Question for our resident Biblical experts

[Sandpiper]

I've heard it posited that in the Old Testament, Jonathan, son of King Saul, and David had a homosexual relationship. Is there any consensus in the scholarly community as to whether or not this was the case?

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I don't know ,but

I bet there would be something on this in "Stealing Jesus" or "The Good Book". (See the links for these titles on my website:
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm )

[displacedtexan]

2. lots of cited speculation...

http://tinyurl.com/3cd8f

[wuushew]

3. How about a better question

is there anything that proves that Sodom and Gamorah were cities of "sexual" sin?

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Yes, but that's not what had God so freaked out

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.'" (Ezekiel 16:49)

[forgethell]

13. Here's the full chapter.

This was a rant about the Israelites


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Ezekiel 16


An Allegory of Unfaithful Jerusalem

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices 3 and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Jerusalem: Your ancestry and birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. 5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.
6 " 'Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" <1> 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. <2> Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.
8 " 'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD , and you became mine.
9 " 'I bathed <3> you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. 10 I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. 11 I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, 12 and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. 14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD .
15 " 'But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a prostitute. You lavished your favors on anyone who passed by and your beauty became his. <4> 16 You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution. Such things should not happen, nor should they ever occur. 17 You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them. 18 And you took your embroidered clothes to put on them, and you offered my oil and incense before them. 19 Also the food I provided for you-the fine flour, olive oil and honey I gave you to eat-you offered as fragrant incense before them. That is what happened, declares the Sovereign LORD .
20 " 'And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them <5> to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.
23 " 'Woe! Woe to you, declares the Sovereign LORD . In addition to all your other wickedness, 24 you built a mound for yourself and made a lofty shrine in every public square. 25 At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty, offering your body with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by. 26 You engaged in prostitution with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and provoked me to anger with your increasing promiscuity. 27 So I stretched out my hand against you and reduced your territory; I gave you over to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were shocked by your lewd conduct. 28 You engaged in prostitution with the Assyrians too, because you were insatiable; and even after that, you still were not satisfied. 29 Then you increased your promiscuity to include Babylonia, <6> a land of merchants, but even with this you were not satisfied.
30 " 'How weak-willed you are, declares the Sovereign LORD , when you do all these things, acting like a brazen prostitute! 31 When you built your mounds at the head of every street and made your lofty shrines in every public square, you were unlike a prostitute, because you scorned payment.
32 " 'You adulterous wife! You prefer strangers to your own husband! 33 Every prostitute receives a fee, but you give gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from everywhere for your illicit favors. 34 So in your prostitution you are the opposite of others; no one runs after you for your favors. You are the very opposite, for you give payment and none is given to you.
35 " 'Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD ! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth <7> and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children's blood, 37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. 38 I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. 39 Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare. 40 They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and hack you to pieces with their swords. 41 They will burn down your houses and inflict punishment on you in the sight of many women. I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer pay your lovers. 42 Then my wrath against you will subside and my jealous anger will turn away from you; I will be calm and no longer angry.
43 " 'Because you did not remember the days of your youth but enraged me with all these things, I will surely bring down on your head what you have done, declares the Sovereign LORD . Did you not add lewdness to all your other detestable practices?
44 " 'Everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: "Like mother, like daughter." 45 You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom. 47 You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.
49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.
53 " 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom <8> and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines-all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the LORD .
59 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD . 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD .' "

[forgethell]

10. Well, there's Genesis 19

Although, perhaps it is rape rather than homosexuality that God destroyed the city for. From the NIV
Genesis 19


Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

[yellowcanine]

12. Jesus said the sin of Sodom was inhospitality and rejecting God's

messenger, for what it is worth. Not that most fundies really pay any attention to what Jesus said. They certainly ignore most of the Sermon on the Mount.

[supernova]

15. Yes, it's the inhospitality

which cheeses God off the most. Curiously, it's NOT the libertine ways of the inhabitants.

Since this is a desert culture, sending people off to their next uncertain destination without food and water for them and their animals means almost certain death.

[Q3JR4]

4. There's also the

Ruth and Naomi story in the bible that has been pointed to as a lesbian relationship.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. I'm not sure that it was.. seemed more mother-daughter to me

[CBHagman]

20. Please!

Ruth and Naomi's tale is a story of devotion, but between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, as well as conversion to a new faith (Ruth was not Jewish, as I recall). Not all forms of love involve a sexual component. There are already numerous examples of sexual behavior in the Bible without adding to the text!

