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Lock and Load with Live Ammunition: Is this what future protesters,etc.

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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:20 PM
Original message
Lock and Load with Live Ammunition: Is this what future protesters,etc.
are likely to face if we fail should fail to win the next Presidential election ? It seems to me to be a very definite possibility considering what former Republican Presidents and Governors have said and done. Go to for a prelude of things to come, should we fail, come November. Go to: < http://www.aztlan.net/kentstate2.htm >. ...Oscar
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. That is fucking disgusting....
I love our military.
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I also love our military and find myself getting flamed for defending them
in the forums at times. This in no way excuses these men, for what they did to their fellow Americans that tragic day. Remember the Oath: To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States Against all Enemies, Foreign and Domestic we all took upon entering the Armed Forces Of the United States. These young people were killed and maimed for exercising their Constitutional rights. ...Oscar
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I have no problem with the troops, as it is...
I have a big problem with fascistic attitude of most militaries throughout history. Just like the Generals at Nuremburg argued that they were 'just following orders' so could the despotic humans who committed the atrocities at Kent State. The Kent State thing kind of reminds me of the incident in Washington under Hoover where tanks rolled against American citizens, neigh, American veterans, who just wanted the pay the government promised them.

Such is the reason I consider myself a Libertarian Socialist. My (at 20 I admit) vague understanding of general history has led me to believe all governments turn sour.
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I agree with most of what you said, you are right about what happened
under Hoover, though the officer in charge of those men attacking those WWI vets was either MacArthur or Patton, I forget. They were both a couple of arrogant assholes in my opinion who thought little if any about the men that would die unnecessarily for their mistakes. Hoover did not authorize deadly force if I am correct and whoever it was should have been court Marshalled for something. ...Oscar
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It was primarily MacArthur and Patton was also involved, as I said they
were both a couple of assholes in my opinion. ....Oscar
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Won't be the military next time.
It'll be those shaved-head blokes in the armour and black nylon with the big yellow "POLICE" on the front of their helmets.

They're trained to kill people who Look Like Them, unlike our Military.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. It very well could be...but...
All the future protestors need to do is just smile and be civil...

</snark>

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flewellyn Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Soo...
Protestors should start carrying weapons to the demonstrations. If everyone in a crowd of 10 thousand people is packing, I doubt even riot police would be inclined to start something.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Yep
That's why the Founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amendment into the Constitution. They knew there would be days like this.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Demonstrations are not family outings...
Protestors should start carrying weapons to the demonstrations. If everyone in a crowd of 10 thousand people is packing, I doubt even riot police would be inclined to start something.

There very well might be already at least one person "packing" at any protest... far as I could ever tell, no one screens the protesters.

I do think we have to be aware of the fact that we are always in danger when we protest. Some of those Freepers aren't wrapped too well. If Bush gets another four years, we're almost certain to face violence from them and from the powers that be. I'd like to think that our own neighbors who happen to be in the police and/or the military wouldn't start shooting if those of us who are protesting stay calm and non-violent. Still, there are ways of pushing people to the breaking point, the law enforcement folks are trained to use force first and ask questions later, there are always infiltrators present whose sole purpose is to start trouble to make protesters seem like hooligans, and the right wing media certainly isn't going to defy anyone just to tell the truth.

That doesn't mean that protesters need to act as badly as the ones they protest, but it does mean that we need to be aware of reality and be prepared to get hurt or even die. Hopefully, that won't happen, but know what is at risk and maybe the children and elders need to stay home. Recall that someone died at Kent State, and I don't think that person was even actually protesting.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ominous reminder
Sick. Gunned down in the prime of life.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. yes
remember they shot union people thru out history,the Tulsa "race war",the gassing and deaths of black panthers and student demonstrators,the Chicago police riot,the assault on the Philadelphia row house, free speech zones,world trade police riots, the list goes on and on.. they will always use any means necessary to suppress those who seek justice
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. 1937. Memorial Day Massacre
Ten striking steel workers killed

http://www.kentlaw.edu/ilhs/memorial.htm
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Times have changed,...
,...life is different,...and history NEVER duplicates itself in precise terms.

Yeah, I know there is a thingy, a fear about inevitable replication.

I don't buy it.

Humanity HAS come a long way notwithstanding we do have a long way to go,...an uncertain future before us all. BUT, we are getting better, all the time.
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oh Really,How so and in what way ? Any specific examples you would care to
note ? With all that is going on throughout the middle East, and Africa, and Eastern Europe I see little evidence of improvement. ...Oscar
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oscar, people see what they want to see.
I am too,...uninvested in your position to invest anything other than my own personal observations and life experiences.

I have been involved with an interfaith community that excludes no one from their fold,...except the hell-bent extremists.

