how bush* dissed OUR WWII Veterans to build his own WAR monument

[diamond14]

http://savethemall.org/vets/graves_history.html

Genesis of the WWII Memorial
By John R. Graves
[e-mail]
Chairman
WWII Veterans To Save Our Mall

-snips-

...This Memorial in the very heart of our National Mall is a tragic indelible mistake....

Over $25 million of the contributions were spent on publicity and promotion. All major media opposed it. We appealed their decisions to the Courts where we were represented by dedicated and competent counsel. Consequently, their powerful, well financed "shock troops" went into action on Capitol Hill. It was their youthful "brass," not aging WWII veterans, who stalked the halls of the Congress.

With lightning speed, in the late afternoon, under the Suspension of the Rules Procedure -- legal, but somewhat unfair for our humble ranks or causes with no political clout or budget -- the House and Senate hastily passed legislation to immediately, without provisions, begin construction of the WWII Memorial in the heart of the Mall. It was called Public Law 107-11! It summarily nullified all commission hearings, past and future, and our pending Court plea for a Writ of Certiorari before the U.S. Supreme Court. So much for Judicial Review.

Our weak voices had been silenced. Throughout the controversy, we were labeled as "malcontents;" any form of opposition to the location and design was immediately and publicly branded "unpatriotic" -- a timely tactic. Disagreement is not disloyalty! We are not renegades. We are a National Coalition of distinguished citizens, scholars, clergy, architects, engineers, academics, historians, attorneys and, above all, many thousands of WWII Combat Veterans who, ironically are the rank and file of the proponents' organizations!

That American spirit is not visible in this memorial!That 2 mile stretch of beautiful green extending from the Capitol to the Lincoln Memorial has been virtually untouched since the Lincoln Memorial dedication in 1922. Our Founding Fathers envisioned this Mall as America's "Front Yard," and all it needs is a lawn mower!

Preservation of this sacred treasure is the dedicated goal of our Coalition. As Dr. Feldman stated: "Our National Mall, everyone should be there, but in person, not in stone..."The zeal of the proponents to foist this intrusive defacement into the very heart of our National Mall overshadowed one poignant human element: they failed to memorialize the Missing In Action (MIA) from WW II. There are 78,773! We feel that we speak for those silent souls. We hear no other voice.



WWII, Cpl. John Graves

[bryant69]

1. The Great thing about Calling Someone a "Malcontent"

Is that it effectively minimizes their argument without having to address, even tangentially, the substance of what they arguing.

Happened to think of this as he mentioned being called a Malcontent.

Partisan works the same way.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[outinforce]

2. Please

The inaccuracies in this statement from one of the groups that opposed the construction of the WWII Memmorial contains this little gem:

"That American spirit is not visible in this memorial! That 2 mile stretch of beautiful green extending from the Capitol to the Lincoln Memorial has been virtually untouched since the Lincoln Memorial dedication in 1922. Our Founding Fathers envisioned this Mall as America's "Front Yard," and all it needs is a lawn mower!

One would have a very difficult time, I think, mowing the space between 17th street and the Lincoln Memorial Circle.

There is a big reflecting pool there, with very little grass on either side of it.

The WWII does not deface the Mall. The vistas are still there. Most of the WWII Memorial lies below street level.

[diamond14]

5. here's the view from 17th street...'the vistas are still there"???

[diamond14]

9. scenes you'll NEVER see again on the National Mall....

BTW, many people have written and spoken out to tell America that the BUSH WWII WAR MONUMENT was put through by the current mis-administration to hinder the ability of the American public to protest on the Mall....


http://savethemall.org/photos/nevermore/04.html









the Rainbow Pond...17 ACRES around this pond were used for the bush* WWII WAR monument....







the BUSH WWII Monument

[BabsSong]

3. There was something fitting about this memorial when one takes

into consideration the time we are now living in. As many critics pointed out, this monument is very Nazi Germany-like. It is the architecture, design very much favored by the builders of the Third Reich. It is a structure Hitler would have adored. It's an insult to the WWII veterans but it so captures the spirit of the Bush Reich and thus, is such an appropriate reminder that what they fought in WWII has now taken residency in the USA.

[bryant69]

6. I think the nazi archetecture parallels

Don't make a lot of sense--has anybody written a good argument of this that points to similarities?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[diamond14]

10. A Touch of Albert Speer By Carlos Widman (Der Speigel)

http://www.savethemall.org/media/touch.html

A Touch of Albert Speer
By Carlos Widman
Der Speigel
2 June 2001, Nr. 23

"We are giving a banal war memorial the same importance as the most powerful symbols of our Nation," objects Judy Feldman, architectural historian and co-chair of the National Coalition to Save Our Mall. She fears that the veterans groups and the Pentagon may have come together in this effort primarily to polish the image of the U.S. military. This certainly is a plausible motive - even more, the sheer size of the Memorial embodies the American victory over Evil, as embodied in Hitler....George W. Bush last week gave his permission to build it.