[eridani]

25. Historical context of Ruth and Naomi

The Book of Ruth is historical fiction, based on the known historical fact that King David had part Moabite ancestry. (If he took non-combatants into the land of Moab when he was under attack, that had to mean he had blood relations there where they could be safely parked. That's how clan-structured societies work.) Probably based to some extent on oral traditions written down a few hundred years after the fact as well.

The book was actually written after the return from Bablyonian exile, when Nehemiah and others were strenuously promoting the policy of discarding foreign wives. The Book of Ruth is an attack on this policy, whose message was essentially "It's a good thing our ancestors weren't such bigoted assholes. If they had been, King David would never have been born. So there!"

[Alerter_]

5. no

[FranMonet]

8. let the bible speak for itself you decide

And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul . . . And Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul."

And immediately afterward, Jonathan disrobed before David:

1 Samuel 20:30
"Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?

2 Samuel 1:26
"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

[Kaysera]

16. Context is good ...

1 Samuel 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.

3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.



1 Samuel 20:25 And the king sat upon his seat, as at other times, even upon a seat by the wall: and Jonathan arose, and Abner sat by Saul's side, and David's place was empty.

26 Nevertheless Saul spake not any thing that day: for he thought, Something hath befallen him, he is not clean; surely he is not clean.

27 And it came to pass on the morrow, which was the second day of the month, that David's place was empty: and Saul said unto Jonathan his son, Wherefore cometh not the son of Jesse to meat, neither yesterday, nor to day?

28 And Jonathan answered Saul, David earnestly asked leave of me to go to Bethlehem:

29 And he said, Let me go, I pray thee; for our family hath a sacrifice in the city; and my brother, he hath commanded me to be there: and now, if I have found favour in thine eyes, let me get away, I pray thee, and see my brethren. Therefore he cometh not unto the king's table.

30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?

31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.

32 And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain? what hath he done?

33 And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.

34 So Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did eat no meat the second day of the month: for he was grieved for David, because his father had done him shame.

[DarbyUSMC]

9. David and Bathsheba had an affair which

God chastized him for, but David was still a man after God's own heart. The implication, I believe is from human speculation in more recent times. For instance now we are suspicious if two women or two men go on vacation together. I never found any scripture supporting the homosexual angle as God had made it clear with the destruction of the two cities of sodomites that he didn't make man for man. He made woman for man. He would have chastized David just as he did for displeasing him with Bathsheba.

The verses from 2 Samuel chapter 1 may have led to the rumor about David and Jonathan who David loved like a brother.


2Sa 1:22 From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the mighty, the bow of Jonathan turned not back, and the sword of Saul returned not empty.


2Sa 1:23 Saul and Jonathan lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.


2Sa 1:24 Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you in scarlet, with delights, who put on ornaments of gold upon your apparel.


2Sa 1:25 How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, slain in thine high places.


2Sa 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.


2Sa 1:27 How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!

[forgethell]

27. Still, you've got to remember

that David repented of his sin. And God did punish him with the death of Bathsheba's child by David.

[Roaming]

28. I sincerely doubt it describes a homosexual relationship, for several

reasons:

(1) David was very concerned with keeping the laws of Torah; the Bible describes him as a man after his own heart. That law included a ban on homosexual behavior (see Deuteronomy).

(2) David broke God's laws, and when he did, he repented. There is no evidence he repented of any homosexual behavior.

(3) The Bible was never shy in describing sexual acts. If someone had sex with someone else, it pretty much came right out and said it. That isn't the case here.

(4) Jonathan was probably married and he fathered at least one child.

The Bible frequently describes love between men and women of the same sex, but we in our modern age take that to mean sexual love. I don't think that's what it was implying.

[yellowcanine]

11. Some also speculate that the Apostle Paul was gay as well. Who really

knows and does it actually matter? Only to the fundies, who would have no problem denying it even if there were any evidence, which there isn't.

[forgethell]

14. There is a lot of interpretation

of the Bible, just like the Constitution, to advance a political agenda. I don't read it that way, myself, but I can see how some people might. I wasn't a confidante of either man, and neither are the other people who have interpretaions, so we'll never really know.

[MooPie]

17. You are absolutely correct

Translations are definitely used to advance a political/theological agenda. To see the disparity in translation, go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibg.htm
One must also remember that even the ancient transcriptions were subject to human scribe error and one transposition or omitted letter could completely change the context. Translation can be a very subjective thing as well.

[Merlin]

18. It's important to understand that the bible is legend, not history.

The Old Testament is a compilation of fables and stories handed down by retelling for centuries before ever being written down.

