An answer from the Kerry = Bush Lite crowd WARNING GRAPHIC

[RapidCreek]

This post is in answer to a question posed by Mr. William Rivers Pitt which can be found here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1638511&mesg_id=1638511&page=

The thread was long and unwieldy and I really felt the need to answer it and have the answer viewed by the poster...so here goes.


Do you really think


This sort of thing...



will happen...



and continue to happen....





...under a President Kerry



...and a Kerry-appointed Defense Secretary...




...and a Kerry-appointed Secretary of State...


http://www.rapidcreek.net/PostedImages/WillysWarPres/0,1020,252726,00.jpg

...and a Kerry-chosen Vice President...




...and a Kerry-appointed National Security Advisor...



...and a Kerry appointed Attorney General?



Do you believe that?

Last one for thought? You tell me Will, is it the last one?



If I am to believe Mr. Kerry's stated stance on the war...then yea Willy, I KNOW all of what is depicted in my post will continue to occur under his watch when he is elected. Is the act which has resulted in the subject matter I have presented somehow more excusable than those wich have resulted in the subject matter presented in yours? I'd say not. So you tell me...Is Kerry Bush lite...or maybe better stated, a different side of the same coin?

It is dangerous to invite contemplation of what exactly the differences are between the lessor of two evils.

You should perhaps put the whiskey away fella...you ain't doing your cause any good with confrontational posts of the sort this one answers.

Peace and Inner Harmony,

RC

[lastknowngood]

1. He already said he will "stay the course" meaning more war

more slaughter more dead more hate and more sorrow so I think I would try other images to try to persuade us there is a real difference you have already lost this argument. I hope there will be differences but he's sure making it hard to find clear differences.

[RapidCreek]

3. Indeed he is....

Until I hear him say something to make it effusively clear he does not....in my eyes he stands for nothing more than a kinder gentler world hegemony.

RC

[FlashHarry]

4. Bullshit. Kerry will internationalize the occupation.

Which will speed the true handover. If we leave now, Iraq is fucked for a long time, and will actually become a hotbed of anti-western terror. It's like when your kid throws a baseball through a neighbor's window. It wasn't your fault, but you still have to fix it.

[RapidCreek]

6. I see...and you fix it by inviting all the kids in the neighborhood

to throw more baseballs through the neighbors windows along with your own? Interesting approach.

No, convincing the the rest of the kids from the neighborhood to join your own kids adventures in vandalism simply makes you, the parent, a little less distinguishable as the miserable failure that you are.

It dilutes the target of the neighbors ire....and that's about it.

RC

[FlashHarry]

8. Did I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not talking about a highly militarized, offensive occupation. I'm talking about a UN peacekeeping force--one that would involve Arab countries as well. That's the only way this will work.

If we leave Iraq naked, it will become a vacuum for totalitarian politics and terror.

[RapidCreek]

10. How do you know?

What, they are stupid little brown people who can't run their own country? It's already a vaccuum for totalitarian politics and terror...and we made it so....and the longer we stay there the stronger the vacuum becomes.

RC

[FlashHarry]

18. History.

Iran in '79. Iraq in '68. Afghanistan in '89. Not to mention most of sub-Saharan Africa after the 1960s. Countries that have no historical memory of democracy are ripe for totalitarianism.

I opposed the war. I still think it was a huge mistake. We had no business there. But now that we are, we have an obligation to fix it--with the help and consent of the Iraqi people and the rest of the Arab/Persian world.


By the way, I hope you're not insinuating I'm a racist.

[Octafish]

2. You couldn't be more wrong.

Kerry didn't start the war. Bush did.

[RapidCreek]

5. Uh huh....so what?

Bush hasn't ended the war....and Kerry has stated that he has no intention of ending it either....so what's your point?

RC

[FlashHarry]

9. Remember Afghanistan? Remember Iraq in '91?

We cut and run after the Soviets left. The CIA-backed "mujahadeen" became the Taliban. After GulfWar™ I, Bush told Saddam's enemies to "rise up" and we would help. We cut and run.

We cannot leave Iraq now. Yet we cannot continue as we have. What's the answer? I'm not sure, but I know John Kerry will do a helluva lot better job than the former governor of Texaco.

