Why do days like today bring out the worst in DUers?

[Kid_A]

I've read several posts that have basically dismissed the death of Paul Johnson as Bush Propaganda. Can some people here really not set aside their poltics and grieve for this man's family? Can anyone imagine what it must be like for these people to know that their husband and father was just murdered in cold blood, and that there are pictures of his headless corpse on the Internet for anyone to see?

Some days I really am ashamed of many of the people that post here. I don't want to name any names, but some of you are just sick. The same thing happened after Reagan died. There was an almost celebratory mood in some of the treads here that made me sick to my stomach. I would like to think that as liberals we can recognize the tragedy in ANY death, and not immediately resort to partisan rhetoric. I'll be the first to admit that I engage in a lot partisan rhetoric on this board, but there are times when everyone, on both sides of the political fence, should just shut the fuck up and allow a family to grieve the loss of a loved one.

Sorry if this sounds too "preachy", but some posts I've read since Paul Johnson's murder have made me ashamed to affiliate myself with some people on this board. One thread in particular was taken down, thankfully, but I still needed to get this off my chest. Thanks.

[thebigidea]

1. well, ala Inhofe - I'm more outraged over the outrage.

[King Of Paperboys]

10. Oh?

I find your outrage at the outrage to be outrageous, preposterous, and extraneous.

[thebigidea]

12. your excessive outrage is in itself a tremendous outrage to all outrages.

If I weren't so outraged right now, I'd register a complaint with the board of continuous outrage.

[Hutzpa]

78. LOL!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[ClassWarrior]

143. I think days like today bring out the worst...

...in everyone.

Senseless death sucks.

[mopaul]

14. while i can't speak for the others, i certainly am ashamed of myself...

...for having an opinion about something on an internet chatroom.

[thebigidea]

28. I'm outraged that your opinion is different from my opinion...

... and I'm willing to fight about it! Or at the very least, break a balsa wood chair over your head.

OUTRAGE!

[mopaul]

30. is anger your only agenda? cynicism your only cadenza?.....n/t

[thebigidea]

36. irony your only insight? sneering your only state?

I object, your honor. That's irrelevant.

Chico: "Irrelephant? Hey, that'sa the answer! There's a whole lot of irrelephants in the circus."

[Mandate My Ass]

2. That's why the admins, in their wisdom

provided us with ignore and hide thread options. And they both work.

[Kid_A]

13. I realize you don't have to read what you don't like...

but my point is that I'm sick of people who call themselves "liberal" being unable to feel compassion for other human beings. Isn't the reason we liberal opposed the war in Iraq that we didn't want our country to cause undue suffering on innocent civilians? I think that basic compassion for all humanity is at the very center of what it means to be a Liberal, and when I see people on this board shrugging off a gruesome murder like we saw today, I just wonder how they can call themselves Liberals. That's the point I was trying to make...

[Mandate My Ass]

27. see post #6

we can only control ourselves and we're only responsible for ourselves.

This is democratic underground, not liberal underground and daily I see stuff here that offends me to one degree or another but I don't start threads complaining about it because it's a big board and the good here far outweighs the bad.

[playahata1]

29. We have gone over this before (Ronald Reagan).

Paul Johnson would still be alive if not for the American presence -- no, make that INTRUSION -- in the Middle East. When does pointing this out equal a lack of compassion for his family?

Also, I do not think he died in the manner that this government to which I pay taxes wants us to believe. When does questioning news sources equal lack of compassion?

[jdsmith]

63. Compassion in the thread headed "Paul Johnson died, who cares?"

[playahata1]

74. I believe that the poster was saying that people should be more outraged

outraged at the deaths of 837 American soldiers/sailors/Marines for nothing, than at the death of just one person.

[jdsmith]

75. Pretty ineptly worded, then

There are ways of making the point without seeming morally bankrupt.

Are we going to weigh numbers of deaths to decide who's worse? One is bad enough.

[smirkymonkey]

59. Mind you, the key words there are "human being"

Most of us here feel compassion for human beings, however it's hard to cough it up for those who perpetrate war, misery and death in the name of the almighty dollar.

On edit: I am not speaking directly about Paul Johnson. I am feeling a bit hungover from the calls for compassion for a heartless politician who died a timely and merciful death and was largely responsible for the untimely and unmerciful deaths of thousands.

[Trajan]

118. Perhaps your overblowing this ? ...

Lets remember: DU is nearly 46,000 members: a few bad apples does not the tree make ...

Take a deep breath: fight the bad ones, and join the rest of us 'good' liberals in respecting the life of innocents, even those who probably should have left a dangerous place long ago ...

There comes a point where even good people should shoulder some responsibility if they KNOW danger exists and do not removse themselves when they can safely do so ...

NO job is worth THAT kind of danger .....

Im sorry for Paul Johnson, and Im especially sorry for his family ....

Let's hope the rest of the 'good people' leave now, before THEY get murdered in cold blood ....

[LibertyorDeath]

147. They are not shrugging of the murder

They are shrugging of the Optics the spin the bullshit Brain washing of the Media & the people who buy what the media is selling.

Where was the media when Thousands of innocent people were being murdered in Iraq.

Embedded with the Troops like a bunch of good little sycophants
telling the bullshit story the Military & Government wanted told.

Collateral damage entire families 4 year olds with their heads blown of
collateral damage.

Real reporters with humanity & professionalism were targeted & murdered in Iraq. For reporting the true atrocities.

They don't even bother to keep a true count of the number of dead Iraqi's

and they fudge the numbers for the American Military dead also.

