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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:12 PM
Original message
Two Questions: First, why are the French dropping like flies in the heat..
And second, does my hat match my shoes? :tinfoilhat:

But seriously, how is it the French are keeling over to the tune possibly 5,000-7,000 heat realted casualties? Is it just me or is it even slightly odd that the only country having this problem in these numbers is FRANCE? Conspiracy theories aside, why only France? Is it not as hot everywhere else in Europe at the moment?

Our troops are enduring 120+ degree temperatures in the desert of Iraq, some of them still don't have their *summer* uniforms, and while I'm sure there have been heat related deaths we know nothing of, it's certainly not in comparable numbers. Anyone have any thoughts on this? :shrug:

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Air conditioning!
It's an American thing.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Well that would be right except that millions of Southerns grew up
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 12:22 PM by efhmc
without AC and lived through it. (We didn't have AC until I was 8.) We were much more conditioned to it and made our life style around that fact. I would imagine that many of those French folks affected are elderly or very young. But it is odd that this heat wave is causing so many more problem than those in previous years ('89). It seems to be lasting much longer.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. But you had hot, humid summers every summer
Europe doesn't. There was an interesting essay on today's NY Times' op-ed page about how the French in the Dordogne region usually deal with the typically brief heat waves without air conditioning (get up early, open all the doors to let in the morning cool air, then around noon, close all the shutters but leave the windows open--and stay indoors), and how this apprently age old method failed this unusually hot summer.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Exactly, although it is certainly not humid in West Texas and the
Dallas (north Texas) areas. We were used to it and the houses were made to capture any breeze and were usually well shaded. I'm sure that it would be different today with all being used to AC. I feel so sorry for those older people and the young babies. It looks like the weather may be shanging .
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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. a lot more people died in the South before air conditioning.
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 04:33 PM by MiltonLeBerle
elderly especially. and that's who's been hit the hardest in France- the old folk.
death rates were higher, and life expectacies were shorter.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not only France and I don't see the need for a satiric subject line
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I wasn't at all
meaning to be satiric. I'm starting to be concerned for my sanity, but with this bunch in power, even the craziest ideas seem not so far fetched anymore...
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. I guess not used to it and not prepared for it (ie, A/Cs)
The occupation forces in Iraq are also mostly healthy young men/women, while it is my understanding that many of the deaths in Europe are the elderly.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deaths are up 20% in Italy
and elsewhere in Europe too. For some reason the American media is concentrating on French deaths. Maybe to make them sound wimpy?

Heat and humidity aren't as common in Europe as they are in North America so many offices and homes don't have air conditioning like they do in Canada and the US.

The deaths are often of elderly people...the first to go under any unusual condition, while the soldiers in Iraq are young and healthy for the most part. So far 5 young soldiers there have died in their sleep from the heat.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bad comparison with our troops....
Our troops are generally younger adults and in pretty good shape (one of the pesky requirements of the military). That makes them more able to adapt to harsher conditions than the general populace.

In France, we have basically the entire range of ages and health concerns. The milder climate of France means most people don't have quick access to air conditioning and even a lot of the hotels don't have AC, so it's no surprise that people are dropping like flies.

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JackSwift Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's age related
These folks are older and living alone. They are much more susceptible to heat than a 20 year old soldier who is with other troops making sure they intake water. These folks alone get dehydrated and no one is around to remind them. They are thirsty, but they don't drink the liters of water necessary to stay hydrated. You have to know to do it, and if others are around, they can remind you.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. They're not used to it and many are not prepared
In my lifetime I've seen dozens of Western European people crap out from heat exhaustion while hiking in the mountains and deserts of the Western USA. Many European tourists are not accustomed to coping with weather that is hotter and dryer than their homelands. Even young people may collapse suddenly after walking only a mile or two in hot weather if they haven't consumed enough water.
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TNDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. I have a friend over there now.
She is spending a few weeks in Paris working on a project and has been e-mailing with updates. She was miserable, no air conditioning of course, and from years in Texas knew to sleep with wet towels over her body with a fan going. She said the bad thing there is that when the fans and air conditioners sell out, that's it. The U.S. would get more in in a couple of days but in France they say "no more this year."
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snyttri Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's rarely above ninety in Paris but it's very hot in Italy and Spain
every summer. In a heat wave in the eighties Chicago had a disproportionatly large number of deaths.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. Bush administration environmental policy is to blame
for all of this. They are killing the world.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The Absolute Power
"Bush administration environmental policy is to blame for all of this. They are killing the world."

Incredible. Truly Incredible.

The Power -- the Absolute Power -- of the Bush administration.

