies...NSA/CIA/ABC/123...yadda/yadda....and it is VERY GOOD...enjoys an excellent reputation, but you can get there through a variety of methods. Mostly used to train intelligence related billets but I believe that the Diplomatic corps (State department) uses the institute also.

If she is to be trained there...and French is the language she will specialize in...and her billet/MOS will be cryptology/intelligence etc. then the safety factor is somewhat improved. They are unlikely to want to place an intelligence MOS in a combat zone...but as has been pointed out...they can switch your MOS any time they want.


Bottom line, Air Force or Navy ...less likely to face sustained combat situations...Army/Marine Corps ... it's what they do for a living ...Coast Guard...Good luck...highly desirable and damn tough to get in to.

Best of luck...but don't let her be too hasty with her decision...recruiters don't all lie...you just need to make sure that the decision making process is measured.

[porphyrian]

23. Unless you know someone with some rank in the service she's joining...

...I don't think you can be sure of anything. Slip her a bunch of acid so she'll fail the physical?

[Timefortruth]

25. LOL!

We have no contacts.

[ColdWarZoomie]

24. Air Force is OK

I served in the Air Force, and then worked with and around all branches after getting out.

One caveat, though, is that I got out of the Air Force in 1989. But here's some info.

In the Air Force, your job is called an AFSC (MOS for Army folks). I never knew anyone who was involuntarily transferred from one AFSC to another unless they flunked out of tech school. And the Air Force did not have secondary or "backup" AFSCs when I was in. Double check on this now. It's changed quite a bit.

Your friend's language school would be in California. I worked with many linguists during my stint - they were all in Signals Intelligence. Although I've never seen anyone change AFSC without flunking out of school or requesting to cross-train, linguists may be different. She could sign the dotted line for one language and be assigned another - I'm not sure. Definitely check this out since ME languages are in big demand right now for obvious reasons. If she got assigned an ME language, everyone can guess where she'd probably end up.

My recommendation to anyone wanting to serve under this current administration is to join the Navy or Air Force and sign up for a technical job - electronics technician, radio repair, computer networking, SATCOM, telecommunications, etc. - a skill that can be used after separation. In the Air Force, stay away from flight line work like aircraft and ground equipment maintenance, and construction jobs. These may get you to the ME working outside. The high tech, communications jobs may get you there but most likely working inside. But she would run the risk of being assigned to a mobile communications squadron or group that actually plays Army, too.

Too bad kids today have to consider politics before joining. I served during the Cold War. The enemy was legitimate and real. There was no question about why we needed to be ready to fight during the 1980s. I never once thought that it was a useless cause.

Unfortunately, today is different. I would seriously question serving under Bush after the Iraq fiasco.

Good luck to her.

[VLC98]

26. Advice from ex-recruiters wife.

Here's what I know from my husband's experiences in recruiting 3 years ago: Recruiters do not sell jobs, just the Air Force. If she scores high on the ASVAB and there is a language job available, she will be fine. My husband had people waiting for up to a year for particular jobs to become available. The people at MEPS are responsible for slotting her into a position and they won't mind wasting a good brain if she has one, they will try to sign her up for whatever they need. Do not let her sign up for OPEN GENERAL, or OPEN anything for that matter. If she does she will be selected for any crap they want to give her after a few weeks of basic, when they know she will pass and will be in a position to have to accept it.
Hope that helps. Good luck to her!

[Timefortruth]

28. All very good advice.

What is MEPS?

If she waited for a slot she wanted to become available would she take the language and basic training before she started waiting or would she qualify after the availability

[VLC98]

29. Not exactly sure what MEPS stands for.

Could probably google and find out, but I expect it's something like Military Entry Processing Station? They are, (or were 3 years ago), run by the Army and are in large cities. The one my hubby dealt with was in Tampa and we were about 90 miles from there. It's where the kids go to get their physical, be slotted for jobs and go through an initial swearing in (which is not final, but seems that way to the kids).

If you qualify for a particular job and are waiting for it to become available, you just stay at home until it opens up. The slot is for the technical training and job combined. They schedule your basic training according to the start date of your technical school. My husband said they usually start the 6 week basic training 8 weeks prior to tech school, in case you are held back, (which is fairly common). I asked him what you would do if you finished basic on time and had two weeks to spare, and he said they would make you go around picking up cigarette butts for two weeks.

[VLC98]

27. IMPORTANT!!

I forgot to mention....MEPS is often far from home depending how close you are to a big city. They get the kids up very early and put them through a lot that day, which can be very intimidating. (Parental involvement is highly discouraged). She has to be strong enough to resist if they try to coerce her into a job she doesn't want.

[amazona]

30. nothing can guarantee what the recruiter says actually happens

To my knowledge, the recruiter can pretty much say anything. When I was younger, I decided to talk to the recruiter myself, and I still can't believe the wild promises I was made.

[leesa]

31. Their plan to take away our jobs so we are forced to join the military

is working beautifully.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. She want to kill people rather than flip burgers?

Show her some photos of what happen to people (collateral damage) who are hit by our bombs.

[Changenow]

36. Her plan is to avoid actual conflict.

I'm old enough to see shades of gray. Where there is absolutely no doubt that Iraq was the greatest abuse of the military in US history, it is also sad but true that we need a military. If for no other reason, then to clean up after the next terrorist major terrorist attack since there isn't any interest in preventing it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Let her know that she won't be in charge.

I'm old enough to see shades of gray too. I spent 4 years seeing black & white in the military.