It shows a certain naivete to choose an Austrian who came to the States as an adult and speaks English with Kurt Waldheim's accent, to build this monument. U.S. citizen Friedrich St. Florian, born in 1932 in Graz, Austria as FRIEDRICH GARTLER, has been chosen for this honorable duty in a national competition involving 404 participants. The inhabitant of the Steiermark with the elegant pseudonym came to the U.S. in 1961 thanks to a Fulbright scholarship which allowed him to study at Columbia University in New York. Soon he became an architect and taught at the well-known Rhode Island School of Design. He is still teaching there today. In search of a solution which would please the veterans, St. Florian had a sure touch, nothing too complicated, preferably familiar forms, cozily retro.

The problem is that this style - in a monument to commemorate the victory over Nazi Germany -- reminds us right away of the architect Hitler himself discovered. Deborah Dietsch, Editor in Chief of the Magazine " Architecture" says it outright: She feels painfully reminded of the architecture of Albert Speer. And Judy Feldman sees consequences: "When the tourists come out of the Holocaust Museum and go to the WWII Memorial, they will be in for a shock. This is the same kind of aesthetic they would have just seen in photographs of the Third Reich."

By then, maybe the angry WWII veteran who recently talked to a reporter might have calmed down. His words were "It looks like Hitler won the War."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. Yes. Albert Speer could have done no better

The fascist elements were hard to ignore. In fact the overall scale of the thing was originally bigger. It was downsized after complaints from a broad spectrum of critics.

[diamond14]

13. Architect Freidrich St. Florian, AKA Freidrich Gantler was a HITLER YOUTH

HITLER YOUTH

Friedrich Gartler, born in Graz, Austria in 1932, now using the name of Friedrich St. Florian.....


He was born in 1932

He was 13 in 1945.

The Anschluss in 1938 made Austria a province of Das Dritte Reich.

Hitler Jugend (Hitler Youth) membership was made compulsory for youths over 17 in 1939 and for all over the age of ten in 1941.

So, Friedrich St. Florian, AKA "FRIEDRICH GARTLER" would have been a Hitler Youth member from 1942 to 1945.


here's a link to more about "Hitler Youth"...many "Hitler Youth" fought against OUR soldiers near the end of WWII....
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitleryouth.html

[rasputin1952]

19. So what you are saying...

is that for the toss of a coin, an incident of birthplace, you father or grandfather, brother, cousin, or any other male in Austria in 1941 would have been a "Hitler Youth"...:shrug:

I was brought up in a a RW conservative family, but that certainly doesn't mean I'll vote GOP.

I still don't see the point of your argument. The monument is fine, and long overdue. I wish my father, (of German ancestry and fought in Europe, d.1965); or my stepfather, (of Italian decent, fought in North Africa, Italy, France and Germany, d.2000), were alive to see what was erected for what this country did during WWII.

O8)

[diamond14]

24. no, the HITLER YOUTH should have had the morals to decline

the job.....

this is an honor for American WWII Veterans, and Friederick St. Florian, born, raised and educated in Austria as "Friederick Gantler", a member of HITLER YOUTH...should have had the dignity, and morals and respect-for-OUR-WWII-Veterans to decline the honor, based on his background....

but, he didn't show any integrity at all...sad...


there were 400 contestants, AND bush* appointed the selection committee....who approved Gantler without a single dissenting vote....this is very UNUSUAL for such a competition....look at the recent competition in NYC for the Trade Center replacement buildings...six were selected and VIEWED BY THE PUBLIC...the final seletion was approved by the public after discussion....for the bush* WWII MONUMENT, none of that occurred...the selection committee (mostly military) selected GANTLER (former HITLER YOUTH) without a single dissenting vote....not even a second place or third place option was presented to the public, as has occurred in NYC...

[rasputin1952]

26. I am not saying that the selection process was fair or unfair...

I expect nothing 'fair' from this admin anyway, btw.

But the entire process was begun long before bush was in office. There were plenty of debates, many of them against a memorial at all!

There were changes to plans; plans disnmissed outright; all kinds of things happened over this situation. Some of the "Preservers of the Mall", a big RW group....didn't want ANYTHING put in the Mall.

When I go to DC in Aug/Sep w/my son, we will visit the memorial. I will shudder at the name of bush being engraved in granite; but I will still respect those that fought, and supported the efforts of WWII. There is where my real sentiment lies....:)

[diamond14]

27. first go to the Holocaust museum to get full impact of the WWII MONUMENT

http://www.savethemall.org/media/touch.html

A Touch of Albert Speer
By Carlos Widman
Der Speigel
2 June 2001, Nr. 23


The problem is that this style - in a monument to commemorate the victory over Nazi Germany -- reminds us right away of the architect Hitler himself discovered. Deborah Dietsch, Editor in Chief of the Magazine " Architecture" says it outright: She feels painfully reminded of the architecture of Albert Speer. And Judy Feldman sees consequences: "When the tourists come out of the Holocaust Museum and go to the WWII Memorial, they will be in for a shock. This is the same kind of aesthetic they would have just seen in photographs of the Third Reich."

