WOW Federal judge permanently bans Bush administration from . . .

[wndycty]

. . .enforcing the partial birth abortion ban. I just saw it on WGN NEWS anybody have more info?

UPDATED WITH LINK:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040601/latu068_1.html

[Cocoa]

1. I seem to remember this was expected;

the debate in Congress was informed by the expectation the law would be struck down, as I recall. So the law was in a way just divisive gesture.

[Warpy]

4. Bush was pandering

to the religious wack jobs who want to make sure women who have sex don't go unpunished.

The law is medically ignorant. That is why it should be struck down.

[CitizenRob]

178. Is it to punish?

I don't think the law is meant to punish anybody... especially if all the Republicans voting for it knew it would be struck down. It was just politics; same as always. The Republicans were securing their crazy cloud king voters for the next election.

[MissB]

2. I'd love to see the link when someone finds it! (nt)

[wndycty]

3. Here you go

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040601/latu068_1.html

[MissB]

6. Thank you! (nt)

[outinforce]

9. You Provided A Link Which Is

a press release from Planned Parenthood of America.

It is hardly objective in this case.

[wndycty]

10. So Planned Parenthood is lying about the ruling?

Is that what you are trying to say?

[outinforce]

12. Sort Of

Press releasees -- especially press releases from advocay groups -- and most especially press releases about the outcome of court cases from parties to a court case -- are seldom statements of fact, the way news stories are.

Do you think that a press release from a group opposed to this type of abortion would be accurate?

[wndycty]

14. Since you are questioning the integrity of the press release. . .

Here a news report.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/8810532.htm

[outinforce]

27. Thanks .... and You Do See the Difference, right?

The link you provided is to a news story.

The news story actually goes into some detail about the procedure -- something PPFA did not include in its press release.

The news article also provides a statement from the Justice Department -- again something the PPFA did not do.

[wndycty]

67. Well not really. . .

. . .while one goes more in depth than the other the still say the same thing.

[Tansy_Gold]

13. Planned Parenthood is no more or less objective . . .

. . . .than anyone else who has stated a position on the issue of reproductive choice.

Many anti-choice organizations issue press releases when the courts go either for or against them. Why would you assume that because the organization takes one stance that its news release is biased?

Methinks someone doth protest toooooo much.



Tansy Gold, who is PRO-life, PRO-child, PRO-woman, and PRO -choice

[outinforce]

19. Of Course

Of course PPFA is no more and no less objective than anyone else who has stated a position on the issue of reporductive choice.

PPFA does a a huge financial interest in ensuring that certain types of reproductive choices are made -- an interest that other groups opposed to certain types of abortions do not have -- but let's just leave that aside.

I would hardly ever rely on any group with a strong advocacy position on a given issue to be an objective source on that issue,

[Justice]

5. Ban is Not Nationwide

Only in area where judge is located - jurisdiction - SF.

[wndycty]

7. Could it set a precedent?

:kick:

[MissB]

8. It should have a cascading effect, though. (nt)

[Beetwasher]

11. Are You Sure?

I'm not so sure. It's a Federal judge ruling on a Federal ban. From the article:

"PPFA brought its suit on behalf of PPFA; Planned Parenthood Golden Gate (PPGG), the affiliate in San Francisco; and the physicians, staff and patients of Planned Parenthood affiliates nationwide."

[outinforce]

15. A Minor Correction

What you quoted was not so much from a news "article" as it was from a PPFA Press Release.

I'm sure PPFA would like to have folks think it is a nationwide ban, but I would consider the source.

[wndycty]

16. Here is a link from a news article.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/8810532.htm

[Beetwasher]

18. It IS NATIONWIDE

SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge Tuesday blocked the Bush administration from enforcing the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act against Planned Parenthood Federation of America clinics and their doctors, who perform roughly half the nation's abortions.

--snip--

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5112876

This ruling protects all of PPFA from the ban.

[outinforce]

20. It Is, BUT

It apparently applies only to abortionists who work for PPFA.

[Beetwasher]

21. Doesn't Matter, It's Precedent. This Effectively Makes it Unenforceable

on ANYONE.

Equal protection and all that. It can't ONLY apply to PPFA, that also would be unconstitutional.

Abortionists? They're DOCTORS!

[outinforce]

23. Why Do YOu Object To My Choice?

My.

Why do you object to my choice of words here?

Of course they are doctors. Doctors who perform abortions.

And aren't abortions just such wonderful things? A true expression of a person's freedom to choose.

So why would anyone object to being called an abortionist?

I would think that any doctor who is willing to perform such a wonderful procedure -- and especially those who are able to punch a forcepts into the base of a baby's skull in order to kill it -- would wear the title of abortion with all the honor and diginity it deserves.

[Beetwasher]

26. Because it's Propoganda

And you damn well know it.

Your bias is showing, but you already knew that.

Keep nitpicking though. Since you'll never be faced with that choice and your body can never be involved, I guess it's easy for you to want to make that decision for everyone?

Pathetic.

[Mandate My Ass]

28. Am I hearing you say...

he's engaging in propaganda? I thought that's what I heard you say that but I'm just making sure. :evilgrin:

[Beetwasher]

29. Isn't It Obvious?

n/t

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

33. Am I Hearing YOU Say.....?

Am I hearing you say that you beetwasher is not making his/her points clearly enough?

Thanks for asking the question you did.

It is always better to ask than to assume, in my view.

[sangh0]

81. It's always propoganda

when someone insists that you use a certain specific term, such as "abortionists"

[outinforce]

96. Who Is Insisting?

You say that it is always propoganda when someone insists that you use a specific term.

Who here is insisting on the use of any term at all?

It seems to me as though the most that could be said is that some are insisting that a certain word (abortionist) not be used.

[Beetwasher]

99. Use It All You Want

It's still propoganda.

Let's see what a dictionary has to say about it:

a·bor·tion·ist < ə báwrsh’nist > (plural a·bor·tion·ists)

noun

an offensive term for somebody who performs abortions, especially suggesting illegality of the procedure

Hmm, that's interesting....

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=Abortionist

[outinforce]

102. "Offensive"??

I have no clue as to why encarta would feel the need to describe abortionist as being "offensive".

I can only suppose that they have bought into the notion that performing abortions is something those at or near the bottom of their medical school classes do.

Why would anyone be offended at being identified with performing such a wonderful procedure as abortions?

I just don't get it.

And, thanks, beetwasher. I will use it. And I hope you do, too.

[sangh0]

105. Here's why

Because those DOCTORS do more than perform abortions.

Why would anyone be offended at being identified with performing such a wonderful procedure as abortions?

For the same reason my internist does not want to be called a "hemmorroidist"

[outinforce]

112. They Do?

Ever hear of George Tiller?

He's a doctor.

His entire practice is providing abortions.

Why would he object to being called an abortionist?

Is your internist's objection to being called a "hemmorroidist" based on her/his objection to being identified with the treatment of hemorhoids (damn, I wish I knew how to spell that word!), or is it based on the fact the s/he does more than treat that condition?

[sangh0]

117. Yes, they do

and even Dr Tiller is required BY LAW to provide whatever services his patient requires (provided he is qualified to provide them) in order to prevent her from dying. ALL doctors have this obligation, so naming them by one of the procedures the perform is inappropriate, which is why no one but the loony anti-abortionists call them that.

[outinforce]

130. Ever Hear Of

Psychiatrists?

They are doctors, too.

Are they also obliged to provide whatever service sthe patient requires in order to prevent him/her from dying?

Should we call psychiatrists simply doctors?

Or how about internists? Is it wrong to call them that?

What is so wrong with calling someone who speciailzies in (or whose primary practice is) abortion and abortionist?

And what, to your way of thinking, is the difference between a "loony anti-abortionist", a plain anti-abortionist, and a pro-abortionist?

[sangh0]

136. yes

Are they also obliged to provide whatever service sthe patient requires in order to prevent him/her from dying?

Yes, provided the doctor is qualified to perform the service/procedure

Should we call psychiatrists simply doctors?

No

Or how about internists? Is it wrong to call them that?

Call them what?

What is so wrong with calling someone who speciailzies in (or whose primary practice is) abortion and abortionist?

Asked and answered

And what, to your way of thinking, is the difference between a "loony anti-abortionist", a plain anti-abortionist, and a pro-abortionist?

Work on underastanding the answers you've already recieved. Why should I answer more when you can't understand what you've been told already?

