so a few guys got beheaded...how many innocents have we killed lately?

[mopaul]

i'll tell you, approximately thirty thousand.

why do they hate us again? i need reminded i guess.

[DrWeird]

1. But... but... but...

He's an American! We're more important!

[Darth_Kitten]

83. ANY human being is important....

My heart breaks for any innocents killed in this mess.

[raysr]

95. These guys

were there for THE MONEY!!!! They knew full well the risk! If it weren't for their GREED, they'd still be alive. Our troops sure as hell aren't there for the money, save your sympathy for them!

[Flagg]

2. Not cool

[mopaul]

3. you're right

[frankly_fedup2]

12. I bet if it were dignitaries or someone

in our government, not just average Joes' trying to make a little better money, something would have already been done about it.

And why don't they go after the government anyway? Because it's easier to get to the little guy.

I don't think 30,000 Saudis have been killed, and these idiots were Saudi. They could care less about the Iraqi people . . . just like our government.

[hlthe2b]

4. dimishing the cruel deaths of others is not the way to underscore

the horror of our actions in Iraq. I agree with your premise,MoPaul, but not your approach...

[mopaul]

7. it's almost as if bushco is REMINDING us with heavily covered beheadings

every month, a new beheading to show us how awful our 'enemy' is.

i want to see the 30,000 dead innocents covered a bit perhaps

[hlthe2b]

8. I'm worried about that as well.....eom

[datasuspect]

5. right on the money . . .

[zoidberg]

6. The same moral relativism the Abu Ghraib apologists use...

We treated prisoners better than Saddam, so our abuse isn't a big deal...

Innocent people were killed in our war, so beheading a civilian hostage is no big deal...

Both lines of thought are sickening and shameful.

[K-W]

14. You just dont get it do you.

He isnt apologizing for the beheading.

This incident was the death of ONE MAN. You are the one out of line here if you think that we should shed more tears for ONE man dying than for the tens of thousands of people who were killed in thier own country and homes because we decided thier lives didnt matter. They didnt get any news coverage.

So pardon me when I call foul when we act as if one dead contractor dying is the biggest injustice in the world today.

[jdsmith]

17. Not apologizing but making light of the death to score a sarcastic point

"So a few guys get beheaded. . . "

"Kidding on the square" is Al Franken's term.

[K-W]

21. He didnt make .light of it.

Or are you honestly trying to defend the attitude that this one death is a bigger deal than thousands of foreign people dying?

He isnt making light of the death, he is making light of the reaction, which deserves to be ridiculed.

[zoidberg]

32. It was a bigger deal!

Was James Byrd's death just another death? Emmitt Till? Rachel Corrie?

This beheading was a modern day lynching, an attack against the entire country.

[Ms. Clio]

98. Lynchings are not attacks on other countries

But it's an interesting argument.

[jdsmith]

38. Paul Johnson's death is EXACTLY as big a deal as those thousands

Or should I go somewhere for lessons in moral algebra?

[Name removed]

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[jdsmith]

55. One PERSON

Okay?

[K-W]

60. PEOPLE die every single day in this world.

How dare you preach to me about the value of human lives when you are trying to argue that this one death is as important as the deaths of thousands.

[jdsmith]

68. How dare I preach to you? Crazy with grief over one lousy death, I guess

Would 978 deaths rouse you to anger? How about 163? 12?

Death is death. Being able to accept--and, yes, make light of--one is a nice beginning.

[K-W]

72. You, not I are belittling deaths.

I am giving this death the exact same importance and emotional response that I give every unfair death in this world. It upsets me. 1000 people dying unfairly upsets me 100x more.

You are asking me to express MORE emotion over this ONE death than I do over the unfair deaths of others. That is wrong.

We are in total agreement that this death is wrong and upsetting. Where we differ is that this death deserves being more upset than the many many wrong deaths around the world.

[jdsmith]

77. "Humankind cannot bear very much reality"

Every death is worth mourning. Getting used to death--even to just one of them--is worth regretting.

[Hoping4Change]

28. Well said. Thank you. nt

[ashling]

70. That's not the point

I am not going to try to speak for Mopaul, but I think he would agree.

Nobody here is talking justification - well, maybe the Bushies are. Our disgraceful actions at Abu Graib were not justified by any rational stretch of the imagination ...nor is the murder of this hostage justified by our disgraceful actions

but how is the death of this hostage any more significant than the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians who were murdered indiscriminently through this unjustified war?

That is - or should be - the point.

Should not their deaths be taken into account? Where is the disgust and grieving for them and their families?