By then, maybe the angry WWII veteran who recently talked to a reporter might have calmed down. His words were "It looks like Hitler won the War."

[rasputin1952]

31. When I was stationed in Germany...

I got to go to a "processing station" in Mainz. It prompted me to go to other sites that are related to the Holocaust. If I could have, I would have visited villages in Poland and other places that were literally leveled w/all of the population annihilated. I know of the 55 million people that were lost during WWII, it is seared into my conscience.

Growing up in NYC, I knew men ands women that still bore the tattooed numbers on their arms.....Trust me, I am aware...:(

[diamond14]

36. PHOTOS of HITLER YOUTH (from the Holocaust Museum)

Front page of the Nazi publication, Der Stuermer, with a cartoon depicting a group of Hitler Youth marching forth to drive the forces of evil from the land. The caption under the cartoon reads, "We youth step happily forward facing the sun... With our faith we drive the devil from the land."

The headline reads, "Declaration of the Higher Clergy/So spoke Jesus Christ: You hippocrites who do not see the beam in your own eyes.



In Berlin, thousands of Party officials, Hitler Youth members, and Labor Service leaders take an oath of loyalty read by Rudolf Hess in Munich and broadcast across Germany...


American investigator George Atlas questions a member of the Hitler Youth arrested for blowing-up a U.S. Ninth Army jeep.


American troops of the US 7th Army force suspected members of the Hitler Youth to view the Dachau death train.

The Dachau death train consisted of nearly forty cars containing the bodies of between two and three thousand prisoners transported to Dachau in the last days of the war.

http://www.ushmm.org

[TahitiNut]

28. It's a style of architecture that looms above mere humans.

It's a style favored by those wishing to promote the power and majesty of a State above the individual, reducing the individual to a mere subject. It's not as much (if at all) a 'memorial' as it is a 'monument' to power and 'Victory' no matter the principles. It elevates Imperialism and subliminally propagandizes nationalism and psycho-patriotism. The major role of the US in WW2 was as a profiteer and beneficiary of the following years where the industrial base of other countries was virtually nonexistent.

Nowhere is the underlying truth that it was really World War Part Two ... an abysmal failure to "win the peace" following World War Part One. That failure was represented not only in the "spoils of war" attitude regarding Germany that led to exploitation and oppression (perpetual punishment) of Germany, but also in the abysmal manner in which veterans of that "Part One" were treated not only in the US (assaulting the "bonus marchers") but in Germany where veterans were shunned and treated, in effect, as outlaws. It's no accident that the Nazi's were heavily populated by the surviving cannon fodder of "Part One."

Nowhere is the incredible, appalling worldwide cost in human lives indicated, where the loss in American lives was a minority footnote. Nowhere is the prevalent theme leading to and permeating World War Parts One and Two indicated: global imperialism and empire.

It's a monument to myopic, self-centered, jingoistic revisionist history.

[TankLV]

63. Actually, the whole "Federal Style" in our capitol is quite similar

to Speer's visions for Berlin.

If one can divorce oneself from the connections the architect had with Hitler, his designs were based on imperial Rome - at a much larger and some would say grotesque scale - and I think they are very interesting to look at - if you ignore the history of their genesis.

Now, that can be argued to be the same as the debate of using Mengele's result from his horrible experiments for current medical treatments for hypothermia, etc.

If one would look at the designs, they are quite interesting, from a strictly design standpoint. Very axial, symmetrical and LARGE.

DC is just as "grand" a vision - the whole present-day federal style came into being (the buildings that are existing today) between the 2 world wars - including the Lincoln and Jefferson memorials, and most of the federal buildings in the classical "federal style" we see today.

The entire complex IS meant to convey the power of the State over the people. Some say the results in DC are a quieter version of imperial Rome.

Just my 2 cents.

[diamond14]

4. there are only TWO names on the WWII Monument....(photo)

the whole monument fiasco (as noted by WWII Veteran John Graves at the start of this thread) was shoved through Congress RAPIDLY, pushed by current pentagon brass...with no input from WWII Veterans....the WWII MONUMENT was approved by bush* in July 2001, real quick after stealing OUR White House...


all part of bush* glorious PERPETUAL WAR for America....public glorification of WAR is an important part of bush* imperialism and conquest, and it started ASAP after stealing the WH....

bush* couldn't find room to add the names of OUR Soldiers to his WAR Monument...but he made certain that his own name, as the PERPETUAL WAR pResident is prominently displayed in BIG letters....

[PaDUer]

12. Disgraceful! n/t

[TankLV]

65. Agreed -= can we start a petition to get it scrubbed?

I certainly would like to sponsor a bill as soon as the Democrats take control of the congress!

[moondust]

40. Bush family responsible for many GI deaths.

As inappropriate as anything I've ever seen is the Bush name on that memorial after what Prescott did for the Nazis which enabled them to kill GIs and murder Holocaust victims while creating a fortune for the BFEE to later use to buy their way out of work and into drunkenness and high public office.

[diamond14]

55. watch this GREAT flash video from symbolman....only takes a minute

and tells the WHOLE story....

title:
"bush* is not a nazi, so stop saying that"

just open this link and it should pop right up and play....only takes a minute of your time, and well worth it...

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[mopaul]

7. he is a disgrace to all veterans......

[readmylips]

8. We should all Spitl at that part of the memorial....

how dare those bastard bushes....

It was so sad to see those old WWII soldiers trying to walk and showing good spirit, while all the time small man bush was making himself the center of attraction. Is Jeffrey Dommer in the house? Are you hungry Jeffrey?

[ShaneGR]

14. Well, this is one of those I'm gonna say "whatever"

Thousands of WWII veterans die every day. I'm happy that we got the memorial up in time for the last ones to be honored. I also like the location and the size. It does not ruin the mall, as there is still tons of open space available.

My question is, how much longer were we going to wait for a damn monument? This has been going on for 17 years.

[diamond14]

15. the vapid battle cry "We must get this built before the WWII Veterans die"

read the article that started this thread...it was written by a WWII Veteran...and it will open your eyes to bush* big dupe: "we must get this built before the WWII Veterans die."

-snips- from the article posted at the beginning of this thread...


Since WWII there had been no demand by any Veteran units for yet another WWII Memorial anywhere. Most every town and village already had a small flower plot with a flag pole, or there was an old cannon on practically every County Court House lawn, with a roster of names. Those of us who returned were awarded a cash bonus by most states, and there was the G.I. Bill of Rights.

In Washington many years passed before the Marine and Navy Memorials were built; the Air Force is now building one; and approaching Arlington Cemetery there are Memorials to the Women, Seabees, Paratroopers, Tankers, etc.

"We must get this built before the WWII Veterans die," became their vapid battle cry. So, why did they wait 50 years? Because it was not their idea! It was a political accident, absolutely. But they are not building it for "Us". We were there. We were concerned about the public reaction 100 years hence. This Memorial in the very heart of our National Mall is a tragic indelible mistake. The original cost was to be only $56 million, but is now well over $170 million (but of course these folks thrive on cost overruns). They tried to keep the figures secret, which is their nature, but we knew it was public information, however it became necessary for us to obtain a court order to force them to make those figures public.

This costly, grotesque, improperly located intrusion, coupled with its geological problems, is a legacy we WWII Veterans do not want! Moreover, their 15 feet excavation, far below water table level, will necessitate a 24/7 sophisticated and costly hi-tech pumping system, discharging arsenic contaminated water into the Potomac.

[outinforce]

17. This Would Explain, Then

Your post would explain, then, all of those WWII veterans I saw this past week-end here in Washington.

I guess all of those veterans viewed the WWII Memorial as a legacy they did not want.

I guess the tears I saw in their eyes were from the cost over-runs and the "geological problems".

[TankLV]

66. Thank you. I don't know of ANY WWII veterans that opposed this monument.

In fact, the church where I grew up in, when I told them about the honorary website, asked if I could work on making sure all the veterans in our church are included in the registry.

It's a loooooooong overdue thing.

It is beautifully situated - the water is a welcome relief during the hot summers.

[drfemoe]

20. A little perspective

The idea for the memorial came nearly two decades ago, but it was only in 1993 that Congress authorized construction. Critics complained its large-scale design would spoil the vistas long enjoyed by visitors to the Mall. Courts eventually rejected the challenge.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-05-29-wwii-memorial_x.htm

Eleven years ago, President Bill Clinton signed a law that authorized the American Battle Monuments Commission to establish a WWII memorial in Washington, D.C. It will be the first national memorial dedicated to everyone who served in the war.
http://www.townonline.com/easton/news/local_regional/ej_newejveteransmmday05282004.htm

Wonder if this group hadn't been fighting for their version of a memorial, would this have been finished eight years ago?
Clinton gave the go ahead, and then the court cases started, do I have that right?
I don't know Einstein's formula, but there has to be one to express "people have their own agendas .. choose carefully".

edit to add >> it is a distressing world when *everyone* cannot have things exactly as they want them. In this case, my remaining family members were excited about having their brother at last "remembered".

His name is in the registry >>
http://www.wwiimemorial.com/default.asp?page=registry.asp&subpage=intro << and it's really the first recognition they have had that their brother's life was worth remembering. He was only 19 years old, the oldest of four.

In these stories, we will probably find the benefit of a "memorial". I hope that the others who do not feel they've received the memorial they desire will find somehow find peace.