This in no way excuses the ville & inhuman act that happened today.

But try & keep some perspective .

There's plenty of Death & Horror to go around for everyone caught up in Bush's Oil War. IMO

[Craig Roberts]

17. Inhofe, ignore, etc.

Since when do we take cues from people like Inhofe as to how we respond to events? The whole point, I thought, is that we are supposed to be better than those people.

Suggesting he just ignore the posters misses the point. They are still posting even if we stick our heads in the sand by ignoring them.

Sometimes I wonder if the real division in this society isn't between liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, but between those who can be adult in their approach to politics and who take their responsibilities as citizens seriously, and those who are stubbornly childish and narcissistic in their approach to politics and who see it all as sport.

[catzies]

37. Welcome to DU, and your last paragraph is worthy of discussion

It certainly gives me pause to think.




edit for my usual spelling problems

[Mandate My Ass]

47. I didn't say the 'Inhofe' response was the correct one

only that we can't control the Inhofes on this board.
The mods decide what stays and what goes and I respect
them for that.

Railing about it won't stop it so why blast the whole
board for the behavior of a few?

Stubbornly childish and narcissistic people are the ones
I find are first in line to do away with the 1st amendment
when it suits them.

[boxster]

71. Third paragraph...

Perfectly accurate.

[Rowdyboy]

95. Your post is one of the best I've seen here in a long time...

especially, the final paragraph. Welcome, and hope you have a VERY thick skin. You'll need it here.

[Pithlet]

113. Very well said

and welcome to DU. :hi: Someone else said it, and it's true; you'll need a thick skin. There are a lot of people here who see criticism as "net nannyism". But I think it needed to be said.

[belladonna]

114. Welcome to DU

And bravo on that last paragraph, couldn't have said it better myself :hi:

It's not all black and white, and this is not a game of US vs. them. I'm outraged by ALL of it.. by the torture going on in Iraq by the good ol' U.S. of A., by the monsters who beheaded Nick Berg, and by the monsters who beheaded Paul Johnson. More than anything, I'm outraged by the asshole sitting in our White House right now, because without him and the actions of his administration, we wouldn't be torturing prisoners of an unjust war in Iraq, and Nick Berg and Paul Johnson would be with their families where they belong.

[Craig Roberts]

140. Thanks

Thanks for the positive feedback on my comments (and the warnings!). A few months back I wrote a piece which was published here at DU on Arnold Schwarzenegger's candidacy for governor of California (they called it "Conan the Populist"). Maybe I'll develop my thoughts on the issue here into another piece.

I am glad to see I am not the only one who has these feelings about the state of political discourse in America. I feel like we have a patriotic responsibility to do better than this. And, as always, it is the liberal progressives who must lead the way if anything is ever to change.

[seventhson]

3. we reap what we sow

But I must say the orange jumpsuit makes it look like an inside job (inside meaning it was ordered by Cheney or Rummy to win brownie points and get electoral votes for Bush).

I grieve for the family.

I grieve for my country.

I grieve for the innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel and Palestine who suffer because of our militaristic jingoism.

He who lives by the sword dies by it.

It is sad but certainly a risk he took and was entirely predictable if one is working for a company which is killing innocent people by the truckload daily.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. I'll bet you never thought you'd hear me say this to you

but I wholeheartedly concur

[seventhson]

24. nothing shocks me anymore

but this is sad for his family.

But, as Malcolm X said when JFK was murdered: the chickens are coming home to roost, meaning it is a natural consequence and is thereby to be expected and even accepted as an indication that there is order in the universe. (that is what he meant, any way - I am not endorsing it)

[prolesunited]

4. It's a public message board

As much as I dislike what is said around here, what I dislike even MORE is the Net nannies who try to control what is said and how people respond.

The only person you can control is yourself. Hide the threads you don't like and if it's so intolerable, just stay off DU for a couple of days until the dust settles.

See how easy that is. :-)

[Craig Roberts]

23. You miss the whole point

He's not whining about being personally offended, he is arguing that we should be more serious and morally consistent in our discussion of certain events.

[Kid_A]

35. THANK YOU

I really don't have the energy to defend myself right now. And you summed up my point perfectly.

[Sugarbleus]

68. I'm with you Kid...

I didn't like Reagan; have a nicer opinion of his son though.

But I hear what you are saying about today's events. This board can go TOTALLY off it's rails sometimes. Sorta cannabalistic.

Like someone said here, when things get too heated, I just back off for awhile...let the dust settle, come back later on.

Still, it is a public board and as per "freedom of speech" one would think we could voice our opinions as such about any given issue--pro or con.

Hey, I have an idea. Since the name of this board is "Democractic" underground, not far left underground, why don't the admins put up a special "room" for people to discuss sensitive things like this out of the mainstream threads here. A more moderate and/or balanced opinions discussion room?? :think:

[prolesunited]

96. Yeah, let's segregate people

into "special" rooms and only allow people who agree or think like us in. I'm sure that will help :eyes:

Also, who is going to decide what's far left or tinfoil hat material. Is there some litmus test, some guidelines? I'm sure your standards are different than mine.

All this pretentious navel-gazing does absolutely nothing to curtail the those types of threads or end the cannibalism.

Did you ever think that people post some of those things just to piss all the Net nannies off?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Craig Roberts]

142. You're welcome

I think you raised a very good point.

[mopaul]

56. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Raskolnik]

98. What does that mean?

I really am curious. You seem to think it means SOMETHING, but I'm not sure what.

Help me out.