[RapidCreek]

13. What exactly does "cut and run" mean?

Could you define that phrase please?



RC

[FlashHarry]

21. I'm talking about facile, warm-and-fuzzy sayings such as...

..."bring the troops home!" and "US out of Iraq!"

In other words, I'm talking about a full military and political withdrawal from Iraq. Believe me, there's nothing the Bush administration would like more: hand over sovereignty, withdraw the troops, and claim a "success." Iraq is a huge millstone around Bush's neck right now. My fear is that we will "cut and run" in July. That would be a disaster. Mark my words.

[Octafish]

16. The point? Bush fucked up. Not Kerry.

Don't you think there's a difference between Kerry and Bush? Kerry has actually fought in a war. He's lost friends in war. He's had to kill in war. The guy knows better than most that war is a waste. Kerry doesn't think a war is necessary unless there's a pretty important reason for war -- protecting the people of the United States and our allies.

Listen up: Bush is to blame for the way things are in Iraq -- nobody else.

Regarding ending the war: You are wrong to say Kerry "has stated he has intention of ending it." Kerry said he'd do whatever it took to get it over with under the best terms possible for the people of Iraq and the United States. Here's what Kerry actually has said on the topic:


A Strategy for Success in Iraq

To establish security and move forward with the transition to Iraqi sovereignty, the President must show true leadership in going to the major powers to secure their support of Lakhdar Brahimi’s mission, the establishment of a high commissioner for governance and reconstruction, and the creation of a NATO mission for Iraq. These steps are critical to creating a stable Iraq with a representative government and secure in its borders. Meeting this objective is in the interests of NATO member states, Iraq’s neighbors and all members of the international community. True leadership means sharing authority and responsibility for Iraq with others who have an interest in Iraq’s success. Sharing responsibility is the only way to gain new military and financial commitments, allowing America to truly share the burden and the risk.

I. Make Iraq a Part of NATO’s Global Mission

NATO is now a global security organization and creating a stable and secure environment in Iraq must be one of its global missions. Every member of NATO has a huge stake in Iraq’s future. NATO agreement to take on this mission should be reached no later than the NATO summit in late June. NATO can take on this mission in phases, beginning with taking control of Iraq’s border security, and taking over responsibility for northern Iraq and/or the Polish sector, and the training of Iraqi security forces. This would free up as many as 20,000 American troops, open the door to participation by non-NATO countries like India and Pakistan, and send an important message to the American people that we are not bearing the security burden in Iraq virtually alone.

II. Authorize a High Commissioner for Governance and Reconstruction

An international High Commissioner should be authorized by the UN Security Council to organize the political transition to Iraqi sovereignty and the reconstruction of Iraq in conjunction with the new Iraqi government. Backed by a newly broadened security coalition, the High Commissioner will organize elections and the drafting of a constitution, and coordinate reconstruction. The High Commissioner should be an individual who is highly regarded by the international community and who has the credibility and capacity to talk to all the Iraqi people. The High Commissioner should be directed to work with Iraq’s interim government, the new US Ambassador, and the international community after June 30 to ensure a process that continues to move forward on the path toward sovereignty, while focusing on the immediate needs of the Iraqi people. While the process of establishing the High Commissioner is underway, we must fully support the efforts of Lakhdar Brahimi to set-up an Iraqi interim entity.

III. Launch a Massive Effort to Build an Iraqi Security Force

We need a massive training effort to build an Iraqi security force that can actually provide security for the Iraqi people. We must accept that the effort to date has failed and must be rethought and reformed. Training must be done in the field, on the job as well as in the classroom. This key task should be part of the NATO mission, and units should be put on the street with backup from international security forces. The creation of viable Iraqi security forces – military and police – is crucial to a successful exit for us and other international forces.

Source:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq/

[Alerter_]

7. Yes - for Four More Years

if Kerry becomes President. He said so himself.

[Carolina]

11. excellent post, RC

:kick:

While some say this is Bush's war and Bush's war only, all those who enabled him, who voted for the IWR (against the expressed wishes of their constituencies), who continue to say we need to see this thing through, albeit via a different course ... every last one of them has this horror on their hands.

