An Abut Ghraib Photo We Didn't See on the Front Page of the NYTs

[plurality]

Can't directly link the photo so here's a link to it. This should do wonders for US cred in the Arab world.

http://counterpunch.org/abughraib05242004.html

[CulturalNomad]

1. Oh what a surprise - also who is John Israel?

[Must_B_Free]

48. Hate to say I told you so, but

once again I called it right.

[Malva Zebrina]

2. Photo here, but what does it mean?

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Hmmm will have to look for the symbology

I fear we are looking at apocalyptic simbology.

The Scorpion makes its apearances in the last days, if you get my drift

Notice where the stinger is pointing...

And yes this is based on a long ago reading of the book of Isaiah and the book of revelations... don't worry, for reasons too distant from religion, I have to delve back into those two texts, and Daniel, don't forget Daniel (and the Baghram Vita) So will look for the symbols in there....

hmmm, this is actually interesting... also if you have a friend in law enforcement, any gang unit, have him or her take a looksie... this crap has also apeared with street gangs.

I do remember the scorpion from my Medic years, as that of one particular Southern Cali gang.

[Must_B_Free]

56. possible reference

It was inscribed on the banners of Dan as the emblem of the tribe whose founder was "a serpent by the way." When thus shown it was as a crowned Snake or Basilisk. Novidius said that it was "the scorpion or serpent whereby Pharaoh, King of Egypt, was enforced to let the children of Israel depart out of his country".

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Scorpio.html

However - not the contradiction - it is expressly unjewish to get a tattoo. You can't be buried with with clean jews then.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. As the Lovos came out

this is a gang marking... not Israeli... I know some HAVE THE ABSOLUTE NEED TO BELIEVE THIS.

[RapidCreek]

74. The Scorpion symbolizes Cheshvan

That'd be my guess anyway...

RC

[KoKo]

166. He could be a Scorpio Astrological sign and a Jewish guy who wanted

the flag tattooed on his arm. Doesn't mean he isn't didn't relish torturing prisoners no matter who he is or what he has on his arm.

And he likes Los Lobos.....:shrug:

[RapidCreek]

169. Hehehehehehehe

really...

Funny no one has asked how many of the torturers were Baptists or any other Christian denomination, ain't it?

RC

[Zhade]

170. I'm not familiar with Baghram Vita, can you sketch a quick outline?

For what it's worth, Baghram Air Force Base is in Afghanistan...

[aquart]

8. It means Israelis were among the mercenary "intelligence" people.

Obviously.

An American soldier would NOT wear a foreign flag.

This lets George and Rummy and the entire white Christian establisment off the hook now, right? The Jews did it. The Jews always do it.

Mission accomplished. George is a pawn of the wicked Jews. Whatever shall we do to save him?

Usually this stuff shows up after midnight. Isn't it lovely in the broad daylight.

P.S. Ever occur to you that he was hired because he could speak Arabic?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Nah I have seen American soldiers with foreign flaggs on

them... I still remember the boy we picked down after getting in a fight with the locals... US Army Ranger with a British Flag on his upper arm. Boy was born and raised in New York.

So DON'T Assume this is an Israeli soldier

[DrBB]

4. Interesting. Is that a known insignia?

Israeli flag with what looks like a stylized scorpion underneath--looks like a military design of some kind, like a battalion insignia. Anybody know?

[grasswire]

7. I hope someone can decode this

Really.

It's important.

[aquart]

10. Really? Why?

Don't just imply. Spell it out. Come on, I dare you.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

171. Why, obviously grasswire is anti-Semitic!

To quote your own words:

"Don't just imply. Spell it out. Come on, I dare you."

:eyes:

[plurality]

15. I'm not sure

But I wouldn't be surprised if it means the wearer is a member of one of the Israeli intelligence services. I've heard that some of the 'contractors' were either Mossad or the foreign equivalent of Shin Bet.

[ArkDem]

62. Jewish suicide squad.

See Life of Brian.

[GoBlue]

5. Here it is

[arcane1]

12. what does the red text mean?

"lovos" or something like that..?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Wolf's in Spanish

even if mispelled

The correct spelling is Lobos.

This is Lovos.

Seen this before, and you guys are making a molehill out of nothing... this is NOT an Israeli, but a home boy... actually a barrio boy.

[arcane1]

18. I'm not really making anything out of it..

just wondering about the word... wolf, scorpion, etc.. jsut an odd combo I guess

how do you know this is a mis-spelled word, and not just sone other word instead? Seems kind of odd that he'd get a tattoo and not even spell the thing correctly

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You are dealing with a home boy

they mispell things on a regular basis

I spent ten years workng the streets of Tijuana, as a Medic, and
have seen pretty odd spelling of words... it is also a way to
throw the gringo cops in San Diego off. Especially those who do
not speak Spanish.

They are also idyosincratic.

I tell you, folks are making a mole hill out of this...

[Lisa0825]

112. b and v have an almost identical pronunciation in Spanish, and

I have seen many native Spanish speakers switch them out.

I have no idea about the meaning of the pic, but just wanted to toss that in as possibly relevant info.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. Yep thanks

I know

in the streets it is where it is switched not among the upper classes


As it were

[plurality]

20. the last letter isn't an s

It looks similar to a delta. Here's a link to the hebrew alphabet.

It looks like bet, or nun.

http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. It is not hebrew

and one more thing, YOU THINK Mossad would be THAT STUPID? Not at all

They woudl not make THAT begginer's mistake...

I know you want it to be hebrew, it is NOT Hebrew, not the fancy alphabet or the cursive alphabet

[plurality]

25. I don't want it to be anything

But s's have curves and the last symbol or letter in that writing has no curves in it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Look at the blow up

the flag has the S starting in it.

I know some people REALLY want to find the Shin Beit (which is INTERNAL SECURITY) to be in Iraq, and the Iraqis also NEED to believe this. If could not be us... really (sniker)

Oh and the Mossad has external teams, and IF they were there... they are too much of a profesional outfit to make what would qualify as a beginers mistake. (For the record, I doubt the Mossad was there... as they are too busy dealign wtih threats that want to kill them, no need in adding to it, the Iraqis believe it, and sadly so do many Americans)

reality is, this was OUR PEOPLE who CHOSE TO DO THIS, and we were capable of DEVELOPING the same techniques to pry information. We have been doing this FOR YEARS, no help needed. IN fact we train OUR OWN PEOPLE in how to survive as long as possible, under torture conditions.

Hence if we TRAIN OUR PEOPLE, you think WE CANNOT DO IT?

By the way... YOU THINK Mossad and Shin Beit was also involved with Negroponte's dirty dealings in Central America? Just asking...

[plurality]

36. it could be a z, still doubt s

And I know Shin Bet is internal security, that's why I said, the external equivalent, because the name escapes me, and it's not Mossad.

As far as Mossad, being too professional to do something stupid like this. I'm not one of those people that think Mossad is some omnipotent power directing everything under cover of shadow, they fuck up, like every human. They certainly haven't changed their 'moving company' cover, no matter how many times that's been compromised.

And some US military recieved training in Israel before the war, so it's possible it could be a US soldier who recieved it in Israel during that training.

And no I don't think Mossad or Shin Bet was involved in Latin America, but this is in their back yard so they'd have a vested interest in being part of the proceedings, which they have, as much as Israel and the US try and hide that fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Look at some wonderful

Gang symbols I just posted

You will be amazed at how many times the Star of David apears (and yes even the full flag that I have seen)

I guess the 13 year old kid I picked up in TJ with a flag, who was a member of a So Cal Gang, was a member of Mossad or Shin Bet.

(by the way, Mossad has had operations in Latin America on and off over the years, just in case you were wondering)

[hexola]

Here's a blow up of the tatto

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Thanks LOVOS

and no that is NOT hebrew, at ALL, none of it.

The S starts inside the flag, you can even see it curving into the flag

[graham67]

34. Does that look photoshopped or what?

Look at the marks on the skin around the tattoo.