So what it says specifically tells us nothing except the prejudices and agendas of the various authors. The first 5 books ("The Book of Moses" or the Penteteuch) were written and revised by at least 5 different authors over a 500 year period. One of them added countless phrazes to the original to make it look like god favored the tribe of Levi as the priestly class among the Jews.

The New Testament is no better. None of the authors ever met Jesus. The earliest of the gospels was written 40 years after the crucifixion. Paul, who wrote the earliest of all, never met Jesus, though he did meet Peter and James, Jesus brother, with whom he had a terrible falling out. The first of his letters was not written until about 20 years after the crucifixion.

Bottom line in all of this: The "Bible" is not the Word of God. Many of those who treat it as such cause irreparable harm to humanity-- witness the US fundies and the Israeli Zionists and the Islamic fundies. Without their fallacious notion of the divine source of the bible, we may actually have peace on earth.

[MooPie]

19. Thank you.

Well put.

[Stuckinthebush]

21. Bingo

Good post, Merlin.

[The Magistrate]

31. Well Said, Mr. Merlin!

Well said indeed, my friend!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[noonwitch]

22. I Samuel 18:1-4, I Samuel 19:1-3

And it came to pass, when he (the prophet Samuel, speaking for God)had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garment, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.


And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David.
But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret place, and hide thyself:
And I will go out and stand beside my father in the field where thou art, and I will commune with my father of thee; and what I see, that I will tell thee.
KJV-parenthesis mine.

I guess it's all a matter of how you look at it. The scripture could be referring to a deep friendship between David and Jonathan, or it could mean something more. Saul's reaction could be one of those Marquise of Queensbury things (not the boxing rules, the other thing he's famous for-persecuting Oscar Wilde for having a gay relationship with the Marquis' son)even if there was nothing between the young men but friendship due to Saul's fear of the appearance of the relationship being a romantic one by the fact that the two spent so much time together. It could be jealousy on Saul's part that David is more loved by his son than he is, which is the standard christian interpretation of the story. Also, I did quote the King James version which who knows who all was involved in the work of translating the scriptures and adding poetical touches in english. Someone could have deliberately used the "soul knitting" analogy as an inside joke.

[eridani]

23. Imagine you are King Saul

You notice that your most popular general is hanging out a lot with a very popular heir apparent. If you are a normally prudent ruler of a tribal society, the first thought that occurs to you must inevitably be "Those upstarts are plotting a coup!"

[Alerter_]

26. but the gay angle is more scandalous

your interpretation is too realistic.

[eridani]

24. The other mention of Sodom in the Old Testament

EZEKIEL 16, 49
Behold, this was the sin of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

This would seem to strengthen the hand of the 'hospitality' argument.

[Roaming]

29. If you go to Jewish thought on Sodom and Gomorrah about

2000 years ago, it's clear that it was about sex: Jude 7 specifically states that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was sexual immorality (see also 2 Peter 2:6-10). Paul, also a Jew, condemned homosexuality. So at least in the minds of these Jewish men, who had full access to the text of Genesis and Ezekiel discussed here, it was about sexual sin.

[eridani]

32. 3000 years ago, though, it was not

At least according to Ezekiel, who was historically closer to the event that Paul.

[Servo300]

30. Not a chance.

Both were married. An analogy was made to reinforce how close their friendship was. Nothing sexual was implied.

[greekspeak]

33. You can interpret the Bible to say anything you want it to.

I am a scholar of religion, and study the Bible as a main focus. Someday I am going to have my PhD in this field. Sure, you can read the David and Jonathan account and come out with them in love with each other. Paraphrasing, it says David loved Jonathan with a love stronger than he felt for women. One can say Ruth and Naomi were more than just good pals or mother and daughter in law. Or one can conveniently turn to the Levitical "abomination" of having sex with another man as with a woman. Or one can turn to Sodom and Gomorrah for a bleak outlook on same sex relations. Or one can say that Sodom and Gomorrah's sin was inhospitality. One can turn to Paul in Romans or I Corinthians or to Timothy and see there a Jewish/early Christian take on same sex relations. For that matter, one can condemn any music they dislike by pointing to the biblical admonition to "make a joyful sound unto the lord" and saying only the music they like is joyful. Do not laugh. My aunt and uncle do this.

The Bible seems both to support and deride same sex relationships. It all boils down to interpretation. My suggestion, which may fall on deaf ears as it comes from an atheist "egghead" revisionist historian and biblical scholar, is to read the whole Bible and to see what it says to you. Take the positives and the negatives you get from it, and mull them over. No telling how you will interpret it.