[Beetwasher]

110. Well, Considering that Only

someone who is disingenous would make the argument ad absurdum that abortions are wonderful, since I've never seen nor heard of anyone who is pro-choice ever make that argument, nor would they ever, it's no wonder you don't "get it".

Keep peddling your silly nonsense though! It certainly is your perogative.

Forced abortions for everyone at 8 1/2 months! Yay! :eyes:

[outinforce]

113. Might I Suggest That

you get out more.

You say that you have never seen nor heard of anyone who is pro-choice make the argument that abortions are wonderful.

Some folks (other than me) have said so right here on DU.

on edit -- I think there is even one person who posted something on this thread that says "abortion rawwwwwks".

[Beetwasher]

115. I Suppose You Can Back That Assertion Up?

Nahhh, who needs to do something crazy like that? I question your veracity, back it up Chester, unless wild ass assertions are your thing...Oh, and quotes in CONTEXT please and sarcasm doesn't count.

Like this:

Forced abortions for everyone at 8 /12 months! Yay! :eyes:

[outinforce]

127. See Post #65.

This thread.

And I do wish you would stop calling me Chester.

It is a fine name -- but it is not mine.

[sangh0]

128. One poster, that might be you?

Is that all you have, or do you consider it OK to stereotype on the basis one poster?

[Beetwasher]

189. Ahh, But You'll Always Be Chester To Me! (Or Maybe Sherlock?)

Why does that bother you? Is there something wrong w/ a Chester?

Hey Sherlock/Chester, I said sarcastic posts don't count. Try again, or do you admit that you're full of shit?

[sangh0]

194. To use one of his arguments

"I have no problem..." if you call him Chester

[outinforce]

202. To Use One of Your Arguments

This is not about you.

[outinforce]

201. Nothing Wrong With Chester.

I think I said that.

It is not my name, though.

I have the courtesy to call you by your name.

So please don't call me anything other than outinforce.

What makes you think valdimir was being sarcastic? I don't think he was.

[Beetwasher]

208. I Dunno, Chester (FULL DISCLOSURE INSIDE)

Maybe because it was obvious?

Full disclosure: I happen to know quite a bit about the subject at hand, that is, attitudes on abortion in a social context. I work in the field of Reproductive Health Research. I work with some of the worlds foremost scientific minds in the field of RH research. I'm familiar w/ their work, including sociological and psychological research on the topic of abortion. And in my experience with the myriad of scientists, Dr's and patients that I have encountered, and in the literature I have read, (real honest to goodness scientific research papers published in peer reviewed journals and everything! Imagine that!), I have never heard nor seen abortion referenced as a "wonderful" thing.

Put up or shut up or admit you're full of shit.

[outinforce]

213. Gee.

and I was all set to provide you with examples of what I was talking about earlier.

But you have chosen to call me something other than my name.

After I asked you not to.

After I told you that I had the courtesy not to call you anything other than the name you have here.

After I asked for the same courtesy in return.

Your lack of common, decent courtesy will be met by silence.

[Name removed]

215. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

104. And he wants us to believe that it wasn't meant to be derogatory

His obsession with words (ex see how he centers his argument on my use of the word "insist" in order to avoid responding to the point) make it clear that he knows this.

[outinforce]

116. You Must Really Really Like Me

You keep following me around.

You have concluded that I have an "obsession with words".

Some might say that you are obsessed with me.

I'm ever so flattered.

But I am concerned about something you said.

You said that I avoid responding to your point.

I read and re-read your words (it's this little obsession I happen to have), and I just can't find the point you were making -- the one you think I avoided.

[sangh0]

119. The point is

that "abortionist" is a derogatory phrase. No other medical specialty identifies it's specialists by referring to them with a name based on one specific procedure they perform.

[outinforce]

131. Please

"No other medical specialty identifies it's specialists by referring to them with a name based on one specific procedure they perform."

Cardiologists?

Oncologists?

Plastic Surgeons?

Laser Surgeons?

[sangh0]

138. GO please yourself

Cardiologists?

"Cardiology" is not a procedure

Oncologists?

Oncology is not a procedure

Plastic Surgeons?

Plastic Surgury is not a procedure

Laser Surgeons?

Laser Surgury is not a procedure.

[outinforce]

146. They Are All Pracitces

The doctors who specialize in heart sugery are cardiologists.

Docs who specialize in cancer are oncologists.

Docs who specialize in abortion are abortionists.

What is the problem here?

[sangh0]

149. Abortion is not a specialty

Even you said, they're a medical procedure. Several actually.

[outinforce]

153. Are You Suggesting That

there are people who perform abortions but do not specialize in them?

If so, then I agree that they should not be identified as abortionists.

But I would submit that a doctor whose primary practice is abortion has chosen to specialize in abortions -- and is an abortionist.

Rather like a doctor who chooses to perform the many procedures that are plastic surgery is called a plastic surgeon.

[sangh0]

154. NO, I'm not

Since your premise is off, I won't bother addressing the points that are based on your premise.

But there is no specialty called "abortion". No doctor specializes in abortions

Rather like a doctor who chooses to perform the many procedures that are plastic surgery is called a plastic surgeon.

That person would be called "a felon". It's against the law for a doctor to perform medical procedures they haven't qualified for. Doctors don't get to choose which procedures they can perform. They have to be licensed

[outinforce]

158. Huh?

A "felon"?

WHat are you talking about?

[sangh0]

159. Yes, a "felon"

WHat are you talking about?

Something you must know very little about - how doctors get to specialize.

[outinforce]

165. So?

A doctor who chooses to specialize in plastic surgery would be a felon?

Why?

[AZCat]

164. I think this is incorrect

Your first two terms describe the doctor's area of specialization. I don't think 'abortionist' is a specialization - I think the term used would be gynecologist.

I'm not a doctor so I might be wrong, but I don't think doctors are labelled after their procedures. After all, who ever heard of a 'balloon angioplasticist'?

[sangh0]

167. You are right

and the only argument outinforce has given in support of his practice of labeling doctors according to ONE medical procedure is that HE would have no problem naming them by a medical procedure

[AZCat]

173. I know - but I'm frustrated

I figured this would be something the AMA would regulate - but I haven't been able to find a list of recognized specialities.

I know there are extra boards and different continuing ed. requirements for the specialities, but where they are on the internet, I don't know.

[LandOLincoln]

236. Doctors (MDs) who perform abortions are called

ob/gyns.

BTW, there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion."

[outinforce]

30. Propoganda?

What are you talking about?

And why do you wish to accuse me of wanting to make a decision for everyone else??

I think I am agreeing with all who are pro-choice, and perhaps even with some who are pro-abortion.

Don't we all agree that abortion is WONDERFUL? I mean, where would we be if it weren't available?

So why should anyone in his or her right mind ever object to being called an abortionist?

Think of the wonderful service they provide. They should not shy away from that term -- they should embrace it.

Unless they have some problem with it.

[Beetwasher]

34. Uh Huh

As I said, pathetic and transparent.

I for one am quite satisfied w/ this verdict that upholds the rights of individuals to make informed decisions on their reproductive health. It's obvious how you feel about it.

I know it sucks for people who have disturbed and twisted world views in which they need to control everyone elses actions and force their morality on others and intrude upon an individuals most personal and private decisions. Oh well, too bad for them sanity has won this round.

[outinforce]

37. Wow

What a wonderful little personal attack.

Saying, I think, that I have a "disturbed and twisted world view"

And also saying, I think, that I have a need to control everyone else's actions.

And even going so far as to suggest, I think, that I want to force my morality on others.

And not even stopping there, but implying pretty strongly, I think that I want to intrude upon an individual's most personal and private decisions.

And I think I detect a charge that I am not even sane.

And you are able to detect all of this from just a few posts I have made to this thread.

Amazing.

Wow.

[Beetwasher]

40. Hmmm

"I know it sucks for people who have disturbed and twisted world views in which they need to control everyone elses actions and force their morality on others and intrude upon an individuals most personal and private decisions. Oh well, too bad for them sanity has won this round"

Well, if you put yourself in that category of people who this sucks for, nothing I can do about it.

[outinforce]

49. OK

I take from this post that you did not mean to include me in any of the statements I found offensive.

Sorry for so badly misinterpreting your post.

I know it sucks for people who have a disturbed and twisted world view which they need to attack other people and make sure everyione thinks the same way they do and to question the sanity of anyone who disagrees with them.