[hexola]

35. Not likely photoshopped...

Folks if you haven't done a lot of image editing - stay away from these kinds of speculations...they make us sound silly.

I dont actually know - but what you are citing is not evidence of anything other than the artifacts of jpg compression...

Dont worry - the graphics DUdes are watching....

[Cheswick2.0]

55. if you didn't say it then you don't sound silly

I think people will continue to speculate not matter what, so why not relax?

[plurality]

39. yeah that's a good one.

Everything's photoshopped. In fact there really isn't a president Bush, we're actually run by squid-like creatures and they just photoshop Bush into all the newspapers and edit into TV broadcasts to keep people from finding out. :eyes:

[John_H]

75. That's the worst photoshopping I've seen in a while.

In, fact, I doubt it's photoshopped since even a novice would use the lasso, not a box, to cut out and paste the flag to avoid the obvious, well...square in the close-up. No effort was made to feather the pasted image, to mask and copy the original arm skin tone, or even to smudge the verical lines of the box or make the ink on the "tat" the slightest bit transparent.

My favorite part in the one-clawed scorpion. Why not just erase the scorpion and replace it with whtever you want. LOL!

Man, I'm going to think of some product to sell DU tinfoilers. At least I won't have to work very hard at marketing.

[alfredo]

163. Looks like a skull with the legs forming the teeth.

Either that or two horses fucking.

It can go either way.

[hexola]

22. I have to go along with LOVOS ...

Looks like the top of the "S" wanders into the Blue of the flag...so its not as apparent...

It's is definitely a homemade tattoo.

Im not sold on the mispelling part though...

[Alerter_]

161. look like "LOVOL" (with the last "L" a mirror image)

making it a palendrome, right?

[hexola]

172. Examine the enlargement

and then get back to us...

[StaggerLee]

6. hey folks

I saw this picture on either MSN or Yahoo in one of their slideshows on the prison sometime last week and the caption claimed that he was a prisoner at the camp. It never said anything about him being a guard.

Maybe someone will be able to clear this up?

[JetJaguar]

177. AP source info

**ONE OF TWELVE PHOTOS BY JOHN MOORE** A prisoner, who said he was a Moroccan Jew, shows off his tattoos at the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq, late Saturday, May 8, 2004. Military police said that he was being housed in a private cell, instead of one of the large tent compounds outside, to protect him from other prisoners, because of his religion. (AP Photo/John Moore)
Location BAGHDAD, Iraq
Creation Date 05/08/2004 00:00:00
Submit Date 05/09/2004 12:32:31
Credit Associated Press AP
Slug
Object Name IRAQ INSIDE ABU GHRAIB PRISON
Photographer JOHN MOORE Staff
Caption Writer JBM MS SEP
Special Instructions ONE OF TWELVE PHOTOS BY JOHN MOORE
Negative Number
Image Number 7273678 (002U6)
Trans reference Number NY211

[ret5hd]

9. hmmm...star of david...scorpion...

and (in hebrew?) the letter LOVO(backwards)L.

any translation of that word?

[hexola]

13. I enlarged it a bit and thought it perhaps said <OVO>

Those might not be L's - but perhaps some brackets...

< OVO >

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Sorry that ain't Hebrew

I read Hebrew....


Look for GANG markings

[plurality]

17. but why would gangs incorporate the Israeli flag in their insignia?

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. For the same reason they have incorporated

swastikas, the same reason they have incorporated crosses

The same reason I have seen the Jack, the Mexican Flag, I could go
on.

Gangs do things that you and I cannot understand nor are meant to understand.

But now that I can see the Lovos marking, that is a definite So Cal gang... a definite one. The guard may have put that in there AFTER
he got to Iraq or BEFORE... if you think I am off, ASK any gang unit.

The database for them is available to any police gang investigation unit, and should be available to the military. Now whether they will share it with you depends on your police department.

[graham67]

26. Yep...

The Star of David is definitely incorporated into some gang symbols.

[hexola]

64. That I believe - but this is the entire flag...

I can see some dummies using the star without know what it meant...but the entire flag?

[salin]

27. so I do a search on Lovos, Lovos Gang, Ovos, and Ovos Gang

most fruitful hit (enjoy)

http://www.aveseovos.com.br/

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. wrong search parameters

http://www.velocity.net/~acekc/gangsign.htm

http://www.local6.com/news/2543213/detail.html

http://www.velocity.net/~acekc/gangsymbols.htm

http://www.edpaschke.com/cow.html

http://www.polksheriff.org/library/gangs/identifying.html

These websites will give you an introduction... and you will quickly notice that the star of david is ever present as well... and yes I have seen it as a flag as well.

[arcane1]

41. thanks, I'd be interested in reading more about the Lovos gang

but I can't find anything on them

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Try Lobos, or los lobos

and Southern California.

You may also want to talk to the police, the gang unit. they may have something on them.

My contact with those boys was as ... patients on and off... usually after a bad drug trade

It is also a famous music group... that will come up most likely on a search... try the police

[arcane1]

44. you don't have any info on them?

what about Lovos vs Lobos? They are the same gang? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. From years in EMS yes they are the same gang

That is why it struck me as ahem, familiar.

I stopped working in EMS about six years ago... but boy I
do remmeber them as a less than friendly bunch, even to us
the Medics who scraped them from the pavement.

[arcane1]

49. any links?

I can't find anything on a gang by either name

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Here is one

http://home.earthlink.net/~rguevara/alternatelobos.htm

I posted under here is a jewell

[hexola]

54. Nice, any references to "Lovos" (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Only if you go into Police Intelligence

databases, that one I have not been able to find, but I have seen
that spelling before...

Try Orange County, Sheriffs, LA PD, San Diego PD, San Diego Sheriffs, or if you speak Spanish the Gang Unit in Tijuana, or Rosarito.

[arcane1]

59. why is this a jewell?

'lovos' is nowhere in the text, there is mention of politicians addressing a gang problem, and the title of the article is 'Los Lobos'

nothing there about that being the name of a gang, by either spelling

:shrug:


I'm lost

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I guess I can't help there

Again you will have to try the cops.

Or university experts.

Unfortunately the gang world is very secretive and most gangs do NOT
post their web sites... something about police intelligence units and the FBI.

To do ANY research on gangs is extremely difficult.

That article is the most you will find and the spelling of the gang will be correct in the paper. Strike that to reporters penchant for correct reporting

There are some good books on gangs put out by UCLA and UCSD, but for the most part, you will have to continue this with police gang units. Oh and they tend to be tight about it, for good reasons

[arcane1]

66. the "lobos" in that article was unrelated to gang names

it was referring to the politicians as wolves

irrelevant info

I'm going back to square 1, this was a blind alley

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Consult the cops

they MAY help

The gang is real in So Cal

Here is a list of known gangs in So Cal, though a tad dated...

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/ganglandexpress/index.html

You will notice, if you know spanish, some are mispelled

[arcane1]

70. you made the claim

and I have to do the footwork?

yeah right

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Here you go

full list

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/ganglandexpress/index.html

And what is YOUR experience with gangs?

Again you want to believe this is Mossad, go for it...

One consequence of this war is that the left and the right now beleive that the International Jew is behind every damn rock... well last time that believe was all over the place was the 1930s, and we know how that movie played, don't we?

[hexola]

76. Can you direct us to a link about LOVOS?

In that site...I cant find anything about LOVOS...

Lots of "LOCOS" but no "LOVOS"

Is there a reference to LOVOS?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. I gave you the links I could find,

I knwo they are for real as I have seen those marks before

Now this is YOUR CHOICE, do some more research and most of it will be OFF line, or don't. I particularly do not care any more...


I know what I know... from the back of ambulances... over many years

[hexola]

86. with no references to LOVOS...you have nothing...(nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. And you will not do the basic research,

so sad, this is a so cal gang... whether you like it or not

This is NOT an israeli

Go talk to your lcoal gang unit, I am sure they will enlighten you, if you wish that

[bhunt70]

104. your links seem bogus and have nothing to do with the subject at hand

So you are basically speculating also.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Unfortunately I am not

there is precious little on gang info on line...

