Would you support a business that ADVERTISES their Christianity?

[elfwitch]

You've seen it in phone books. Businesses with the Jesus fish on their ad or that announce , "We are a Christan company". You've seen places that have signs that say, "Closed on Sunday for Worship and family".

Would you support a business like this with your hard earned wages?

[cheezus]

1. for every one of us it turns off, they get two more fundies

who would loving nothing more to EXCLUSIVELY interact only with christians.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. You based this ratio on what data?

Just wondering.

[cheezus]

11. the number of jesus fish on cars compared to darwin fish

Then I used the most sophisticated statistical modeling methods along with aggregated data supplied by NASA and the NSF. It took 34 hours on a 66 teraflop mainframe at oak ridge national labrotories to do the computations.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. In other words , no data at all, i.e. your comment is meaningless n/t

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. You may think I'm an ass

but I don't think your 'humorous' comment was funny. Indeed, your failed attempt at humor did nothing but highlight my point: that your original comment was pure speculation unsupported by any facts whatsover.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

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[Feanorcurufinwe]

150. I don't give a fuck about your opinion of me.

I pointed out that your post was pure speculation, unsupported by facts, you responded by calling me an 'ass' -- and now you are lecturing me on etiquette? :eyes:

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

178. LOL

"Sorry for the name calling, but that made you an ass. "

Apparently you have nothing to say other than insults. Even in your 'apology' for the namecalling, you felt it necessary to repeat it.

"Anyway, sorry if you feel insulted or your feelings got hurt."

It is not necessary for you to apologize for what you erroneously believe are my feelings. When people make sincere apologies, they are apologizing for their own actions, not other people's reactions.

However, I do not request, I do not desire, nor do I expect, an apology.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

196. Repeating an insult is a strange form of 'manners'.

Go ahead, insult me again if you feel the need.

[DavidMS]

2. As long as they have a picture of Dorothy Day in the window...

I am fine with it.

See http://www.catholicworker.org/ for details. Still don't love their views on womens' rights but they are allies on most other issues.

Or if they clearly indicate they are Unitarian-Universalists.

Thankfully neither group encourages it.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

4. I would be uncomfortable

As I'm not a Christian and no doubt any businessperson wanted to advertise their religion would feel the need to proseltize me. Been there, done that, have the mental scars.

[mzmolly]

5. It depends on the Business. I belive in religious tolerance.

Christianity included.

If a business closed for Ramadan I would not stop being supportive would you?

On edit, I am more concered with supporting pro-Bush businesses.

[HFishbine]

6. Definitely depends on the business

I wouldn't patronize a doctor who interjects faith into business, but I wouldn't avoid a muffler shop that did so.

[Love Bug]

7. Possibly, but...

...don't just expect that they are more honest or will give you a better deal because they claim to be Christian. Look at the "Christians" running the WH right now--every one of them give Christ a black eye. Or Kenny Lay, who professes to be an Evangelical Christian--look how he treated his employees and stockholders.

Just because someone claims to be a Christian, doesn't automatically make them so.

"By their fruits ye shall know them." --Jesus

[Stuckinthebush]

8. Let's think about this from a business perspective...

When I see the X-fish on an ad for whatever service, my first reaction is, "Oh, Christ! Not again!" But, then my business mind starts going and I realize that in my area (Alabama), that is a brilliant move. I'm not saying that I should put the fish on my advertisements because that would be false advertising, but people who really feel that they have a "Christian" company probably should do it in certain areas. Why? Because it brings in business.

Say you are a self described "Christian" (I use the quotation marks to distinguish between fundamentalists and every other Christian), you are looking for someone to come service your central heating and air system. When you open up the yellow pages and skim the ads, you see:

"Cletus's Heating and Air - You can always trust Cletus with your climate control!" and next to the picture of Cletus is a little fish.