[Beetwasher]

52. Yeah, So?

Am I supposed to be offended? :shrug:

What sucks for those people? This ruling wouldn't effect people who thought that way, whomever they may be. I know you'd rather go off on a tangent instead of discussing the topic of this thread, since it's so much easier than facing reality.

So why don't you just come right out and say how you really feel about this ruling and abortion instead of beating around the bush with pedantic tripe?

[outinforce]

55. Hate To Split Hairs Here....

Why no. You should not be offended. Why ever would you think that? I guess you must have thought that I was including you in my statement about what sucks for some people. Your problem. Not mine.

And I do so hate splitting hairs, but if you want to lay blame for someone going off on a tangent, might I suggest that your objection to my use of a perfectly valid word took us to tangentland?

And I think I have made my position on abortion quite clear, haven't I?

Haven't I said that it is just WONDERFUL?

Haven't I said that it is the best expression of a person's choice?

Haven't I even said that doctors who perform abortions -- and especially doctors who are able to see the feet and torso of a small baby (or fetus) wiggling with life and then jab a forcepts into the baby's skull to kill it -- should be honored as people who perform a wonderful wonderful thing. They should not shy away from being called abortionist, because abortion is a wonderful thing.

What more can I say here?

[Beetwasher]

57. Obviously

You can say nothing of value. Why you continue is beyond me, but please do. If painting gruesome images gets you off, go for it.

Pathetic.

[outinforce]

59. "Gruesome Images"??

What are you talking about now?

[Beetwasher]

61. You Seem To Revel in Repeating Stuff Like This:

"...and especially doctors who are able to see the feet and torso of a small baby (or fetus) wiggling with life and then jab a forcepts into the baby's skull to kill it -- "

Whatever gets you off.

[outinforce]

64. You Consider That Gruesome?

Is just a medical procedure, isn't it?

Is no more "gruesome" than the removal of tonsils or an appendix.

I don't "get off" on this.

Is there something else, though that you thought was a gruesome image?

[Beetwasher]

71. Yeah, So

Most surgical procedures are gruesome. Ever see a triple bypass? Pretty gruesome. Maybe you don't think so, but then again, gore seems to be your thing. You seem to get off on it seeing as how you like to repeat gory rhetoric. But that's just my opinion of course. Feel free to continue.

[outinforce]

79. I Described A Medical Procedure

and then you said, "If painting gruesome images gets you off, go for it."

I have no idea why you would think that gore seem to be "my thing".

And I am truly at a loss to know why you would think that I "get off on it seeing as how you like to repeat gory rhetoric"

I don't know what "gory rhetoric" you're even talking about.

[Beetwasher]

82. Sure

Whatever you say Chester. I'm not the one going around detailing abortion procedures every chance I get. Just seems to me you enjoy it or maybe you think it should have some effect on the weight of your specious non-arguments/propoganda?

Why don't you go watch some open heart surgery and then tell us all about it in all it's gory detail? Maybe people will be less inclined to have heart surgery then? :shrug:

[sangh0]

83. Medical procedures ARE gruesome

but outinforce already knows that. Everybody knows that.

not to those non-Christians who object to it. You're blaming the messenger.

No, that's not disingenous. I don't even know why outinforce raised the issue of disingenous

[Occulus]

87. hoo-wah...

if this:

" and especially doctors who are able to see the feet and torso of a small baby (or fetus) wiggling with life and then jab a forcepts into the baby's skull to kill it "

is your idea of describing a medical procedure, it appears you're intentionally using crude lay languange to describe it.... almost as if you actually wanted to paint an unnecessarily gruesome image for the rest of us.

edit: hmm. "Wriggling with life". An interesting choice of words.

[outinforce]

92. I'm Sorry

I guess I should have used the word "fetus" when I said that "then jab a forcepts into the fetus' skull to kill it".

I guess the thought of killing a baby is raqther gruesome, isn't it?

I'll try to be nmore careful, lest I offend anyone sensibilities when I describe this particular medical procedure.

After all, all that is "killed" is just a body part -- like an appendix or a pair of tonsils.

As to your comment on "wiggling with life", is there something about that term that bothers you?

[Beetwasher]

94. You're The One Saying Abortions Are Wonderful

and the one reveling in the gory details. Have fun w/ that! Whatever floats your boat! Forced abortions for everyone at 8 1/2 months! Yay! :eyes:

[LandOLincoln]

239. There is no such thing as "partial birth abortion."

And I'm going to keep repeating this until you pull your head out of your ass and quit spouting wingnut propaganda.

[Occulus]

84. just as one can protest too much,

thus implicating themselves, so too can one also praise too much, and for the same reason.

I got the same impression, but didn't say anything until you appeared to be "protesting too much," as in, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Tone it down a bit. Using a superlative to describe abortions is a bit silly. Makes pro-choice persons look... well, rabid.

[sangh0]

86. *YOU* hate splitting hairs

Then why make such a big fuss over whether it was a "press release" or a "news story" without any reference to whether the info was accurate?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1700342#1700615

[AgadorSparticus]

93. abortions are WONDERFUL????!!?!! WTF????

c'mooooooooon! who are you kdding?

[outinforce]

100. You Mean They Are Not?

I think that most medical procedures are wonderful.

The removal of an appendix is wonderful.

The removal of tonsils is a wonderful procedure.

Triple by-pass heart surgery is wonderful, too!

Why would anyone say that abortions are not wonderful??

Why would anyone object to the use of the word "abortionist" to describe the wonderful people who perform this wonderful medical procedure??

[sangh0]

107. Why would anyone object to the use of the word "abortionist" ...?

For the same reason my internist doesn't want to be called "a hemorrhoidist"

[outinforce]

118. Is It That They Have A Problem

with being identified as a person who treats hemmorhoids?

[sangh0]

120. no

but you already knew that

[AgadorSparticus]

140. No One Wants To Glorify Abortions--Doctors Included.

It is called sensitivity, respect, and discretion for their patients. Again, abortions are not something people are happy or proud of. They are hard choices that people have to make and no one wants to be reminded at every turn.

[AgadorSparticus]

122. rofl. sangho, you are just too funny sometimes. nt

[sangh0]

123. I try

thanks for the appreciation

[outinforce]

132. I Agree!

I roll on the floor laughing at some of her posts!

[Vladimir]

133. ROTFL n/t

[WillyT]

137. Or One Who Provides Vasectomies, A "Ball Buster", Or...

"Nut Cutter"

Or one who performs Colonoscopies an "Anal Explorer".

BTW - Regular abortions are really called, Dilatation and Curettage (D & C), not "Abortion".

And "Partial Birth Abortions are really, medically, called Intact Dilation and Extraction (ID & X)

But then... you knew that already...

DIDN'T YOU!!!

:grr::nuke::mad:

:puke:

Pro-Life Dems make me ill.

[sangh0]

150. Albert Einstein = a calculator

.

[sangh0]

152. super-computer = MP3 player

.

[Mandate My Ass]

155. A "Nut Cutter"

too funny. My husband's cousin had that done. I don't
know why he did something like that and denied his wife
the wonderful experience of having an abortion. I guess
he's just selfish.

The gestational gestapo really piss me off too, WillyT. :hi:

[RetroLounge]

211. "The gestational gestapo "

LOL! THanks for a new term I can use.

RL

[Mandate My Ass]

217. Glad you like it but use with extreme caution

I actually picked it up from another DUer.

Someone here routinely hits the alert button
when this term is used. Hits it like a crazed,
coke-addicted monkey trying to get his fix of
chemically-induced self-righteous indignation.


This person uses very inflammatory language himself
but although he can dish it out he certainly can't
take it.

[outinforce]

156. It Would Be Wrong

to call a doctor who specializes in vasectomies a "nut cutter" or a "ball buster".

That is not what a vasectomy is.

I would not have a problem calling a doctor who specializes in vasectomies a "vasectomist", though.

Interesting that you choose to point out the medical terms for abortion.

DO you suppose those doctors who offer abortions will go out and change the listing of their ads in the Yellow Pages so that they are not listed in the incorrect "abortions" section?

[sangh0]

160. "I would not have a problem...."

Breaking news!!!

This isn't about you.

[outinforce]

166. More Breaking News!

I think I can express my preferences and opinions here.

You got a problem with THAT?

[sangh0]

171. Even more Breaking News

Your preferences and opinions are not arguments or evidence. They are "your preferences" and "your opinions".

[outinforce]

177. This Just In!

In a stunning display of profound insight into the obvious, our correspondent dispatches this:

"Your preferences and opinions are not arguments or evidence. They are "your preferences" and "your opinions"."

[WillyT]

170. Actually... Urologists And Nephrologists Perform Vasectomies, But...

That wasn't your point... was it???

BTW - Just what exactly IS your point???

Expectorate it out, dude!!!

:wtf:

[sangh0]

172. But, but, but

is we call them "Urologists" is must be because they perform "urologectomies"

[outinforce]

187. He Expectorates!

SPIT!

There.

You do see my point, don't you?

dude.

[sangh0]

196. Yes, we see your point

You can raise your head back up now.

[RetroLounge]

210. Pro-Life Dems make me ill.

I wouldn't worry, they're not really Dems...

In my book...

RL

[outinforce]

223. There Are Many In Congress

that might question your assertin that they are "not really Dems".

[AgadorSparticus]

121. no. and not many would pro choice advocates would agree with that.

whether you believe that women should have the right to abort pregnancies or not, you should not describe these traumatic events as "wonderful". it is cruel and ignorant.

no woman who has undergone abortions will tell you what a "wonderful" event it was in their lives. nor would they consider it a routine event like getting their teeth cleaned or getting their tonsils taken out. it is not something people are proud of.

life is full of traumas. and things don't always go as we plan for them. please do not add to the trauma of abortions with your inflammatory use of words or argumentation.

[sangh0]

125. My prediction

outinforce will now to get you to call yourself "anti-abortion"

ANd kudos to you for pointing out his his words of praise for abortion have consequences for those who have had to actually make such a decision.

Take care

[outinforce]

139. Your Prediction

didn't come to pass.

I did ask, though, why people are not proud of having abortions.

They are just medical procedures that remove an unwanted body part, anren't they?

[sangh0]

142. No, they're not

No medical procedure is JUST a medical procedure. My rotator cuff surgery was not JUST a medical procedure; It was an event that required me to adopt a host of new ways of doing simple things like changing a light bulb. It was fix weeks of pain and not working. It was stress for my mom, who worries way too much. It was a lot of things, most of which I won't discuss with you

[outinforce]

151. Your Point?

What has rotator cuff surgery to do with abortion?

I would imagine that you have your rotator cuff surgery in a hospital.

Aren't most abortions done in out-patient type clinics?

Are you suggesting that an abortion requires a woman to adopt to a whole host of new ways of doing things?

Are you saying that women who have abortions will need to learn different ways of changing a light bulb?

WHat's your point?

[AgadorSparticus]

168. why are people not proud of abortions???

alright. i'll bite. they made mistakes? there are stigmas to being pregnant (ie 14 yrs old)? it is an emotional decision caught between a rock and a hard place? it is TRAUMATIC?? it is traumatic?

it is interesting that you don't address that abortions are hard choices and traumatic events for women. you wrongly take out the emotional factor and make it sound like you and other pro lifers like you are the only ones to value life. it is, of course, flat out wrong. not everyone views life through the same lens. hence, the beauty of Choice.

[outinforce]

175. "Pro-Lifer"

Why do assume that I am a pro-lifer?

If you are saying that people are not proud of making a mistake, then that I understand.

But the mistake, I think you are saying, is not the abortion.

Rather, I think I hear you saying that the mistake that is traumatizing is becoming pregnant at age 14.

It would seem to me, though, that, unless there is something else about an abortion itself, there is no need not to feel proud about having an abortion.

After all, a 14-year-old who is unable to handle the pressure of parenthood might say, "Yes, I had an abortion. I made a mistake and became pregnant, but at least I was mature enough to understand the need for me to take care of my mistake".

[sangh0]

180. You're an anti-lifer?

It would seem to me, though, that, unless there is something else about an abortion itself, there is no need not to feel proud about having an abortion.

"seems to you"??? Based on what - your many years of male homosexuality?

[outinforce]

190. Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!!!!

Finally, someone who understands me!

[AgadorSparticus]

242. nevermind.

[outinforce]

135. "Not Proud"??!!

This truly surprises me.

"It is not something people are proud of".

Are you suggesting that women are ashamed of having abortions?

I thought that only rabidly anti-choice folks made such an argument.

Or that only those who want to take away a woman's right to choose would ever suggest that an abortion was (or should be) considered "shameful" or something not to be proud of.

Why would having an abortion be more traumatic than having their tonsils out?

[sangh0]

144. In my experience, fundies also resort to opposites

If someone is "not proud" then they must be "ashamed". There's no possibility for a measured response somewhere in between pride and shame.

[AgadorSparticus]

181. your broad brush is annoying. not all women have abortions for

the same reasons. nor do they react to abortions in the same way. and like sangho said, just because you are not ashamed of something doesn't mean you wish to have it broadcasted all over the universe. why? because it's No One's Business But Your Own. I'm not ashamed of my income either. but i sure as hell am not going to broadcast it to everyone.

[sangh0]

183. I am deeply ashamed of my torn rotator cuff surgery

That's why I won't discuss it with outinforce.

[outinforce]

195. You Won't Discuss It?

I think you already did.

In a post earlier.

Why did you even bring it up to me, if you did not want to discuss it?

It is a good thing that you do not want to discuss it, though, because frankly, I can think of few things more boring that discussing rotator cuff surgery.

[sangh0]

197. Shoulder surgery is deeply shameful

And I won't tell you the littlest detail about it. And I defnitely won't tell you about the Vicodon, and Percodan they loaded me up with, either.

[outinforce]

200. You're Doing It, you know

you're providing me details.

TMI.

[AZCat]

191. I also submit...

That the social stigma attached to abortions is enough to keep most people quiet, even absent any personal guilt associated with the procedure.

The scarlett 'A' isn't for 'adultery' anymore - remember the recent article on Teresa Kerry's ALMOST abortion? You'd think she was a member of the SLA...

[outinforce]

198. Social Stigma?

31 years after Roe v. Wade there is still a social stigma attached to having had an abortion?

I guess most people must not realize the beauty of choice.

[AZCat]

203. I don't know why there is still a social stigma

I don't know why there is such a negative response to someone having an abortion. I don't really understand your proposed rationale (not realizing the beauty of choice).

I would think that - like any legal decision related to one's 'personal property' - what a person decides to do is her own business. Why we don't all operate that way mystifies me.

[AgadorSparticus]

235. i think at the center of debate of abortion is exactly when life starts

to some it appears that zygotes=babies. or even cells equals babies. so my definition of life differs. if you think that a zygote =baby and abortion=murder, then don't have one. but for others who don't subscribe to that thinking, it is nice to have the choice. hence, the beauty of choice. everyone could be happy if they'd just mind their own damn business. oooh, what a novel idea.


that doesn't even touch on the pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. i don't even want to go there.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

220. You Leap To Conclusions

and you call me names.

That 's a really great way to start off a discussion with me.

I am surprised that you would even want to talk to a "hateful hypocrite".

And how dare you suggest that I wish to judge any woman's reproductive choices!

How dare you leap to such a totally wrong conclusion that I am inclined to sit in judgment about your reproductive system and what awful choices it might spawn!

Please articulate for me exactly what I do believe regarding abortion, women's reproductive rights, and anything else you care to expound upon.

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

214. 69 years after the formation of AA and the idea of

Alcoholism as a disease, there is still a stigma attached.

Logic, Meet Leap...

:eyes:

RL

[AgadorSparticus]

238. how logical is it to have racism and bigotry in the year 2004?

but it exists in full force.

[AgadorSparticus]

234. yes, there are subcultures here in the US that would not look

too kindly to abortions--or teenage pregnancies. not everyone lives in a progressive american culture here in the US. and not every "progressive" is as progressive as they claim to be. and no they would not appreciate the beauty of choice. i knew upper middle class kids whose parents are part of an elaborate social system that would not look kindly to teenage pregnancies or a resultant abortion. <gasp> the shame of it all! :eyes: but, right or wrong, it is there.

i guarantee you that had jenna and barbara bush were pregnant at 14, they would quickly be ushered to a private clinic to have it taken care of and never spoken of again. and then they would quickly be ushered to church to claim their "secondary virginity".

all i'm saying is that there are many situations out there. thank god there is a choice so that desperate girls don't have to resort to clothes hangers of the past.

[libcurious]

63. But

Isn't telling everyone that they have agree about abortion like you the same as telling people they have to diagree?

[Beetwasher]

66. Eh, What?

I'm not telling anyone they have to agree w/ me. They can do whatever they want w/ their bodies and have whatever opinions they want. If they think abortion is wrong, they don't have to have one.

[libcurious]

68. Thanks

Your previous posts make sense now.

[Vladimir]

65. Abortion RAAAWKS!

there, happy now?

n.b. props to Mr. Sagle for that line. fuck knows I never thought I'd feel a need to use it...

[AgadorSparticus]

240. no. choice "raaawks". and saves lives. nt

[sendero]

89. Don't like abortions?

Don't have one.

[outinforce]

106. Everyone LOVES Abortions

or they should.

THey are so wonderful.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would ever not like an abortion.

[sangh0]

109. And everyone LOVES amputations

using that logic.

oif, everyone knows you're not telling the truth here.

[slinkerwink]

42. who cares about the mothers dying in their 8th or 9th month due to

a hydrocephalic baby? Forget the lives of the mothers!

[outinforce]

44. That Is Indeed Cruel

The situation you describe is indeed one of unspeakable cruelty.

And a situation which the law (the was struck down) allowed an exception for.

[AZCat]

56. Yes - but that's not what is constitutionally required...

I didn't know this before reading the injunction (see my post below), but the SCOTUS decision in Stenberg requires a health exemption also.

From the Federal Court Decision:

E. Conclusions of Law: A Health Exception is Constitutionally Required
Based on the evidence before this court, and the court's determination that Congress' ultimate finding that partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of the mother is not entitled to deference, the court finds that the Act's life exception is constitutionally inadequate.
As noted, the Supreme Court was clear in Stenberg that a health exception is required "here substantial medical authority supports the proposition that banning a particular abortion procedure could endanger women's health." 530 U.S. at 938. Under those circumstances, the Stenberg Court held that "Casey requires the statute to include a health exception when the procedure is 'necessary, in appropriate medical judgement, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother." Id.
Here, the evidence establishes that the Act would ban procedures performed prior to 24 weeks Imp, which is generally considered previability. However, based on the Supreme Court's holding in Stenberg, the necessity of a health exception does not depend on whether the 24 week perior is considered pre- or postviability. Id. at 931. Accordingly, to the extent that there is any dispute regarding fetal viability in accordance with the evidence before this court, the court's conclusion that a health exception is required does not depend on whether the procedures at issue are performed pre- or postviability.
<snip>

It goes on for quite a bit, but I had to type this (not copy) because I can't figure out how to select text in Adobe properly. Interesting reading, though.

[outinforce]

60. I Thought That We Were Talking

about woen who were dying in their 8th and 9th months.

But I also think that the law that was struck down contained a health exception.

[AZCat]

70. I just know what the Decision says...

I must admit it seems a bit like legal hairsplitting, but the SCOTUS in the Nebraska decision a couple of years ago (Stenberg) decided that any law regulating abortion must provide exceptions both the health and the life of the mother. The Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 2003 only provides an exception for the life of the mother.

And yes - this case is all about second trimester abortions, but I thought it was an interesting bit of information anyway. It seems like the easiest of the three unconstitutionalities to overcome. I would imagine that Congress will try to pass a revised Act next year that works around these issues.

[slinkerwink]

75. this law did NOT allow an exception

[LandOLincoln]

241. An "exception for?????" That and similar situations are the

ONLY times the Dilation and Extration procedure (ludicrously misnamed "Partial birth abortion purely for propoganda purposes) is ever done.

And it is never elective. Never.

[Mandate My Ass]

74. For the same reason you oppose

the use of the term gestational gestapo. It's a wonderful term and quite accurate as well.

[outinforce]

85. You Can Use That Term

I don't really care, Monica_L, what term you want to use.

I advance my ideas and thoughts and questions here.

I do not call other people here on DU names.

I certainly do not imply that they are Nazis, or that they are sympathetic to Nazism.

THAT is my objection to the term you applied to me.

You may think it is a wonderful term and quite accurate as well, but I view it, especially when you toss it my way, as little more than a personal attack that adds nothing to the discussion.

If you want to discuss with me, then by all means feel free to do so.

But if all you wish to do is to call names, then I think you know what the results will be.

[Mandate My Ass]

91. Why thank you, outinforce

Thank you so very, very much for granting your permission. I am in such a state of relief that you've granted me permission to use a term I love, that it defies description.

But I can't imagine what you mean by name calling and the term I allegedly applied to you. I said the gestational gestapo uses propaganda to promote their cause and force their pseudo morality down the throats of others. You've said right in this thread:

And I think I have made my position on abortion quite clear, haven't I?

Haven't I said that it is just WONDERFUL?

Haven't I said that it is the best expression of a person's choice?

So even if I was into name calling, which I am certainly not, why would I call someone in my camp a bad name? Oh my. I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that. So glad we've cleared up this little misunderstanding.

[outinforce]

95. I Think That Others Might Disagree

I think I will defer to the opinion of others as to whether you are into name calling or not. And I think I'll also defer to the opinions of those same people as to whether you applied that term to me or not.

I'm glad that you are so relieved. I am equally glad that you can now live with yourself.

[Tansy_Gold]

114. I think some people

may have forgotten where they put their sarcasm buttons.

I also think -- just my personal and oh so very humble opinion /sarcasm on and then off/ -- some people are so set in their ways that not only are they are not even open to discussion, they are not even open to the notion that the facts they put forth in support of their arguments are inaccurate. I'm not saying any facts ARE inaccurate, only that some people won't even entertain the notion that it's possible.

One of NARAL's and PPF's arguments in getting the PBA overturned was that there was no exception for the mother's HEALTH, and that the exception for the mother's LIFE could be argued based on some rare cases in which pregnancies that should have killed the mother ended up being viable and vice versa. "Health" then becomes a matter of judgment and individual choice (my bad /sarcasm on and then off/) that can be determined prior to death; the only proof that any given pregnancy is a true threat to the woman's life is after she's dead and someone says, "See, I told you so!"

The presumed sarcasm in some previous posts regarding how wonderful abortion is is a gross insult to all the women and girls who have faced the termination of a pregnancy with fear, grief, sadness, and loss. To presume that most or many women enter an abortion clinic or other health facility for the termination of a pregnancy with joy or glee is disgusting. While it is true that many women view the result of the process with a sense of relief, one should not -- again, in my personal and always humble opinion -- even begin to assume that the relief is due to shallow reasons. In many instances, it is relief at being able to better care for the already-born; it is relief at not bringing a severely disabled child into a world that doesn't care for it, doesn't provide adequate funding for its care, doesn't provide support for its parents; it is relief at not being forced to risk one's life for the sake of a blob of tissue.

Tansy Gold, who will probably hide this thread now and go take another blood pressure pill

[Warren DeMontague]

78. bitch, bitch, bitch

Don't like surgical abortion? Get out there and support Plan B contraception. Support RU-486. Get asshats like W. David Hager off of the FDA panel that is making medical decisions for millions of American women. Support comprehensive sex education that includes information about contraception. Support research into newer, more effective means of contraception. Most importantly, don't have an abortion if you don't like them.

But don't run around trying to criminalize the decisions women make with their bodies and their doctors.

This idea that there are all these women running around wanting to be pregnant for eight months so they can have a late term abortion at the last minute... is absurd. It's just not an accurate depiction of reality.

What is reality? That you have a bunch of fundamentalist maniacs who really want to ban all abortion and most forms of birth control, including the pill-- and that's how the HLA plank of the GOP platform is written-- and since they can't get there yet, they have come up with the "Partial Birth abortion" wedge to try to get their foot in the door using a medical procedure that is not terribly common.

[Bunny]

103. Well said.

Thanks. And welcome to DU! :hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

147. Thanks!

Glad to be here.

[slinkerwink]

108. bravo! excellent post! I bet you outinforce won't respond to this one....

[outinforce]

162. Uh-Oh

I responded.

[outinforce]

126. You Seem To Think of Abortion

as just one more form of birth control.

I may have mis-read your post, but it does rather seem to me that you are suggesting that since other types of birth control are ineffective or unavailable, abortion should be the ultimate form of birth control.

And I'm not sure whether you think I am a "fundamentalist maniac" who is running "around tryin to criminalize the decisions women make with their bodies and their doctors" or not.

I would suggest that a focus on improved contracpetion is important, but really only a part of the picture.

It is seldom in discussions such as this one that I ever hear anyone say that they really want to make abortion rare. If they do, it is usually a person who posts something similar to what you have posted -- better contraception will lead to fewer abortions (the implication there being, as I have suggested, that abortion is a form of birth control).