[prolesunited]

61. Again

Who are you to tell anyone how to act? Liberals, progressive and Dems come in all stripes and colors and as much as I cringe at some of the posts, they have every right to post their thoughts and opinions.

It's called FREE SPEECH. Try it. You just might like it.

In the marketplace of ideas, if something is illogical, moronic or mean-spirited, it will sink or people will call the author on it and they will be forced to defend their statements.

Why do you have such a problem with that? What do you think of the conservatives wanting to silence F911 because they find in unsettling and disturbing?

[TankLV]

123. He's whining and preaching.

Get over it.

A lot of people hold strong opinions, and those will differ at times.

I still celebrate the death of that asshole a couple weeks ago who caused a lot of pain and suffering in the world and to my friends and family PERSONALLY. I will never forgive him for that.

The poor soul who just died in SA is another victum in bushco's war on the rest of this planet. That is sad.

[stavka]

126. It's not REALLY public....

..and I agree, the place is a gold mine forpeople to quote ridiculous crap that does make DU look like a hash-house full of anarchist imbeciles.

Let's keep it up.

[playahata1]

5. Who made YOU the censor on this board?

Here, these are your words:

<<<I'll be the first to admit that I engage in a lot partisan rhetoric on this board, but there are times when everyone, on both sides of the political fence, should just shut the fuck up and allow a family to grieve the loss of a loved one.>>>

Something is NOT right with this story, and I have stated my reasons for believing so on at least one other thread. If something comes out in the media that stinks to high heaven, I am going to say so, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

[leyton]

21. Pointing out what is tasteless and insensitive

and what makes DU look bad and what makes me somewhat disgusted with DUers who see every damn thing from a news article to a beheading through an excessively partisan lens, looking to gain politically from every single tragedy that occurs in the Middle East... that ain't censorship.

[Craig Roberts]

32. Amen

[Kid_A]

38. I like you, man.

Welcome to DU! It's not always like this, I promise.:donut: Have a donut.

[playahata1]

49. Why are you so concerned about how DU looks to the RW,

the "undecided," "the swing voters," etc.?

If you cannot see that Americans, American foreign policy, are not wanted in the Middle East, and you cannot see that pointing this up is NOT tasteless and insensitive, then you and I have a problem here.

Translation: IT'S ALL POLITICS, whether or not you know, agree with, or like it.

[Raskolnik]

100. But if we don't constantly talk about W...

we might all forget he's a douche and vote for him in November.

[Hoping4Change]

152. Since when is questioning authority, especially when that

authority has blatantly lied and placed the world let alone America in greater peril, partisan? Whar makes you so sure that we are being given the truth when this administration has been implicated in a web of lies?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I'm not always proud of everything said on this site

But we seem to be living in a world and political climate that begs for the worst in people rather than the best.

It really IS our cultural conversation right now and none of us can escape it..we can only meter out our own reaction to it.

And...Bush's admin sees opportunity to politicize everything...they have from day 1...they created that condition.

[Jabbery]

7. You're WAY out of line. Lighten up, Francis.

Nobody here is celebrating this man's death, or anything of the kind. ALL People here are outraged that this happened. And they are outraged for many reasons, chief of which is that this administration has created a climate in which terrorists are kidnapping our people around the world and cutting their heads off.

The terrorists committed the act, but why? You don't really think they did it for their own amusement, do you?

If you can't see that the Bush administration has created a climate that fosters this kind of madness, I am sorry that you are unable to recognize this truth.

I agree that anyone who acts crudely should be censured, but I don't see much of that as you apparently do.

[seventhson]

15. I'm not at all sure that Bush et al did not do this

but I blame Bush for it anyway.

But for his fascism and stupidity and greed this man would be alive

[Kid_A]

26. One response I read was "Sucks to be him."

Now tell me that the person who wrote that is a real liberal who believes in the concept of compassion.

And I can recognize the truth of how the Bush Admin is fucking up the entire world. I recognize it all too well, and some days it almost makes me ashamed to call myself an American.

[seventhson]

33. I admiot that is a little juvenile

but it is true nevertheless.

Probably a kid

[Kid_A]

43. It was posted by a guy with over 5000 posts.

[DrWeird]

77. Look, I'm not going to get worked up about a guy I've never met.

He doesn't mean anything more to me than the 30,000 people he helped kill in Iraq.

[Kid_A]

80. He didn't kill anyone.

He took a job that payed well and would help him feed his family. Can you really fault him for loving his family so much that he was willing to travel to the last place in the world any American should want to go, in order to make some more money? In this economy, I'm sure he was eager to take any job he could get, and he found one that required him to assemble helicopters. You're calling him a killer now?

And what do you think of his newly-widowed wife? "Sucks to be her?" Does it serve her right because she married a man who "helped kill 30,000 people in Iraq"?

[DrWeird]

93. He helped people kill people.

He aided and abetted.

But hey, if he can personally profit from doing it, I'm sure that makes everything A-OK.

[jdsmith]

70. "A LITTLE juvenile"?

Reacting to a man's death with a snarky Life's-a-bitch half-witticism is just slightly juvenile? Sheesh.

[Hoping4Change]

79. That is gallows humour. Save your outrage for BRING- IT- ON

BUSH. Bush wanted the "ENEMY" to bring it on, well now that's what they're doing.

Am I a conspiracy theorist, a goon for recalling that Bush ASKED, no DEMANDED that this sh*t happen so he could show the sh*t disturbers who is boss.