We already have a military.

[Rick in Maryland]

40. Better yet, show her some pictures of clogged arteries from eating burgers

[cap]

33. dont go...

they are reclassifying the military specialties and it is perfectly legal for them to do so. Whatever promise was made is not a promise that must be kept. She may sign up for one thing and the military may decide that she is doing another. She may sign up to go to Germany but they may legally send her to Iraq. They can legally break the contract if they choose and they are doing so these days especially for oversubscribed specialties. This story was just on DU. There is a little known law that permits them to do so.

[Rick in Maryland]

37. She would have to take a special test for language skill before

they would give her that job on her contract. I remember having to take it while in basic training. I already had a guaranteed job in electronics, but they seemed to think my asvab scores showed a strong ability in languages. I didn't want to take the test, but they made me. I had to go alone to a testing center and listen to made up languages and try to figure out what they were saying. I remember purposely tanking the test because I really did not want to go into languages.

I ended up meeting a lot of Linguists while I was in the Air Force. They were all really good, crazy people. They either rode around in RC-135 spy planes for 20 hours listening to Russian radio signals or sat in communication centers listening to Vietnamese or Korean radio.

Needless to say, most if not all of their assignments end up being overseas or worse, Nebraska. That can be a huge factor to some people.

I would imagine Arabic and Farsi would be in hot demand right now.

[mandyky]

39. I was a rural upstate NYer who enlisted in 76

I understand wanting to travel and get an education and have a job. I was Army.

I think your friend needs to choose a good MOS, translator would be okay in any branch, if she can learn Arabic. Any other MOS I would choose Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard. Wish her good luck for me.

[F.Gordon]

43. Have her contact me

I will put her in touch with someone I know in one particular VA Hospital. 20% of the Iraq "war" people residing in the psych ward are women. All have been raped or brutally gang raped by their fellow soldiers. They are all seriously fucked up. The VA doesn't usually admit patients to the psych ward for "feeling blue" or being a little depressed. Unless she wants to be "an army of one for the pleasure of many" I'd suggest that she pursue another employment avenue.

This is your military on bush*

[Rick in Maryland]

44. You know, it's crap like this that makes liberals look bad.

No wonder some on the right can get away with saying the people on the left do not support the military. That we hate the military. Crackpots spouting rubbish like this and passing it off as fact makes us all look so non-mainstream. Keep feeding the lefty anti-military stereotypes.

[F.Gordon]

48. Spouting rubbish? Crap?

The source for my information is 110% rock solid. This particular VA facility has 120 patients that have returned from Iraq that currently reside in their psych ward. The Ward Psychologist had determined that in each case with the women that their CO had been aware of what happened and did nothing. Did nothing to prevent it from happening....repeatedly.

I really don't give a flying fuck whether you believe me or not. During Vietnam our military had to fine tune their "don't tell" policy. That policy continues on in Iraq.

You see, when you take a kid that never had any intention of ever firing their weapon at a living person....send them 1/2 way round the world.... put them in a conflict in which they don't even know who the fuck the enemy is...you tend to fuck them up in the head a little bit....

Does that mean I hate the military? Sure. I hate our military and our "commander" for what they've done to these kids.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to the lounge and starting a thread about my 18 inch penis.
:silly:

[Rick in Maryland]

49. Your "information" is pure crackpot.

I am supposed to believe that some VA hospital psychologist was able to do 120 investigations in Iraq and was able to determine that not only were 120 women rapped, but that their commanding officers knew about it? That's just ridiculous.

I happened to walk by a book in Borders yesterday that caught my attention. It was entitled, "Reckless Disregard: How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, and Jeopardize Our Security". This book bothered my on many different levels. It bothered me it could sit in a mainstream bookstore for people to purchase. How could anyone think this is even remotely true? Why is the author of this book and people like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter can get away with saying liberals hate the military?

It's because of people like you.

You are a liberal democrat.
You admit you hate the military.
Liberal democrats therefor hate the military.

A young woman wants to join the U.S. Air Force to be a linguist. Your advice to her is to not do it unless she wants to be brutally gang raped by her fellow Airmen. That's a load of crap.

[F.Gordon]

50. I didn't say 120 women. I said 120 patients

20% of the patients were women. If you're going to accuse me of being a "crackpot" you need to, at the very least, follow the bouncing ball a little more closely. Also, did I say that the psychologist went to Iraq and "investigated" the rape charges? No, I didn't. This information came out during the sessions the Psychologist had with these women.

Based on your inability to read and digest information one could make the argument that all Liberal Democrats are stupid. I think there is a book on this as well. The next time you're at a Book Store browsing the Right Wing books you should look for one.
:eyes:

As for the young woman wanting to join the Air Force? I'd recommend that she attend the Colorado Springs Air Force academy. There would be no chance that she would be raped there.

[DarbyUSMC]

45. Ask her to consider the USMC. They do not send women into or near combat

zones. Yes, their training is tough but after it's over, you belong to the most unique outfit for women in the world and the only ones who can call themselves Marines --- the best of the best. There is no other name for a woman in the Marine Corps but Marine. She takes the same oath as her male counterparts and comes out of training with the same pride.

Semper Fidelis is more than just two words that sound patriotic.

{They don't have these uniforms anymore. Picture taken in late 1962, back in the old Corps, before most of you were born I imagine. ;-) }

http://community.webshots.com/photo/2537238/2491152maDqLDeDdM

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. God, you don't even know her and you want to join the crotch?

Things sure must've changed since when I was in.