But there is, in my view, precious little focus on concern on making conditions favorable so that women who become pregnant and hwo may have concerns on their ability to bring another child into the world can nevertheless choose to give birth rather than abort.

It's almost as thought some are afraid to identify themselves as trying to make abortions rare -- almost as though they are really in favor of abortion.

[sangh0]

129. Ohhh, the ultimate insult

You Seem To Think of Abortion as just one more form of birth control

He just accused you of agreeing with the Freepers and anti-choicers.

[outinforce]

141. I Respect the Rules of DU

I would never want to suggest that someone is a Freeper.

I do not understand your point here.

[sangh0]

145. "accused of agreeing...."

I do not understand your point here.

It won't be the first, or the last time.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. Hmmm.

Well, look- first off, if you are "pro-life", by definiton, at least in terms of the political debate in the US, it generally means that you are "trying to criminalize the decisions women make with their bodies and their doctors". That's what the agenda of the so-called "pro-life" movement is.

It is perfectly reasonable, in my mind, to be personally against abortion and still not want to criminalize it. Last time I checked, that was what the debate was about. Not about whether it was "good", or "fun", but whether it should be against the law.

No matter what else you think about it, surgical abortion is just that- an invasive sort of surgery. I don't want to speak for anyone except myself, but I think it's a fairly universal widespread opinion in the pro-choice community, that in an ideal world, surgical abortions would be never or almost never necessary, because all pregnancies would be planned and healthy.

If you want to argue that the lives of lower income mothers should be made easier by, say, raising the minimum wage or adopting a single-payer health care system, you will get no argument from me.

I some reticence on the part of us pro-choicers to agree that abortions should be "rare" is because that line is used by right-wingers to try to "trap" us with a gotcha- "Aha! see, you admit that abortion is bad!" I admit that preventing pregnancy in the first place, or, failing that- terminating it through chemical, non-surgical means a la RU-486- is preferable. But if the only way you think you can make abortions more "rare" is to make them illegal, that's where you and I part ways.

[outinforce]

186. Put Your Mind At Rest

First of all, just as the "pro-choice" movement contains a wide variety of opinions on abortion, so does the "pro-life" movement.

Not all pro-life folks want to criminalize the decisiions women make with their bodies and their doctors. Any suggestion that all pro-life folks take that position is often an attempt to demonize pro-life folks by painting them on their extreme.

And, no, I do not want to make abortions rare by making them illegal.

The point I was trying to make about assisting any woman in a crisis pregnancy so that she does not have to have an abortion extends beyond low income women and way beyond raising the minimum wage or single payer health insurance.

Other people on thjis thread have said that people are not proud to have had an abortion -- that it is traumatic and even life-changing.

It seems to me that we, as a society, fail women when they feel that the only option available to them is an abortion. And so, what we should really be trying to do, to the extent that we want to make abortions rare, is to try to identify the reasons women have abortions, and then seek to address the specific reasons.

[sangh0]

192. Pro-lifers want to criminalize all abortions

which is why you don't see any "pro-life" organizations that support a woman's right to have an abortion.

[outinforce]

199. Pro-Choicers Want All Pregnancies To Be Aborted!

Oooooh.

This is so much fun!

I love playing this game.

You distort the views of someone else.

Then I do the same.

I don't want to play this game too long, though.

[Warren DeMontague]

233. Actually

Not all pro-life folks want to criminalize the decisiions women make with their bodies and their doctors. Any suggestion that all pro-life folks take that position is often an attempt to demonize pro-life folks by painting them on their extreme.

And, no, I do not want to make abortions rare by making them illegal.

Well, I hate to quibble, but then you're pro-choice. That's what the debate is. There may be a "range" of opinions on the pro-choice side, but one thing we're damn near united in is the opinion that the decision should be up to individual women, and not legislatures, AM radio pundits, or big-hair televangelists.

And I hate to break some more bad news to you... although I can't speak for everyone who calls themselves "pro-life", pro-life groups in the United States are universally in agreement that they want to criminalize abortion. That's what they do. Most of them, in fact all the major ones, go further than that- they support the so-called "Human Life Amendment" (as does the Republican Party platform) which would define life as beginning at fertilization- in effect, granting fertilized eggs rights under the 14th amendment. The HLA would not only criminalize abortion, it would also criminalize the birth control pill-- but that's okay with most major US "pro-life" organizations, like The American Life League, because most of them are opposed to all forms of contraception, as well.

It seems to me that we, as a society, fail women when they feel that the only option available to them is an abortion. And so, what we should really be trying to do, to the extent that we want to make abortions rare, is to try to identify the reasons women have abortions, and then seek to address the specific reasons.

I would agree with the first sentence if that was what I believed was happening. I think it's patronizing to overly second-guess the choices and decisions women make, however. I think the "you don't really want an abortion, you just think you do- we know better" attitude that I've seen some pro-lifers take is inherently offensive. I have no problem with folks who are concerned about low-income women who find themselves pregnant making additional support or resources available to them. I do have a problem with misleading pro-life "crisis pregnancy centers" tricking women into thinking they provide abortion services-- and then subjecting them to guilt trips, brainwashing, and religious proseltyzing to try to harangue them out of having an abortion.

[AgadorSparticus]

245. nevermind. i'm done with this thread.

[FizzFuzz]

221. beautifully stated!

Welcome!
Your sig image is pretty insulting to Bassett Hounds, though!! ;)

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

232. Thanks

...Just don't tell PETA. Let it be said I've never seen a dog that was that ugly OR dumb.

[LandOLincoln]

243. Wonderful post! I'd just add that your "not terribly common" is

a considerable understatement, IMO. I work with Ob/Gyns, and out of the several I've spoken to about the so-called Partial Birth Abortion issue, none had performed the procedure themselves, nor were they personally acquainted with anyone who had.

Welcome to the DU, by the way.

[RetroLounge]

206. abortionists???

Ooooh, someone just outed themselves...

RL

[davidinalameda]

224. not just SF but the 9th District

she's a FEDERAL judge not municipal

[diamond14]

17. bush* wants to KILL women and the people with disabilities (photos)

Choice is between a women, her family, her religion and her doctor......keep bush* out of our crotches....

[outinforce]

22. Abortion Kills

So Bush wants to kill women and the people with disablilities, huh?

I'm not to sure, but I think a number of the pre-born children who die as a matter of choice each day are females.

And I do think that there are a number of pre-born children who never get to be born because someone exercises a choice to kill pre-borns with disablities.

[sangh0]

25. So does shaving

and people die from a lack of stem-cells, thanks to Bush*.

[outinforce]

31. Shaving?

This is truly news to me.

How does it happen? Cut jugular? No stypic? Happens equally to men and women? Got a link?

And people die from a lack of underwater reasearch. Your point?

[zanana]

36. outinforce--Just my humble opinion, but...

Don't you realize that your ardent opposition to abortion could be seen as just another way to control what a woman does with her body? I really don't take a man's opinion of abortion half as seriously as a woman's, because it just can't happen to you. You have NO IDEA what it's like. And you can't pretend to.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

41. Of course he understands

You don't really think he doesn't know the difference between underwater research and stem-cell research, do you?

[outinforce]

43. "Ardent Opposition to Abortion"

I thought that a plank of our party's platform was that abortion should be safe. And Legal. And rare.

Doesn't that mean that, as a party, we are "opposed to abortion"?

If all we advocate as a party is "choice", then why would we not simply say that abortion should be safe and legal?

Why do we include "rare", unless we are opposed to abortion?

I am gay. And even though straigh people have NO IDEA what it is like to be gay, and even though they can never pretend to know" what it is like, I do take their opiniions of certain gay issuesseriously.

I don't know quite else how to say this, but your statement that you really do not take a man's opinionm on abortionm (and I would gfuess that what you really mean is the opinion of a man who is opposed to abortion) half as seriously as a woman's to be almost sexist.

[sangh0]

45. More typical word games

outinfoce would love to get you to say that your are opposed to abortion.

your statement that you really do not take a man's opinionm on abortionm (and I would gfuess that what you really mean is the opinion of a man who is opposed to abortion) half as seriously as a woman's to be almost sexist.

You wouldn't expect him to consider it a decision based on your experiences.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

46. It does NOT mean that.....

I am queer, deaf, and a woman. I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT OR MEN LIKE YOU OR FUNDIES TO DECIDE WHAT I SHOULD DO WITH MY BODY.

[outinforce]

53. So You Oppose

the government's ban on silicon breast implants?