Sadly, this war is now America's war but since it was founded on false premises, propagated by ever-evolving lies and now further undermined by the exposure of the dark underbelly at Abu Ghraib, the US gov't and all of those in it who supported this war have no moral authority and no credibility. They can't be part a new solution because they are the problem.

We need to get out of Iraq now, and Kerry needs to stand up and say so. But alas, it seems 1971 version of Kerry no longer exists.

[Malva Zebrina]

14. I agree--they knew they would at some point have to deny they

knew where Bush was going, but are happy to take over once Bush is gone. I believe those who did vote to give the village idiot the blank check, knew the situation and actually wanted the idiot to invade, screw it up, so they could take over, point out how inept he was, and point out how they can colonize Iraq better than the idiot.

And I believe they want to colonize Iraq, because they , as Bush, want those spoils, those oil wells and that corporate control over that country--and, additionally, we the people of the US.

For that reason, I do not have that much enthusiasm for Kerry or Edwards.

It is too bad I will have to vote for Kerry in order to get the lesser of the evils out and that makes me feel really manipulated.

[Carolina]

23. I feel so much worse than manipulated

I actually despair about the future regardless of a change in resident at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

For several months in 2002, Kerry and Edwards tag-teamed SC at every imaginable Democratic function and I was so enthusiastic about them as a potential 2004 ticket. Then at DemFest in 8/02, a friend of mine and I begged them personally not to support Bush on war that was just starting to be built up in the media. Their responses suggested political expediency and then sure enough, in October they and too many other Dems voted 'aye.' That's when I lost faith with the party and with whole idea of a Kerry-Edwards ticket.

But look where we are today ... in a hell hole of our government's own making with potentially two enablers leading our so-called opposition. Sickening

[Trajan]

While I appreciate your idealism ...

I must admit your predeliction for 'honest' but extremely graphic imagery is reminiscent of those proffered by the Anti-Abortion movement .... who's intent is to form an emotional appeal based on gross images which strike the human psyche with horror, whilst ignoring that sometimes, in some instances: wars MUST be fought ...

I am first a human being ....

I am second a student of life, of the peculiarities of the human condition, and its long history of strife and brutality ... Wars are awful endeavors, yet war is sometimes, in the most extreme case: necessary and just .... The Hitlerian Juggernaut comes to mind as just such a case ... It was 'just and necessary' to remove the Nazi's from Europe .... We neednt ever apologize for fighting then .... Not to say that War in Iraq was also justified ... it was not ... but it is clear thate even a GOOD and moral people must at times engage in just war ... like it or not ....

Yes: THOSE images are indicative of what is wrong with the current policy regarding iraq .... and they explain exactly the human pain and suffering which has been caused by THAT specific policy ....

But that policy is Bush's policy .. it is not Kerry's ....

It seems you are buying the line that, when it comes to Iraq: Kerry = Bush .... yes: that is what ALL the pundits say: especially the Right Wing pundits who have a desire to couple a supposed Kerry policy to Bush's, so that Bush's policy can appear 'mainstream' and acceptable to moderates ...

Yet this is a lie: ... Kerry, while saying he would 'continue' the occupation of Iraq, would NOT do so in the same manner of Bush and his Neocon friends .... The lie is promoted as a salve to Bush's image, as if to clothe him in a 'moderate' position .... but it is falsehood nevertheless: ... Kerry would NOT have done this in this way ..... Yet you have also offered the juxtaposition as valid .... This is plainly false ....

Kerry, if placed into the position of POTUS, WOULD have to form some plan and policy for our extrication from this debacle as it stands now ....

Simply leaving really isnt an option .... the built up ethnic and religious differences can lead to civil war and even GREATER strife and brutality amongst those who remain .... Given the chance: GOOD and moral americans would do what they can to forestall such a dreadful result ... Military power can be used to altruistic ends if done so with a modicum of care and a decent policy of fairness and sanity ...

Like it or not: we 'own' the situation in Iraq, and we need a means of leaving it in a stable manner, with the least suffering among those who still remain ... While there is no guarantee that civil strife will break out, there is ample history to back up this contention .... we shouldnt toss out the baby with the bathwater ...