[plurality]

8. Why should this day be different from any other?

Not to sound callous, but this is one man who died. I know it's a tragedy for all who knew him and I feel for them, what about the 50+ Iraqis who died yesterday, or the day before that, etc? Where's the outpouring of grief for the 40 Iraqis who died for the crime of having a wedding in the desert near the Syrian border, or the 40+ Palestinians who were killed when Israel fired missles into a crowd of peacful demonstrators?

Today I've seen people calling for the use of nuclear weapons against Iraq and other Islamic nations because some crazies killed ONE MAN. What would the world look like if every Muslim reacted similarly to the 1,000's of innocent Iraqis and Afghans that have died at American hands?

I'm sorry but a life is a life to me and I refuse to mourn poor Mr. Johnson's death any more or to mourn an Iraqis death any less due to the fact that we both happened to be enthralled to the same fictional creation (read nation).

[patrice]

9. I agree with you Kid.

Paul Johnson looks like someone whom I was very close to for a long time. I thought about how a man just wants to take care of his family, how the system in which we live costs people so much in terms of their own personal dreams, desires, talents, etc., costs them so much of what they really want from life that, of course, people look for the maximum paycheck in exchange for all of that other stuff that was what they REALLY and truly wanted from life.

I also think about how someone who works on Apache helicopters is responsible for what those machines do, and I feel sorry that Paul Johnson made this mistake.

[daa]

16. There is a reason

when you go overseas to work in a third world environment and make huge dollars and not pay any US income taxes, its called risk. Anyone dying is sad'however, Mr. Johnosn was paid a lot of money and he took the risk. He could have done the same job here for 1/2 the money, paid taxes and been safer. He made adangerous choice and sometimes it doesn't work out.

I choose to be safely laid off under the Bush depression rather than make big bucks in Iraq. We all make choices.

[Droopy]

18. There's already enough censoring on this board. n/t

[Zero Division]

19. The problem

I too find opinions like blaming Paul Johnson for "being in a place and time when he should have known better" and the obnoxiousness of some of the opinions expressed during Reagan's death to be disturbing, but I think we must give an adequate answer to those who express opinions such as "one American life is worth more than the lives of non-Americans" or that we must look at this tragedy as simply the product of the hate of those who committed this vile act.

Is it appropriate to let such opinions go unanswered?

[Hoping4Change]

20. Having been one of those who question this horrific crime, I must

protest your comments. I would never confront the family with these questions which I think are important to ask. I am one who despite hating Shrub from the get go< I believed he had proof of WMD's in Iraq. Once a fool shame on you, twice a fool same on me.

The week that the 9/11 hearings ended as was planned there just happens to be a horrible beheading. Having suspicions is not off-the-wall given the fact that the abduction and beheading are just SO convenient to this administration.

This administration has stopped at nothing. If it's willing to bankrupt the treasury, risk soldiers lives, and risk a major armed conflagration in the mid-east, what's one head?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. How do you think the Iraqi families felt when their loved ones were...

...murdered in the SAME prisons that Saddam used to have his prisoners tortured? I don't recall reading any compassionate posts from you on THAT subject.

[datasuspect]

52. well guess what . . .

they're BROWN and not really people anyway, so their deaths can be conveniently ignored or given some kind of maudlin lip service.

[seabeyond]

25. kid i have read overwhelmingly the people of du's

disgust in what happened and the sympathy to the family, and sadness this man experienced this.

i would hardly qualify this event as a whole of this group, adn i respect you discontent with those that dont feel the same as you. but, i came to a while ago, this is a group of many free thinkers, not the zombied talking point of the otherside. where they all learn exactly what they are to say.

i just dont feel to paint the whole group in one swoosh of brush, wink, equally

[mopaul]

39. gallows humor is real, has been all through history

laughing through the graveyard, a way to deal with the horror.

the song, ring around the rosie is about the black plauge.

people express themselves differently here for sure. i'm never offended by ANYTHING i read here, just bushco.

do we even have to say that we feel awful for the man's family?
of course we do. and someone else just said to me, why was he over there in the first place? so, everybody sees it from a different angle.

[Kid_A]

57. You're right, the majority of responses have been sane...

but I take issue with the responses that sound exactly like the vile hate speech those on the Right in this country constantly use to justify their views. I am by no means painting the group, just the ones who give this board a bad name and give ammo to our critics.

[seabeyond]

66. with the first big ole fart from reagan death that happened on this

board. oooosh about knocked me on my butt. a whole saturday of people saying the most hateful of things. i dont go that way, and was hard listening to all, all the while i was saying no no no people dont go down that road. but then i saw i had no power to stop it, (nor should i) and in stillness sat with the reaction. and the next morning came on the board and saw how the energy had changed, shifted. had gone from the immediate heartfelt first expression, to deeper thinking. and the week following i learned a lot. i learned about we the people, our individuality, personal experiences in reagans years and the angers, how reagan had shifted our world, how the repugs had manipulated and progressed further in using and abusing religion, reagans policies alone huge reminder what really was and seeing the whoring of the press, and i saw how it was a needed moment that saturday

i came to peace with all the varied reaction

and allowing people to express in their truth, gosh, so much to learn

[prolesunited]

97. Hey, feel free to challenge those people

Call them on it. Show them through reason why you're right. Why do you feel it necessary to enforce your standards on everyone else?

BTW, if the admins here were concerned it was "giving the board a bad name," don't you think they would stop it? Perhaps you could start your own board where you could control all of the content.

As far as giving "ammo to our critics," you could post that the sky is blue and they would find a way to twist it.