In less than three years, they have managed to gain total control of the Earth's weather.

We simply must get them out of power.

Why, if in less than three years, the Bush administration is so powerful, so smart, so awesome as to be totally responsible for heat waves in Western Europe, then who knows what other powers they might obtain in six more years?

They might be able to control the tides of the oceans!

They might be able to slow the rotation of the Earth!

Act NOW! Before it is Too Late!!
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Absolutely!!!!!!
Terribly frightening, isn't it??
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Frankly,
I do not think the current administration to be bright enough to cause severe weather in Western Europe -- or any where else, for that matter.

They are certainly evil, but they are little more than a bunch of bumbling idiots, iyam.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ever lived in tFrance?
Besides Paris? No A/C. Worse was the frigid northern Ontario style spring. Cripes I nearly froze to death in June in a high ceilinged, stone floor bedroom. Which brings me to the second point of legendary economizing of the French instilled after much war rationing and expensive energy. Even if they easily could they don't like to pay especially much for comfort.

Unfortunately any country or people that gets a little too static and non-adaptive through pride fiscal conservatism whatever is going to hurt during a change.

A less stodgy and unreactive government might have prudently averted many of the deaths. But then the expense would have people howling there as in the less rational US.
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. The solution needn't be expensive air-conditioning.
I've lived without it all my life--and when the heat was unbearable, rigged up something (a fan blowing across ice, eg). My favorite solution was an icebag from the pharmacy. I put it on my head and kept it in place with a hat. I looked silly wearing a hat indoors, but I felt cool.

I agree with some other posters here that the real failure of the French govt would have been if they didn't somehow get the message out about drinking far more liquid than you think you need. Lots of old people actually purposely drink less than they might like to because they hate having to get up in the night to go to the bathroom (my elderly neighbor says this).
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pbeal Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
16. oficial US propaganda
Its not just France people are dieing from the heat everywhere. But the official US propaganda line about the French is that they are effete cowards, and the reporting must conform to pre established stereotypes.

This of course ignores the number of people who die every year here in the US from heat related causes(over 6000).
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SaintLouisBlues Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. The same reason 700 plus in Chicago died in 1995.
And close to 300 in St. Louis in 1980.

Unusually high tempuratures that lasts at least a few days. The elderly too poor to have AC are the victims for the most part.
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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. it's not just being poor, at least in France-
people there just do not own air conditioners at the rate that people in the U.S. do. The normal August high temperature there is around 78 Fahrenheit.
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Where Do You Live?
Chicagoans ARE acclimated to summer heat and humidity, yet AT LEAST 739 people died:

"Chicago felt tropical, like Fiji or Guam but with an added layer of polluted city air trapping the heat. On the first day of the heat wave, Thursday, July 13, the temperature hit 106 degrees, and the heat index—a combination of heat and humidity that measures the temperature a typical person would feel—rose above 120. For a week, the heat persisted, running between the 90s and low 100s. The night temperatures, in the low to mid-80s, were unusually high and didn't provide much relief. Chicago's houses and apartment buildings baked like ovens. Air-conditioning helped, of course, if you were fortunate enough to have it. But many people only had fans and open windows, which just recirculated the hot air.

The city set new records for energy use, which then led to the failure of some power grids—at one point, 49,000 households had no electricity. Many Chicagoans swarmed the city's beaches, but others took to the fire hydrants. More than 3,000 hydrants around Chicago were opened, causing some neighborhoods to lose water pressure on top of losing electricity. When emergency crews came to seal the hydrants, some people threw bricks and rocks to keep them away.

The heat made the city's roads buckle. Train rails warped, causing long commuter and freight delays. City workers watered bridges to prevent them from locking when the plates expanded. Children riding in school buses became so dehydrated and nauseous that they had to be hosed down by the Fire Department. Hundreds of young people were hospitalized with heat-related illnesses. But the elderly, and especially the elderly who lived alone, were most vulnerable to the heat wave.

After about forty-eight hours of continuous exposure to heat, the body's defenses begin to fail. So by Friday, July 14, thousands of Chicagoans had developed severe heat-related illnesses. Paramedics couldn't keep up with emergency calls, and city hospitals were overwhelmed. Twenty-three hospitals—most on the South and Southwest Sides—went on bypass status, closing the doors of their emergency rooms to new patients. Some ambulance crews drove around the city for miles looking for an open bed.

Who were these 739 people? Was there a "typical" victim?
The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did a thorough study of individual-level risk factors for heat wave victims, and they came up with a list of conditions of vulnerability: living alone, not leaving home daily, lacking access to transportation, being sick or bedridden, not having social contacts nearby, and of course not having an air conditioner.