ASK your LOCAL POLICE GANG UNIT.

Gangs do not post home pages, something about know thy enemy you can defeat him, they like to keep it off the web. They do understand this.

There is far more, Gangs change their names on a regular basis... as injuctins come down from courts.

But hey, I know nothing, have never met a gang memeber in my life, have never seen a gang member in my life, have never treated a gang memmber in my life, nor do I know a thing about what I am talking about... ten years of working the streets... but you are right, I know nothing... and I admit I know as much as I could learn and it was precious little... there is a reason for it.


But seems asking you to go CHECK THIS with a local gang unit is too much, or find any work from UCLA Schools of Public Heatlh (Drugs mostly) or the Sociology Department for the culture.

I am NOT asking you to take my word, just to do the basic research needed.

If I wanted you to take my word I would NOT be telling you where to go find far more... now would I?

But that thing is NOT the IDF making a children's mistake.

[arcane1]

please show me where I said I want to believe it's Mossad

ad hominem attacks aren't helping

I never claimed to have experience w/gangs. You expressed certainty that this is a gang tatto and provided nothing to back it up, except for putting words in my mouth that I did not say

I was just curious what the text meant, that is all. Save the attacks for people who deserve it, please

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Well sorry, I gave yuou links to gang

markings

There is NOT MUCH on the web for good reasons, mostly police Intelligenc Units like to keep it that way.

I know does not make sense to you, but that is the way it is.

So the only way you will be able to really delve furhter into it is to ask the local gang unit, AND to read some books... most of the research was been put out by UCLA Sociology Professors.

[arcane1]

101. you provided links with no relevant information whatsoever

can you quote one of these books?

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Here is one

REVIEW: Gangsta In The House
Title: Gangsta In The House
Author: Knox, Mike © 1995
Reference: ISBN: 1-879094-46-0

This book attempts to describe street gang culture. It also provides an explaination for the motives and psycology of gang members. Explains the basic genus of gangs in the U.S. Gives a descritpion of how new members are recruited.

The first half of this book does a good job explaining a lot about the nature of gangs, such as their distinctive graffiti and the strict dress code. In the second half, the author gets more philosophical and tries to point to some cures to the problem. An important element of his thinking is that our culture (for many reasons) has abandoned "dispiline" in raising kids. In effect, he says that since socal standards are not being enforced, the gangs supplant this role in the lives of youngsters. As a result our youngsters seek out gang membership for the displine they are not receiving elsewhere.

He does not attempt to validate or criticize our social standards. Instead he makes a good point that right or wrong, they atleast offered the children some standard in which to judge their success or failure in society. As our country continues to preach toleration and subjectivism (my words), children have no guidance of right and wrong. The gang fills this role by enforcing strict dress codes, verbal expression, and an automatic way of judging people.

http://www.stauffercom.com/library/gith.html

There is more if you care to do a search

I am done... you think I am full of it, so be it, this is just an Internet Board and some people in this country DO NEED to believe in all kinds of tin foil theories

Here is a free hint, and this is NO TINFOIL, ther eare gangs in the US Military... and gee golly surprsie, surprsie, this photo is of a gang member...

[hexola]

113. And still not a single reference to LOVOS!!!

Dont you get it? - we don't doubt your basic theory...maybe it is a gang...but you can't document any references "LOVOS" - so keep looking...

[arcane1]

117. don't you get it? Supporting this user's claims is OUR job

:eyes:

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcane1]

125. yes, I said all of that, yeah right

you have lost all credibilty now, calling me Rush because I don't believe what you say. Then exaggerate and distort what I DID say to make it seem absurd

YOU made the claim

YOU back it up

that's how it works here, in case you didn't know

all you gave were a bunch of links that have NOTHING to do with this


here is a question: Is an American with an Israeli flag tatto somehow safer in Iraq than an Israeli with the same tattoo?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. No, I beleive that those who were in charge ordered

those crimes to be commited.

And ANYBODY, even you, can commit those crimes under the right
conditions.

Nice warm fuzzy huh?

But you still refuse to do some of the work. I dare you to go ask the cops... how hard can this be?

Back up what I told you. If I were Rush I would tell you TRUST ME, I told you, go back it up... CHECK WITH THE AUTHORITIES on the subject. If you are close to UCLA, check with their mental health or Sociology departments.

[Virginian]

174. Try LOMOS

[hexola]

175. Whoa...nice take...LOMOS...

I can see the "M" as part of each "O" with what I took for a "V"...since it is a tattoo, we have to allow for some artistic license...so LOMOS would appear to be a legit contender...

[arcane1]

116. irrelevant, no reference to lobos or lovos in this link either

And why should I have to do the research to back up your claims, anyway? That's YOUR job. I'm perfectly willing to believe that this is some gang-related tattoo, but your insults, scorn, and ad hominem attacks on DUers here, added to the complete lack of any verification of your claims, has ruined your credibility

others on this thread could be asking you for links to prove that Israel is NOT involved in Iraq, if they were to play your game this way. Notice they are not.

perhaps you would "care" to do a search that has something, anything, to support your claim?

[Cheswick2.0]

65. the only reference to lobos here was Los Lobos

Its a music group from the 70s.

[hexola]

105. SPANISH TRASLATION : "LOVOS"

Lobos : Wolves

Locos: Crazy People

Lovos : Lovos

There seems to be no such word in the Spanish lexicon...

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. IT IS MISPELLED ON PURPOSE

[hexola]

115. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. GO AKS YOUR LOCAL POLICE INTELLIGENCE UNIT

I am sure that is TOO MUCH TO ASK from you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. GO AKS YOUR LOCAL POLICE INTELLIGENCE UNIT

I am sure that is TOO MUCH TO ASK from you.

[Lisa0825]

126. repost from above: ba nd v sound almost identical in Spanish

I have seen many native Spanish speakers switch them out.

I have no idea about the meaning of the pic, but just wanted to toss that in as possibly relevant info.

[hexola]

129. I agree and suspect that same thing...but

I can totally see the "v" being used...the point is - there is no proof - or other online reference to such...

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Don't ask me since you don't beleive me

but ask a Spanish Profesor, one specializing in 15th and 16th century Spanish... especially BEFORE the adoption of the current alphabet under King Phillip II

Again I know nolthing of this either... never seen any of those texts or read them either,

But that is your clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Oh here is a jewel

http://home.earthlink.net/~rguevara/alternatelobos.htm

[salin]

43. *wink*

thought the find was rather humorous - and sometimes when something absurd comes up - it can help to briefly lighten up the tone (which over the past week + worth of news, I find to be personally needed.) Didn't mean to disrupt the conversation - just share the rather (in my mind) funny hit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Oh agree with you

it is humorous and what is even more humorous is the molehill some are makign of that photo

Damn the International Jew is all over the place... <grin>

[salin]

50. have to agree

worked with youth in Detroit (a number of years ago) in heavy gang territory. While I have not seen an Israeli flag enmeshed in gang insignia's - the rest of it is completely consistent... so it makes sense to me. Not uncommon for former gang members to enlist as a means out of their current circumstance. Thing is - once tattooed - it is very costly (and, I believe, painful) to remove the things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Yep

And ading the lines wouuld help to defuse the original gang markings
from those who have no idea who or what they are.

Seen this before, both you and I... but the molehill these boys and girls are making is just amusing

As to the cost, one sailor in my hubby's boat had a spider web done on his elbow... he is hispanic, and this is the one used by white supremacy groups. Kid did not know... it ran him over 10K to remove it with Laser ... and he had to pay for it.

Oh and he may have been told to add those to disguise them, as the miliary also notes all tattoos that personnel come in with... and yes there have even been gang fights on the high seas.

[bhunt70]

106. bullshit claim

the spiderweb on the elbow is used to signify that you spent time in jail, and that while there you killed someone. It is not white supremist. There may be a lot of other meanings to it but that is the most common.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Not according to the COB and others on board that

boat, but you were there, and you saw the actual tatoo... RIGHT?

Yep you were there I bow at your knowledge and ESP....

[plurality]

53. I think you're the one who's strechting here

It doesn't have to be some, "Jews run the world conspiracy theory."

I think your gang theory just doesn't add up, yes gangs use the star of david but I haven't seen any that incorporated the flag of israel, and while gangs may use flags in their insignias, it usually has to do with their countries of origin, and while I'm sure the East Burg Crip are a big problem in South Central, I haven't heard much about them.

It shouldn't be too damn hard to get. We invaded an Arab country. We don't have to much experience in that area so we ask for some help from our friend in the region who's all too familiar with the topic. One day, a US soldier sees this guys tat, and says, "Sweet tat, can a get a pic for it to show to my friends back home." Thinking nothing of it, the guy says sure. No big conspiracy, that's just the most likely scenario. It definitely makes more since than the big Israeli gangs ravage the barrios of Southern California.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. And I think you still want this to be Mossad

you need it to be Mossad, you absolutely need this to be Mossad

Fer crying out loud, we hired US Companies, whether those US Companies hired out to Salvadorans (some are in Iraq) South Africans, Israelis (lets assume you are right on this one, though I fear you are not), Theese are AMERICAN COMPANIES responsibile to a State Actor called the United States, who authorized at very high levels of governemnt the TORTURE that happened at Abu Ghraib. IN fact lets use the correct term here, the War Crimes that were commited in your and mine name at Abu Ghraib.

But YOU NEED TO TRANSFER some of this responsibilty to the cogs in the machiine, not that different than... the bad apples theory advanced by the Pentagon (thogh for hte record when you count the people at the top there are seven bad apples... amazing I know)

Oh and by the way, I DO have some experience with Gangs, mostly as patients, which I fear is far larger than YOUR experience with gangs.

So TAKE RESPONSIBITLY for the ACTIONS OF YOUR GOVERNMEWNT and STOP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES that reinforce YOUR THEORY

For the record Mossad are no angels nor is Shin Beit, but I am willing to own to MY GOVERNMENT'S Crimes, FULLY AND COMPLETELY. How about you?

Oh and I do understand why the Iraqis NEED to believe that Mossad is behind everthing, but it amazes me that Americans have this need as well.

[plurality]

71. I don't need it be a goddamned thing, I think you need it to be a gang

I know this country is fucking evil. I'm not trying to shift the blame to anyone. It's only the most likely scenario. The US military has NEXT TO NO EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH ARABS, ISRAEL DOES! It's that fucking simple. Our government would be stupid to not be getting help from the Israelis. And in this situation Salvadorans, etc, wouldn't be helpful. Notice the insistance that sexual humiliation would be especially useful against Arabs because they're succeptible to it. How the fuck is a Guatamalan going to know that, he isn't. It doesn't make the scum that did that shit any less culpable, and I'm not trying to shift the blame. I hate this government, all of it, and I'm glad they're finally being exposed for the scum they are.

And while I kneel down before your englightened omniscience on gangs, I happen to know a bit about them myself, since a good amount of my friends in high school were in them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. THis particular marking is a gang marking

As to us not knowing a damn thing about arabs, hate to break this to you, but we do... we have been playing in the sand box since at least 1940.

You think we have not picked a thing here or there?

We have...

Oh and the Brits, our great allies in this mess, they HELD IRAQ under their boot until 1955, when responsibility passed to us, to ensure the flow of oil. YOU THINK we have NO CLUE?

History is against you... fully against you.

We have consulted with the Israelis, as a Strategic Ally, but we also consulted WITH EVERY ARAB ally in the region... and the techniques used at Abu Ghraib are used by the Jordanians and the Egyptians on a regular basis, as well as the Saudis, oopps I forget the ISI, but technically Pakistan is out of the region. So I guess we will also find Egyptian, Saudi and Jordanian advisors, huh?

Yep, it was only the Isreelis, yep, no way around it, and this is how the International Jew Expands across the world... and ending the Jewish Problem STARTS... Seen this movie... and I fully believe my fellow Americans are FULLY capable of that as well.

So wake up and smell the coffee... no IDF or Mossad or Shin Beit needed, trust me MI -5 is capable as well.

[hexola]

80. You havent presented a shred of evidence to support that idea!

Other than your own testimony...

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Whatever

as I said, you have used the wrong search parameters, I sent you to the PUBLIC SO Cal Database... take it or leave it... you could but will not, go and do some research into the extensive gang problem in So Cal and you may or may not come across them.

This is NOT an IDF person... I know YOU ALSO need it to be IDF or Shin Beit or Mossad.

The Iraqis make sense, Thinking americans sadly make more sense every day as well... it could NOT be us... and we really did not know anything about them arabs, never mind we have been playing in the sand box FOR DECADES

[arcane1]

92. the PUBLIC SO Cal Database

had nothing on lovos or lobos

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Go ask your local poilice unit

There are GANGS in the US Military, this is not proof of an Israeli there


For the record they may or may not be there, the same goes for South Africans, Salvadororans, ISI and the Jordanian, Saudi and Egypitian services, but NOBODY would be THAT STUPID to put a tattoo that spells insta death in that country.

THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh never mind.

You people are right I am just a stupid know nothing who has NEVER EVER SEEN THIS OR KNOWS WHY MOST OF THE INFORMATION ON GANGS IS NOT PUBLIC

I am not telling you TAKE MY WORD! I am telling you, GO BACK IT UP....

If I was telling you take my word then you would have a case, I have not told you more than this is a gang marking, it looks like one, but BACK IT UP... and this is NOT HEBREW.

So DO SOME WORK and FIND OUT if I am LYING TO YOU OR NOT, I dare you to go to your LOCAL GANG UNIT and ASK.

[arcane1]

127. NOBODY would be THAT STUPID to put a tattoo...

spells instant death in that country.

Nobody, huh?

Obviously, somebody is that stupid, as this photo demonstrates

So, according to you, it is impossible for an Israeli to be that stupid, but a Latino from SoCal WOULD be that stupid??

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. The isreali would nkow the back yard

the low level trooper from the US... you made the assumption where or what, would not... or he missed the cultural sensitivity brief the US Military does provide troops before deployment

Which by the way leads to the next conclusion, those seven bad apples were not the ones who came wiht the torture, but it was people quite higher than them.

[arcane1]

152. I have made no such assumption, they came from your posts

from #68:

The gang is real in So Cal

Here is a list of known gangs in So Cal, though a tad dated...

You will notice, if you know spanish, some are mispelled

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. And I have not seen that list in years

again go to the police department

The gang is real... or was real as of 1998... the last time I dealt with any gang member

But hey, have it your way, I know nothing and I am stupid, oh and my word is law... what DO I CARE, what YOU THINK, this is a mere message board.

Again if I was akin to Rush I would not be telling you WHERE TO GO LOOK FOR INFO,now WOULD I? Be honest now

and yes that list is dated from when I was still playing around in the streets... and I did not see any update on it.

Oh and some gang names ARE MISPELLED on purpose... helps to keep the rooks off their toes... but whatever trips your trigger, that was the Mossad, and now you have proof... happy now?

[arcane1]

156. please show me where I gave any opinion on who this is

you started calling me an anti-semite simply because I didn't accept your claims without something to support them.

I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth like that


All I wanted to know is what the text on the tattoo was. You gave absolute assurances that the tattoo was un-associated with Israel, and that it was CERTAINLY a gang member


put up or shut up

[plurality]

90. don't you know, we're supposed to believe he's the gang expert

because he says so. I mean, no one ever claims to be something they're not on an internet chat site to back up claims they can't prove.

[hexola]

96. And I'm perfectly willing to believe it...just provide a shred of proof...

It doesn't sound too far fetched - but without some other supporting reference...I'm inclined to dissmiss the gang theory....