Kerry has taken the position that the Iraq situation can be alleviated by taking the PROPER steps: to re-internationalise the debacle, and share the 'peacekeeping' burdens with regional powers, such as Saudi Arabian, Iranian, Jordanian and Egyptian troops under the banner of the UN ... to provide a LEGITIMATE track for self governance based on legal plebescite and individual enfranchisement ... NOT the establishment of an american satrapy or puppet government ...

In all: the differences between Kerry and Bush regarding Iraq are huge: MUCH greater than your emotional appeal is designed to imply ...

War is ugly and THIS war was unnecessary .... but we are there now, and good people exist in Iraq who are innocent .... and those innocent human beings now deserve a chance to get it right ....

Simply leaving presents pitfalls and dangers that may be better than what Bush offers the future, but could be far worse than what sane leadership, like that provided by the sane administration of John Kerry, could provide those innocent human beings ....

Your assertion that Kerry = Bush is flat out wrong ....

[RapidCreek]

17. Interesting....

I have to wonder why you didn't share your comparison with Anti-Abortion activists on this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1638511&mesg_id=1638511&page=

You honestly believe that Iraqi's want Saudi arabian, Iranian, Jordanian and Egyptian troops telling them how to run their country any more than they do US troops? Now that's pretty funny.

RC

[Trajan]

29. I generally avoid such images always ....

Why ? ... not to shy away from reality, but in recognition that while such imagery is reality, one needs to live within their own mind day in and day out .... keeping the mind clear is my prerogative ... such images, if not kept in check by powerful reason, can become violent pornography ....

It is important to know the reality ... but it is equally important, in my view, to not revel in the ugliness ....

I believe that bad can be made good ....

I believe that man CAN resist subjugation, and should ...

I believe that, even though Bush entered the US into an unjust and unnecessary war, that reasonable americans, using superior statesmanship and multilateral diplomacy to create an international consensus, They CAN form the basis of a reasonable conclusion, with the direct consensus of the affected parties, and the world community at large ... This is how we now avoid worldwide conflagration now: through international consensus ... to say that Saudi, Iran, Jordan and Egypt and the like would NOT be appropriate in staking out a temporary secure and safe Iraq, is to deny that international consensus and multilateral peacekeeping CANNOT be tried or used ... ever ..

If NOT the saudis, then who ? ..

If NOT the Jordanian arab brethren of the iraqis, then who ? ...

Instead of obsessing on the 'reality' of such brutal imagery and its immediate cause (which we know is unjust), perhaps we should be seeking a RESOLUTION that satisfies the human cause of justice and self determination ....

Your post simply degrades Kerry, and for no good or justifiable reason ....

Unless, of course, you buy the lie that Bush = Kerry .... or worse yet: promote that lie ....

Note that you did not refute the premises of the arguments presented ...

Duly noted ....

[RapidCreek]

42. Duly Noted?

You didn't answer the question I posed...why did you not share your comparison with Will? Why is looking at or showing pictures of Americans torturing Iraqi's any more acceptable or honorable or different than doing the same with those of this wars victims?

It is important to know the reality? Sorry fella but you don't know the reality....and you won't know it until something reminiscent of the horrors presented in the pictures above happens to YOU and/or YOURS. You can sit in your armchair pontificating about the human condition while offering sage advice on justice and self determination but it ain't your ass getting wasted in the mean time, is it?

Since you like to wax philosophical about self determination...perhaps you should consider what exactly self determination is. When one does not determine for oneself one is not engaging in self determination. If Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians, Iranians, Americans, Brits, Aussies etc. etc. are telling you what you must do or not do at the point of a gun...then you ain't doing much self determination, now are you?

You suggest that Bush entered our country into an illegal and unjust war? How astute. What you neglect to mention or address is the very clear fact that he didn't do it by himself. He did it with Kerry's help. Now that the preventative war has morphed into a war of liberation...has your buddy Kerry stated, that if elected, the first thing he would do would be to stop all US efforts to privatize Iraqi's Nationalized business endeavors? NO HE HAS NOT. Golly I wonder why? Doesn't sound like liberation to me....sounds like theft! Kerry puts into pretty words his intent to share the spoils with other nations interested in being accessories after the fact...and folks like you piss all over yourselves. Yea I gotta admit that's pretty admirable.