Now you don't care about the 12 other ads in the phone book, because Cletus has identified himself as someone you can trust by placing that little fish on his ad. Smart man, Cletus.

[Desertrose]

14. even more reason to avoid them

IMHO- using their *personal relationship with god* in a secular way to bring in business...what does this have to do with it anyway? just another ploy.....

tacky tacky tacky......but then....:shrug:
we are out of touch about most everything else, why should this be any different?

Peace
DR

[Stuckinthebush]

31. Oh, I agree...

but I also see the excellent business building ability that the fish has.

[immoderate]

106. What if you own a fish store?

--IMM

[drfemoe]

49. ditto ..

All the more reason to avoid them. That *I'm *special* .. to "God"*, not only doesn't sell to me, it makes me seek other services.

It galls me when I choose the convenience of the local health food store, because I know fundies own it. They aren't as pushy as they used to be. I make every effort to plan so I can drive further in to shop at a Whole Foods.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gin]

12. If they need to advertise that they are good honest people...I think

they probably aren't. Good, honest, decent business practices reflect the integrity of the owners.

I know many "religious" hypocrits.

[AntiCoup2K4]

89. And fuck rabid antitheists while you're at it.

Please don't compare the faith of millions (and I don't mean the reich wingers) to "shame" or "superstition".

[Loonman]

Tolerance is a two way street

Yep.

[utopian]

10. It depends on how it's displayed

Lots of Asian businesses have Buddhist shrines in their businesses, but they're not pushing Buddhism on the clientele. Displaying their religion doesn't offend me.

I think the same holds true for most faiths. Display it, and I don't care; Try to push it on my, and you've lost my business.

[loftycity]

13. I think it gives a false impression of honesty and truthfulness

I think many people will be taken in by a misleading ad. Saying your are a christian and/or claiming to be honest. These provide good hiding places for the greedy and the dishonest.

[Bronco69]

17. Amen to that!

I can't even begin to count the number of people I've encountered that hide behind the bible! As soon as you call them on one of their misdeeds they immediately pull out the "I'm a Xtian, are you calling me a liar?" card. They make me sick!

[stopthegop]

22. how do you know it would be a false impression? eom

[Wapsie B]

15. Not me.

But to a konservative fundy it might mean all the difference in the world. I mean, they wouldn't want to give their hard-earned dollars to some devil-worhipping Democrat now would they?

[tnlefty]

16. OTHER - not just no but hell no

From many experiences these are the folks who will screw up the work that they do and then refuse to return to fix or correct the problem. When I see something like that my "don't get screwed again" memory cells start kicking into hyper drive!

[silverlib]

18. I rely more on "word of mouth"

But I have to say that I patronized a local Dairy Queen whose franchise owners recognized Saturday as a religious holiday (not sure which religion) and I thought that was cool. It must have cost them a lot of money to stand for what they believed and close on Saturday.

Hobby Lobby, my favorite local craft store, closes on Sundays so their staff can worship (or not).

Some of the fish things lead me to believe a business is promoting on something other than word of mouth reference. I wouldn't be more likely to choose a business based on a Christian fish.

[Nashyra]

20. I make a point of Not doing business

with anyone who uses a "fish" in their advertising and I do believe in Christianity and proud of it. It has no place in advertising, isn't. I thought that is why churches were tax exempt? So why should the Chrisitian symbol be used to generated income. No they do not get my money or my business, but I do alot of business with people who I know are Chrisitians.

[AntiCoup2K4]

93. Must have been 7th day adventists?

I say that rather than Jews, because Dairy Queen, by definition, is a most un-Kosher business. Burgers and ice cream in the same meal? Oy vey!

[elfwitch]

95. 7th day adventists

They stick to the same kosher laws that Orthodox Jews do. I once worked with a man who was 7th day adventists. He was way stricter than I am about kosher laws.