You said, I think, that YOU DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT OR ANYONE ELSE (and I would guess you would include doctors who think that silicon might be dangerous) TO DEICDE WHAT YOU SHOULD DO WITH YOUR BODY.

Didn't you?

[sangh0]

72. More false equivalencies

outinforce knows that there's a relevant difference between silicone implants and abortion, but that won't stop him from equating the two.

DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT OR ANYONE ELSE (and I would guess you would include doctors who think that silicon might be dangerous) TO DEICDE WHAT YOU SHOULD DO WITH YOUR BODY.

The law banning implants doesnt' restrict what a patient can do. It prohibits doctors, not patients

[outinforce]

88. The Law

"The law banning implants doesnt' restrict what a patient can do. It prohibits doctors, not patients"

The law banning "partial birth abortions" also only prohibited doctors, not patients.

[sangh0]

111. so what?

.

[outinforce]

143. Here's What

you said:

" More false equivalencies. outinforce knows that there's a relevant difference between silicone implants and abortion, but that won't stop him from equating the two.

DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT OR ANYONE ELSE (and I would guess you would include doctors who think that silicon might be dangerous) TO DEICDE WHAT YOU SHOULD DO WITH YOUR BODY.

The law banning implants doesnt' restrict what a patient can do. It prohibits doctors, not patients."

False equivalencies?

I think not.

[sangh0]

148. I agree with you on one of your points

I think not.

I agree. You think "not"

[0007]

76. Very lame analogy! Simply put your freedom ends where her nose begins.

I understand how the women trapped in your male body feels, but you must give it up and do only what is right in the name of reality.

I wasn't gonna say anything until your last post, which I thought in my opinion was over the top.

[outinforce]

90. "The Women Trapped"

"The women trapped in my male body"?????

What in the world are you talking about????

I said I was gay. I do not feel like a woman (let alone several women) trapped in a male body.

I have no clue as to what your point is here.

[slinkerwink]

77. *shakes head* such a blatant attempt to make a straw man argument

[outinforce]

161. Please

do go on.

Explain the strawman argument to me.

[RetroLounge]

218. Yawn

:boring:

RL

[outinforce]

222. Si

gh

[LandOLincoln]

244. Oh heck, the more straw men the merrier. The whole

"partial birth abortion" flaparoo is a straw man set up by Bushco so they can ban a fictitious procedure and win more points with their fundie base.

[RetroLounge]

216. Oooh, the Strawman Fake Boob Argument

ding ding ding

We have a winner!

RL

[zanana]

48. "Sexist" is a man trying to tell a woman what to do.

I'm not trying to tell YOU what to do, am I? So, obviously one of us is a sexist, but it's not me. I don't give a fig if you're gay. You're absolutely right that I don't know what it's like to be a gay man. And if men (gay or straight) could get pregnant, I wouldn't have the right to tell them what to do about it, sweetie.

[outinforce]

58. I Am Not Telling You What To do

"Sweetie"?

Now there's a term that I have never used when talking to a woman.

That is because I consider that term to be both demeaning and almost sexist.

And why do you say that "obviously" one of us is sexist?

You made a statement that said, as I recall, that you give only half as much serious consideration to the points of view that men have regarding abortion.

Discounting the views of someone else based solely on his sex is, to my way of thinking, coming perilously close to having a sexist opinion.

[sangh0]

73. So I guess

women should come to me for tips on feminine hygiene

[cap]

50. go read all the nice articles in the Catholic Standard lately...

extolling how a woman took her chances and had her kids against the odds. And the nice, juicy one about the woman who carried the dead baby for a week before she delivered it. (carrying dead/dying babies is highly toxic -- one of the major causes of death in childbirth). Her husband saw it looking a little limp and peaked during the ultrasound.

We women are to give our lives for our children. The old Catholic standard that the woman's life is worth less than her child still lives. The Church wants us to go back to the old days of taking our chances in childbirth and they are not ashamed to admit it.

[outinforce]

54. Why Would I Want To Read That?

Why are you suggesting that I read the Catholic Standard?

I am not Catholic.

My first posts to this thread mentioned concerns I have about reading statements from organizations that might be biased in this discussion.

I think the RC Church has a fairly large bias.

[cap]

98. because that will be the effect of what you advocate...

eom

[outinforce]

101. Please

Please do describe for me, in detail, "what I advocate".

This ought to be really good.

[WillyT]

188. Here's A Story For Ya !!!

Involves abortion AND parental consent!!! You're gonna just LOVE this!!!

When I was in high school, a girl we knew became pregnant. She wasn't married, or even of age yet. Well, she went to her parents to deliver the news and seek their loving counsel. Dad got a tad upset at daughter for being pregnant, and with abortion being illegal at the time (1972), and the family being without much financial means...

Dad tossed daughter down the stairs from the second story, breaking her arm, but not ending her pregnancy. Confounded, yet patient, dear 'ole DAD, waited til daughter's arm was mostly healed before he whacked her in the abdomen with a FUCKING BASEBALL BAT, which fortunately for DAD, did the trick. No more pregnant daughter.

Daughter, however, has NEVER been the same since!!!

pro-life MY ASS!!!

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[sangh0]

193. Now *THAT'S* what you call "pro-life"

.

[outinforce]

205. No.

That is called being abusive.

[WillyT]

231. The Whole Pro-Life\Pro-Choice Argument Is Continually Abusive...

to the women who face that choice, and to our entire political landscape as well.

But thanks for playing...

:shrug:

[Vladimir]

212. Now you see why my position is that

any pro-life man whose partner becomes pregnant, and she is unable to have the abortion she wishes, should be neutered.

Might bring the point home to some people. Although I doubt it.

[FizzFuzz]

228. and this story is NOT rare

:cry:

goddammit why do these lousy "pro-life" fucks call themselves protectors of innocent life, while not giving one flaming crap about the innocent girls they wish to condem to helpless passivity and death at the hands of illegal unsafe abortion procedures when they are raped, murdered, incested, mutilated, traumatized, lied to, and forced to breed.

[cap]

248. simply put...

you advocate the death of a mother in cases where a termination of a pregnancy will preserve the mother's life.

Let's call it like it is.

[outinforce]

251. Yes.

Let's call it like it is.

I asked you, cap, to describe for me, in detail, "what I advocate".

And you got it completely wrong.

It is a total mystery to me how you could possibly conclude that I advocate the death of a mother in cases where a termination of a pregnancy will preserve the mother's life.

I have never advocated such an extreme position, and I do not appreciate your efforts to demonize me.

[cap]

254. then write down what your position is...

eom.

[outinforce]

255. You Ask. I Respond

I am pro-choice.

I am anti-abortion.

Details:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=8778#9382

[cap]

257. thanks for the thread...

I just alerted the mods...you can't fool people with word games...

Just keep writing... you are hanging yourself. It looks like you have a history of this.

[Vladimir]

69. Abortion emancipates n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Save the preconceived babies!

STOP THE BLOODY MONTHLY CARNAGE!

Although I think there is a dangerous myopia even here, since these people are not considering the millions of little, tiny, helpless swimming babies (you call them "sperm", murderer) that die horrible, screaming deaths every time a 15 year old boy locks himself in the bathroom with a copy of JUGGS...

[Beetwasher]

97. Reminds Me of A Joke

A boy just finishes up masturbating in his room when his dad walks in and catches him with the "mess" in his hands. The dad looks sternly at his son and says "Son, what you did was wrong. Do you realize that what's in your hand has the potential for life? That could have been a doctor or a scientist or even President! I want you think hard on what you've done". The dad leaves the son there to ponder his actions and the son looks at his hand and the contents thereof and says "You know, my dad is right, this had the potential to be all those things, but then again, it could have been a criminal or murderer or a child molestor! Hmmm, I guess I'll give you another chance!" Then he licked his hand clean.

[FizzFuzz]

226. props

:thumbsup: ;-) :thumbsup:

[StopThief]

24. This will take a while to be overturned.

California Judge, so the appeal will go to the 9th Circuit which will uphold the ruling. The Supreme Court will then proceed to strike it down and uphold the law.

In the meantime, the Republican base gets all fired up over "activist judges" who "make law".

Lose-Lose for the Pro-Choice side.

[HFishbine]

35. Activists Senator Santorum

The people of Pennsylvania should be embarrassed.

[AZCat]

39. Official Link: Federal Court Order Granting Permanent Injunction

Because there seems to be some question about the impartiality of the news release from Planned Parenthood, here are the links to the online copies of the documents from the case Planned Parenthood et al. v. Ashcroft.

Order Granting Permanent Injunction: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/judges.nsf/61fffe74f99516d088256d480060b72d/eeb4b0075349979688256ea60057d1d9?OpenDocument


I hope this settles at least ONE argument...

On Edit: corrected title from 'Links' to 'Link'

[libcurious]

51. Just a question

I am 100% pro-choice. I have children and hate abortion but it is not my place to tell a woman what to do with her body.
I am 100% pro-death penalty. Just not the way we do it. If a person has been correctly convicted without doubt of murder, they should pay.
So my question is:
Why is it ok to kill a convicted criminal but not let a woman have a choice?

[Tansy_Gold]

134. The answer that is often given by anti-choicers is that

a criminal had a choice in what he/she did and is therefore not "innocent" and we have a right as a society to protect ourselves.

Pre-born fetuses, on the other hand, are totally innocent and even when they present a threat to the life and/or health of the mother, even when they are severely deformed and would require enormous sacrifices by the mother, father, rest of the family, and the society, they are still more valuable and more deserving of life than anyone else.

Now, that having been said, there are many anti-choice folks who are also against the death penalty and against war. But it remains true that many of the fundamentalist right-to-lifers are virulently opposed to abortion but positively gleeful when it comes to putting convicted (rightly or wrongly) criminals to death.

[libcurious]

163. Ok, how bout the reverse then

why is it ok to kill a fetus, but not someone who murdered someone else?

[outinforce]

169. THe Answer

from most pro-abortionists is that a fetus is not human. Or, if it is human, it is a body part -- no different from a tonsil or an appendix.

[sangh0]

176. Not quite

The argument is that a fetus is not a "person" as defined by law.

A fetus is human. At least, a human fetus is human. And it's not a body part, though the anti-abortion reproduction Gestapo will say that pro-choicers think so. In fact, one of them just did.

[Mandate My Ass]

179. I second that

:thumbsup:

[sangh0]

182. What I find truly incredible

is that he thinks it's not obvious. He just made a post arguing that a 14 year old girl should be proud to have had an abortion.

[Mandate My Ass]

185. What I find truly incredible

is just about everything he says.

Or is that not credible? Um, yeah, that's it.

[RetroLounge]

219. pro-abortionists?????

But I thought you said they were wonderful?

Doesn't that make you a pro-abortionists?

RL

[FizzFuzz]

227. bullshit. You know that and so does everyone else here.

outinforce, did you have a rough childhood? You're so dedicated to upholding this one, narrow, blinkered position, and so passive-aggressive with your phoney politeness and sarcastic misrepresentations and flimsy ad hominem attacks hiding behind protestations of allegiance to logic---

Did your mother force you out in public dressed as a girl and scream at you that she wished she never had you? Is that what's really going on here?

[outinforce]

256. Yes. YES. YES!!!!

I stand in awe.

Utter and complete awe.

You have somehow managed, FizzFuzz, using only the words I have posted here, to discover the deep, dark secrets of my childhood.

My childhood was very, very rough. I am so ashamed to admit it.

And yes, my mother did dress me up as a girl -- lace underwear, nylon stockings, high heels, make-up -- the works. I cringe just typing these words. All those feelings of shame coming up again. I thought I had done such a good job of repressing them.

And not only my mother, but my father as well -- they both continuously screamed at me that they wished I had never ever been born. Attempts at suicide were frequent, but always unsuccessful.

That is indeed what is really going on here.

Are you happy that you have outed me in this way? Does it make you feel good?

Your powers of deduction and diagnosis are sooooooo awesome.

I had tried -- for all these years -- to hide these deep, dark secrets about my past. You have uncovered them without even meeting me. Without even talking to me. Without any true contact with me at all.

I am sure I have other deep dark secrets supressed deep within me. Secrets that need a kind, gentle and awesome person like yourself to bring them to my conscious mind and then to help me to overcome them.

How can I get in touch with you? Do you cahrge by the hour? Can I get a discount if I promise to let you explore my psyche for many, many hours? Do I get a discount if I refer friends and/or family to you?

Please -- PLEASE -- do not desert me. My psyche is much to fragile to be toyed with. I am in need of the help that only you can provide.

You are so awesome.

[Vladimir]

62. WOHOO!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Cleita]

124. Finally, some judges are showing their cojones.

The judicial branches of our government may be the only ones left that can stop these fascists from dismantling our Constitution, step by step.

[Fear]

174. Partial birth abortion - regular abortion within the 20 week

period.
What are the rules in regard to partial birth abortion anywayz? - what's the max in weeks ?

The way it's setup in the Netherlands:
- Till 12 weeks it will be done through *vacuum....something-missingtranslation sp?*, or an abortionpil - after that some other method....
- Legally you can have an abortion till the 24th week.
(after the 24th week the fetus can also survive outside the womb)

[DaveSZ]

184. This is why judicial appointments are so important

http://air.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=2863


Hamilton, Phyllis J.
Born 1952 in Jacksonville, IL

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Northern District of California
Nominated by William J. Clinton on February 9, 2000, to a new seat created by 104 Stat. 5089, 5105; Confirmed by the Senate on May 24, 2000, and received commission on May 25, 2000.

Education:
Stanford University, B.A., 1974

Santa Clara University School of Law, J.D., 1976

Professional Career:
Deputy public defender, Office of the Public Defender, CA, 1976-1980
Manager, EEO Programs, Farinon Electric Corporation, 1980
Administrative judge, U.S. Merit Systems Protection Board, San Francisco Regional Office, CA, 1980-1985
Court commissioner, Municipal Court, Oakland-Piedmont-Emeryville Judicial District, 1985-1991
U.S. Magistrate Judge, Northern District of California, 1991-2000

Race or Ethnicity: African American

Gender: Female

[SideshowScott]

204. Just another meaningless law that Bush and the GOP parade around

The GOP and Bush are nothing but Con artists parading laws that will eather A) have nothing to do with anything and will be struck down in Fed Court or B) Screws you and helps people are nothing more than 2% of the country..
Abortion banning is one of those laws that will have nothing to do with anything its only perpouse is to pander to the loony right to life crowd..And will be struck down in Fed court..Im really no Abortion fan but the GOP and the Right to lifers go at it in a really wrong direction..Banning it wont solve anything! Rich people will get private Doctors to have then done like they did before Roe Vs Wade, People will go to Mexico and Canada in droves to have them done, back alley clinics will spring up like wildfires and Women will risk thire lives with home solutions. It will cause a national health epidemic But the GOP and Fundies could care less about that.
The only soution that I think would be to try to slow down the NEED for an Abortion with Education, making birth control and things like the morning after pill more easy to obtian.
I think a womans right to choose is a freedom that should be protected no matter how you feel about the subject.

[DaveSZ]

207. Yep

The Fundies are indeed supreme hypocrites.

They want to reduce abortions, but they are opposed to making the morning after pill available OTC.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

229. Sangha and Outinforce going at it!!

Does it get any better than this? I submit that it does not!

[kitkatrose]

258. No, it sure doesn't.

I never thought that I'd agree with anything that sang0 said, but here I am. I think I just fell down the rabbit hole.

[yankeedem]

230. June 1, time to

update the old ignore file.....

[DaveSZ]

237. Freepers

Freepers ignore the fact that Roe V Wade was decided by a Repub Supreme Court, and has been upheld by a Repub Supreme Court.

They also overlook the fact that the Supreme Court struck down a similar Nebraska law on "partial birth abortion."


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1146004/posts

[outinforce]

246. Yep

It is indeed time to update my ignore list.

[Mandate My Ass]

247. 209 and 225

glad I got screen shots before they got deleted. I wonder how that happened. :D

Swwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

[Beetwasher]

249. Awww, Is Someone Embarrassed and

Going around having posts deleted that make it evident how foolish and cowardly they are? ;-)

Countdown to deletion 3...2...1...

[Mandate My Ass]

250. I know

here we go. Mods!! Waaaah! :cry:

[Beetwasher]

252. Oh, And Did I Mention Pathetic Too?

3...2...1 :evilgrin:

Hmm, now if I'm on ignore, this post shouldn't be deleted right?

[kentuck]

253. Probably a conservative judge ?

or should be one for being stupid. Why put this issue into the public arena, that helps the conservatives forget everything else in the world, just before election?

[Moderator]

259. Locking

for a large number of PAs