A vote for Nader is a character issue!

[trumad]

Ahhh the messed up mind of a Naderite!

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. How would you feel if I posted something about

"Ah, the lock-step mind of DLC voters"?

You can be pro-Kerry without trashing Nader or people who believe in him.

[sangh0]

2. True, but it's not as much fun!

"You can be pro-Kerry without trashing Nader or people who believe in him."

[aquart]

3. Ah, but can you be a Democrat?

Nader is running as a spoiler. The only impact he can possibly have is to throw the election to Bush. Again.

If that's what you believe in, why are you here?

Me, I have nothing but contempt for Nader and his voters. Anyone who is so insular as not to be able to see what's at stake here.... like I said, nothing but contempt.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I understand your concern.. it's why I am checking off Kerry's name

but my point is, why trash people for having a different opinion? What good can it possibly bring?

(And if you really can't stand spoiled elections, get on your Reps's backsides about ranked voting. Cause third parties and independent candidates are not some "trend" that is going to go away.)

[Liberal Veteran]

8. I don't have the luxury of playing nice nice games right now....

I am a gay male and my rights are under attack by this administration constantly. This is about fighting for my survival and basic rights as a human being and I guarantee you that if Bush is elected to a second term, I might as well sign the papers to be relegated to second class citizenship permanently, because that is what will happen.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar

You'll catch more voters for Kerry with reasoned logic than with vitriol and name-calling. Your post above falls into category one. You won't win all Greens over to voting for Kerry with it, but you'll get some. Certainly more than if you called them names, you know?

But even so, when this election is all said and done... we may still have the $hrub. If he can steal one election he can steal another. God help us all. :(

[LoZoccolo]

13. Reasoned logic has failed to work with these people.

Either Bush* or Kerry will win blah blah blah blah. I don't even want to finish the sentence because they already know it.

[LoZoccolo]

10. Why trash people for having a different opinion?

Because we have a different opinion. One that's not going to wreck stuff worse than it needs to be.

Duh.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. I have no sympathy, empathy, or kinship with Nader voters.

I don't care what their justification for it is. They can claim to be progressive all they want, but the truth is they are just whiny selfish children who are mad because a particular candidate doesn't echo their views 100 percent.

[Pastiche423]

25. 100 percent?

Try 10%. And that is being generous.

[sandnsea]

6. If???

Maybe you haven't personally posted such a thread, but there sure isn't any shortage of lock-step DLC sheeple threads for you to join in on.

[Old and In the Way]

12. Can you direct me to the Green Underground?

I'd like to admonish Greens for dissing Democrats.

Your defense of Nader is quite weak. Don't speak ill of Ralph because it's not nice. Bulloney. Our big mistake was not understanding how his running in 2000 help get Bush selected.

If you don't like anti-Nader threads here, why not ignore them?

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. I would except that I think it's important to round up more voters for

Kerry.

Hence the reason why I made my point. You can't get a Green or a Socialist or whatever to cross over and vote for Kerry by calling him/her names.

[tandot]

7. Nader suffers from the illusion that more former Bush voters

will now vote for him and that he will not take any votes away from Kerry. I've heard that Republicans are organizing to make sure that he'll get on the ballot of each State so Kerry will lose the election.
I bet some staunch Bush supporters have promised Nader that many Republicans would vote for him just to make sure that he'll stay in the race. Neo-cons are such great liars.

I think having more than two parties is great. I can agree with most of Nader's point. However, this is bigger than just me or him. America's future is being voted on in November. If Bush gets 4 more years, this Country is screwed. The future for our children will be bleak and we'll have more terrorism and wars. The environment will be destroyed as corporation will decide environmental policies (as they already do). Many poor people already work two jobs to support their family and to pay their taxes, which than is given to the wealthy.

[LoZoccolo]

15. Thing is...

...I haven't seen one poll that demonstrates he'll take more votes away from Bush*! Not one! I've seen polls that suggest the opposite. So after so many polls if Nader is still saying that, he's lying.