[Hoping4Change]

155. Many people could consider your post similiar to the vile hate

speech on the Right, condemning those who don't unquestioningly accept the official party line, and believing simplemindedness a la Forrest Gump is some proof of moral goodness.

If you think some of the gallows humour is out of bounds I suggest you read "This Way To The Gas Chambers, Ladies and Gentleman" written by a Jew who job in the concentration camp was to play violin as people were herded into gas chambers.

[patrice]

31. Those orange jumpsuits are a problem.

If Al Qaeida did this, why would they use one of those jumpsuits, don't they WANT us to know it is them doing it? If not, why?

I think there are agents at work in this situation who are completely independent of ALL sides. We're seeing double, triple, quadruple crosses.

[seventhson]

44. I can imagine that Al Qaeda is slick enough to know

the orange jumpsuits will sow confusion and shift possible blame to the Bushzis.

I can also envision the Bushzis being so stupid they would kill their own people for political gain and forget to take off the prison garb,

But WHERE is al qaeda getting these freaking orange things?

It is totally eery that they seem to have the same distributors for acquiring death and torture merchandise as our spooks.

I think it WAS the Bushes, though, frankly.

It is definitely Psyops supreme.

[Hoping4Change]

62. seventhson like you I habour suspicions. What I find very

questionable is the cotton padding covering Johnson's eyes and ears which then was securely taped around his head. What were his captors afraid of? Of all the others captors photographed why is Johnson the only one bandaged around his head?

[rumguy]

103. Some folks need to wake up and face reality - AQ is real

Yeah, yeah we provided some funding back in the early 80s to the jihad movement in Afghanistan. I ALREADY KNOW THAT! I'VE READ ALL THE ARTICLES ON PAUL JOHNSON'S 9/11 TIMELINE!

We helped create a monster and it got away from us. AQ is real and they are gunning for Americans. They are radical fundamentialist Islamics whose ideology is antiethical to everything we conider democratic and liberal.

They are a real enemy.

[leyton]

67. IIRC orange is the color for condemned men over there...

at least, that's what was said in another thread.

[boxster]

81. Can't be. It just can't be! That can't be true!!?!

We MUST be the only people on earth who use orange jumpsuits.

I know it. I just know it. I know the prison wear of every prison on earth! I know that we are the only ones with orange jumpsuits in the ENTIRE WORLD!

/extreme sarcasm

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

34. I agree with you.

Some people have no couth. Don't let it get you down. Also note, there are many neocon trolls who post here in efforts to discredit responsible liberal positions.

[mopaul]

42. yeah.................................?

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

82. Yep.

http://proxy.guardster.com/cgi-bin/nph-proxy.cgi/010100A/687474702f7777772e636f6e736572766174697665756e64657267726f756e642e636f6d2f2f666f72756d2f7068704242322f76696577746f7069632e7068703f743d3637323826686967686c696768743d6d6f7061756c

[DeepModem Mom]

51. Hi, RS -- welcome to DU, where "couth" is, I agree...

lacking in some.

[Bluebear]

165. Still no remains? What stinks about this story?

[Bluebear]

40. What is the appropriate grieving period?

This was a horrible, horrible murder. I am heartsick for his family. I was heartsick seeing their pleas in the media for their dad's life.

Having said that, since the family is not here on this message board, what is the period of time you suggest that no one question these acts in order to "shut the fuck up and allow a family to grieve the loss of a loved one"?

While this is happening, I read on another thread that Bush wants to screen the whole damn population for "mental illness". I hope more people question everything nowadays, even if the answers are above-board and disprove conspiracies, else we are headed towards an America whose Constitutional fabric is dismantled, as John Dean recently warned.

[Andromeda]

41. Stop making sense!

Being sensitive and considerate would spoil their fun, don't ya know?

There are a lot of immature posters at DU; some, I would imagine, are still in their teens. Their brains just haven't fully developed so maybe there is some hope, maybe. The others? -- well, just try to ignore them if you can.

There are a lot of good people who post on DU, so those of you who are "normal" please don't go away -- we need you. Not everybody on DU is nuts, just a noisy few.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. And your post, complete with name-calling, is indicative of what, exactly?

[Andromeda]

83. Ummm, name calling?

I didn't call anybody names, but if the shoe fits...

[mopaul]

48. thanks for remembering us normal ones...............n/t

[Andromeda]

88. You're welcome...

.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andromeda]

85. You've proven my point...

:freak:

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoping4Change]

99. "when you repress anger, you repress the immune system "

"Repression of emotion, particularly anger, became a coping device to avoid intolerable psychic pain. But as Maté points out, when you repress anger, you repress the immune system too, often with tragic results."

http://www.whenthebodysaysno.ca/reviewsedm.html

Frankly there is alot of reason to be angry at what is happening, especially the propaganda value that is being milked from this horrific incidence.

[Andromeda]

145. I'm not sure what you're saying...

Do you mean that some of the anger DUers direct at one another is anger that is misdirected? Maybe it's done out of frustration because of external forces that we have no control over?

[Hoping4Change]

163. "Do not go gentle into that good night"

What I am saying is that not all people grieve or respond to horrific events by sipping on tea and feeling mournful. Anger is a legitimate and healthy response.

I used this quote having heard Mate explain recent research that shows that cancer patients who got mad at their doctors and mad at their cancer had a stronger immune response, that is more KillerT cells were produced than those who tried to think good thoughts.

[Dorian Gray]

144. I'm relatively new here, too...

And I am one of the few that is heartsick about Paul Johnson, and I am so sad for his family.