Particualrly in light of this: See post 78

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Ok silly me

what woudl the ISRAELI AIR FORCE be doing in Iraq, wiht a marking
that woudl imply INSTANT DEATH?

USE YOUR NOGGIN

[arcane1]

123. a marking that means instant death???

like an American military uniform?

this photo was taken in the prison, this wasn't a person walking around shirtless through the streets of Iraq

and, if that marking is a sure sign of instant death, what would the US military be doing in Iraq with such markings? Same rule applies

you seem to have a very strong NEED to convince us all that this is unrelated to Israel in any way whatsoever, despite the fact that it's their flag in the tattoo. Why would a SoCal latino gang member have the Israeli FLAG on his arm?

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Free clue

You have no clue what you are talking about.

The Israelis were consulted after 9.11, like EVERY OTHER STRATEGIC ALLY in the area... they gave us some input, but it is amazing to me how ONLY the Israelis are marked by EVERYBODY.

By the way did YOU know we have sent many of our less savory prisoners to Jordan? You THINK it is only for the sights?

We have also sent some to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, I guess to Club Med for some rest and relaxation, that must be it.

We have also consulted with our very good friends at the ISI...

But at the end of the day, what happened at Abu Ghraib, even if there were some Israeli, South Africans, and Jordanians present, it is US as a State Actor who need to take responsibility and pay reparations for WAR CRIMES.

I am sure this is the part YOU CANNOT accept, fully, as you are sill looking for scapegoats QUICK, there goes an International Jew, CATCH HIM before he spreads more ugliness that we will be able to deny responsibily for

Oh and yes that tatoo spells insta death in that area of the world, WORST than even the US Uniform... but you know a lot about the area and how much the Israelis are behind all of this, huh? Yes this is a tin foil theory ciruculating on boht sides, when all is said and done, QUICK BLAME THe JEWS, and both sides of the poltiical divide are DOING IT.

Clear enough for you?

And yes I know the Isreelis were consulted, as well as EVERY OTHER STRATEGIC ALLY in the area... so spread the blame... after all some of these torture techniques ARE NOW IN USE BY THE JORDANIANS.

[arcane1]

131. did I blame the Jews? Please paste the text for me

I'd like to see it

asshole

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. You are in less than overt ways

And It is not your fault, as you are not noticing

And by the way, you are not the first or last one to do this, I have noticed this from well before the war started, it is just hitting a crecendo.

[arcane1]

138. calling me an anti-semite, you're getting desperate

it's those evil Latinos! Only the brown people are the war criminals! No Israeli would EVER do such things as went on in that prison

:eyes:

you are a racist, but just not in an overt way. Its not your fault, though, you are not noticing...

all I did was ask what the text meant, and this is where you went with it, Not ONCE did I ever say a word about what I think the photo depicts, those thoughts are all in your own mind

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Nope I am aware of what the Israelis are capable of doingq

but hey, so ARE WE, and by the way the kids who DID THIS did not do this without very high level guideance

And yes you have made some statements are are not overt... seen this before

Again are you going to blame the ISI and the Jordanians as well, how about the Egyptians? And it has NOTHING to do wiht skin color, but all to do with the exercise of power, naked power.

[hexola]

133. You're the one making that argument...it might be an anti-semetic tattoo

We're just trying find out what LOVOS means...we're a long way from putting everything together in any sort of theory...

Have you considered that it might be an anti-semetic symbol?

[Must_B_Free]

135. well, its unjewish to get a tattoo in the first place.

so that's weird enough.

[hexola]

140. Un-Christian too isn't it

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord." Leviticus 19:28 - NKJV.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Leviticus is the OLD Testtament

And tatoos have been present on and off in the Western World.

Again, this is far more of a negative in Judaism, as it woudl prevent burial in a clean side of a cememtery, not a good thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. You read what you chose to read

reality is, I have seen kids from the barrio wiht swastikas, and when you ask them what they stand for, they have NO CLUE.

So I am not going to say that the waerer was trying to make more of an statement than the usual gang belonging statement, the us versus them.

Careful there...

My first take was apocalyptic, but Lovos, no that is a tatoo, and what it means to the wearer I have no clue... I would have to ask him... or the next best choice a police intelligence unit

[plurality]

89. I'm done, you have proved NOTHING

All you can do is make baseless assertions and then when asked evidence to back up your claims, you post links to bullshit DARE sites that don't even mention the alleged 'gang' this is a symbol of.

Then you use the same tired bullshit smear of 'anti-semitism' because it shows something that makes Israel looks bad. Of course you can't actually come out and call anyone an anti-semite, you just say we're all, "looking under rocks for the International Jew." No one's buying your shit. You can keep kicking this thread all you want because you're not proving anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Go to your local police unit

and ask to talk to the gang unit, they MAY be willing to educate you

And that is a good question.

As to useless Dare sites, they are not bullshit, but MOST of the info on gangs is KEPT off line for a reason... it is called INTELLIGENCE SENSITIVE INFORMATION.

[Zhade]

173. "...I do understand why the Iraqis NEED to believe..."

Wow. What an insulting, racially-insensitive comment.

So you're saying all Iraqis believe all Jews are involved in a conspiracy?

That's just as racist a view as the idea you've now claimed "the Iraqis" believe. It is on par with the racism behind anti-Semitism, only directed at Arabs instead of Jews.

Nice double standard you've got going there.

[bhunt70]

93. I dont see how you can be so sure.

[Junkdrawer]

24. Lovoj means "Lovable" in Lithuanian....

http://alkonas.fotonija.lt/Word.asp?Zodis=lovoj

[Alerter_]

122. "Lovos" seems to be a conjugation of "love"

"X Lovos Y" might mean "X loves Y" - and Lithuania obviously has a number of dual Lithuanian/Israel citizens, not to mention Russia. This could very well be a Israeli/Lithuanian person, and the tatoo most likely is just a personal one.

[HFishbine]

164. Now THAT makes sense

I wouldn't bet the farm on it, but here are some "Sofos-lovos" which are, by appearances, love seats: http://www.baldurojus.lt/prekes/sofos.html

[hexola]

28. ENLARGEMENT HERE

[patrice]

30. So how do we know that is authentic? - eom

on edit :

authentic, as in actually from one of the Iraqi prisons, Abu Ghraib or otherwise.

an awful lot of pictures floating around now.

[hexola]

38. Authentic - in what way?

[patrice]

32. Does this give some cred to the theory that Mossad

killed Nick Berg to provide distraction to what was going on in Abu Ghraib et al?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. No Mossad woudl not make a beginers mistake

But we have done our own war crimes. Why can't people OWN to them?

[hexola]

52. "Scorpion" Bible refereces/Star Chart

http://www.mazzaroth.com/InsertFour/ScorpiusStarChart.htm

Deuteronomy 8:15 "…wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions.."

Ezekiel 2:5-6 "…and thou dost dwell among scorpions…"

Luke 10:17-19 "…Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions.. "

Revelation 9:1-11 "… locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.. but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man…And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months…they had a king… which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon (This is another name for Satan and possibly his posterity).

[hexola]

69. Scorpion Pass (bible)

Before they crossed the Jordan, The Lord specified Scorpion Pass to Moses as one of the boundaries of the Promised Land:

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030901.htm

[Must_B_Free]

73. heres some refs

In Hebrew ancient history the scorpion was the emblem of the tribe of Dan. There is also a character 'Scorpion Man' guardian of Mount Mashu the place of sunrise and sunset in the Gilgamesh epic. This character later plays a role in the Babylonian Creation Tablets (650 BC) when he is one of the 11 mighty helpers that assisted Tiamat the mother of creation in overcoming her loathsome offspring.

