I want to pray for Bush

[redqueen]

I know, I know... but I don't mean I want to pray that he wins the election or anything insanely harmful like that.

I just mean that I feel sorry for him. Yes, he's an overprivileged brat. And yes, he has done evil, evil things. But he's just a man, and looking at photos of him, looking so lost... I just can't help thinking that maybe he's being manipulated by people a lot smarter and a lot more evil than he is.

So I'm praying for George W. Bush. I pray that Jesus really does touch his heart and soul, and that he realizes that the horrible things that are being done by his administration are an abomination and that he should work to stop them.

Heck, for all we know, he *does* know better, but is being threatened by others to keep his mouth shut... maybe the discussion of Tenet and alleged threats against his family has got me thinking about this. We all know Bush is no evil genius. What if he's doing all this against his will? What if his discombobulated appearance lately is due to more than just his tanking poll numbers?

He did say in the past that he didn't want to run for president -- too many skeletons in his closet...

And either way, the evil need our prayers for their reform, so...

Lord, please help President Bush see the evil of his ways, and help him to better act as your servant -- helping the poor, spreading your message of love and forgiveness, and otherwise improving the world through good works.

O8)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. I want to pray for Bush

to be executed in an Iraqi prison style.

[Az]

2. Light houses help more than prayer does - Benjamin Franklin

You wanna help George? Do something. Seriously. :)

[redqueen]

3. Actually prayer has been shown to be effective

but they didn't have those studies then, so I can't blame Ben.

And what could I possibly do? I mean... I could send him a letter saying this, but he woudn't even see it... so... what else can I do to help him really know the Lord he seems to love so much?

[DoktorGreg]

12. Actually that study has been discredited

As no one has been able to replicate it.

Here is an example of the piss poor 'journalism' that suggests prayer works

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html


And here is the science on the issue

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/159/19/2273

[redqueen]

17. From the science link you offered:

"Results Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.

Conclusions Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care."

Was this the study that was supposed to discredit it?

[Az]

22. Problem is

Its not replicatable. It was a one pass study. The reason you need replicatability in science is that statistically you can have anomalies. So you have to repeat the study to make sure it wasn't a fluke. If its not replicatable then its not science.

Now based on the claims of prayer one would expect 100% success. But instead they are sifting for miniscule statistics? Trust in lighthouses. More people will live.

[redqueen]

25. Shoot... I'm not saying do away with anything but prayer

but it can't hurt. :)

[Az]

32. Actually it can

There are individuals so swept up in the notion of paranormal powers such as prayer and faith healing that they decline modern methods. They seek out those that promise them miracles. Who wouldn't want a miracle. And they pay. They pay in money, hope, and their lives.

I do not wish to discard your beliefs or hopes based on prayer. But it troubles me when I see conartists using such disredited studies to support their crimes. Selling false hope when real action is needed is one of my major peeves. I understand this is not the context you meant this discussion in. But these ideas are enablers of these cons.

[redqueen]

34. My gramma had an answer for those types

"The Lord helps those who help themselves."

I know what you're saying. Those that stop thinking normally and start behaving irrationally put themselves and others in danger.

[DoktorGreg]

24. yes, that was the discredited study.

Read the articles on the links below the study.

[redqueen]

26. Thanks

Will do. :)

[Az]

20. Actually

Those studies have been found to be flawed. The primary case given is the Randolph Byrd study and it has proven to be nonreplicatable. Its methods have also been questioned as well.

The best that can be said about prayer is that it is a positive selfesteem generator for some. But external effects are undemonstrated.

[redqueen]

23. Oops

Answered above... nevermind. :)

[Az]

28. Write it off? No.

But it's not evidence for. Science remains open to any explanation. It simply suggests which explanations carry more weight than others. Sometimes we have enough evidence to conclude that some suggestion is so without merit that it is ridiculous to consider it. But if the truth comes along and drops evidence in our laps showing it to be true science must follow. Its the rules after all.

