A Peek Into the RW Mindset: My Fight With a GOP Friend (Wedding Massacre)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

After reading the Plaid Adder's wonderful column on the wedding massacre (http://www.democraticunderground.com/plaidder/04/23.html), I thought it might be interesting to display an e-mail fight that I had with a Republican friend of mine a few days ago, in a political discussion group that we share with a few other friends. I think it provides an interesting peek into the right-wing mindset.

The background to this discussion is my sending various stories to the discussion group which provided very strong evidence, IMO, that the recent desert massacre of 40+ people was in fact a wedding, and that many women and children were killed.

DTH

--

From: Republican Friend

US disputes 40 killed Iraqis were wedding party

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3567583&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

God, I'd be shocked if some of us were actually duped by enemy propaganda.

--

From: DTH

I love how you automatically assume Iraqi women and children -- the deaths of whom are pretty much undisputed -- are the enemy.

--

From: Republican Friend

I didn't say Iraqi women and children are the enemy. I said I'd be shocked if some of us were duped by enemy propaganda. Any women or children killed in this event weren't the ones disseminating what might have been the propaganda.

I'd be especially surprised since all of us generally give our military the benefit of the doubt, especially when their word is challenged by those who could be described as enemies of the US.

--

From: DTH

I don't think the higher brass of our military has all that much credibility right now, quite frankly. Besides, the S.O.P. of the military is to immediately deny any mistakes, even though such denials are quite often demonstrated to be wrong at a later date. We initially denied we were responsible for the Afghanistan wedding massacre, too.

But I note once more for the record your standard BS innuendo about patriotism.

Women and children are dead. No one is disputing that. That tends to speak a bit louder than S.O.P. denials of responsibility.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221658,00.html

I submit that anyone who does not feel pity for Ms. Shihab -- including this Mattis asshole -- has a heart of stone.

--

From: Republican Friend

I think it's hilarious how Democrats that are cynically making a lot of noise about "supporting our troops" are willing to believe the worst about every last one of them at the first accusation against them.

If it's proven that we accidentally bombed an innocent wedding party, then I agree that it's extremely unfortunate. But we haven't, and our own soldiers are saying that they got the right target. I think automatically believing that our own soldiers are lying in a situation like this is a lot closer to disloyalty than it is to "critical thinking."

My point remains that when there is disagreement between a US and non-US source, as in this story, you will always buy the non-US side of the story, especially when it paints the US military in a bad light. Even if it is proven that this was a legitimate attack, I won't be holding my breath for you to retract your comment about "this Mattis asshole." You've already made your decision as to what happened in your mind.

Why doesn't the higher brass of our military have that much credibility right now in your opinion?

--

From: DTH

I think it's hilarious how Republicans are cynically stereotyping all Democrats with the same, tired, bullshit "unpatriotic" brush. You do it time and time again, and your elected officials do the same. The people who do that are a bunch of tired propagandists who have nothing better to do than to try to impugn their fellow Americans. And in the case of John Kerry, than to try to impugn their betters. Funny how none of the Republican chickenhawks served in Vietnam, I guess they all had something better to do with their time. It's funny how all of the Republican veterans, such as McCain, Hagel and Lugar, actually have complimentary words for Kerry, and critical words for Bush. It's funny how they don't act like Stepford Wives.

"then I agree that it's extremely unfortunate" -- gosh, that's really big of you, Republican Friend. I can feel the sympathy just dripping off of your voice. I am going to tell you my opinion: you don't really give a shit about the women and children who -- uncontestedly -- died in that attack. It's a shrug and business as usual for you. You'll instead mouth platitudes about how more people died under Saddam, and say, "Too bad, so sad." I haven't seen a goddamn thing from you which would indicate otherwise.

Well some of us actually care about innocents who are murdered, regardless of whether those innocents are American or Iraqi. And as it so happens, many more people have died of violence this past year under American rule than they did in any one of the last ten years under Saddam. Does that make Saddam any better? No. But it calls into question the current occupation, and the methods used in it.

Mattis is a fucking asshole regardless of what is borne out by this attack. Read what he said. The fact that he is an asshole is based on his words, which are ridiculous no matter who is found out to be correct. Whoever made him a spokesman is a fucking moron. The fact that many in the government and military have a tin ear as it pertains to Iraq is a given; one needs only read Mattis' words to know that beyond any doubt.

Finally, the higher brass of our military have limited credibility for many reasons, not least of which is the Abu Ghraib scandal, and the accounts of many higher officers (military or intelligence) either being there or approving of it. Until the whole scandal is aired out and resolved, there will be a cloud on the good name of many military officers. Based on what I've read, it appears those officers reach to the very highest levels.

As for believing the US military vs. accounts on the ground, here's a story for you -- along with all of the other stories which I forwarded over the weekend, which you conveniently ignored. It's now unquestionable that the US bombed a wedding in Afghanistan, and yet this was their original response:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,748300,00.html

Hmm. Notice any patterns with this incident?

But I'm sure they're all innocent, righteous and upright, and any who dare question them are unpatriotic Communists.

DTH

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. You might wish to remind him that they said the same thing

when they bombed the wedding in Afghanistan, then had to backtrack...oh and did they get it right when they bombed the Red Cross too?

[RandomKoolzip]

3. And when we bombed that group of Canadian soldiers.....

The first thing I heard about it was that it was only a rumor.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Yup

I did. None of this should be surprising to anyone who pays attention. "Truth is the first casualty of war," as the saying goes.

DTH

[prole_for_peace]

2. "it's extremely unfortunate"

what would these idiots do if this happened here or to 'muricans somewhere else (or just white people in general)? they would be screaming for blood. its all different because its "them" not "us" and we all know that "us" is worth more than "them".

and that was sarcasm.

[DoctorMyEyes]

4. Not just the Afghan wedding, what about the market?

Do you remember last year when we bombed an Iraqi market killing about 40 civilians?

First we said we didn't do it, that Saddam must have. But then a piece of the bomb with identifying numbers linking it back to us (and Raytheon) turned up - so we changed the story to "we had solid intelligence that Saddam and his two sons were meeting in a bunker under a restaurant in that area". That it was a "legitimate target" and that it was Saddam's "disregard" for his own people - using women and children as "human shields" that forced us to do this awful thing.

Of course it turned out that neither Saddam or his sons were in the area at the time - and irony of ironies - the freakin' restaurant we supposedly targeted didn't even have a damn basement, let alone a "bunker"!

I distinctly remember this because of a heartbreaking photo of a grandfather holding the lifeless body of his beautiful little granddaughter. She looked to be no more than seven years old - tops! - and she was wearing a fluffy purple jacket. And her feet were blown off...

There were lots of pics of the wounded and killed, but that one photo is just burned into my consciousness. My own grandfather was the most wonderful person I have ever known, and I can't imagine, at that age, anything being more fun or special than spending a day out with my grandfather.

edited to add link to the photo - very graphic! Don't click if you don't think you can handle it.

edited again because I didn't realize the photo would display automatically with just a URL! Sorry!
">photo

and to add links to how that story evolved - in case you want to refresh your "GOP friends" mind:

U.S. Denies Role in Baghdad Market Bombing    Posted:3.26.03
U.S. Defense Department officials on Wednesday said coalition forces did not target a Baghdad neighborhood where explosions reportedly killed at least 14 people and wounded some 30 others.


"There are recent press reports that coalition forces bombed a marketplace in Baghdad. Coalition forces did not target a marketplace nor were any bombs or missiles dropped or fired" in the northern neighborhood of Al-Shaab, Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, vice director for operations for the Joint Staff, told a Pentagon briefing.


"We don't know for a fact whether it was U.S. or Iraqi. And we can't make any assumption on either at this point," he said.

Other explanations

"We'll continue to look and see if we missed anything. But another explanation could be that triple-A or surface-to-air missile that missed its target fell back into the marketplace area," McChrystal added.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june03/market_3-26.html

The Proof: Marketplace Deaths Were Caused by a US Missile

by Cahal Milmo

 
An American missile, identified from the remains of its serial number, was pinpointed yesterday as the cause of the explosion at a Baghdad market on Friday night that killed at least 62 Iraqis.

The codes on the foot-long shrapnel shard, seen by the Independent correspondent Robert Fisk at the scene of the bombing in the Shu'ale district, came from a weapon manufactured in Texas by Raytheon, the world's biggest producer of "smart" armaments.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-02.htm

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. I Remember

The thing that really got to me about the wedding massacre -- the image that is seared into my brain -- is the two-year-old girl with a tube sticking out of her side (her liver, which needed to be drained).

:grr:

DTH

[cheezus]

5. the troops don't decide to bomb weddings

I think it's hilarious how Democrats that are cynically making a lot of noise about "supporting our troops" are willing to believe the worst about every last one of them at the first accusation against them.


No, we're critcal of the unpatriotic misleaders who are putting our troops in harms way for their own personal gain.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

12. Exactly

I am not blaming a soldier who is told to bomb a target and then does it. I am blaming the idiots who sent us into Iraq in the first place, first and foremost. After that, depending on how everything shakes out, I would probably blame the "military intelligence" that sold the wedding as a legitimate target.

DTH

[demigoddess]

6. I wish I could tell this guy and all of them that

when democrats complain about this stuff , it is not because we blame the troops, but because we know that in war dumb stupid stuff happens that should not happen. That is why we go to war only when our very survival depends on it. Not on the stupid idea that we can force our form of government on everybody on the planet. Some of these idiots actually sit around and complain that european countries have governments that are a little on the socialistic side. Do they think everybody should adhere to the principles of the republican party????

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. Again, Spot On

War must always be a last resort. There were plenty of other resorts with Iraq.

DTH

[The Magistrate]

7. Good Work, Old Friend!

Why anyone would believe a general's reports in a situation like this is beyond me. If study of history discloses one thing only, it is the mendacity of officil reports in time of war. Every word spoken by an official spokesman in war is weapon, wielded to what that official contrues to be the best interests of the war effort. This is true across all known time and space, without exception: even when the tuth is told, it is the result of calculation of its effect, and not convictions of honesty.