[AntiCoup2K4]

136. Honestly hadn't heard that before

...though it does make sense, since they keep the Sabbath as Jews do. Seems the 7th day adventists I've known have been vegetarians, but I wasn't aware of them sticking to a kosher diet.

[pop goes the weasel]

19. I voted "other"

I don't patronize businesses that advertise themselves as Christian when their business is not exclusively for Christians (a Christian bookstore would be OK). I immediately suspect that anyone who has to advertise that they belong to a particular religion isn't doing a very good job of showing it in their daily behavior. I also suspect that is is a way of fleecing the sheep.

Give me an honest businessperson, of whatever religion or none, who demonstrates his or her ethics by being ethical, not by sticking a fish or a crescent or a star of David on their business card.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

21. other. i believe they use religion for their own gains

and i find that very hypocritical.

[wryter2000]

23. Once upon a time

Once upon a time I would have thought it was their business and they could put whatever they wanted in their ads (within reason -- not kiddie porn or espousing violence). But I'm so sick to death of having Xtianity shoved in my face now, I'd exercise my choice and find another company to do business with. Enuf is enuf!

[elfwitch]

26. "I'm so sick to death of having Xtianity shoved in my face "

Me too. I can't remember when I was growing up hearing nearly as much about politician's religion as I do now. The fundies are out of control. At some point they figured that they could beat people up with their faith. I am sick to death of it. Instead of saying you are a Christian, why not act like one?

They are like the boy who cried wolf. "Look at me!! I'm a Christian" Then you show up and find out they did something horrid to someone. "Look at me!! I'm a Christian" Then you show up and find out they denied someone rights because they aren't true believers. "Look at me!! I'm a Christian" Then you show up and find out that they burned books or swapped real science books with Creation Science books, or any number of other horrible things they do in the name of "Their Lord and Savior".

How many times are they going to cry "Christian" before people stop believing them?

[mmonk]

24. I tend not to

I expect religious stores to advertise in religious terms but some businesses unrelated to religious trade that put their religion out there in advertisements like that tend to be backward and bigoted. I have no intention of finding out if they are that type or not or providing them with any of money.

[theboss]

25. "A business like this with your hard earned wages?"

You make it sound like they are advertising association with the KKK.

I go to a Dentist that advertises as a Christian business. They play Christian music over the sound system and have free Bibles to take home in the lobby. It's a little strange, but he's an extremely good dentist.

We've actually had some pretty interesting discussions. He's clearly an Evangelical while I'm from a less aggressive branch of Christianity.

[mmonk]

27. In general,

how do you sort them out unless you know them?

[theboss]

32. Sort who out?

If the business is "Christian," it will have a sign somewhere. If it isn't, you probably don't have to worry about someone scaring you with Jesus talk.

[mmonk]

91. the places of business

I would expect the adverising if it were a store selling christian items, offering a church related service, etc. I'm talking about stores unrelated to religion that advertise the religion of the owners. If I know something of these people, I'll probably use their business regardless. If I don't know them or of them, I will probably go to a business that doesn't advertise the religion of the owners. There most likely is a reason they want to let everyone including strangers what their religion is. If I want to go buy a widget, I want to only discuss and purchase the widget. You see, I grew up Catholic here in the bible belt. To get into a religious discussion here usually leads to that person trying to "save" me or they say something like "I could tell you something about the Catholic Church", though I don't think they would know more about the church I attend than I do.

[Cheswick2.0]

187. LOL, sometimes people even scare me with Jesus talk

I don't get the "personal walk with my buddy Jesus" stuff. I appreciate the rights of people to have that in their life. I just think it's all a little too familiar for the son of man.

Give me my remote, mysterious Yankee Jesus, thankee very much.

[noonwitch]

28. It depends on the business

If they offer the best product, I'll buy theirs. I had a mechanic once who had christian symbols in his advertising and was a bit of a fundie. He was a nice guy and he never ripped me off with unnecessary repairs.