That community DID NOT EXIST a mere 25 years ago.

This board DID NOT EXIST a mere 25 years ago.

Life is a process,...we have come a long way,...we have a long way to go. It requires a common human will to carry us into the future.
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Just Me, I have no doubt you are a truly good person. I wish you well
Edited on Sun Jun-06-04 11:48 PM by DEMVET-USMC
now and always and your words give me some hope, ragarding the future of mankind and this beautiful planet we live on, ...Oscar
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. You're more than a tad bit green when it comes to this subject....
...aren't you?

Do a little reading about how police and national guard units have acted in the past, and then come back so we can talk about what you learned.
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DEMVET-USMC Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Please,if you have time,click through the photos,its well worth it. Did
Edited on Sun Jun-06-04 11:29 PM by DEMVET-USMC
these Guarsmen recieve Combat Infantry Badges for these actions, does anyone out there know ? ...Oscar
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. Sandy Jeffery Allison and William The Four Murdered Students
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 03:42 AM by seemslikeadream








Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are gunning us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.

Crosby Stills Nash Young - Four Dead In Ohio Lyrics


Thanks for everything Oscar














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weedthesmoke Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. Did the buck stop on Jonhson's desk for this?
Or did he pass it on down the chain?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. A walk down memory lane
Projects SHAMROCK MINARET RESISTANCE MERRIMAC


While the NSA was busy snooping on US citizens through Projects SHAMROCK and MINARET, the CIA got into the domestic spying act by initiating Operation CHAOS. President Lyndon Johnson authorized the creation of the CIA's Domestic Operations Division (DOD), whose purpose was to "exercise centralized responsibility for direction, support, and coordination of clandestine operations activities within the United States...."

When Johnson ordered CIA Director John McCone to use the DOD to analyze the growing college student protests of the Administration's policy towards Vietnam, two new units were set up to target anti-war protestors and organizations: Project RESISTANCE, which worked with college administrators, campus security and local police to identify anti-war activists and political dissidents; and Project MERRIMAC, which monitored any demonstrations being conducted in the Washington D.C. area. The CIA then began monitoring student activists and infiltrating anti-war organizations by working with local police departments to pull off burglaries, illegal entries (black bag jobs), interrogations and electronic surveillance.

Morton Halperin, Jerry Berman, et. al., The Lawless State (Penguin: New York, 1976) p. 146..


After President Nixon came to office in 1969, all of these domestic surveillance activities were consolidated into Operation CHAOS. After the revelation of two former CIA agents' involvement in the Watergate break-in, the publication of an article about CHAOS in the New York Times
Seymour Hersh, "Huge CIA Operation Reported in U.S. Against Antiwar Forces," New York Times (December 22, 1974), p. 1.


and the growing concern about distancing itself from illegal domestic spying activities, the CIA shut down Operation CHAOS. But during the life of the project, the Church Committee and the Commission on CIA Activities Within the United States (the Rockefeller Commission) revealed that the CIA had compiled files on over 13,000 individuals, including 7,000 US citizens and 1,000 domestic organizations.

The Lawless State, p. 153; US Commission on CIA Activites within the United States, Report to the President (US Government Printing Office: Washington DC, 1975), p. 144n3.


Cruel Science The Long Shadow of CIA Torture Research


By ALFRED W. McCOY

From 1950 to 1962, the CIA led massive, secret research into coercion and consciousness that reached a billion dollars at peak. After experiments with hallucinogenic drugs, electric shocks, and sensory deprivation, this CIA research produced a new method of torture that was psychological, not physical--best described as "no touch torture."

The CIA's discovery of psychological torture was a counter-intuitive break-through--indeed, the first real revolution in this cruel science since the 17th century. In its modern application, the physical approach required interrogators to inflict pain, usually by crude beatings that often produced heightened resistance or unreliable information. Under the CIA's new psychological paradigm, however, interrogators used two essential methods, disorientation and self-inflicted pain, to make victims feel responsible for their own suffering.

In the CIA's first stage, interrogators employ simple, non-violent techniques to disorient the subject. To induce temporal confusion, interrogators use hooding or sleep deprivation. To intensify disorientation, interrogators often escalate to attacks on personal identity by sexual humiliation.

Once the subject is disoriented, interrogators move on to a second stage with simple, self-inflicted discomfort such as standing for hours with arms extended. In this phase, the idea is to make victims feel responsible for their own pain and thus induce them to alleviate it by capitulating to the interrogator's power.


more
http://www.counterpunch.org/mccoy05292004.html



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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
21. Chilling
Don't think for a second that rent a thugs (not necessarilly the police officers), but private security agencies, won't try to provoke a violent confrontation in NYC this year for the RNC.
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