[redqueen]

30. Gotcha

So while the jury's still out... I guess I'll go ahead and indulge my lapsed Catholic soul. :)

[Bandit]

4. Pray for America not Bush* ~ He has shown he doesn't deserve any prayers

:shrug:

[redqueen]

7. Well of course I'm doing that :-)

I pray every night for everyone, but certain people need more help than others. I think Bush qualifies.

IMO everyone deserves prayers. We are all connected, you know. :)

[ewagner]

5. Hardest thing in the world

...is to be able to pray for your enemies..... I know.

You have the right idea though.

[redqueen]

11. Isnt' it?

I know we're supposed to... and honestly I usually don't... I just pray for this whole planet and figure they're included in that group. I wonder if that's cheating... if we should really be specifically praying *for our enemies*.

[ewagner]

16. Yep, that's cheating

When I was very, very heavy into the Episcopal Church, the Rector, whom I admire to this day, knew I was being destroyed politically by an opponent. He told me the only way to defeat this evil shithead, (his words) was to pray for him. I almost choked the first two or three times but it became easy. I'm not a mystical type or anything, but the enemy completely self-destructed before my very eyes. I've always wondered.

[redqueen]

18. Thanks

Now I know, so I won't go back to that anymore.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. You feel sorry for him? No,

come on! Be serious. Look at what he has put our country through!

No way do I feel sorry for that murdering asshole. He's an evil bastard.

[redqueen]

9. Well, to be honest

the feeling sorry part only started because I wondered if he too was just a tool. He really does look helpless in some of the pictures I've seen in some sig files. I don't seek these out but when I see them it is striking how childlike he looks. Not innocent, but immature.

*sigh*

Either way... love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you.

Unlike many on the other side of the aisle, I don't ignore that part of the 'handbook'. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. redqueen, I admit

you are a much, much, much better person than I.

[redqueen]

21. Oh, no I'm not!

Bite your tongue!

I have stronger intestinal fortitude, is all. ;)

Truly, I think it's just the realization that we really *are* all connected.

Something from the movie Adaptation has stuck with me ... kind of along those lines:

"We're all one thing, Lieutenant. That's what I've come
to realize. Like cells in a body. 'Cept we can't see
the body. The way fish can't see the ocean. And so we
envy each other. Hurt each other. Hate each other.
How silly is that? A heart cell hating a lung cell."


edited to remove erroneous cut&paste

[lastknowngood]

8. I can't forgive the asshole. however the Dali Lama says when

you meet someone who is doing something evil and awful to get compassion for him and thus save your on sole you must ask your self this question. What terrible event or great hurt in their lives have caused the twist in their soles that they can do such a thing? There must be a great pain in them they cannot accept. I'm not there yet I'm still mad as hell.

[redqueen]

10. I understand completely

I feel like that most times about those supporting him. I just got the idea that maybe he's more of a pawn than we think. There's more than a good chance that theory's complete crap, though... so :shrug:

[readmylips]

15. that's the only saving bush can do...save his sole....

the sole of his shoes...as for his spiritual soul. May the devil hook his red hot fork up his ass.

[spanone]

13. He feels no sorrow for himself. Save it. Pray for the world instead.

[redqueen]

27. Already doing that.

Thanks, got that part covered. :)

[mark11727]

19. First let's vote * out of office

before he f*cks up anything else...

We can think about forgiveness and prayer after.

[redqueen]

29. Well, until I can vote him out

I'll be praying he focuses more on mercy than vengeance, more on humility than boldness, more on peace than war. :)

[playahata1]

38. That will not happen.

No matter how much you pray for *, ain't a damn thing gonna change with him.

You are a better woman that I. I just can't see any capacity for change in the arrogant scumbag. Some people are just not worth saving.

[redqueen]

41. Probably not

But on the off chance that he is just some tool that's been conned into going along with the nefarious plans of others, I think I'll go ahead and pray for him... heck - if nothing else it might just be to help me not harbor hateful feelings. (Thanks JellyBean1!)