Also, if, for example, you want to buy a bible for someone and have the name engraved, you pretty much have to go to a christian bookseller.

[theboss]

33. By the way . . .

No one would dare ask this about "Black-owned" businesses.

[stopthegop]

35. that's true...or Jewish owned..or Muslim owned..

that would be 'intolerant' or 'bigotted'

[elfwitch]

40. see comment #37

The rest of us don't feel the need to advertise what race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation the owner of the business is.

They are putting it out there. I'm not outing people as Christans, they are offering it up.

[theboss]

42. Again, what city are you in?

I've seen all the above.

[stopthegop]

43. but if a business advertised with a Star of David or

a Crescent...would it be OK for someone to not do business with them because of that fact?

[elfwitch]

53. if that's their bag

At least in name, we are still a free country.
They have just as much right not to walk in to a Judaica shop as I do to avoid Chick-Fil-A.

[stopthegop]

56. true....but my point is that many here..

would consider that to be 'bigotry'....

on edit...not a Judaica shop...an auto mechanic who advertised with the Star of David, or a Crescent

[elfwitch]

57. call it what you like...

If I choose not to give my money to a group of people that hate my people, you can call me a bigot if you want.

If a black person chose to not frequent a place that flew the Confederate flag, you could call them a bigot too.

But the tendency of Christians to act like a persecuted minority is beyond a little sickening. If they are persecuted I am a fairy princess.

[stopthegop]

59. question: who are your people

that you think Christians hate?

[elfwitch]

69. Fist of all, they hate a lot of people....

More specifically, for example, there is a platform in the Southern Baptist Convention that states that it is their duty to try to convert every Jew they meet. Jews, as they are all told, are going straight to hell. Jews need to be saved from themselves. Jews do not believe in God because in their eyes God is Jesus. They also still teach that the Jews killed Jesus. A little film called :The Passion" summed that up nicely for all those to see. So my people are the Jewish people.

But while we are talking about people they hate, let's think about all our gay brothers and sisters that are harassed and worse for being gay. Let's think back to how it was the Religious Right that used their Christianity to justify slavery and segregation.

“I want to tell you that there’s not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the Negro race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches.”
— Senator Strom Thurmond

Don't even pretend that they don't hate everybody who doesn't believe in Jesus exactly the way they do.

[stopthegop]

74. I'm not pretending ...you're mistaken

thinking someone is wrong is not hating them...saying you hope to convert someone to your beliefs is not hating them...

the hatred is coming from yourself...not Christians...

there are certainly INDIVIDUALS who hate...in any group...but Christians as a group don't ...

[elfwitch]

85. Christians don't HATE?

You gotta be F-ing kidding me right?

How many wars have been started throughout history because of Christians wanting to forcibly convert those who don't believe as they do? The Crusades come to mind.

How about the Inquisition? How about the forcible expulsion of Jews from every country on the planet so far except the United States?

I am wary of anyone who would tell me that I am going to hell because i don't believe what they do. Instead of accepting that people believe in different things, they go out and harangue those who don't "agree" with them.

If I had a dollar for every time some Christian with the love of Jesus in their heart condemned me to hell for not accepting their Savior, I could run for political office. Because my war chest would be HUGE!

You don't get to the point I am at without being shown so-called "Christian Love" way too often. If you want to find out how much love and how little hate they have for others, start a thread asking how many people of non-Christian or unacceptable lifestyle persuasions have felt the wrath of Christian Love.

I'm sure more than a few of our gay, Muslim, Jewish, and Atheist members could tell you about how much Christians don't hate.

[stopthegop]

87. I was speaking of here/now...not the Crusades or Inquisition..

and the Christians don't say who will go to Hell, the Bible does...and if you've been mistreated I'm sorry...but you're still incorrect, and blinded by your own hatred...

[elfwitch]

90. I'll cop to hatred if...

you cop to Christians are way out of line for trying to force their moral code on others.