[sendero]

38. His lies...

... make the GOP look like a bunch of pikers.

[yolatengo]

26. more than 2 parties

...is a dumb idea (no offense) *unless* we get rid of the "winner take all" way our
elections are run (never going to happen; neither D's nor R's want that).

Consider these hypothetical 4 districts:

District 1: 500000 D, 500001 R, 0 Green = Republican WIN
District 2: 999998 D, 1 R, 1 G = Democratic WIN
District 3: 333333 D, 333334R, 333333 G = Republican WIN
District 4: 450000 D, 499999R, 50001 G = Republican WIN

Total D votes = 2283331
Total R votes = 1333335
Total G votes = 383335

Total SEATS IN THE LEGISLATURE? Dem=1, Rep=*3*, Gr=*0*!
Dems get almost TWICE as many votes as the Rep, but they
get 2 less seats. A "Tom DeLay" gets EVERYTHING he wants,
Democrats get jack sh*t and Greens get to whine for 4 more
years about how there's no difference between the parties.

After all that's gone on in this country in 4yrs it just seems to
me that Nader supporters are petulant children, mostly unaffected
directly by Bush's policies who think the whole USA will just run
into their arms once things get so awful here we Throw The Bums Out.

Meanwhile, some of us are concerned that the YEARS and possible
bloody CIVIL WAR that will probably be required for The Nader Dream
to reach fruition may not be healthy for us, but we're just labeled
sellouts to "DLC" slaves like Kerry. Well, I've seen Kerry's record
at vote-smart.org and he's a f*ckin' LIBERAL except for a handful
of votes. Anyone who gets an *F* from the NRA, a *0* from the
Family Research Council, a *102* from the AFL-CIO, and 95+
from PIRG (NADER's GROUP!) cannot be called a 'centrist'.

I've been registered Independent since '84 and I can see that the
REPUBLICANS are the ones clandestinely keeping Nader afloat. Maybe
the egotist could run for SOMETHING (and win) before he runs AGAIN
(and loses, taking the Dems out in the process) for the highest office
in our land? Not all of us have the luxury of being ideological purists
(though 95 out of 100 from PIRG is kinda funny...anyone ever notice
that in a google search of "pirg nader" about the first 40 or so hits
are NEGATIVE? It's almost like there is some google bombing by
conservatives! Who also, ironically, send Nader tons of $$$$$$).

Bigby

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Election reform can happen

It's happening now at the municipal level. It's happening at the college level. Eventually there will be ripples from this. But it could take a few generations to get election reform in this manner.

Hopefully, enough people will get ticked off (and see how many folks ream Nader for 2000 around here) that they'll start demanding election reform NOW.

[ulysses]

11. ...

[depakid]

17. and

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BillZBubb]

14. The stakes are so high this election...

...that anyone who even talks of voting for anyone but Kerry is an idiot or a fool.

[GreenArrow]

16. the fun will come

a few years down the road when Kerry has been in office and the only thing that has changed for the better is the tone. Same train, same track, same destination, different engineer.

I absolutely detest Kerry, but will likely vote for him, simply because Bush is infinitely more vile. That's the only reason. Either way, a corporatist will be at the throttle. With Bush, we'll only go down the shitter a little faster; we're going down either way.

At some point, people of both parties will realize that Nader, flawed as he is, was right about some things, and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. Of course, Dennis Kucinich, a Democrat is saying the same things as Nader, and getting one or two percent of the vote in most primaries. That kind of says it all about the electorate, which continues to want to have its cake and eat it too. The country is decadent and spoiled, ignorant and willfully so, stuffed up and insufferable with pride, and pride they say, goeth before a fall. While there is nothing wrong with hoping that a Kerry presidency can re-awaken the better angels of this country's nature, it may be something of a naive belief.

[ibegurpard]

19. stupid thread

I might agree that supporting a third party this election cycle would not be wise but that doesn't change the fact that this is a stupid fucking thread.