[diamond14]

21. Clinton wanted a memorial for 'everyone who served in the war'

but bush* wanted a memorial to glorious WAR WAR WAR....


as a result...there are no names on the memorial, except AWOL bush, and name-changed Friederick St. Florian, who was born in Austria in 1932 as Friederick GANTLER and served as a HITLER YOUTH during WWII....


no other names....

in addition, there is NOTHING on the MONUMENT to recognize the over 78,773 MIAs, the "Rosie the Riverters" or the sacrifice of everyone in America....


---------------------------------
is it

Clinton's Plan
a memorial to everyone who served in the war?

or

bush* plan
an Austrian-German MONUMENT to the glory of WAR WAR WAR??

-----------------------------------


only names on WWII Monument



...derided for "militaristic tone and empty grandeur and for not conveying...what the war was all about"....

-snip-

.....criticism of the long-awaited monument to the veterans of World War II has been harsh -- and loud. Columnists and critics in such major publications as the New York Times, The Washington Post and the New Yorker have derided it for what they term a militaristic tone and empty grandeur and for not conveying to an uninformed visitor what the war was all about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3180-2004May30.html

[drfemoe]

23. The Names are There !!

Will you please take time to read the referenced link?
Introduction

Welcome to the WWII Registry! The memory of America's World War II generation will be preserved within the physical memorial and through the World War II Registry of Remembrances, an individual listing of Americans who contributed to the war effort. Any U.S. citizen who helped win the war, whether a veteran or someone on the home front, is eligible for the Registry. Names in the Registry will be forever linked to the memorial's bronze and granite representations of their sacrifice and achievement.

http://www.wwiimemorial.com/default.asp?page=registry.asp&subpage=intro

It says the names are contained "within the physical memorial" AND through the Registry. So are we supposed to bust a gasket because the names aren't written all over the monument(s)/memorial? I don't like it that whoosh* got his name on there, no doubt. And there may be other issues here. But to claim that this memorial honors no one other than whoosh*, I think is a mistake. Why would anyone want to claim that? As far as informing "what the war was about", a library would be a better resource. That's not the intent of a memorial.

[rasputin1952]

30. Thanks for the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have already put my father and stepfather in.

I have more to put in...but need to do a little research first.

Others that will go in are my Mom, uncles and aunts!

I had meant to do it this weekend...but thankfully, your post prompted this old brain!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again...:hi: :bounce:

[drfemoe]

38. you are quite welcome

I'm glad it helped and thanks for letting me know. From the Registry, you can also print the certificates of honor!

[zoidberg]

33. Some facts to set the record straight...

The monument does mention the sacrifices of everyday Americans.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2587590
WASHINGTON -- Former first lady Eleanor Roosevelt was considered, of course.

But in the end, it was Houston's Oveta Culp Hobby who was deemed the woman most deserving of a quotation etched on the granite walls of the nation's new World War II Memorial...

"Women who stepped up were measured as citizens of the nation, not as women. ... This was a people's war and everyone was in it."





And the groundbreaking for the Memorial took place on Veterans' Day 2000. http://www.pentagon.mil/speeches/2000/s20001111-secdef.html and http://www.dod.mil/news/Nov2000/n11142000_200011142.html
Notice the design from November 2000 is basically the same as the completed form.

[outinforce]

16. I Think You Are Seeing Here On This Thread

Why many, many veterans of WWII dies without ever seeing a memorial to their efforts being constructed in Washington, DC.

A lot of people did not want ANY memorial built. No where. ]

And so, they delayed and delayed and delayed and delayed.

And now that it is built, what do they say?

It "spoils" The Mall.

Newsflash for those of you who have not been paying attention -- the Mall's greenspace has been disappearing for some time.

The Hirshhornh Museum

The National Air and Space Museum

The American Indian Museum.

There is even a space on the Mall where COngressional Staffers now park their cars!

And yet, constructing a monument to the WWII veterans "spoils" the Mall. It would be funny, except it is really sad to see so many people so eager to have nothing that honors the brave women and men who put out the dangerous darkness in Europse and Japan in the 1940's.

It looks like something that Hitler would have built, and its architect was born in Austria.

I guess we should only use US-born, red-blooded Americans to architect our monuments, museums, and memorials here in Washington. Maybe I.M. Pei should be barred from ever again designing a museum for DC.

The WWII Memorial may be pedestrian -- but it is not Nazi-like. It is no more an example of Nazi architecture than the Lincoln Memorial

One more thing you might be interested to know.

Did you know that there is a Memorial to the people who fought in WWI here in Washington? Actually, it is a Monument to the people from the Distrcit of Columbia who fought in that war. It is small, obscure, and something that very few people know about or vist -- the sort of memorial that many on this thread would seem ot want for the memorial to WWII.

One more thing about the WWI memorial. The National Park Service has neglected to maintain it. Eleanor Holmes Norton, our representative in Congress, recently complained about it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. None of those previous bldgs are on the central axis of the Mall

big difference.

[salin]

29. where do the staffers park their cars?

All the rest you mention was there when I frequented the Hill for work (eighties). Missed, however, part of the Mall as a parking lot.

[outinforce]

34. There is a Space

bounded by Pennslyvania Avenue, Constitution Avenue, and 1st Street, NW.

It is has a chain link fence and is graveled.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

37. And there is the previously public parking area between the mall

and WH which is now filled with WH cars no longer allowed on WH grounds after 9/11.

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. No more "Nazi than the Lincoln Memorial"?? What an insane argument.

If the Lincoln Memorial had been built by a descendant of John Wilkes Booth, would you say the same thing?

It's a known fact that Prescott Bush and his young lawyer protege Richard Nixon helped scores of Nazis immigrate to this country in the late 40's. What if this Hitler Youth Gantler/St Florian was one of them?

Is this the right person to be building what should be a monument to the defeat of Hitler?

And why are the only names engraved on the monument those of this former fascist, and the current fascist swine who follows in Hitler's footsteps?

I find this all very troubling.

[alfredo]

22. A memorial was the right thing to do. The problem I have with it

is the troubling design of the memorial. My first impression of the design was reinforced by the revelations about the designer. Did bush know of his past?

I am also unhappy that only bush and Florian are the only names on the memorial. I know putting all on the site would be a monumental task. It is a slap in the face of all veterans to have someone like bush, a man who has shown open hostility to veterans, honored on the site. Also, why did Florian change his name? What is he hiding outside his membership in the Hitler Youth?

[diamond14]

25. your question about St. Florian changing his name is VERY IMPORTANT..

in honor of OUR WWII Veterans and their sacrifices...I hope someone will reseach St. Florian (born, raised, and educated as GANTLER) biography....

the ONLY biography for St. Florian that I have found was posted on the Austrian Government's web page....usually, the designers biography is prominently displayed in newspapers, and talked about on TV...sadly, there has been the usual deafening silence about Gantler's background....especially what he was doing in WWII?...

some HILTER YOUTH manned anti-aircraft guns and shot down American airplanes...HITLER YOUTH became critical military soldiers near the end of WWII, killing OUR soldiers....

here's a link to more about "Hitler Youth"...many "Hitler Youth" fought against OUR soldiers near the end of WWII....
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitleryouth.html

[alfredo]

32. Who could we contact about this

I know someone like Franken or Garafolo might want to look deeper.

[diamond14]

35. Holocaust museums nationwide, but especially the one in DC have

whole research libraries to keep the records from the Holocaust...that might be a place to find something about Gantler and his family, since you know his birthdate and birthplace....

I doubt that the Austrian embassy would help at all...but they might be able to tell you if Gantler holds DUAL loyalty to Austria and the USA by maintaining Austrian Citizenship....

arnold schwartznegger's biography was kept a SECRET for many years, and it was only during the very brief campaigning in California that his fathers' job as a hitler SS officer was revealed...and arnold was born in Graz, Austria also....hitler was born and raised in Austria....

arnold is too young to have served hitler as a HITLER YOUTH...but for Gantler, from 1942 to 1945, it was mandatory for him to serve as a HITLER YOUTH....

[alfredo]

39. In some ways, I hope it isn't so. Our WWII veterans don't need that.

It would be too sad for them.

[DaveSZ]

41. Wait a minute

When we had that women's rights march, the memorial was still there.

At the very least it was still under construction...

That didn't stop people from protesting, and it was one of the largest gatherings ever.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

42. Whoa.... he was 11 in 1945...... ELEVEN

His father was a hydro-electric engineer who built dams and such.

Let's cool the rhetoric of which we accuse the other side, huh?

[diamond14]

45. WRONG!!! Gantler was 13 years old in 1945 (PHOTOS: hitler youth)

hitler youth manned anti-aircraft guns, fought against OUR soldiers in WWII....IMO, Freiderick St. Florian (who changed his name from Freiderick Gantler) should have stepped aside and declined the honor...but apparently, he had NO RESPECT for OUR WWII Veterans...



American investigator George Atlas questions a member of the Hitler Youth arrested for blowing-up a U.S. Ninth Army jeep.



American troops of the US 7th Army force suspected members of the Hitler Youth to view the Dachau death train.

The Dachau death train consisted of nearly forty cars containing the bodies of between two and three thousand prisoners transported to Dachau in the last days of the war.

http://www.ushmm.org

[Vladimir]

46. With logic like this

Premise A: Some Hitler Youth fought against the Allies

Premise B: Person X was a Hitler Youth

Conclusion: Person X fought against the allies

Am I the only one who spots the flaw here?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

48. No. you are not the only one.

I know a man who was a Hitler Youth. He described it as like the Boy Scouts for kids his age.

In fact, as an Eagle Scout myself, I can tell you there are plenty of potential, if not real, Nazis in the Boy Scouts.

This whole thread is as bad as a freeper one.

