HS Teachers, especially CA teachers

[eileen from OH]

Re: language

I find myself getting all conservative/Republicanny about the issues concerning LANGUAGE.

My middle kid spent her junior HS year in Germany (with zip German language skills going in) and by Christmas was fluent, because she was forced to learn the language. She had language lessons, on the side, but the every day immersion was what really did it. She was given no accommodation, outside of the fact that most German kids had English as a second language and she was used to help THEM.

Are we doing a disservice to Latino youth by accommodating them in class and offering them bilingual education? Like it or not, the language of success in America is English. By not forcing them to learn and USE English, are we not handicapping them? Is the accommodation now given to Spanish-only education dooming them to jobs within a certain segmant of the population?

eileen from OH

[Sirveri]

1. This is one area I break from liberal ideology.

By all means, we need ONE language. What kinda irks me is that it's a bit 'too' easy to get away with not actually knowing English. Hell I wish that everyone would get on board with one single language. It would just make things so much easier if everyone could understand each other.

[eileen from OH]

2. It's my break from liberal ideology, too, Sirveri

I think we do NO favors to Latinos by offering bi-lingual classes - at least in the form that they are currently offered. But (and you may peel away here, sorry!) I also have a problem with schools that tolerate, and even encourage, Eubonics. By accepting African-American mis-pronunciations, and even defending the most egregious examples ("axe" for "ask", for example) we do do NO favors to African-American youth. Language, and pronunciation DO matter and DO separate us - as much as accents separate the British. As much as we want to celebrate the difference, and celebrate the cultural diversity, they DO matter. Denying it, of condemning those who say it does make a difference, is ignoring that, in the real world, the chances of success may hinge on language fluency.

I'm a great believer in teaching proper pronunciation and grammar and think that school systems that do otherwise, are encouraging practices tha are destructive and counterproductive.

eileen from OH

[Hekate]

5. Pidgin, Creole, Ebonics, Spanglish...

... are all badges of belonging, and serve a useful function outside mainstream school and employment. If you are a newcomer or any variety of minority it's got to be tiring to always be different. Social gatherings with special language and food are a necessity, imo. Sociologists, linguists, and anthropologists count themselves lucky if they are allowed in to study these different cultures in our midst.

But I completely agree that American schools won't do kids any favors by not insisting on mainstream correct English in school. I support bilingual education in concept, the idea being to mainstream ESL kids as soon as possible. I voted to keep it.

Long ago...when I was in high school college prep track, we had to write papers for every single class except math. We were graded on both grammer and content. It was pounded into our heads that this was important. Our parents were in accord with the teachers. There was no disagreement on this matter.

I don't understand parents who don't understand this basic fact of life. I don't support the notion that teaching kids to speak mainstream educated English is somehow betraying their other culture, or making them be falsely "white." I think it's bull, and unnecessarily holds kids back who might otherwise be successful.

By and large my classmates slipped into the local lingo outside the classroom -- a badge of belonging; but inside class, sit up and speak properly. It was everyone's ticket to a good job and higher education.

Hekate

[Dookus]

3. I think...

you buy into a popular misconception about bilingual education. I'm not a teacher, but I'm a Californian - we had this issue on the ballot a few years ago (Prop 227)

The children aren't taught in all, let's use the obvious example, Spanish. Spanish education is used to teach them things like math and science WHILE they're learning English. That way, they don't fall behind in those disciplines. But the goal has ALWAYS been to get them speaking, reading and writing English as soon as possible. The question is, should they be penalized in math for the time it will take them to accomplish that? If you don't speak much english, you're not going to be able to learn other subjects.

This isn't done out of liberal guilt. It's done because it's been shown to be the best way to educate children who learning a new language.

[coda]

4. That's the way I've understood it.

As a way to facilitate their moving to the English language, rather than a "cold turkey" approach.

If you're the only one speaking a certain language in a school("force"), no doubt you're going to learn the native language very quickly, but when your school, as well as your neighborhood, has anywhere from 10 to 50%+ speaking your language, it's impossible that the process could or would happen within the same timeframe w/o that "force".