"The War Office keeps three sets of books: one to mislead the people, one to mislead the Government, and one to mislead themselves."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[DoveTurnedHawk]

14. Truth

The first casualty of war.

I am glad to see that you are still dispensing truth liberally, my friend.

(As opposed to this administration's constant dispensing with the truth.)

DTH

[lovedems]

8. I read an article from Buzzflash this morning (I believe it was a

reader contribution) and the headline was "It's all about the numbers". When you take how many Iraqi's died under Saddam, it is alot. However, it is over a 30 (?) year period. When you look at how many died in a year and compare that to the year we have been occupying Iraq, the numbers aren't much different.

How much lower can we sink as a nation when we resort to comparing our actions to those of Saddam and somehow justifying those actions because "they aren't as bad". You can be pretty God damned evil and still be better then Saddam. I guess this is the result of lowering expectations, something this administration has truly mastered. When expectations are low, you don't expect grand results.

[DeadHead67]

9. You act surprised . . . . .

. . . at this terribly apparent ignorance. Ignorance is an interesting word. It is no coincidence that the root word is 'ignore'.These folks 'ignore' or turn away from concrete demonstrable REALITY. This is, in my experience with these blockheads, a conscious moral(or immoral as the case may be)choice. .

[redqueen]

18. Excellent point

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

(love your nick!)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. I Think It's Pure Ideology Here

The guy is smart, he just toes (or is it tows) the Bush line on just about everything.

DTH

[Plaid Adder]

15. Errata in "Sex and Violence"

Doesn't affect the main argument, but I feel obliged to point it out: I accidentally conflated 3 different military spokespeople in my head. Kimmitt said the "bad people have parties" line, but most of the rest of this stuff came from either Mattis or an "unnamed U.S. official." Somehow in my head they all became the same person.

More details here if you want them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1670024

The Plaid Adder regrets the error,

The Plaid Adder

[KittyWampus]

16. Sadly, Many Of The Fine Officers Who Might Have Held Higher Standards

for the troops under their command were run out by Rumsfeld or quit.

We are left with a handicapped Military right now, at a time when we can least afford to have it incapacitated.

Wesley Clark stayed in the Army after VietNam to rebuild it and now we watch as it has again been evicerated.

It is the Neo-Con cabal that has abused the Military and gutted it of responsible leadership.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Clark Would Be So Key

As VP or in a position of influence in Kerry's cabinet.

DTH

[IrateCitizen]

17. Why do you hate America?

Your friend is giving quite predictable responses. People on the right wing love rabid nationalism -- it is one of the forces that I often think they live for. Granted, many of us on the left (admittedly, myself included at times) tend to adopt an equally visceral "anti-nationalism" -- that is, an immediate reaction of pushing away anything the espouses pride in one's country.

However, given the propensity of governments to lie in the service of their own aims throughout history, I'll gladly come down on the side of the cynics on this one. Personally, I adopt the line from Michael Moore -- I start out from the assumption that my government is lying, and the burden is then on them to convince me that they're telling the truth.

Obedience to authority is one of the hallmarks of the RW mindset. Your friend's responses are simply exhibiting this tendency, along with the need to characterize anything that doesn't display similar loyalty as somehow against America.

[redqueen]

19. You're right, IC, but what gets me is

why they equate not respecting the LIARS currently running things to not respecting the military? Why would they equate love of one's country with unquestioning adoration of the crooks running it into the ground is beyond me.

I think Michael Moore's position of distrust is the correct one to have, if one is to keep one's country from becoming a tyranny.

[IrateCitizen]

20. They don't respect the military -- they worship militarism

The RW mindset is rooted in the authoritarian father figure. Authority is to be obeyed, not questioned. People are to have their place and station and accept it. People are inherently immoral, and therefore must be forced to morality. War is the natural state of mankind. And so on.

People of this mindset don't respect the military as people -- they worship it as an institution. In short, they glorify militarism to the point that it becomes equated with the country itself. Therefore, if you don't support militarism, they equate it with not supporting America.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. Good Post

I'm not quite as apprehensive of every government pronouncement as you are, although certainly a healthy amount more skeptical than people like my friend.

DTH

[xchrom]

21. lovely turn of phrase

and once again republicans expose their narrow way of thinking -- the same thinking that got us into this debacle -- the same thinking that is swelling al quaida's numbers today.

automatically assume the worst about anybody who offers a broad thought out overview of the military's behavior or their motives and that makes them a bad american

it's a wonder by their own thoughts and feelings that the founders of this america they crow so loudly about -- aren't denounced as traitors.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. I Totally Agree

They try to use patriotism as a weapon, to cow people and intimidate them. I say, fuck that.

And thanks for the compliment!

DTH

[Sapphocrat]

22. Only one thing about this exchange surprises (and puzzles) me...

You two are friends?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. I've Known Him for Years

He's a good guy when we don't talk politics.

DTH