For a period of about 300 hundred years from the early 1300s to late 1500s Christians often used the scorpion as an emblem for the Jewish people to symbolize perfidy.

http://www.earthlife.net/chelicerata/scorpionidae.html

[Must_B_Free]

79. Another clue

I couldn't find a good online hebrew dictionary, but here ius a crossword puzzle

27 Down - Scorpion, in Israel (var.)

(5 letters - could it be LOVOS? maybe not)

http://www.amuseum.org/jahf/amusements/crossword/crossword2.html

[ret5hd]

85. no, if you had clicked on "answers here"

the answer to 27 down is acrab

[Must_B_Free]

110. cool!

I thought one of the across was "Era".

[jpgray]

102. I think in Hebrew it is 'akrav'--based on the 105th's Hebrew name (nt)

[Ms. Clio]

151. The torturers were fascinated with scorpions, according to their victims

I read an article here a couple of weeks ago in which one of the Abu Graib prisoners claimed that their tormentors especially enjoyed placing scorpions on their victims' naked skin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Well that is an old technique used in the middle east

going back centuries...

The other favorite are snakes....

The kids did not figure these things out though, the ones who figured this out were the folks at Military Intelligence.

[plurality]

58. Israeli Agents Believed Involved in Abu Ghraib

And this comes from newsmax, not known for their love of Arabs or hatred of Israel.

Diplomatic sources in Washington tell NewsMax that Israeli nationals are believed to be involved in the Iraq prison controversy.

"Israelis have been to Abu Ghraib and other prisons (in Iraq)," says one source familiar with the U.S. operations.

It was explained that the Israelis involved have been assigned as "civilian contractors" to work with Coalition forces in interrogating Iraqi POWs.

The "contractors" are said to be veterans of Israel's domestic intelligence unit, Shin Bet, as well as the more famous, international intelligence agency, the Mossad. "Who has better experience in dealing with the Arabs than Israel?" one source asked.

It was explained that several of the "interrogation" techniques used by U.S. forces in Iraq have in fact been used by Israel "for years."..

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/24/131401.shtml

[maggrwaggr]

97. ah yes, more of those lovely "civilian contractors"

great.

The US is hiring! But only if you're a racist thug!

[hexola]

60. Tattoo owners: How old do you think that tattoo is...?

Those homemade jobs start to get ugly fast...

How old do you think this is?...no more than 24 months? Older...

[jpgray]

78. The only 'scorpion' related Israeli unit, I think, is in the IAF

105th sqaudron:




Pretty tenuous.

[hexola]

84. Oh that's just a coincidence! (nt)

[jpgray]

98. As I said, pretty tenuous (nt)

[Must_B_Free]

94. Here we go!

The scorpion and the tarantula; the struggle to control atomic weapons, 1945-1949
by Joseph I. Lieberman (Author) (Yep, that Joe Lieberman!)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005WRKE/002-4312409-6054405?v=glance

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2000/083000.htm

So you thought Al Gore's book "Earth in the Balance" was flaky? Check out his running mate Joseph Lieberman's little-noticed 1970 volume on arms control and the origins of the Cold War, "The Scorpion and the Tarantula." It's a masterpiece of moral equivalency in which Mr. Lieberman draws a parallel between Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and the American Monroe Doctrine of maintaining influence in the Western hemisphere.

The book's title comes from a quote from Cold War historian Louis Halle, who contended that the Cold War "is not fundamentally a case of the wicked against the virtuous. Fundamentally, it is like the case of the scorpion and the tarantula in the bottle, and we may properly feel sorry for both parties, caught as they are, in a situation of irreducible dilemma." In the preface to his 1970 book, Mr. Lieberman wrote that "this is the spirit in which I have recorded what my research has revealed."



It a symbol of mortal combat.

[Snazzy]

99. Not a gang symbol--it's some rapture crap

The return of the Messiah being like the sting of the scorpion. That's in the Talmud somewhere, and probably in those Christian-right serial books.

I don't have a link, but try google for Messiah and scorpion and you will get the drift.

Maybe guarding Israel (so they can get that magic 144,000 taken up)like the scorpion is the tattoo boy's interpretation.

No idea what Lovos means. Maybe the guy's name.

[Snazzy]

143. Lovos -- latin spelling of spanish word wolf and link to St. James

From: http://louisserna.com/issue44.html

... Nemesio writes that the Lobatos have a long history, originating in the province of Gallicia in the North of Spain. In the First Century A.D., the family was founded by Queen Claudia Lupavia, who was the Mother Queen of Gallicia, Castilla La Vieja, and Leon. Her royal Coat of Arms had three towers, representing her three provinces, and the shield was bordered by twelve wolves, or "lovos"… taken from her name, "Lupavia", which is the feminine gender of the ancient word, "Lupo", the name for wolf… In keeping with her name and heritage, she named her sons, "Lovatos", which translates to wolf cubs… or "sons of la lova"…. (In the spelling of Lovato and Lobato, both spellings are correct… Lovato with a "v" is the "roman latin" spelling, and Lobato with a "b" is the "Spanish latin" spelling, both used in Spain and in New Mexico). The Queen's first name, Claudia, in the ancient language of Spain, means "lame"… and she was known to have a hip problem, which was a common ailment of the people living around the Mediterranean… So already we see that the Queen was not an average lady. At first a pagan, she converted her thoughts regarding religion and embraced the Christian God.

During her lifetime, St. James, the brother of the Apostle, St. John, visited Gallicia, within her kingdom. As Gallicia was the end of the "known world" at that time, or "finis terra" in the maps of the ancient Roman Empire. St. James had told Jesus Christ that he would evangelize the Christian faith to the ends of the earth, so he did…. to Gallicia… There, he trained some very strong and devoted disciples, and the Mother Queen came under their influence and converted to Catholicism.

St. James became the first Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, and later became Bishop of Jerusalem, where he was martyred and be-headed..! Upon receiving the news, the Mother Queen Lupavia, sent her sons to Palestine to bring his body back to Spain. As the legend goes, they made the voyage, retrieved St. James body, and brought it to the sea shell covered beach at Compostela… the younger brothers, swam out to the vessel and carried his body over the sea shell encrusted shore, ignoring the damage done to their feet on the sharp broken shells. Today, the shell is the symbol of St. James.

Queen Claudia buried his body in the vicinity of her castle and soon after, became a hermitress. The exact location of the burial site was lost for centuries until the people of Asturia and Gallicia enaged in a battle with the Moors in the Eight Century A.D., to free themselves of the Moorish influence. The Christian force was in desperate need of support from the Heavenly Host, and according to history, a light appeared over the grave of St. James, sometime after the battle. According to "The History of the Church of St. James of Compostella", by Lopez Ferreiro, in 813 A.D., King Pelayo had a vision which led him to the light over the burial place of St. James, and St. James became the patron Saint of Spain..! Thereafter, pilgrimages to Santiago de Compostela became the most important voyage in Medieval Europe, and Santiago..! became the cry for Heavenly intervention, when Spaniards faced a formidable enemy!!! such as the reported sighting at the battle of Acoma by Onate's troops… when after the battle, the Acomas asked, "Show us that fierce armored warrior on the white horse…. who won the battle for you…?". Onate's troops had no known warrior on a white horse at that battle….!!!

----

Not quite sure what that has to do with the rapture. Think I'll save some brain cells and not find out. Also, a little irony from Revelations, the scorpions (5th trumpet I think) toruture people for five months.

[Alerter_]

159. this goes along with the "DaVinci Code" theories

and older theories from "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". I think it's pure speculation - I do not subscribe to any of these theories - but a lot of it involves a crusade to return the King of Jerusalem to his throne and a rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. It's a very interesting mix of non-orthodox Judaism and non-Catholic Christianity. The historical existence of these theories are not in doubt, we have plenty of historical record.

Again, I don't believe it, but with the obvious religious angles to the current wars, both in Iraq and Israel/Palenstine, I wouldn't be surprised if there are groups taking this stuff seriously.

But again - I think this tatoo is just a run-of-the-mill gangsta tatoo from an Israeli or Israeli-identified person.

[peacetalksforall]

100. Has any suggested it may be the result of doodling in an Eng Lit or

Science class? Unique to the kid?

[seabeyond]

103. isnt anywhere close to an S so why is everyone saying lovos

it is clearly lovo......but i dont know what the last mark looks like. i do know it doesnt look like an s

[hexola]

107. You looked at the enlargement? (nt)

[seabeyond]

114. my bad

went in agin, and looked again, now i see the top hoop. was just seeing it go up and stop at the blue line of the flag. seeing the hoop going to the side now. thanks.

take it back

[Must_B_Free]

128. Israel's fingerprints are all over US Iraq operations

From:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1517119#1518035

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1102940,00.html

Tuesday December 9, 2003

The Pentagon did not return calls seeking comment, but a military planner, Brigadier General Michael Vane, mentioned the cooperation with Israel in a letter to Army magazine in July about the Iraq counter-insurgency campaign.

"We recently travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas," wrote General Vane, deputy chief of staff at the army's training and doctrine command.

"When we turn to anyone for insights, it doesn't mean we blindly accept it," Col Peters said. "But I think what you're seeing is a new realism. The American tendency is to try to win all the hearts and minds. In Iraq, there are just some hearts and minds you can't win. Within the bounds of human rights, if you do make an example of certain villages it gets the attention of the others, and attacks have gone down in the area."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3702655
Dec. 13, 2003

JERUSALEM - In fighting insurgents in Iraq, the United States is drawing on some of Israel’s methods and experiences in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including running checkpoints and tracking militants with drone aircraft, Israeli officials say.

Israeli and U.S. security experts have met repeatedly in recent months to discuss urban warfare and Israel’s lessons from its grueling three-year fight against Palestinian militants

Israeli expert predicts U.S. defeat

“They are already doing things that we have been doing for years to no avail, like demolishing buildings ... like closing off villages in barbed wire,” Van Creveld said. “The Americans are coming here to try to mimic all kinds of techniques, but it’s not going to do them any good.”

“I don’t see how on earth they (the U.S.) can win. I think this is going to end the same way Vietnam did,” Van Creveld said. “They are going to flee the country hanging on the strings of helicopters,” he added, referring to the 1973 U.S. departure from Saigon.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0929/p07s02-wome.html
September 29, 2003 edition

US eyes Israeli software as training tool for forces in Iraq

For US soldiers wondering what they should and should not do in their role as occupiers of Iraq, help may be on the way from the Israel Defense Forces.

The Israeli military has developed a software program to teach junior commanders 11 "codes of conduct'' when operating among civilians - fight only those fighting you, respect the dignity of the local population, don't pillage, and so forth.

The subsequent animation tells viewers that mistreating civilians can turn them into the enemy. Another image depicts civilians who deserve to be treated with "dignity and humanity": a woman holding a child, a cleric, an elderly man, and a representative of the civil authority.

http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/28/stories/2004042802061600.htm
Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004
U.S. tactics in Iraq carry Israeli imprint

MANAMA, APRIL 27. In enforcing its siege around Fallujah, the U.S. has employed tactics similar to the ones that Israel has adopted against Palestinian fighters, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The U.S.-Israeli connection in this field can be traced to the April 2002 battle of Jenin in the West Bank, defence analysts say. American troops, soon after this clash, were reportedly sent for training to the mock Arab town that the Israeli Army had created in the Tzrifin area of the southern Negev Desert.

The U.S. publication Defence News has reported that in December 2003, senior Israeli military officers hosted a series of meetings involving a U.S. team headed by Gen. Kevin Byrnes, commander of the U.S. army's training and doctrine command.

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Could it be possible that rekindling Americas new spirit of torture is just one of many parts of a strategy called "New Realism"?

I would almost expect "Neo Conservatives" to use "New Realism" as a coined justification for torture?

Here's where it gets really ugly:

------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1207-06.htm

Published on Sunday, December 7, 2003 by the New York Times
Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns

In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.

------------------

So some of these people weren't even criminals but just relatives of suspects?

And the original post has the reference to rounding up relatives:

"a prod to garner "cooperation" by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites."

http://instantreplay.blogspot.com/2003_08_31_instantreplay_archive.htm...
Saturday, September 06, 2003 archived

Army Gets Warrior Therapy
The U.S. armed forces have moved increasingly towards specialization in recent years, at the expense of the soldiering spirit. The Army has too many soldiers who have lost touch with their inner warrior, said Gen. Kevin P. Byrnes, the Army's top training general, in todays NYTimes. So beginning next year...the Army plans to formally inculcate what it calls a "warrior ethos" throughout the ranks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/07/national/07ARMY.html?ex=1063598400&e...
Warrier mentality throughout all the ranks ( Byrnes ) Sept. 7, 2003 ..."more lethal"
Gen. Kevin P. Byrnes, the Army's top training general.
But Army officials here said that emphasizing a warrior mentality throughout the ranks had been under way for 18 months as leaders in the Pentagon designed a force for the future that would be agile as well as lethal, and prepared to fight on a battlefield, like Iraq, without traditional front lines and rear areas.


http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/06/16/200306168419.htm
Army recruiting civilians as potential Green Berets
Posted Monday, June 16, 2003 - 2:47 am

Unconventional warfare in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq taught the U.S. Army it needed more unconventional warriors.

And not just anyone can be Special Forces. You have to be a much more mindful soldier. It means using your brain. It means being a teacher. It means more than just using your muscles," Sully said.

The move comes as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld prods the U.S. military to become more agile and lethal.

Gen. Kevin Byrnes, in charge of overall Army doctrine and training, said officials realized they needed to attract more men into the field.

"We had (Special Forces) units operating at less than 100 percent. After Afghanistan, we fixed that," Byrnes said. "We realized ... the operating tempo of our Special Forces was so high, we decided to look at recruiting opportunities outside the Army."

Clinton DeVoe, 23, of Wilmington, N.C., said he began looking at Special Forces after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He leaves for basic training July 8 after completing his studies in philosophy at the University of South Carolina.

"After 9-11, I decided I wanted to protect people here. ... I'm comfortable with the idea of a military life," he said, adding that his grandfather and uncle had careers in the military.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

139. another meaning of scorpion which fits a prison

from my dictionary
scorpion - from the bible - a variety of whip or scourge

scourge - 1 a whip or other instrument for flogging

2 any means of inflicting severe punishment, suffering
or vengeance

3 any cause of serious trouble or affliction
(the scourge of war)

[geek tragedy]

147. We know why Counterpunch is running it.

They have a problem with Jews. Cockburn, the guy who runs the site is a well-known anti-Jewish conspiracy nut who once suggested that the NY Times' coverage of the Catholic Church's problems with pedophilia committed by priests was a Jewish plot to distract attention away from Israel's crimes.

[plurality]

148. really, where's that article, I'd like to see it.

I also wonder why such a rabid jew hater like Cockburn would publish the works of those evil Jews Uri Averny, Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg, Saul Landau, and Josh Ruebner. Oh wait, I forget, they don't count since they don't jive with your ludicrous smear.

[geek tragedy]

150. Here you go:

*snip*
And on the topic of the Times, have you noticed how that great paper has had a front-page piece rubbishing the Catholic Church as a nest of molesters every day for some time, especially since Sharon invaded Ramallah? The uncharitable could see this as a preemptive strike against papal criticism of Israel’s actions, and also to shift attention away from the blood-stained molestations of the adherents of one of the other monotheistic religions.

*Snip*

http://www.nypress.com/15/15/news&columns/wildjustice.cfm

There's also this excrable piece:


http://counterpunch.org/alexgraham.html

*snip*
It's supposedly the third rail in journalism even to have a discussion of how much the Jews do control the media. Since three of the prime founders of Hollywood, were Polish Jews who grew up within fifty miles of each other in Galicia, it's reckoned as not so utterly beyond the bounds of propriety to talk about Jewish power in Hollywood, though people still stir uneasily. The economic and political commentator Jude Wanniski remarked last week in his web newsletter that even if the Jews don't control the media overall, it iscertainly true to say that they control discussion of Israel in the media here.

Certainly, there are a number of stories sloshing around the news now that have raised discussion of Israel and of the posture of American Jews to an acrid level. The purveyor of anthrax may have been a former government scientist, Jewish, with a record of baiting a colleague of Arab origins, and with the intent to blame the anthrax on Muslim terrorists. Rocketing around the web and spilling into the press are many stories about Israeli spies in America at the time of 9/11. On various accounts, they were trailing Atta and his associates, knew what was going to happen but did nothing about it, or were simply spying on US facilities. Some, posing as art students have been expelled, according to AP. Finally, there's Sharon's bloody repression of the Palestinians, and Israel's apparently powerful role in Bush's foreign policy, urging him into action against at least two of the axes of evil, Iraq and Iran.
*snip*

[plurality]

157. let me see

First, I don't see how this has to be some "Jewish plot", for one the NY Times has an absolute pro-Israel bias, seeing how suicide attack victims often get full bios, meanwhile Palestinian civilians killed are lucky if they're even mention. And second, that clip wasn't even the basis of the article, it was about how the NY Times, et. al. are ever so eager to find the anti-semite among us, which is usually anyone who mentions their displeasure with indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.

And the second piece, wasn't about the 'Jewish media conspiracy' but about why is it that the media could care less that Billy Graham advocated the murder of 1,000,000 Vietnamese but it was over the top when he talked about 'Jews controlling the media'. An interesting question if you ask me. I know I'd like to know who out there thinks genocide is a good idea, I wonder why the mass media didn't think that was important.

And as I said, if Cockburn is out to get the Jews, why does he publish their work on his site, and why would they allow him to publish their work?

[geek tragedy]

158. He said that

"The uncharitable could see this as a preemptive strike against papal criticism of Israel’s actions, and also to shift attention away from the blood-stained molestations of the adherents of one of the other monotheistic religions.

Substitute "the Jews" for "the adherents of one of the other monotheistic religions" and his agenda becomes clear pretty quickly.

As far as your "he publishes Jews, so how can he hate them" canard, I don't believe for a second that freeper publications that praise Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman have any affection for Democrats.

Check this one out (the guy has a long history of this crap

*snip*

Then it was Rep. James Moran’s turn, in hot water over his head for having remarked in a March 3 town hall session last spring with his constituents that, as quoted in the Virginia-area newspapers, “if it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this”.

The House and Senate Democratic leaders, Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle, hastened to denounce Moran’s remarks, and six Jewish House Democrats took it upon themselves to advise Moran not to run for re-election in 2004. Should he do so, “we cannot and will not support his candidacy”. Moran was forced to give up on his positions as Democratic Party leader in the mid-Atlantic region. The game plan is clearly what it was with Hilliard of Alabama and McKinney of Georgia: breathe a word about justice for Palestinians, and you’ll lose your seat. Moran is running for reelection. And the decision will belong to the voters.

One reason Moran got attacked so hysterically is that Jewish nerves were raw on precisely the point he raised, the role of Jewish opinion here in pressing for the attack on Iraq.

*snip*

Notice also that he is a liar: Moran blamed the Iraq war on the Jews, and Cockburn makes him out to be persecuted for demanding justice for Palestinians.

He apparently has fooled you. Not most, though.

[plurality]

160. several things

"The uncharitable could see this as a preemptive strike against papal criticism of Israel’s actions, and also to shift attention away from the blood-stained molestations of the adherents of one of the other monotheistic religions.

Substitute "the Jews" for "the adherents of one of the other monotheistic religions" and his agenda becomes clear pretty quickly.

I'll admit that he is guilty of a sin that if you'll look elsewhere in this thread is committed by Israel backers as well, and that is using Jews and Israel simultaneously. It's definitely not good, but lacking evidence of general malice torwards Jews I'll take note of it and make conclusions with more evidence. As I said since people now assume that criticism of Israel now equals criticism of Jews, I can see how he could make that mistake.

As far as your "he publishes Jews, so how can he hate them" canard, I don't believe for a second that freeper publications that praise Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman have any affection for Democrats.

This isn't a case of him praising these people, these people are sending him their writings for publication and he is publishing them. So once again, why would Jews (one of them a former MP in the Israeli Knesset mind you) seek to be published in an anti-semites newspaper?

Then it was Rep. James Moran’s turn, in hot water over his head for having remarked in a March 3 town hall session last spring with his constituents that, as quoted in the Virginia-area newspapers, “if it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this”.

The House and Senate Democratic leaders, Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle, hastened to denounce Moran’s remarks, and six Jewish House Democrats took it upon themselves to advise Moran not to run for re-election in 2004. Should he do so, “we cannot and will not support his candidacy”. Moran was forced to give up on his positions as Democratic Party leader in the mid-Atlantic region. The game plan is clearly what it was with Hilliard of Alabama and McKinney of Georgia: breathe a word about justice for Palestinians, and you’ll lose your seat. Moran is running for reelection. And the decision will belong to the voters.

One reason Moran got attacked so hysterically is that Jewish nerves were raw on precisely the point he raised, the role of Jewish opinion here in pressing for the attack on Iraq.

*snip*

Notice also that he is a liar: Moran blamed the Iraq war on the Jews, and Cockburn makes him out to be persecuted for demanding justice for Palestinians.

Moran makes the same mistake Cockburn did, he says Jewish community when he should have been more specific. It's no secret that AIPAC, JINSA, and other Israeli lobbying groups were pressing hard for the invasion of Iraq.

And Cockburn is not lying he said that Hilliard and McKinney were booted because they favored justice for Palestinians while Moran is being bashed for saying the Jewish community favored the Iraq war.

Also notice that Dick Cheney is now pressing about how good the Iraq invasion was good for Israel and Jews, funny, I don't hear anyone screaming anti-semite at him.

[geek tragedy]

165. Cockburn writes extensively

about the Jews controlling the media. He deals with Jews and Israel all the time--he knows the difference.

Holocaust denial sites run articles by Jewish authors too--your point to that effect is simply irrelevant.

Counterpunch also runs pieces praising Ernst Zundel and other Jew-haters. He is very cozy with that crowd.

[Alerter_]

162. oh give it a rest

Does Israel smear all of its critics as "anti-semitic"? Israel has a lot to do with the current war - AND the Jewish and/or Israeli community here in the US. The sexual and religious humiliation of Arabs is obviously influenced by Israel, they have been doing it to Arabs for 25 years, and right before the war started Bush sent US military over there to learn "counter-terrorism" tactics. If you consider the truth to be anti-semitic, well...

DU is starting to sound like FreeRepublic - where ANYTHING not worshipful of Israel and Jews is automatically denounced as "leftist anti-semitism".

[geek tragedy]

167. Oh please.

Engage in an actual discussion instead of throwing labels and thoughtless accusations around.

And, people who publish defenses of Holocaust deniers do risk being accused of Judenhass. People who accuse "Jewish scientists" of spreading anthrax risk being accused of Judenhass. That has nothing to do with Israel.

[Jim Sagle]

168. Omigod, a star of David! Head for the hills, the Joooooos are coming!!!!

Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

180. Another reason it might not be in the papers is that nobody gives a fuck.

A guy with a tattoo - now that's BIG news. Not.

[FDRrocks]

178. What the hell does Lovol/Lovos mean?

I've read most of the thread and I think the 105th IAF idea is the most plausible. But why would a member/former member of the IAF be at Abu Ghraib? And what the hell does Lovol/Lovos mean?

[JetJaguar]

179. see mid page

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=news_photos&p=JOHN+MOORE+&ei=UTF-8&&b=61&xargs=






A prisoner, who said he was a Moroccan Jew, shows off his tattoos at the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq , late Saturday, May 8, 2004. Military police said that he was being housed in a private cell, instead of one of the large tent compounds outside, to protect him from other prisoners, because of his religion. (AP Photo/John Moore)
AP - May 09 9:31 AM

[Moderator]

181. Locking.

A great many personal attacks, anti-semitic and borderline anti-semitic remarks.