To say that each death was unnecessary is too obvious. To say that each death - each death - diminishes us all is too true.

The whole thing is disgusting, saddening, depressing - hell, there aren't words to say what it is - and my heart goes out to all of those affected ... to all of those left grieving for sons and daughters, fathers and mothers.

I am not a religious person, but I make this plea in all humility and reverence: Dear God, just let it end...for everyone's sake

[supernova]

9. Not going to choose

I'm not going to sit around and play the game of "who's life is worth more?" All victims of war get the same sized graves.

[Amaya]

10. It's ALL wrong

To belittle people who were beheaded is downright nasty.
If I didn't know better... I'd say you like to bait people? Or maybe you just like the attention?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[H2O Man]

64. it's cheap to suggest

that because these people disagree with you, that what you said went over their heads. For sake of discussion, I do not think there is anyone on here supporting the bush line. The deaths of the Iraqis is a terrible thing: bush et al are guilty of war crimes. They need to be held fully responsible for their actions. Likewise, we --you, me, etc -- need to be responsible for our words and deeds. What is our goal? To have a world where all violence is reduced? Or simply where our side, however defined, "wins"?

[Droopy]

11. Are you suggesting that those who were beheaded

are somehow less important because of U.S. atrocities? To me every one of those people killed on both sides is important and they would all be alive today if it weren't for the destructive policies of the Bush administration. Those men's deaths are not cheapened by what has happened in Iraq.

[K-W]

18. He didnt suggest anything of the sort.

On a day where America is massively mourning and desiring revenge for the death of ONE man, it is important to remember that innocent people die every day in this world. And that the US has killed plenty of innocent people.

Most of this country is going to use this to justify a world view where islamic terrorists are insane comic book villians and the US is superman. That is the biggest wrong that could possibly come of this.

[Droopy]

25. Sure sounded like it.

"so a few guys got beheaded..." Sounds like the original poster was saying it wasn't a big deal.

[K-W]

30. He was using sarcasm to point out how stupid it is

that the nation is in an uproar over one man dying when thousands of people have been killed by us.

Apparently it wasnt a big deal that thousands of civilians died at our hands, but it is a big deal that one american dies.

[mopaul]

36. it's the gross inequality of the coverage

and i'm glad that a few get the heavy sarcasm and cynisism and rage

[Raskolnik]

22. Yup, that's EXACTLY what he's suggesting.

And if anyone disagrees, its because they lack his keen understanding of world events.

[K-W]

26. No, they lack the belief that all human lives are valuable.

Not just americans.

[Raskolnik]

40. Clarify please.

I'm confused. Who is the "they" you're saying doesn't believe in the value of human life?

[K-W]

45. The only way you can support the outrage over this event

is if you feel that one americans death is a bigger injustice than the death of thousands of non-americans.

[Raskolnik]

53. No, I'm capable of both, thank you.

If the U.S. executes a captive to make a statement, I will be the first one in line to express my feelings on the matter.

[K-W]

59. So if a man dies as a captive to make a statement,

that is a bigger injustice than a family having thier house bombed and dying under a US warplane?

Oh please explain to me exactly when I should and shouldnt be outraged by people being murdered.

[Raskolnik]

73. Did I tell you NOT to feel outraged at our own actions?

No, I didn't.

Let me give you hypothetical: if someone breaks into your neighbor's house and tortures him to death, would your response upon hearing the news be "we shouldn't feel bad about it because there are awful things happening all over the world"? I don't think mine would.

This man was not killed by people who have had their houses bombed. He was killed by people that are the enemies of the civilized world. That isn't changed by the fact that the US is doing wrong in Iraq.

[mopaul]

33. i am suggesting bushco is exploiting this to deflect thier OWN Nazism

[Droopy]

62. That's a big step from

"so a few guys got beheaded." Maybe you could clarify next time instead of posting a one liner that could easily be misconstrued.

[G_j]

15. all of these deaths are Bush's fault n/t

[disinfo_guy]

96. the buck stops with Bush

he's not allowed to sidestep responsibility no matter how much he might want to

[LuminousX]

16. 1 American life = x Iraqi lives, solve for x

Wasn't it the Romans who had a standing policy that the death of 1 Roman garrison soldier would be repaid by the deaths of 100 people of the country the garrison was located? I might be confusing this with a fictional story or even Dune, but I don't think so.

The Bush Administration does seem to indicate that the life of 1 American is worth more than the life of 1 Iraqi (or other non-American national).

Perhaps because the Bush Administration believes in killing dozens and hundreds at a time instead of this overly personal one at a time.

I am not making light of something that would send me into a complete catatonic state if it happened to one of my family, but I do believe we need to keep perspective. These beheadings are horrific and evil. An evil that must be addressed. These beheadings do no justify our actions up to this point, though.

[DrWeird]

34. I think I can help narrow x down...

Several people (freepers that haven't got caught yet, I hope) have said that this beheading is worse than Abu Ghraib. Now there have been numerous men, women and children raped at Abu Ghraib, we've seen people electrocuted, and attacked by dogs, but ignoring that we still have the at least 23 people murdered at Abu Ghraib. Likely more.

So, at least to these people, the value of x is greater than or equal to 23.

[tandot]

19. freepers think we should just either convert them

all to Christianity or kill them all. To them, Muslims are all terrorists. So, they are not even sorry for any babies being kill. Abortion, of course, is morally wrong, but killing muslim-babies is totally acceptable.

Freepers love Fascism, Nazis, Hitler, and advocate genocide. Freepers are Bush's Gestapo.
:puke:

[Name removed]

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[K-W]

24. God forbid a few of us dont get caught up in our emotions.

And can look at this with some semblence of rationality. He never made light of the death, he is making light of the reaction.

[jdsmith]

31. He didn't make light of the death??

His header begins "So a few guys get beheaded." What is that but "making light"? Swiftian satire?

[K-W]

41. If you dont understand sarcasm, Im not sure I can be much help to you.

His point in no way made light of a death. I think you are confusing making light of something with not buying into the nationalistic irrational emotional fervor of soemthing.

If we are going to discuss the injustice of people dying in this world unfairly, then 2 beheadings are NOT that big a deal. If 2 people being beheaded was the extent of the unfair deaths on this planet, wed be doing pretty freakin good.

[jdsmith]

63. "I wanted to be sarcastic when I was fourteen," wrote John Knowles

in _A Separate Peace_, "but, than again, EVERYBODY wants to be sarcastic at fourteen." (paraphrased--book's in my other office)

Grown-ups strive for irony, a higher and wiser thing than the hamfistedness of "sarcasm."

[Name removed]

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[jdsmith]

74. I am referring to mopaul's tin ear re: irony, KW

And I am doing so because you suggested a couple of posts back that sarcasm is lost on me. If you condemn me for attacking the "poster's writing style" (how else does one examine an allegedly ironic statement without "attacking" the style of that statement since irony is, after all, a stylistic affectation?), please don't seem too abashed if I point out your resort--twice now in the last couple of minutes--to _ad hominem_ attack.

[Name removed]

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[K-W]

43. You must spend alot of your time being mortified.

Because plenty of people are unfairly killed EVERY DAY on this planet.

[Raskolnik]

49. Oh my god! You're the FIRST person to realize that!

Take that someplace else.

Being aware of the cruelty of the world does not preclude feeling revulsion at this treatment of an (individual) fellow human being.

[K-W]

54. How dare you act morally disgusted with me

You have no moral argument whatsoever that supports your point. If you are indeed more outraged by this death than by any single other unfair death in the world, you are saying that this mans life was worth more than thiers.

If thats what you think, fine. But dont come here and preach to me when you have such a morally repugnant stance. Americans are not more important than other human beings. This is ONE death.

[Raskolnik]

75. Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Reread your post, and you'll see one.

[Hoping4Change]

51. BE MORTIFIED THAT BUSH SAID BRING IT ON.

AND NOW THEY ARE BRINGING IT ON.

Your countryman despite all warnings to leave Saudi Arabia chose to stay. He knew the risk and accepted it. That he bought into the notion that he being American is invincible. He reminds me of Repukes refusing to confront the reality of unfettered rage towards Americans.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

56. Interesting thoughts

You have an interesting way of saying 1 american life=15-30 thousand middle eastern lives.

I direct you here...

BEFORE YOU CLICK, IT IS GRAPHIC!!! WARNING!

(or is it only ok when it shows the evil "THEY" do to "US"?)

Beheadings are horrible and so are other things official link



TWL



p.s.

[Raskolnik]

79. Perhaps you should not put words in my mouth.

I am asking you to point out where I suggested that particular algebra.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

84. Sorry to assume..

but you consistently argued that we should be outraged at the death of a fellow American, meanwhile never relating to Mopaul's original INTENT, which was to deflect some of this uproar over one televised death to acknowledging the TENS OF THOUSANDS of innocents that have been killed by 'America'.

Sorry to assume, if you really do care about both equally, you just had a poor way of showing it.