[diamond14]

50. IMO, Gantler should have respected OUR soldiers and stepped aside

that would have been the ethical and moral thing to do...the RIGHT thing to do....

if this HITLER YOUTH had any integrity at all, his conscience would have told him that he was the WRONG person for the job....

by your logic...you'd love it if Wagner concerts were conducted at the bush*'s WWII MONUMENT with Holocaust survivors getting free tickets...

[Vladimir]

53. Why is he the wrong person

other than he might have been a member (yeah, so it was compulsory - you don't know that he didn't evade it, do you?) of the Hitler Youth when aged 11-13. I lost my great-grandmother in Jasenovac, and frankly I can't see the problem - now argue aesthetics all you like, but stop smearing a man you know nothing about, please.

[outinforce]

52. If He Was 13 in 1945, then

he was 9 in 1945.

9 years old.

Would you want to be held accountable for every decision you made before you were 10?????

[diamond14]

58. WRONG ! erroneous second-grade mathematics...

it's a difficult task for most ditto-heads, so don't feel like you are alone...

try sending rush a message about this, OK?

[outinforce]

62. Ooops....My Bad

WHat I had meant to say was that if he was 13 in 1945, then he was 9 in 1941, the year the US entered the war.

And he would have been 7 in 1939, the year Germany invaded Poland.

I really have no clue as to why you would suggest that I am a "ditto-head".

And I can only conclude that your suggestion that I try sending Rush a message is the result of some silly notion that listen to Rush.

I guess I'll just have to conclude that you enjoy making personal attacks against people who happen not to adhere to your own view of the world.

To my own personal way of thinking, it's truly the mark of a little mind which, since it is incapabable of presenting ideas or arguments, contents itself with composing mean-spirited diatribes against those who don't happen to agree.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

43. Uh, did not the Big Dog approve the site and design?

Or am I missing something?

I think this is a big flap over a little thing, guys

[diamond14]

47. WRONG!!! g.w.bush* gave the permission to build it, while ignoring

concerns of WWII Veterans:

June 2, 2001.....George W. Bush last week gave his permission to build it....

http://www.savethemall.org/media/touch.html



From a WWII Veteran:

http://www.savethemall.org/vets/graves_history.html

We were buttressed by literally thousands of WWII Veterans who responded. They supported the WWII Memorial concept, but NOT in that location!

With lightning speed, in the late afternoon, under theSuspension of the Rules Procedure -- legal, but somewhat unfair for our humble ranks or causes with no political clout or budget -- the House and Senate hastily passed legislation to immediately, without provisions, begin construction of the WWII Memorial in the heart of the Mall. It was called Public Law 107-11! It summarily nullified all commission hearings, past and future, and our pending Court plea for a Writ of Certiorari before the U.S. Supreme Court. So much for Judicial Review.

Our weak voices had been silenced. Throughout the controversy, we were labeled as "malcontents;" any form of opposition to the location and design was immediately and publicly branded "unpatriotic" -- a timely tactic. Disagreement is not disloyalty! We are not renegades. We are a National Coalition of distinguished citizens, scholars, clergy, architects, engineers, academics, historians, attorneys and, above all, many thousands of WWII Combat Veterans who, ironically are the rank and file of the proponents' organizations!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

49. Dude. Things like this DO NOT happen that fast in our

government.... the site was selected in 1995, at least according to the NY Times, which, last time I checked was not run by Hitler Youth, but I could be mistaken.

And St. Florian had been working on the design since 1996.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/arts/design/26MEMO.html (registration required)



ROVIDENCE, R.I. — From the age of 11 he knew he wanted to be an architect. Growing up in rural Austria, Friedrich Florian Gartler tagged along on jobs with his father, a hydroelectric engineer, carrying his own store of cement to build dams over creeks.

Embarking on his career years later, he took the name Friedrich St. Florian, meant to honor both a Roman officer named Florian who was killed in Austria after converting to Christianity and the Italian futurist architect Antonio Sant'Elia, who died in World War I before many of his designs were realized.

If the new name was meant to convey conviction and courage, Mr. St. Florian chose appropriately, given the raucous eight years since 1996, when he was selected to design a long-contemplated World War II memorial on 7.4 acres of the National Mall. About 16 million Americans served in World War II. Fewer than four million are still alive, and 100,000 or so are expected to attend its official dedication on Saturday.

[diamond14]

54. it was a SUPREME COURT decision that denied challenges to the design

and the NYT's forget to state when that Supreme Court decision was made, but it was made shortly after the Supreme Court decision NOT TO COUNT THE BALLOTS in Florida.....and war criminal g.w.bush* approved the whole mess in May 2001....

"Ultimately construction proceeded only after the Supreme Court decided not to hear a case challenging the memorial's design and Congress passed a measure that would ban any further legal challenges."



and it's beyond any comprehension that Friederich GANTLER changed his name to Friederich St. Florian "to convey conviction and courage" as suggested by your NYT puff piece....

hopefully, the TRUTH about Hitler Youth Friederich Gantler will eventually be found...