Example: Dallas is largely a Baptist city. The Baptists believe that you shouldn't imbibe alcohol. They got together and decided for everyone else that you cannot buy alcohol. As a consequence, anybody who is not a Baptist has to often drive way out of their way to buy alcoholic beverages. Their moral code was imposed upon me. Their belief that alcohol is evil made the decision for everybody else who doesn't have a problem with it. They think they know better than you do about how you should live their lives. They are forcing their moral code on me.

I am not blinded by hatred. My eyes are wide open. I see all the hate that is perpetrated in the name of Jesus. Not only throughout history but now as well. The war in Iraq is GWs crusade to being Christianity, I mean Democracy to the Muslims, I mean Iraqi people.

If you can't see that then I am sorry for you.

[stopthegop]

96. you're mis-stating the case in Dallas (I think)..

if you can't buy alcohol it's because of a law, right?...the law was imposed by democratically elected officials wasn't it? or did some Baptist somewhere just decree it? any number of laws effect people who don't agree with the law...

your eyes may be open, but you're still blinded ...by more than just your hatred of Christians...

good luck

[elfwitch]

111. no sir it is you who are blind....

You honestly think that there is not a fierce Right Wing Christan agenda in this country?

I'll delve in to the Dallas situation a little further by providing another example. Prohibition.

Prohibition in the United States was a measure designed to reduce drinking by eliminating the businesses that manufactured, distributed, and sold alcoholic beverages. The Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution took away license to do business from the brewers, distillers, vintners, and the wholesale and retail sellers of alcoholic beverages. The leaders of the prohibition movement were alarmed at the drinking behavior of Americans, and they were concerned that there was a culture of drink among some sectors of the population that, with continuing immigration from Europe, was spreading.

The prohibition movement's strength grew, especially after the formation of the Anti-Saloon League in 1893. The League, and other organizations that supported prohibition such as the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, soon began to succeed in enacting local prohibition laws. Eventually the prohibition campaign was a national effort.

The prohibition leaders believed that once license to do business was removed from the liquor traffic, the churches and reform organizations would enjoy an opportunity to persuade Americans to give up drink. This opportunity would occur unchallenged by the drink businesses ("the liquor traffic") in whose interests it was to urge more Americans to drink, and to drink more beverage alcohol. The blight of saloons would disappear from the landscape, and saloon-keepers no longer allowed to encourage people, including children, to drink beverage alcohol.

Historians often describe the 1920s as a decade of contrasts and conflicts. Freedoms in dress, behavior, and sexual attitudes clashed with a new Puritanism. The automobile was replacing the old horse and buggy. There were conflicts between the traditional small-town way of life and a new urbanism and cosmopolitanism. In the 1920s, some Americans saw life as a glorious orgy, with the popularization of Freud, songs such as "Hot Lips" and "I Need Lovin,'" and movies called "Up in Mabel's Room" and "Her Purchase Price." On the other hand, religious fundamentalism underwent a rebirth, as people tried to latch onto the traditional moral standards--either real or imagined--of bygone years. Overall, the decline of the Anglo-Saxon class as the most influential group in American society characterized this time period. Even as the power of the Anglo-Saxon establishment was on the wane, one of its final attempts at holding onto control was the passage of national Prohibition.

Consequently a small percentage of people effectively lobbied to change to Constitution to forbid a behavior based on a moral code of their choosing.

In Dallas, the Baptist population rallied to change the laws that effected ALL people, not just them. Prohibition is a perfect example of the moral relativism of the few effecting the masses.

[stopthegop]

115. was the law changed by elected officials?

that's how democracy works...seems if the majority of the public objected it would have been much less likely

[elfwitch]

Oh yes because the majority of the public votes....

And of course the majority of the public wanted Al Gore as their President. So that is why he is in the White House right now?

[stopthegop]

126. so those that didn't vote....do they care? eom...

as to Gore...electoral college...but you knew that...