[jpgray]

20. There's a respectful way to disagree with Nader supporters

This is not it. Many of these 'messed up minds' will be voting for Kerry this year, but still support what they believe Nader stands for. I really don't understand feeling the need or having the inclination to yell insults at these people.

[ulysses]

23. trumad thinks he's accomplishing something.

I suppose he is, in his own way.

[MadHound]

22. If you want to pull the fangs out of the Nader camp,

Then try that tried and true Democratic tactic, compromise. Take a couple of big planks out of the Nader/Green platform, like, oh say, withdrawing from Iraq and Universal Health Care, and make the part of the Democratic platform. Most people are smart enough to vote in their own self interests, and if they see they can get part of their wish list by voting Dem, as opposed to none voting Nader/Green, they'll pull that Democratic lever. Hell, even FDR did this in his first re-election bid, and won. The two planks he nicked off the Socialist party? Social Security and Unemployment Insurance.

[trumad]

28. I watch, I listen, I read ...

They slam me with the trolling remarks, they indicate that I am a errr..usual suspect. and thennnnnn they try to label me a DLC'er... OOOOOO that hurts..:eyes: LOL

Oh...and I ain't Carlos... Carlos was toO sweet to tell the Naderites that they are a bunch of fucking morons! I'm not! Every once in awhile I get the urge to remind my fellow Democrats that Basketball Ralph is a third party canidate who wants to take votes away from my canidate and apply them for himself. Well God Bless Ralph Nader. It is his right to do so because our Constitution allows it. I wouldn't give a shit if there were 30 parties running for the President of the United States. That's what Democracy is all about.

NOW with that said.... I am entitled as a Democrat to blast the fuck out of those oppossing parties! I do it to the Repukes, I do it to the Reformers, I do it to the Greens, I'll do it to any party that opposes my party and if they don't like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT!

The comments up above are quite funny... Honey and Vinegar..ROTFLMAO

Fuck Ralph Nader! Fuck his supporters and fuck any canidate who runs against John F. Kerry!

This is not a reply to post 22.

[MadHound]

29. Well, you can rant and rave friend, but when all is said and done

Is all of that noise really productive? Does it bring in anymore votes for this fall? Sure, it makes you feel better, but a rant like that drives away more voters than it brings in.

Instead why not put the work in to do something constructive, to bring in more voters. You know, like a said above, compromise. Take a couple of planks from the Greens. You do that and you will be bringing in more votes from self interested liberals of all stripes.

But just raving about third parties only vents steam, and alienates potential allies.

Think about it.

[trumad]

30. potential allies?

LOL... I don't think I want the type of allie that would vote for Ralph Nader in this coming election... Because if you even consider voting for Ralph in 2004 then you're a fucking idiot and quite frankly, I don't hang around fucking idiots. Why would I waist my beautiful mind trying to talk a dumb ass Naderite into voting Bush out of office?

[MadHound]

33. Now really friend, how beautiful can that mind be

When it is so hate filled that it is willing to sacrifice the long term good just out of some misguided sense of spite?

Sorry friend, but we need every vote we can get, and compromise is one way we can not only pull in the Nader/Green votes, but also a large number of non-voters. If you want to rant and rave against potiential allies fine, do it on your own time, but don't go out alienating people just because they have different views on life and politics than you do. This is a tactic of exclusion that is common in the Republican party. Democrats are better than that friend, act like it.

[Imperialism Inc.]

36. Then by your own logic, if Kerry loses you should

blame yourself too.

I mean you think anyone that helps Bush win should be blamed and you fall squarely in that category when you tell people to fuck off and vote for Nader instead of trying to tell them why they shouldn't.