[eileen from OH]

8. Thanks for clearing that up -

I was operating under a misconception.

And, believe me, I'm not saying "learn our damn language". But I keep hearing that Spanish is mandated all over the place, not just in schools, and not just in CA (Florida, with it's large Cuban population is another spot.) I worry that it slows down the integration of Spanish-speaking kids into mainstream America and diminishes their opportunities here.

If that makes any sense.

eileen from OH

[liberalitch]

9. Here, here....

Besides.... I think that there is nothing but an advantage to being bilingual.... maybe we should all learn at least a little spanish

[OKNancy]

6. Let's turn the situation around

A girl from a middle to upper-middle class home in Mexico City or Madrid comes to the US. Her family has the income to do it and she is obviously a smart girl. She goes to a nice school and has extra English lessons and students around her who are versed in Spanish.
I'm pretty sure you would have the same outcome.

So many of the Hispanics who come to the US don't have those advantages. Their education is spotty, the family is struggling to make a living, and the schools they go to aren't as helpful as they should be.

We should be doing more.....not less.

[NuttyFluffers]

7. Bilingual education works, but....

our american educational system was gutted, so naturally our bilingual education is abominable. but just because our implementation is crap doesn't mean the practice is useless. would anyone here say all mass transit is useless and we should all switch to cars just because american mass transit blows chunks? to do so isn't very wise and ignores the reality where it works, it provides helpful advantages, and it can be implemented efficiently. it's easy to have tunnel vision on this subject if you are monolingual and forget that their arguments for 'one language everything' is short-sighted or motivated by deeply buried selfishness. learn to let go the fear of lack of control, polyglottalism isn't this mt. everest blight upon mankind.

heck, my mom was raised with Spanish/Italian bilingual education, ended being fluent in both. I had childhood English/Arabic bilingual education (retain very little after 20 some years though); i'm not scarred for life, and have greater understanding of arabic mindset. and many nations in europe have extremely proficient multilingual educational institutions and realize their value as well.

in reality it can, and has, been done, effectively and efficiently. and multilanguage capability is incredibly useful, because believe it or not, there's just certain ways of thinking and seeing the world that can only be retained/understood/expressed in another language adequately. so if we have even the simplest desire to commune with our fellow man we need to learn how to live outside ourselves and see through another's eyes. and language is one of the best teachers of this valuable lesson. what may have been called the curse of Babel i consider the blessing of god to open humanity's eyes in the ways of perception and understanding.

[AP]

10. Do you really think all those German kids who could speak English weren't

using English with her at all? Every European country I've been in as a tourist, I've been able to get around without knowing the language at all because there are so many people who can speak English.

Your daughter wasn't thrown to the wolves. She had a lot of people around her who could speak English, including teachers and students. She was also in Junior HS. And I wouldn't discount the value of "German lessons on the side."

Spanish kids who come to America even younger get exactly what your daughter got WITH bilingual education.

[Star]

11. I'm a HS teacher in SoCal

Students here are given one year of ESL (English as a Second Language) classes and are then put into regular classes. By law, we don't have bilingual classes for the majority of students.

The problems with Mexican immigrants, IMO, is that they live in predominantly Mexican communities where Spanish is the only language spoken. I've had students who have been in this country for 3 or 4 years, yet they have very little English language skills because they don't speak it anywhere but in school.

It's really a problem. In class, the Mexican kids speak Spanish with each other because that's what they do outside of class. They aren't immersed in English in all aspects of their lives, just in school, so they never become proficient in English. When I've asked them not to speak Spanish in class (I teach science), they become upset and tell me Spanish is their "culture". I haven't been able to get them to understand that it is to their benefit to become proficient in english.

The majority of their parents don't speak any english at all, and don't feel a need to learn english because in their community only spanish is spoken. I struggle with this every year, trying to find a way to teach them science in english when they don't have a grasp of the language.