[outinforce]

51. I Guess savethemall.org

I guess that savethemall.org would consider all those thousands and thousands and thousands of WWII combat vets who were here in DC last week-end enjoying the new memorial as being a bunch of malcontents.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

68. Well, personally, I do not like the WWII memorial or where

it is.
That is not to say there should not be one, but I feel there are better places, and certainly better designs which should have been considered.

The fact this guy is Austrian, and may or may not have been in Hitler Youth means nothing to me.

I can't believe all this vitrol over this.

[diamond14]

56. watch this GREAT video....only takes a minute...

and tells the WHOLE story....


just open this link and it should pop right up and play....only takes a minute of your time, and well worth it...

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

thanks to symbolman...a TRUE PATRIOT...

[Vladimir]

57. And has nothing to do with the monument n/t

[LagaLover]

59. Does that surprise you?

I've never seen such unsubstantiated mudslinging on DU as in this thread.

[Vladimir]

60. It disguists me actually

this thread... these threads disguist me. I thought I would find many things here, but this kind of xenophobia being tolerated I do not understand.

[LagaLover]

61. Well I learned something today...

I never knew that all Austrian members of the Hitler Youth (wasn't membership basically compulsory?) fought against and killed US soldiers. It's amazing the things you learn.

[TankLV]

64. At the end of WWII they WERE the german soldiers - that is a fact.

My father and uncles had to fight them. They didn't know they were the Hitler Youth until they captured some of them and took off their helmets. They were a very sad case - little boys wearing the cloths meant for a grown man. And these "children" indeed killed many of my father's comrads-in-arms.

But don't let any facts get in the way of your political agenda.

[outinforce]

67. Where Did This Occur?

The little boys who killed many of your father's comrades-in-arms..where were they?

My understanding is the use of boys in the German Army came very near the end of the war -- as allied troops were marching across German towards Berlin.

If so, might I humbly submit that those boys were doing what the boys in Iraq are doing today? And that is defending their nation from not just one -- but several foreign invading nations?

[TankLV]

69. These little boys didn't really know what they were doing.

My father was in the 4th armored division - so they were heading back towards France at the end of the war, I think, this might have been at the western end of Germany proper.

Only in the fact that they were told to "defend" the "fatherland", that is the end of the similarity. Unfortunately, the US is in Nazi Germany's role today regarding Iraq.

As an aside, I finally located the only pictures my father took of the war. They were only about 1 1/2" x 2" size, and consisted of pics of bombed-out cemetaries with the caskets and bodies all open and stren about, frozen/dead soldiers half rotten by the roadside, bombed houses and villages. He mostly tried to avoid shooting anyone and getting shot at - said he only had to shoot about 4 people he knew of in battle.

[Vladimir]

70. No one is disputing that some of the

Hitler Youth fought. The point is, there is no way to prove that:

a) This architect was in it at the time

b) He fought

Normally, one is innocent till proven guilty, no?

[TankLV]

71. From what I've read and was told, ALL were forced to fight no exceptions.

Unless he hid out, he fought.

They ver Nazi's after all. "Ve half vays off making you fight"! was not just an idle slogan.

If he did not, he was one of a kind - the german war command knew exactly where EVERYONE was - even at the very end.

My father told us how fannatical these kids were - it was like out of a "Stepford Wives" or Stephen King movie - most of the GI's who were killed simply could not believe these "sweet, innocent cherubs" could kill them, and kill them they did - with glee - like it was all a game. That was part of the "success rate" of these "kids" - they were able to convince the GI's to let their guard down completely - especially since the GI's knew the end was at hand.

Even when the surrender was official, they had a difficult time of getting these "kids" to stop.

It was truely amazing what the Nazi's created. It was very difficult to re-acclimate them to their lost childhood. There are many articles on this.

[Vladimir]

72. Be taht as it may

I submit to you that until one is proven to have fought (and not have been coerced into doing so), one is innocet.

I actually think, if he did fight, that its almost a fitting catharsis to the whole thing that someone forced to fight in a war at the age of 12 should end up making a memorial to the soldiers he had been forced to fight. But that is neither here nor ther.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

74. Let's not forget that lots and lots of the soldiers "he was forced"

to fight... if that is indeed what happened... were forced to fight too.

So, as in all wars, there is no true white or black, just a continuum of grays.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

73. Well, here we go again. Yes, the Nazis did a serious indoc

job on some kids. But not ALL kids. Do you even know where in Austria this guy grew up?
I am positive by 1944, mid-year, the Nazi's had better things to do than make sure that every 12 year old in every single berg in the Fatherland was properly prepared to fight to the death.

Come on. Think about it.

We do not know of this man's past deeds. Only he can answer that. You can paint with as broad a brush as you want.

Does that mean every American alive in the 60's is guilty of the war crimes committed in our name in SE Asia? Is every white South African guilty of the horrors of Apartied?

Give us a break, let it rest.