My post doesn't degrade Kerry....Kerry degraded Kerry....that's a done deal...you can't unring a rung bell. He degraded himself when he didn't have the political balls to stand up like a man and say "No, I'm not going to give you carte blanch to start a war with Iraq, you thieving, lying, cheating, cowardly little twerp". Instead he cured like a puppy and voted for the IWR. My post points out the results of curing like a puppy in the face of a demonstrable evil. It points out the results of degrading oneself. If you look at a pile of shit your dog left on the living room carpet you aren't degrading your dog...your dog degraded himself by shitting on the rug.

The results of Kerry's self degradation are represented in the pictures above..your suggestion that I presented these results for no good reason is chilling. Is not the subject matter in the pictures reason enough? Put the face of your own child, mother, father, brother on those dead and suffering above and tell me it isn't.

RC

[Karenina]

20. Simply leaving really isn't an option ....

I beg to differ. It is the ONLY sane course. GET THE RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM. The victim has NO INTEREST at this time in having the RAPIST hang around to "help" with the "cleanup." NONE. ZERO.

Job One: ESCORT THE RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM.

[Carolina]

25. excellent analogy

:kick:

[Trajan]

37. False analogy ...

This issue is too complex for such easy and simplistic answers ....

One cannot ignore the implications of anarchy ... this is human fact based on historical perspective ....

[Trajan]

35. This is not an option ....

Human nature, without governance, is animalistic ...

The state of nature, and the nature of man itself, is cause enough to 'remain' ....

Honestly: is leaving REALLY the best option ? ...

What happens then ? ...

When sunnis direct their fire against someone other than the US, who will be in the cross hairs ? ....

Anarchy is an ugly state ..... such a place becomes a darwinian experiment .... it has been seen many times in history, and is nearly ALWAYS bad news ...

I am against promoting a loss of civil safety and security ANYWHERE .. not just iraq .... but EVEREYWHERE ....

I posit that leaving the innocent iraqis, the women and children, the gentle man and peaceful human beings, to the wiles and uncertainty of 'anarchy' with its concurrent loss of security on the ground amd in the neighborhoods, is a dereliction of basic humanity ...

Hey ? ... You want to just up and leave ? .... I would say no, but wouldnt stop you from leaving ... You would be that person who promoted that policy .... but you would own the results ...

IF we just up and left, and the result was MORE death, MORE destruction, MORE suffering of innocents .... then such a result would be 'owned' by those who promoted it ....

You would own the result ....

Consider that ....

[Karenina]

44. Your post is SO FULL of WHITE SUPREMACIST MEMES.

:puke: I don't want to fight with you or anyone Trajan. I simply ask you to consider this from another corner on the intersection. WHY are YOU so worried about what THEY might do? What YOU and your *MIC have consistently presented as a "holier-than-thou" solution has succeeded only in inflaming the situation further. Indeed, it would seem to many that the *MIC is doing everything in its power to foment CHAOS. (Check the reports from Najaf and Karbala today).

CLEAN UP YOUR OWN FETID FUCKING BACKYARD FIRST. YOU CANNOT "EXPORT" SOMETHING YOU DON'T POSESS and if you think for a minute "democracy" is alive and well in America, then you are SERIOUSLY DELUDED. The TORTURE POLICY came from the TOP. It is a CLEAR REFLECTION of how Americans and those they've "chosen" to represent them view other human beings. GET YOUR FUCKING *PREDATORY MILITARY AND ECONOMIC FORCES THE HELL OUT OF IRAQ. The "brown" folks will deal with the hand they've been dealt by your card sharks informed by a history MUCH LONGER THAN YOURS.

[RapidCreek]

49. I couldn't have said it better

Thanks for saving me from trying.

RC

[Carolina]

50. you nailed it, again Karenina

keep up the great and true posts which some folks obviously can't seem to handle!