[Jose Diablo]

31. Prayer may not do much for Bush*

but it sure helps me with MY hate toward him. You know, its not good to hate, its unhealthy.

[redqueen]

35. You're so right

It's not healthy at all. I find myself fighting those feelings more and more often. Especially watching or listening to or reading the news!

[Jose Diablo]

36. I think thats the underlaying message in prayer for the enemy

anger and hate are spiritually AND mentally harmful.

[redqueen]

39. Oooh I never thought of it that way

Nice!

[Malva Zebrina]

33. If someone is praying for Bush, and really wants him to go to heaven

intead of a hell, which by praying that he will be forgiven, does that mean that all of those who are the "enemy" the Muslims, will go to hell?

Will Saddam go to hell?

[redqueen]

37. Not sure how to answer that

I never thought prayer was just to get people forgiven so they can get into heaven. But I guess if someone thinks that's what it's for, then yeah, they probably think that, yeah.

Reminds me of a joke:

Guy passes away, goes to the pearly gates. He sees St. Peter...

St. Peter says "Since you're new around here, let me show you around. You're agnostic, so you should be comfortable anywhere

"See this room here? This is where the Catholics gather. You'll get along great with them. Lots of drinking and merriment... all kinds of rituals and fellowship... you can have a great time!

"And these are the Muslims. Quieter and more austere, but very thoughtful people. Feel free to indtroduce yourself if you like.

"Okay, be careful on this one... try not to let anyone see you through the window. This is where the Southern Baptists are, they think they're the only ones here!"

[hippiegranny]

40. my most radical left wing friend

has been praying for bush every single night since he (or those who are really in charge) stole the presidency. at first i said "huh? whaddareya, crazy?" but i see the logic now.

[redqueen]

42. *whew!*

Thanks! Nice to know I'm not the only one... I was starting to think I was losing it!

:hi:

[justjones]

43. I understand your sympathy.....

I sometimes feel the same way, however, I remind myself that Bush* is unlikely to reciprocate the same sympathy under any circumstances, at least with any sincerity. Remember Faye-Tucker, the death row inmate....yes, she was a convicted murderer and some would argue that she should certainly have been executed, but by mocking her he displayed the same fundamental lack of respect for humanity as a murderer. It showed he wasn't more than a hop, skip, and a jump away of committing murder himself....everything that is happening now is the perfect example of how the chickens come home to roost and to lay their eggs.

Yes, be sympathetic, but remember Bush isn't sympathetic. If he felt the kind of sympathy that mattered, war truly would have been the last resort only after all other means of diplomacy were exhausted. We all know for a fact now that it is not the case.

If we continue to have sympathy for these evil bastards, they will just twist our sympathy into something they can use to stick it to us time and time again.

I'm not saying we must turn into the same evil bastards, I'm just saying there has to be a medium in between.

[vetwife]

44. I am praying for truth revealed That should take care of Bush !

Thats why I started pray for kerry site..to counterattack the pray for Bush thing ! The right winged does not have the authority to speak on behalf of God. Personally I would like Bush and God to talk FACE TO FACE !

http://groups.msn.com/PrayforKerry/

[redqueen]

46. You started that site?

Cool beans! Thanks!

[vetwife]

48. Guilty Redqueen....My little part in Taking it Back !

Thanks....

[redqueen]

45. I hear ya

I feel sorry for him (a little, when I see those pics where he looks so lost), but I am in no way, shape, or form going to go soft in my efforts to oust him in Nov. I also don't intend to stop talking smack about him to anyone who'll listen.

:evilgrin:

I think I should point out here that I don't feel sorry for him at all for the $hitstorm currently building around his maladministration. That's, as you said, just the chickens coming home to roost. I would never in a million years pray that he doesn't get the trial and sentencing in a criminal court that he deserves. Same for his gang of thugs.

But while I wait and hope for him to be turned over to the ICC, I'll keep on praying that what happened to Karla happens to him. :)

[against all enemies]

47. I want you to STOP praying for B*sh.