[elfwitch]

135. maybe they don't know enough about the situation to care...

Who knows why people don't vote. If you can explain it to me I'd love to know. But the fact remains that a small group of motivated people in our "democracy" can make changes for the masses. IE Prohibition.

[stopthegop]

139. yes they can...sometimes good...sometimes bad...

it's how the system works...if there was a national referendum, do you think we'd end up with 'gay marriage' ..or 'affirmative action' ..or 'prayer in schools'?

[elfwitch]

148. One would hope that the system works well enough

to enact laws that are for the good of society. Laws that exist to restrict behavior purely on one person or one groups version of morality is wrong.

There shouldn't have to be a law banning or legalizing gay marriage. If you are gay and you choose to get married, you should be able to. The laws restricting gay marriage are based on the moral values of certain groups. If they don't believe that gays shouldn't get married, then they shouldn't be gay and try to get married.

There shouldn't have to be a law about affirmative action. If the world worked on fairness and ability alone, the person who is most qualified for the job would get said job. but the world doesn't work that way. Individuals or groups decided that people of color or minorities would not be haired at their place of business solely on the basis of race, color, creed, etc. That is why there is a law regarding such.

There shouldn't have to be a law enforcing prayer in schools. There is nothing to say that an individual or group in a school cannot pray on their own time. You need the laws to protect the people from being forced to pray at a specific time.

You cannot force morality on people at the end of a gun and you shouldn't do it with laws either. Morality is individual. I have no more right to tell you what you should do in the privacy of you own home than you do to tell me what to do in mine.

There are many bad laws. The Patriot Act comes to mind.

[elfwitch]

122. dupe

[outinforce]

151. Prohibition

Who is behind the drive to ban smoking in public places like bars and restaurants?

If you say "Christians", you are, I think, just wrong.

It is certainly true that some Christian denominations have a moral objection to the use of tobacco, but I think it is a real stretch to suggest that "morality" -- Christian morality -- is being forced down the throat of those people in New York, Provincetown, and elsewhere who cannot light up a cigarette after dinner in a restaurant in those places or who must step outside, aways from the bar, if they wish to light up while having a drink in those places.

My point is that not all forms of prohibition -- or "shoving" a point of view down the throats of others is based upon religion.

Secular folks do it too.

[elfwitch]

159. and on that point you would be entirely correct...

However there are many cases where laws are enacted solely on the basis of one person or groups moral objection with certain types of behavior.

Abortion is one groups objection to a certain type of behavior. One side believes that 4 cells in a Fallopian tube is a full fledged person. The other side doesn't. One side believes it is their business to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her reproductive system. The other side doesn't. One side thinks that they know better about what is right and wrong at a moral level for people who aren't themselves. The other side doesn't.

Let's just say, for example, that you masturbate frequently (several times a week or more). There are many religions that feel that masturbation is a mortal sin. You think it is fine and non of their business. How would you fell if they got together and created a law banning masturbation? If caught you could be fined $1000 and spend 30 days in jail for each act. Well then that would be a bad law. It would also be a law based entirely on some people's belief in what is right and what is wrong. Society isn't hurt by masturbation. So there shouldn't be laws regulating it.

There were laws making sodomy illegal. Slowly those laws are going away. But you can bet that the people that put them on the books in the first place did it as a moral objection and not in any response to society being harmed by the act.

[outinforce]

167. You Earlier Chided Me

You earlier chided me for a post that you felt was waaay off topic for this thread.

I will not chide you for introducing a subject I feel quite passionately about on this thread, inasmuch as I am guilty, too, of veering off the subject at hand.

Much as I would like to adress your comments abiout abortion here, I must refrain from doing so.

Because I can predict that this thread would then become a discussion not about businesses that advertize with fishes, rainbows, or the medical sign from "female" in their windows.

And I do not wish to cause that to happen.