Given these factors, experts assumed that female victims would outnumber male victims in the heat wave deaths, because women are more prevalent among those who are old and who live alone. But in fact men were more than twice as likely to die as women. This is just one of the surprises that emerged during my study of the Chicago heat wave. To understand this we have to look at the social relationships that elderly women retain but that elderly men tend to lose.

The ethnic and racial differences in mortality are also significant for what they can teach us about urban life. The actual death tolls for African Americans and whites were almost identical, but those numbers are misleading. There are far more elderly whites than elderly African Americans in Chicago, and when the Chicago Public Health Department considered the age differences, they found that the black/white mortality ratio was 1.5 to 1.

Another surprising fact that emerged is that Latinos, who represent about 25 percent of the city population and are disproportionately poor and sick, accounted for only 2 percent of the heat-related deaths. I wrote Heat Wave to make sense of these numbers—to show, for instance, why the Latino Little Village neighborhood had a much lower death rate than African American North Lawndale. Many Chicagoans attributed the disparate death patterns to the ethnic differences among blacks, Latinos, and whites—and local experts made much of the purported Latino "family values." But there's a social and spatial context that makes close family ties possible. Chicago's Latinos tend to live in neighborhoods with high population density, busy commercial life in the streets, and vibrant public spaces. Most of the African American neighborhoods with high heat wave death rates had been abandoned—by employers, stores, and residents—in recent decades. The social ecology of abandonment, dispersion, and decay makes systems of social support exceedingly difficult to sustain."

Read more here: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/443213in.html

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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Thanks for this excellent article!
I feel chastened for having written a less than serious reply above. Not that I was making light of the problem--but I didn't really understand all the problems that severe heatwaves bring....
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. My temps are 50 - 75 year round
I've lived on the Oregon coast for about 6 years, I think I've adapted! Even after growing up in California central valley heat, when it hit 105 for ONE day last year, oh my god. It was so hot. We went to the beach for the entire afternoon where it was probably around 85, whew.

If that kind of heat hit here for weeks on end, we'd be droppin' like flies on the coast too.
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alaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yes, your hat is function AND fashion in this case.
Thanks for posting this question. You just gotta wonder about our media sometimes. No, all the time. What is not being talked about at all until the blackout last week is the suffering of the Iraqi people thanks to our invasion. They have gone 4 months without consistent electricity where it is normal for temperatures to be 115 or 120 degrees in the hottest period of summer. I am sure that people over there are suffering tremendously, yet I have yet to see any statistics as to fatalities from heat exhaustion,etc, and all we are hearing about is the French dying. Bias???????

It's a valid question. Thanks to the posters who said the same was true in Italy. Well, why are the talking heads not lamenting about the Italians on the news every evening, no it's the French, god has set a plague upon them. Not to make light of the situation, but it does kinda make you wonder.
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. That's the point I was trying to make
And I didn't do a very good job of it. I was at work and typing hastily without having thought out the question fully. Of course I imagined that other countries were suffering as well, and my intention was to ask why the FOCUS on France. And I agree with you that it's our media's way of indicating "Those French are paying now."
Although in fairness, I have lots of friends in different parts of Europe and they say that by far France seems to be getting the worst of it.

I'm just confused, I guess, as to how SO many people can be dying in 95 degree temperatures. I understand that most are elderly or children. I guess having lived most of my life in places where it is regularly 95+ during the summer it just doesn't seem life threateningly hot to me, A/C or no. As for the *controlling the weather* thing, that was also my point, as I hate that these people have even made me THINK such a thing. I feel like a complete loon just for having the thought cross my mind!! But after the whole Sept. 11th thing, nothing seems too out of the question. :(
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. alcohol and sun dont mix
ok ok its what a freeper would write but i couldnt resist
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magnolia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. Oddly enough....
...it's the good health of the people that caused this to happen. They happen to have an unusual amount of old people....like third highest in the world. They are healthier, live longer...so have a lot of old people, who are vulnerable to the heat. Because they stay healthy so long, they do not go to retirement homes, but live by themselves a lot of the time. So, no one is there watching them. Also, France is very good about record keeping and reporting the deaths. Other countries may have had as many deaths, but didn't necessarily report them all.

I've been to France a few times, as well as other European countries and I've noticed that they don't drink water. Some people never drink water. In a restaurant if you ask for water they think your nuts. This could have contributed to some of the deaths.
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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. wine and heat prostration don't mix.
and with it being August, the whole country is on vacation, so there are even fewer people around to check in on their elderly relatives and neighbors.
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