TWL

[Raskolnik]

85. The intent was not exactly that.

Well I didn't express sadness at the thousands of deaths from cancer this year, so does that mean that I don't think they're important? How about tragic housefires? I didn't say that its terrible when people get burned up, so I must not care?

I didn't bring up those other deaths because they don't change the fact that this one man was killed by some horrible people, not because I dismiss the deaths of Iraqis.

Mopaul is interested in creating a dichotomy where you can either feel sympathy for people who have been wronged by the US, or you can feel sympathy towards US citizens, but never both. I don't buy that.

[Name removed]

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[mopaul]

52. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Raskolnik]

61. Hard to argue with that...

Wow, you make some really great, rational points, don't you?

[Name removed]

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[Raskolnik]

78. Tell me what you think. I didn't call YOU a name. Just Mopaul.

Are you really making a case that we shouldn't feel revulsion at the news that a helpless captive was executed in order to create a propaganda video?

[Name removed]

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[Raskolnik]

80. Please repost...

Your response to my question must have gotten cut off.

If you are interested in discussing the topic at hand, please do so. If not, then what are you doing on this thread?

[Name removed]

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[Raskolnik]

82. So in other words...

You don't actually want to discuss the issue, you just want to discuss my discussing the discussion.

No thanks.

[Name removed]

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[Raskolnik]

88. Thanks for the laugh.

And for confirming my suspicions.

[Forkboy]

90. My pleasure

You confirmed mine the first day you arrived.Guess we're even :shrug:

[CitizenRob]

23. This guy was working on machines used to kill people.

I'm sorry, I have little sympathy. Does that make me a terrible person?

If it's any consulation I'm bummed that yet another person is dead... but if he can't work on those helicopters maybe they won't be out flying missions involving killing civilians either.

[jdsmith]

27. Nice you could work up a "bummed"

Hey, maybe if all the soldiers die, and if all the engineers die, and if all the technicians die, and everybody dies, then there won;t be anybody to fly those helicopters, and the world will be at peace.

[datasuspect]

37. or maybe . . .

we could have multiple emp bursts in the stratosphere which short circuit all electronics everywhere in the world.

how great would that be:

no more financial infrastructure
all debts vanish
money reverts to hard currency or precious metals or barter

then we can live in the shells of skyscrapers and hunt businessmen and hang them from the light posts that don't work anymore. better know how to use weapons, because an ivy league education and being well born won't accord any person privileges.

/sarcasm

[CitizenRob]

89. All that piece would be a major bummer... <eom>

[mopaul]

42. why would an american want to work there?

i'm not saying he deserved to be beheaded, but he knew what he was getting into by simply being there.

[K-W]

47. They get paid ALOT.

They know what risks they are taking, and they take them for the money.

[DrWeird]

48. My dad's over there.

Well he's in Jordan, they couldn't pay him enough to work in Saudi Arabia or Iraq.

He's working on reconstruction. Humanitarians stuff, which is why he went.

Johnson, however, was a cog in the war machine. In my opinion he was aiding and abetting murder, so I'm not going to shed any crocidile tears.

[tridim]

50. Remember that night scope footage

of the two unaware Iraqis being vaporized from the air? You know what? They were beheaded too.. and be-armed and and be-legged and be-torso'ed.

But that wasn't evil, that was first-class BushCo PR. Allow me to repose your question.. Why do they hate us again?

[jdsmith]

92. They hate us

because we have allowed our unelected president, operating as an agent of corporations, to engage us in a series of evil activities that have brought about thousands of needless deaths and ensured that a great many of our fellow Americans think of them as animals, not human beings.

So why should the crimes of George W. Bush and his cronies keep us from mourning the loss of another person's life or at least pointing out that using his death to score a point is incredibly cheap, dumb, and tasteless for the time being?

[muffin_man]

67. How about......

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? (Henry David Thoreau)

[Smelltheashes]

91. sorry mopaul

you lost me on that one. i guess in your opinion we need to behead "tens of thousands" of Americans there in order to make a blip on your radar.

[Name removed]

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[Delano]

94. What a knack you have, Mopaul...

...for taglines that give the worst possible impression.

Most of us despise Bush and opposed this war without having to blow off the deaths of Americans as irrelevant.

Your aversion to constructive ways of expressing yourself is astounding.

[Frederic Bastiat]

99. mopaul loves the attention

I guess some people have nothing better to do with their time.

[Forkboy]

100. Which explains why you responded to it

:crazy:

[Piperay]

97. So we tortured a few prisoners

Saddam and the Nazis tortured more (sarcasm)...one thing doesn't lessen another. :-(

I understand your point though.