If you wold like to discuss abortion with me, you can start another thread in Civil Rights, or you can feel free to IM me privately, using DU's system.

[Selwynn]

114. I don't feel you are being honest.

Friend, I call myself a Christian, though depending on who I am talking too I find I have a lot more explaining to do. I believe that part of posessing an genuine Christian experience means being open and honest about the many horrible things done in the name of Christian faith over and over and over again throughout history AND right now, in this very nation and around the world.

It is incorrect and incredible to attempt to paint a picture that says "Christians don't hate." If you want to say that Christianity should never be perverted into hatred for people that's fine, as long as you also honestly admit that it FREQUENTLY IS, and that we who believe those are the wrong values must take a stand together to vocally oppose such hatred.

The biggest faces the rest of the country sees associated with "Christianity" are the Jerry Fallwells, the Pat Robertsons, the Roy Moores, the Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, etc. etc. etc. These are the faces of hatred in the name of so-called Christian values. They are in fact unspeakably anti-Christ, but nevertheless they represent what is frequently called the "Christian Church" today.

We need to be honest about this, and honest about the massive amount of pain and suffering that has been caused by these people doing evil things in the name of faith. Simply quipping that someone else is just "blinded by" their own hatred is not exactly how I imagine Jesus responding to someone else's pain or anger at injustices done in his name.

[stopthegop]

120. it appears we need to define 'hate'

I don't consider it 'hate' to say: "behavior XX is wrong, is sin, and is unacceptable" (unacceptable doesn't mean people should be beaten up for it) or to say "Christ is the only way to salvation"

do you?

[elfwitch]

124. "Christ is the only way to salvation"

Many people have lost their lives because of that statement.

[theboss]

165. I think He is

And I don't want to kill anyone.

[elfwitch]

193. And you are more than welcome to think that...

A large number of people in the world do. But those of us who don't really don't want to hear about it when you find out we don't believe that way. At this point having somebody "witness" to me just makes me surly. Does the person witnessing to me actually believe I've never heard of Jesus? We live in this so-called Christian Nation. Do they really think I've never heard about it before?

If he's you Savior, great for you. I really don't want to hear about it. One's religious beliefs should be much like their sexual preference, nobody's business except the people they are having it with.

Alas, because the President, all of his lackeys, the RW Pundits, and so forth keep making it an issue, we have to talk about it. If they'd just shut the F up about it and let people lead their own lives, the world might be a better place. If it really is the way, the true path, the once religion, people will either find it or not. If they don't then badgering them about it is only going to do more harm than good.

[Selwynn]

137. First it depends on the behavior. Second --

It's not about saying "behavior x is wrong, is sin, and is unacceptable."

It's more like this, "these people who do x are sick disgusting evil less than people, they repulse me and disgust God. In fact the tragedy of 9/11 was because of God's hatred for the ACLU, homosexuals, and communists. Hurricane Andrew in Florida happened because of God's wrath against faggots. People who do things that I feel are wrong, a sin, or unacceptable should be harassed, persectured, denied rights, and demeaned."

That's the difference between believing sincerely that x behavior is wrong, and out of a heart of love not wanting to see someone else experience pain by choosing that wrong behavior, and actually having a attutide of hatred and prejudice towards the person. See in the former, love has to leave room for respect of the individual and ultimately, that individual's right to make his or her own decisions. The latter, denies that right and attempts to coerce, force or persecute people who have different values than I have.

You however, seemed to be implying that Christians "as a group" NEVER do the latter. That is just a lie. Many, many, many of the most public "amabassadors" of Christianity in this nation directly hate, promote hate, and are fundamentally anti-christian. And its embarassing to me that I have to agrue with so many so-called christians who are absolutly unwilling to acknoweldge any problems or wrong doing on the part of christianity today. And they they wonder why they have such a hard time reaching some people.