As for the responses on this board, I think that the majority of people feel badly about his death. But, this is the internet. The place where people can blindly post whatever they want. Sometimes it's hateful.

It's a sad reality.

I think that the only thing any of us want to do is catch the perpetrators who murdered this civilian. Prevent them from doing this again.

[Andromeda]

146. Yes, I agree with you.

Not everybody expresses her/his anger and fear in appropriate ways and sometimes it's easier when you're anonymous -- safer somehow -- to lash out at someone you can't see and someone you may never meet.

I really don't take it personally because I realize that not everybody is going to love my opinions. :)

I, too, feel sad for Paul Johnson's family. This is a horrible ordeal for them to have to cope with and I hope the day comes when Americans can feel safe again when they go abroad. Someone who had lived in Saudi Arabia like Paul Johnson, who had made many Muslim friends, shouldn't have had to worry about something like this happening.

When Kerry is President I hope things turn around.

[Hoping4Change]

164. Well put on your hard hats because DUers take free speech seriously.

For people accustomed to the pablum media whores dish out be prepared for honest, heated, hardheaded, passionate disagreement. So if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.

BTW Welcome to DU:hi:

[coloradodem2005]

45. How I see it.

The beheading of Paul Johnson was an act of evil. I know that we need to avoid pejorative terms too much. Muslims and Arabs are not evil, but Al Quaeda is. I have fear that Bush will use this death for political advantage the way he used Nick Berg's though that did not suceede. We need to realize that this issue of terrorism is not a partisan issue. We do need to deal with Al Quaeda. Clinton knew this and I think he did all he could. THis is why he tried to impress upon Bush how much of a threat that they were. But the fact is that we have been doing it all wrong. But I believe this death as well as Berg's should show how evil Al Quaeda is.

[Q]

53. Your tirade against the faceless 'Al Quaeda'...

...dismisses the fact that Bush* didn't attack those who perpetuated the crime of 9-11. He simply INVENTED reasons to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. The thousands of tons of bombs dropped killed mostly innocent civilians and not ONE terrorist.

- Try to look at the bigger picture. We wouldn't have to witness the beheading of Americans if Bush* hadn't started illegal wars, denied that the Geneva Conventions applied to the US and told the rest of the world to fuck off.

[coloradodem2005]

60. I don't disagree with you.

I am not supporting these bogus war efforts. I agree that Bush is to blame for this, at least most of it. But the problem that they presented existed before and they are evil.

[TrogL]

50. We've got a small group of tinfoilhatters ...

who used to limit themselves to 9-11 forum but have become emboldened with recent events.

[Zero Division]

55. I am a bit amazed by how some see a conspiracy in EVERYTHING...

and if you don't also, then they accuse you of "ALWAYS believing the mainstream media and mainstream opinions". I fear for what would happen to some if Fox News declared the sky to be blue.

[seemslikeadream]

54. Save your grief for these people - not the mercenaries !

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY



SOMEONE LIES BLEEDING IN A FIELD SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



I'VE SEEN ALL I WANNA SEE TODAY



WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN



SOMEONE'S SON LIES DEAD IN A GUTTER SOMEWHERE



AND IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE'VE GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY



WHILE I SIT AND WE TALK AND TALK AND WE TALK SOME MORE



SOMEONE'S LOVED ONE'S HEART STOPS BEATING IN A STREET SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO, I KNOW



I'VE HEARD ALL I WANNA HEAR TODAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY)



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY)



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



TURN IT OFF


my heart to
phil collins for the words
the people of Haiti for their struggle
bob for being a friend

[seemslikeadream]

58. Let America be America Again

WATCH THIS VIDEO

EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...
HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...
BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE


http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html


Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!


Langston Hughes

[boxster]

64. Unbelievable....

I've never seen so many people unintentionally prove a poster's point before.

Kid_A is one of us, people. Let's actually put a little thought into what he's saying, rather than knee-jerk reacting and bashing him over the head for actually showing a little compassion.

Nice post, Kid_A. And, you're exactly right. It's too bad that so many people have forgotten what being a liberal is supposed to be all about.

Dismissing the horrible death of an American solely for the purpose of bashing Bush one more time is extremely petty. It's not like there aren't thousands of other things to criticize about Bush.

[wadestock]

65. I wouldn't downplay any form of outrage.....

We're over there royally screwing up and something like this happens and we're supposed to put it all in perspective and remind ourselves of how decent we really are...or perhaps put it in a perspective for many in terms of perhaps "good vs evil". No, this is just one big screw up and directly related to us screwing up in the first place.

I'm completely outraged about this and plenty other things and I'm taking no pause. To this day nobody's really doing anything much to provide safety against terrorism. Ask yourself's why we're not inoculated against small pox....something that could put 50million of us underground within a few months. For every pause you take you're risking not contributing that much more to the realization that our government is completely out of control.

[Larkspur]

69. Any civilian who works in Saudi Arabia has got to be aware that

this type of thing could happen at anytime.

I have sympathies for him and his family, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that he should have left Saudi Arabia when he had the chance.

[donhakman]

73. My illustrations

have never disappeared so fast as they have today.

You know, if we can not depict the news in jest we let the power of the taboo rule. We become ruled by it.

oh yeah, there are forum rules regarding depicted death...

Never mind.

[Hoping4Change]

76. dohakman, I just saw your bowl of potato heads.

Its brilliant. I'm keeping my eyes peeled from now on for your posts.
:toast:

[mdmc]

84. show me!

God bless all .

[mdmc]

86. show me!

God bless all .

[Hoping4Change]

92. Graphic Warning! Proceed with caution. Don't blame me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1813946

edit: typo

[Raskolnik]

89. Agree wholeheartedly

Very well put.

[OKNancy]

90. Because Liberals can be assholes too

The right has more of them, but we have our vocal minority.

[mopaul]

91. that's right, why should they corner the market on assholes?

they got real big assholes, rush, boortz, all we got is a few little assholes up in here. and i'm one of em

[progressivebydesign]

102. Yay for you! The first step is acknowledging your problem. N/T

[immune2irony]

94. The idea here is to associate Bush with beheadings

Why is the DNC not playing this up? Maybe call him the "Decapitation President". Point out worldwide decapitations of Americans abroad have gone up 3000% since he took office. Point to Kerry as the man who will stop the madness.

[progressivebydesign]

101. Because there are a lot of unsocialized assholes on DU.

It's just more apparent on days like this... I'd like to tell you they come out of the woodowork, but they are around most of the time, like an infected splinter in your thumb.

How they could dismiss another brutal death like that.. as though being sorry for the man and his family, and what he must have been through, because THEY feel they are intellectually and morally superior in their claims that his death is meaningless because 30k other people died.. that's just beyond me.

I guess when their time comes, and they are struggling for air on a sidewalk somewhere.. perhaps no one will call 911, because people die all the time. Big deal.

[Hoping4Change]

105. Odd how people outraged by lack of civility have no qualms

about using profanity such as a**hole. Ever thought about practicing what you preach?

[Forkboy]

150. it's the funniest part of these threads

:)

[fishnfla]

104. The dead man's son lives down the way here

Port St John, he's been on the local news all week. He's pretty torn up.

face it Kid_A: people's opinions that they post facelessly and spinelessly on the internet are more important to them than life itself

[loudsue]

106. This is DU. You're not in Sunday School.

Gawd I hate these "I'm better 'n everybody here because I have the right kind of FEEEELLLLINGS!" posts.

Let's everybody gang up and hang any poster that goes against the Self Righteous Ones' way of dealing with reality. And then let's all get together and praise and elevate ourselves because our point of view is sooooo much better than so-and-so's.

You wrote:

"Sorry if this sounds too "preachy", but some posts I've read since Paul Johnson's murder have made me ashamed to affiliate myself with some people on this board. One thread in particular was taken down, thankfully, but I still needed to get this off my chest. Thanks."

Why didn't you just "get it off your chest" in the thread where the offending posters said something you disagreed with? Why did you need to start a whole new thread to trash DUers and some people on this board? If the thread got taken down anyway, why do you have to keep throwing dirt?

"have made me ashamed to affiliate myself with some people on this board"

So don't affiliate yourself with them!!! Thanks to all the Self Righteous Ones for showing everyone how totally superior you are. This helps us to recognize you, so we can bow down when you come onto a thread. Then you can begin to mold DU in your own image, and we'll all be so much better off. Of course we'll never LEARN anything new, but hey! You guys will feel SO MUCH BETTER, and after all, isn't that the purpose of DU?

Conservatives.....sheesh!!!

[Hoping4Change]

108. *****************AMEN SISTER***************************************

:toast:

[JohnLocke]

109. Decency is not self-righteousness.

[loudsue]

110. Preaching about how decent you are and how everyone who disagrees

or behaves otherwise is bad, and how it somehow soils your hands to hang out with those who see things another way.....THAT most certainly is self-righteousness.

Decency is behaving in a way you believe in ....not trying to beat someone else over the head with YOUR definition of decency.

[mopaul]

115. woo woo!

i hate the church lady, she's so..........SUPERIOR!!!!

[Tinoire]

.

:loveya:

Well said.

[Tinoire]

148. .

:loveya:

Well said.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

107. Because Some Just Don't Care About Paul Johnson; It's All About Them

It's just self-indulgent ranting on an anonymous Internet message board.

DTH

[mopaul]

116. isn't that special?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

117. It's All About You, Mopaul

And I really don't think you'd have the guts to say anything you've said here today in person. That keyboard sure makes you brave, doesn't it?

DTH

[scrotim]

132. watch out, Dove. MoPaul appears to be one of the DU Cool Kids

perhaps he can have you disappeared:scared:

[Forkboy]

134. I doubt DTH has to worry about that

you,on the other hand better look out!

(kidding)

[mopaul]

154. or figuratavely beheaded

everyone loves mo paul...why don't you?

[mopaul]

153. anything i say here, i'd say to your face dove

and i can prove it. i don't temper my words to suit others.
just the way i am. im a smart ass.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

161. Not to a Crowd of Strangers

Sorry, I'm not buyin'.

DTH

[datasuspect]

156. yeah, you better be careful . . .

i read somewhere that mopaul is really a GOP operative who comes here to mess with our heads!

heavens to betsy!

[mopaul]

159. AND....i'm a girl

AND....i'm a giant brain in a tank of saline wired to a camera and the internet bent on conquering the globe

[datasuspect]

160. mopaul

is that than which nothing greater can be conceived

[Forkboy]

112. Yeah but it gives the self righteous something to do

for each post that's nasty we get a "you should be ashamed" thread!

[Rex]

120. DU cosmic balance.

For every self-righteous blathering blatherskyte, you have one outrageously blunt bigfuckingdealio.

I have no idea what it all means, go ask Zod.

[Forkboy]

122. "blatherskyte"

I'm not sure what that is but I plan on using it in the future nonetheless :)

[RetroLounge]

119. Why do days like this bring out the preachy DU'ers

who annoyingly become net-nannies when someone exercises their right to say stupid things, smart things, or anything in between?

And Kid A (The album) sucked...

RL

[Rex]

121. IMNSHO

It's because their pets stopped listening to them years ago. :evilgrin:

[Pithlet]

124. You are doing the same thing

you claim the "net nannies" are doing.

Net nanny.

[Forkboy]

125. How so?

[Pithlet]

127. If you are arguing

that people shouldn't post a specific type of criticism, meaning you are trying to enforce a particular set of net discussion rules, how is that any different than the so called "net nannies"? You just disagree about the rule book.

[Forkboy]

128. But retro never said anything about what others should say or do

so your explanation doesn't fit.

[Pithlet]

131. So,

Everyone running around and calling anyone who takes an objection to what is being said a net nanny is supposed to make them post more?

It doesn't have to be directly implied. There is a big tendency here at DU to say things and not expect to get called on them or criticized. When that happens, people get shouted down and called names, claiming the OP had the right to say it. Well, so does the one doing the criticizing.

You know, sometimes people are genuinely bothered by what they see. It isn't always a case of trying to make themselves feel superior, which is another thing that often gets claimed.

I'm not taking either side on the issue, I'm just making an observation.

[RetroLounge]

135. What? Mocking? Being Sarcastic?

oh, wait, are you telling me I shouldn't have posted that?

Ooooh, recursion makes me dizzy...

RL

[Pithlet]

139. Did I say

you shouldn't have posted that?

[Pepperbelly]

129. Death is both tragic and irrelevent existentially ...

and it is a terrible misfortune that Mr. Johnson was murdered. I think I would prefer, if being murdered, to have it done at 90 for cuckolding some guy.

However, in acknowledging the tragedy inherent in Mr. Johnson's death, we should also acknowledge the tragedy in the deaths caused by Apache Attack Helocopters in 3rd world nations. We should also acknowledge how tragic it was that Mr. Johnson was in the Kingdom working on those machine.

The world is so filled with tragedy, that is why I acknowledge that death is irrelevent existentially, particularly if it doesn't touch our personal circle of people. I hate it. I do not cheer it although for Mr. Reagan, it might well be a blessing since he had suffered so long from Altzheimers and was in the final stages of it when he died.

[Kazak]

130. I'm curious,...

how exactly is bickering and debating amongst DUers prohibitng the family from grieving? :shrug:

[playahata1]

133. Thank you for bringing this up.

This is the same argument used by those who claim that opposition to war puts the troops in danger.

[Hoping4Change]

137. I've been meaning to say that myself. Thanx.

[Pithlet]

141. How is that?

Exactly? This is a message board. Disagreeing with a post is the same thinking as those who would suppress the freedom to dissent for everone in the US? That is ridiculous. A little perspective works wonders.

[Hoping4Change]

157. The point is that it is not simply disagreeing.

Below are just a sampling of comments that are smearing those of us who question the official story. Keep in mind Bushco has given everyone enough reason to raise questions about the veracity of official reports. Furthermore as many DUers have pointed out Johnson is just one of countless horrific deaths so why single out his death as any more horrific. I personally think that he unlike soldiers and civilians did not need to be in harm's way nor did he die in service to a humanitarian cause. It is frankly beyond me why his death should be treated with kid gloves.


Quotes

some of you are just sick

everyone, on both sides of the political fence, should just shut the fuck up

people who call themselves "liberal" being unable to feel compassion
stubbornly childish and narcissistic

Since the name of this board is "Democractic" underground, not far left underground, why don't the admins put up a special "room" ...

make DU look like a hash-house full of anarchist imbeciles.

[mopaul]

162. how dare we question the official white house lies? are we crazy?

and how dare we be smart asses, even though we live in a free speech society and there is no censorship on the internet YET?

i've lived many years in america and i'm a citizen and i'm a smartass. should i be beheaded? maybe.

[Hoping4Change]

136. Great point. I too am curious.

[RetroLounge]

138. Don't expect an answer to that.

at least not one that makes sense...

RL

[walldude]

149. I cannot seem to feel anything

about Paul Johnsons death. I've pretty much become numb. Yesterday on a local moderate talk show the host reported "Yesterday a bomb went off near an Iraqi army recruting station killing 35 men trying to sign up for the new Iraqi army. I just thank god no American G.I's were there." 35 Iraqi deaths, guys trying to work with the "new Iraq", ment nothing to this man. As long as there were no Americans killed he was grateful. Now he got his one death and it's front page news. The lead story on FNC's On The Record tonight was: "The savages have struck again". While I agree this was a savage and evil act it is no more savage or evil than the horrors we have perpetrated on the Iraqi people. Horrors that are kept hidden from us. When a crack in the dam appears and we get a glimpse of those horrors we are told that we are justified in what we are doing. It's... Insane. The terrorists have already won. This latest act of brutality has added another notch to their belt. Americans live in fear. Because of this fear we are irrationally trying to wipe out the terrorists instead of trying to stop terrorism. Terrorism is a weed. Cut it down it grows back. Pull out the roots and it's gone for good. Of course that means I'm sympathetic to terrorists and un-patriotic, and anti-American and a Blame America Firster, and the worst thing of all a Liberal.
I can appreciate how you feel Kid_A but if I let myself start feeling for every lost life in this war I will go totally insane. Like the rest of the country...

[Forkboy]

151. Excellent post walldude

Welcome to DU :hi:

[datasuspect]

158. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

that's good, i wanted to say that, but i lacked the idea.