[mike1963]

22. Another angle to consider is this: There is no way to accurately predict

what the Iraq situation will be during the period between 6/30 and the election and that makes it damnably difficult to propose specific strategies to deal with those "unknowns we don't know we don't know", or something like that. And of course we also can't predict, really, what Chimpy will do in the interim. (Given, of course, he is wont to "stay the course", but who the hell knows what the 'course' actually is?)

What I'm trying to say is that the situation on the ground future-wise
may well suggest a path nobody has yet envisioned. It seems to me that using a "magic eight-ball" device would have produced no worse results than we've seen so far. Maybe that's exactly what the neocon idiots really used, though....:eyes: :eyes:

[RoyGBiv]

48. Kerry = Bush is flat out wrong ....

Very well stated.

Thank you for posting this.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. I am not sure where you are going in some points of your post, but

share your pain and your angst about the suffering that has occurred due to our leaders and our congress , especially after viewing those photos. There are so many of them to be seen and they are all just so very sad.

[RapidCreek]

15. Read Willy Boys post and all will become clear

The point of my post is this....If you support a candidate don't start ingorant threads which can quite be easily turned against you.


RC

[Malva Zebrina]

19. Oh

didn't he say he was the press person and working with and for Kucinich? Yes, I am certain he did take on that job for Kucinich and posted that here on DU. Is that not a contradiction ?

[Tinoire]

34. Will Pitt only worked for Kucinich about 14 days

& during all 14 he spent more time here pumping up Kerry than talking about Kucinich.

Please... As a Kucinich supporter, I beg you, don't even mention that Will worked with Kucinich because that was a joke and several DUers sent links of Will's posts to the Kucinich campaign asking what kind of a Press secretary he was. I now regret not having been one of them.

[Malva Zebrina]

43. Hmm OK

I supported Kucinich myself in my caucus.

Here in Maine, in this district, the attendance to this caucus was simply huge, never before seen, and amazing.


Most were for Kerry, less for Dean, and even less for Kucinich. Nevertheless, we six, brave and independant, supporters of Kucinich, got a delegate! We nominated a cute, shy young man to represent us. He was really so cute and so proud to do so. It was really fun this time.


I was not aware that the claim to be a representative press release person for the Kucinich campaign, lasted only two weeks.

That says something.

[FlashHarry]

26. So, what's your alternative, pray tell?

Vote for a third-party candidate? Vote Kucinich? Not vote at all? I hope not, because those alternatives would waste an anti-Bush vote--something this country can't afford to do. We saw what happened in Florida four years ago. We know that every vote really does count. If you waste your vote on some manichean, idealistic stunt, you're just as bad as a Hummer-driving Republican, because your political statements will have identical consequences.

I don't agree with Kerry on everything. I'm not blindly loyal. But I am a realist and a student of history. This election is different. It is perhaps the most important in our country's history. It should not be taken lightly.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. the painful point is that there is NO alternative

and it is nice that you are a student of history. It certainly is a very important important election. I agree.

The uncomfortable part is that those who abhor Bush and realize what a mess he has made, and where he would be going if elected, are also practically forced to vote for a candidate that actually GAVE him the go ahead to invade Iraq.

That, I think, is the beef with Kerry, and also with Edwards, who was amongst the first to be willing to give an idiot the go ahead to murder thousands on lies.

That is the rub here.\

We who realize this, will vote for Kerry. We cannot stand a Bush.

But we also do not support Kerry's version of the war on terra or on Iraq

Do you not find that strange? I do.

[FlashHarry]

31. Well-put.

I think Kerry's vote for the use of force in Iraq was a craven, self-serving act of cowardice. However, we cannot go back in time. We cannot un-invade Iraq. Kerry has a plan. Bush doesn't. That's enough for me. (Not to mention health care, judicial appointments, the right to choose, fiscal responsibility, etc. etc.)

[Malva Zebrina]

32. Yes, but that assumption, that we "cannot uninvade" Iraq

has been the ace in the hole for those who used political reasoning when they voted to give Bush the blank check.

They actually KNEW they could confront Bush with this if he failed. and if he did NOT fail, they KNEW they could tout it that they supported this

You see, it was all political, except for a few brave, solitary souls who spoke on the Senate floor against this slaughter.

Others just played the political game--and Kerry is included in that as a game player.

For that, I do not have much respect for him, or Edwards, or Gephart.

To tell the truth, I am disgusted with all of them who played that game and who continue to =play that game by saying

"Oh, we did not know"--or "We did the best we could" or "we were not given good intelligence information"

pathetic

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlashHarry]

27. I'm not a Kerry supporter. I'm a Democrat.

And I know, with 100% certitude, that Kerry's mere presence in the White House will have a positive effect on the global community. And perhaps--just perhaps--it will help spur a new international effort to bring self-rule to Iraq, instead of this asinine, destructive "occupation."

[Nlighten1]

38. I think you might be correct but...

time will tell...color me a cynic...I am taking a wait and see approach. I think if Kerry wins there will be great euphoria world-wide but I just hope he doesn't squander it by taking his time in implementing his plan for peace in the Middle East...

Does he have a plan? I mean one BESIDES bringing in NATO and the UN. We can't count on them to come and rescue us.

If Kerry doens't act quickly when he takes office it could very well cost him dearly.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kvnf]

33. oh god

This entire thread is making me despair.

[Carolina]

36. I know, so sorry

But I lost hope after I spoke to Kerry and Edwards in summer 2002, see my reply to Marianne above.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Speaking of confrontational, was that your intent with this post?...

Sure seems that way to me when you wrote the following:

"It is dangerous to invite contemplation of what exactly the differences are between the lessor of two evils.

You should perhaps put the whiskey away fella...you ain't doing your cause any good with confrontational posts of the sort this one answers."

I won't bother adding "Peace and Inner Harmony" as you did in your post, because that clearly wasn't your intent, was it? IMHO, if you even had a cause, you absolutely destroyed it in your last two paragraphs. That's YOUR problem, not Will Pitt's.

One more point...if you can't understand what four more years of NeoCon rule will do to this country, then maybe you should just stay home on Election Day. A vote for anyone but Kerry in November will be an absolute waste.

[FlashHarry]

41. My thoughts exactly.

:kick:

[RapidCreek]

47. What seems what way?

Will invited confrontation and I gave it to him.

My cause? My cause is to point out intentionally abrasive hypocrasy baby....a cause I wouldn't have formulated if it hadn't been invited. That's the point....Willy boys post was designed to piss people like myself off. I have made an effort to bight my tongue and swallow down the bile which arises when I recognize I will have to vote for a man who was complicit with an AWOL, Cowardly, lying cheater in creating the pain, death and suffering you see above....not to mention that which was depicted in Wills post.

I prefer peace and inner harmony...but if you fart in my face and tell me I should enjoy the aroma...I'm gonna kick you in your ass....get it?

I must assume that someone as perportadly bright as Will would understand that threads like the one he started are going to elicit responses like mine....and seeing as how he is a Kerry drum banger I naturally assumed he would have to be under the influence of something which impeded his thought proccesses to make one. Maybe I give him to much credit.

RC

[Monte Carlo]

40. Oh, get over yourself.

You bring no new and novel perspective on the matter. You talk as if you aren't part of this whole mess, that it doesn't involve you. If you want to venture beyond the Commander-in-Chief for blame, there's no reason to stop with Sen. Kerry. Those soldiers wear AMERICAN flags. This is OUR situation.

[Kazak]

45. So, you think Kerry is just going to continue with Bush's power grab?

He's going to try to deal with the mess Bush made for us as best as possible.

[JackRiddler]

46. complete bullshit

I could waste my time finding photos of Yugoslavians killed by Clinton, Iraqis starved by the sanctions, or Palestinians whose deaths were financed by the U.S. under Clinton. Or I could search for dead Vietnamese from the Johnson era.

But this is cheap propaganda.

Kerry is just the man to continue the war. And invade Saudi Arabia, if need be. Bush has become expendable. The world will rejoice to see Bush go because he's the bastard they know. But there is no guarantee Kerry wouldn't wage wars as vicious as Bush's. Unfortunately this has been the American way.

[CTLawGuy]

51. kerry voted

for all those things.

Shame on him.

[Moderator]

52. Locking.

Do not start a new discussion thread with the purpose of "calling out" another member. Do not post personal attacks on members of DU.