So if Bush wins I know who I will be blaming first. Naderites will come second on my list to the obnoxious assholes who drive votes away because they want to throw childish fits. There are several on here that have made me think "Ugh, do I really have to vote in the same party as these assholes. Ugh"

[ibegurpard]

40. Babs, is that you?

:hi:

[leftofthedial]

31. it's an issue for characters

who aren't smart enough to participate meaningfully in the political system.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

32. This is a perfect example of why the dems are out of power

The left already feels unwanted and under appreciated. This is like saying ah voting for al sharpton is a chracter issue. Nader speaks for and to a lot of of true liberals and moderate republicans, although i am not a nader supporter, i am a liberal that tries to be in unison with the left, not destroy them. Its sickening to see supposed liberals bash nader for running, if he speaks for voters--last time i checked-- we were a democracy. I don't care if someone ran from them extasy party and got a million votes, if the dems want the million votes they will have to take a position on extasy. Also a lot of nader supporters are young people, and do you think its smart for thier first impression of dems to be "you are an idoit"

[silverpatronus]

34. thank you...

you just said succintly and calmly what i've been trying to get across here for months now. NADER-BASHING HURTS THE PARTY! if the democrats want to win, they'd better embrace the left before it's too late, because after listening to kerry's plans to be new boss, same as the old boss, nader's sounding mighty good. if kerry picked up even one or two green/progressive planks, nader would be a non-issue. look, he doesn't even need to talk to nader, he can get it from kucinich! he (and the DLC) just need to realise that taking the left for granted is going to hurt them. in addition, calling nader supporters, leftists and progressives 'idiots' is not exactly going to endear them to the democratic party cause. the party needs the left's votes. time for the party to earn them.

[Imperialism Inc.]

37. But, but, it is so so vital that a Democrat take over and escalate

Bush's failed policies. And Kerry is the only man for the job.

[The Magistrate]

39. Nonesense, Mr. Patronus

It is apologists and supporters for Wrecker Nader who damage the Party. Mr. Trumad is correct in suggesting these do so in many cases for no sound political reason, but as a matter of self-indulgence and irresponsibility. The fact is that the outcome of any appreciable number of votes being cast by leftists for Wrecker Nader and not Sen. Kerry in November will be the triumph of the criminals of the '00 Coup at the polls. Maintaining in office the very worst elements of reaction in our polity is a damned odd way of demonstrating one's attachment to left principles. Only persons who do not consider the consequences of their actions could adopt such a course, and urge it for others.

The course you and others urge on the Democratic Party at this time is similarly bankrupt. One of Wrecker Nader's current caterwauls is that Sen. Kerry and the Party ought to corral the portion of centerist and center-rightist Democrats who may vote for the criminals of the '00 Coup: this is a laudable goal, but the means necessary to do it would certainly alienate those on the farthest left who complain already the Party is not doing enough to woo them, and what would be necessary to do the latter would certainly damage any effort to corral the former bloc. That bloc, of course, is several times larger than the left purists who posture towards Wrecker Nader.

What is necessary is for persons on the left to show some political self-discipline, and keep their eyes on the need of the hour: the routing of the worst elements of reaction in our polity from office.

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disasterous and the unpalatable."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[silverpatronus]

41. it's ms.

and i respectfully disagree with you. people keep trying to reconcile leftist/progressive ideas with the status quo system and then wonder why they don't work. they don't work because they're not MEANT to work with the corrupt system, they're meant to CHANGE the system. forgive me if i'd rather not have to choose between the disastrous and the unpalatable.

and you still haven't explained how attacking leftists/progressives will bring them around to the mainstream party's way of thinking. as the intelligent person which i know you are, you must at least accept that insulting the left does nothing to garner their votes for the party.

[sangha]

44. The fallacy in your logic

is your assertion that there are many on the left who are offended by the Dems attacking them and Nader. However, the last election shows that this "multitude" doesn't add up to anything more than 3% of the electorate. I'll never understand why the DNC's refusal to lose the majority in order to pursue a minority is considered "offensive" to leftists

[silverpatronus]

46. 3%...

in 2000. 4 years ago. not to mention the disaffected left who simply didn't turn out to vote. i'll never understand the DNC's willingness to underestimate the left...never.

[Jack_Dawson]

35. Nader = Bush

Vote for Nader, you're voting for Bush. It's that simple. Blind ideology has no place in this election. Sorry.

[0007]

42. btt

[Forkboy]

45. ahhh the messed up mind of a DUer

:silly: