Could someone give me some insight into the death of Wellstone?

[coloradodem2005]

What caused the plane to crash on 10-25-02?


I am writing an alternate history on www.othertimelines.com and I want Wellstone to live and win a third term, a problem with the plane to be tied to Republican operatives and an investigation that will besiege the * misadministration. What could you tell me?

[lanparty]

1. Pilot error ????

By an experienced pilot on a clear day. At least thats what the NTSB said.

Personally, I think he was killed the same way that Mel Carnahan and John Tower were.

[coloradodem2005]

2. How was that?

[Eloriel]

3. Experienced pilot AND a co-pilot

who veered off course by about 2 miles (with the airport in sight) and also allowed the plane to lose speed to stall stage.

I'm not an expert on this. Maybe stickdog or one of the other Wellstone researchers will be around to add some details.

[lanparty]

15. Engine failure ????

If the engine lost power, you should STILL be able to glide to a safe landing.

[stickdog]

16. The engines were working just fine.

The propellers were still turning when they hit the trees.

[Renew Deal]

4. The last time someone tried this it went almost 300 posts.

Get your flame thrower.

[Wickerman]

5. If you search the archives

you will find every plausible and some not so plausible reasons why the Wellstone plane fell out of the sky. NTSB said pilot error, but countless DU threads say different.

Have fun.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. Here's a thread from the archive you may want to read:

A lot of heat, but also much light:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=561809&mesg_id=561809

[DenverDem]

7. The big question,

cui bono?

[LeftCoast]

8. Let me just say this

On the day Wellstone died, my partner (who is a pilot) looked at the radar for that area. It was under a sever icing alert. I saw it myself. The weather, in fact, was so bad that the FAA would not fly up there to investigate. They drove.

Now people can flame me all they want. Paul Wellstone was a good man, and it really sucks that he died way too soon. I've been in icing conditions in small planes before and it's scary stuff, but unless the "conspirators" can control the weather this was just a terrible accident.

[preciousdove]

11. Mpls FBI made the 2 hour trip by car in 1 hour in all that bad weather.

I was a ride along on an Angel Medical flight and we landed in a tiny plane Springfield MO during a thunder storm last month and were really buffeted while landing. More than ever I don't believe those pilots would have let the other one let the plane stall. You know second by second what control the pilot has even if it is your first flight on a small plane.

I don't know if the people who post they are pilots here and pooh-pooh anything but pilot error in bad weather are actually pilots or are paid to come here and say those things.

I said it the moment I heard it announced that it was not an accident and I still believe it after reading the rantings of self proclaimed pilots on DU who were not there. Hell, he was even threatened after his vote on Iraq. Wellstone was terrified of small planes and he would not have flown with anybody he did not trust.

I read several techncial publictions and looked into it on line. There are mobile pulse generators that could temporarily stall the plane and could cause the speed to drop to low. There would nothing for the NTSB to find. There was no black box on board.

You are not going to find evidence in the formal investigation. Like Hoffa unless someone involved has a change of heart I doubt there is any evidence to find.

[stickdog]

12. Misinformation

On the day Wellstone died, my partner (who is a pilot) looked at the radar for that area. It was under a sever icing alert.

Wrong. The area was under a light to moderate icing alert between 11,000 and 14,000 feet. That's why Wellstone's plane approached -- with no apparent problems over a nearly seven minute period -- at 4,000 feet.

The weather, in fact, was so bad that the FAA would not fly up there to investigate. They drove.

This is true and extremely interesting because the Eveleth Airport was never ordered closed. Nor were any other nearby airports -- including Duluth where the visibility was much, much poorer and the cloud cover was much, much thicker. So why did the NTSB -- whom I assume could find a reasonably skilled pilot -- feel the need to land miles and miles away from the scene of the crash? And how did the Minneapolis FBI manage to arrive on the scene within 2 hours of the crash, while the entire NTSB team was delayed for at least another six hours -- most waited until the next day to make their initial visit to the crash site -- with the evidence burning the entire time?

[scarletwoman]

13. The area was NOT under a "severe icing alert"

There was an advisory out for moderate icing conditions. The NTSB report has already dismissed icing as the cause of the crash.

I live in Minnesota, about 50 miles (as the crow flies) from the crash site. I was a volunteer for Wellstone's campaign. I read EVERY single piece of news coverage from the first reports of the crash (as well watching every bit of the local TV coverage at the crash site on that day, including witness interviews that were later edited out), to the final NTSB report.

Local pilots generally agreed that the weather conditions that morning were nothing out of the ordinary for aviating in Minnesota -- certainly not "severe".

I'm not trying to promote any "theories" here, I just want to make sure that the actual facts are not distorted.

sw

[dpbrown]

9. Plot point - Pentagon electrical system fry-beam

Some helpful operative zapped the plane from below, shorting out cellphones in the area at the time they beamed the plane. The FBI was already in route to the crash scene while Wellstone's plane was still in the air.

Not that you have to believe the theories, but there they are.

[stickdog]

10. Here is the final NTSB report

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2003/AAR0303.pdf

According the NTSB, both pilots were literally asleep at the stick.

I mean, we've got two pilots and they don't notice that the CDI needle isn't anywhere near centered for almost two minutes, and fully pegged for the last minute or so.

In addition, they don't notice themselves slowing more than 60 mph below the intended approach speed over a time period of less than a minute, they don't notice the stall horn, and they make no discernible attempt to recover from their stall.

This level of pilot incompetence is truly legendary. As in urban legend-ary. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it happens extremely seldomly to experienced commercial pilots flying extremely safe planes unless there are severe weather, aircraft or pilot incapacitation issues.

I've yet to see a believable narrative explaining how two pilots managed to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle well over a minute, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around.

What could possibly explain an experienced pilot (with a second pilot, no less) exhibiting such a completely egregious level of incompetence during a routine instrument approach? Remember, there was no evidence of icing and no other planes reported any icing conditions at the approach altitude in the entire state of MN that day. Also note that the visibility was 4 miles, there was no wind, there were only the barest traces of precipitation and low (400-500 ft) cloud cover was described by other pilots -- including the pilot who went out looking for the crashed plane within minutes -- as light fog.

IMHO, pilot incapacitation is a more likely explanation than pilot incompetence. In any case, any putative incompetence bordered on incapacitation.

[genius]

14. He crashed and parts of the plane were there one minute and gone the next

Raytheon wanted to supervise the investigation. There was a resolution in OC calling for an independent investigation. Loretta Sanchez's office opposed it because Raytheon was one of her contributors and her staff was afraid she would lose contributions.