So let me turn it around to you:

I don't think that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or the Christian Colition are simply saying, "it is my believe that x is wrong, is sin, and is not acceptable." I think (well actually I know, becuase I have direct quotes)they are saying and doing things much more like the second example I gave.

do you?

[stopthegop]

144. I have not seen

them saying people "should be harassed, persectured, denied rights, and demeaned"...if they or anyone says that, it's un-Christian and wrong...I'm sure there are people that say such things (Fred Phelps for instance) but they are hardly significant in comparison to Christians in America

I don't think it's hate or wrong to choose not to associate with someone with a different world view (it may be stupid, and hurt the one making the choice)...or to say.."You know...this is wrong, it hurts someone, and we should make it illegal" (abortion maybe)...it might be inaccurate, but in itself it's not 'hate'...the word 'hate' has been devalued to mean 'said or did something I don't like, or that hurt my feelings'..sorta like the word 'racist'

[Selwynn]

174. That's totally untrue.

"I have not seen them saying people "should be harassed, persecuted, denied rights, and demeaned"

Then you're not looking very hard.

".the word 'hate' has been devalued to mean 'said or did something I don't like, or that hurt my feelings'..sorta like the word 'racist'"

No, I don't think it has been.

"I don't think it's hate or wrong to choose not to associate with someone with a different world view (it may be stupid, and hurt the one making the choice)...or to say.."You know...this is wrong, it hurts someone, and we should make it illegal" (abortion maybe)...it might be inaccurate, but in itself it's not 'hate'"

I don't think that is "hate" either. Having a personal opinion about someone's choices is one thing. You have a right to your opinion, but they have a right to theirs as well. Persecuting them, or fostering devaluing attitudes against them for those choices that differ from yours is something else. And that happens all the time, in various forms.

[theboss]

166. We need a Godwin's Law on this site regarding Falwell

I'm tired of having his name lobbed in like a hand grenade every time the topic of Christianity comes up. I can't defend him, but I also know he doesn't speak for most Christians.

Too many people on this site think he is the American Pope or something and anyone who attends church more than once a year waits for his directive.

[Selwynn]

172. No, I'm afraid I don't think so

The problem is that most non-Christians THINK he speaks for all Christians. The political "Christian-right" is all that most people know about "Christians."

And I guess there are two ways you can handle it. One is to just say "those people are "real" Christians" which basically goes over like a dead ferret. Refusing to take responsibility for the evil things done in the name of Christianity is wrong. Maybe those responsible for the Inquisition weren't "true" Christians, but at they were doing what they were doing in that name, I still take responsibility for it and admit to its tragedy.

"Too many people on this site think he is the American Pope or something and anyone who attends church more than once a year waits for his directive."

It's not too many people on this site, its too many people all over America. That's the problem. The problem is that people like this guy are going around painting poisonous pictures of Christianity. And Christians need to take a stand and boldly publicly denounce that kind of hatred.

The kind of Christianity many know has these kind of guys as its ambassador. THEY are the people usually in the news, they are the people totally invested in a political agenda. They are the people who make the statements, write the books, print the articles and spew lots of hatred in the name of Christian faith.

I bring him and others like him up, because its what many people see, and all they see.

[theboss]

177. He's an idiot.

There I'm done.

I think your argument that I am somehow responsible for Falwell is the same as the Right-Wingers who demand that every Muslim stand up and condemn every act of terror by Islamic Terrorists.

Actually, it's more disingenuous because Falwell is only speaking (like an idiot as I pointed out earlier, but still).

And who are these people that think Falwell speaks for Christians?

[Selwynn]

180. We're not responsible for him - we're responsible to stand against him

And I run into people who think the radical-right people like Falwell is synonymous with Christianity every single day. In fact deprogramming that misconception takes more of my time than anything else.

[theboss]

185. Who are these morons you talk to?

I am at fault for their tremendous misconception?

Again, this is like Muslims feeling the needs to appease the most radical right-wingers who think every Muslim is a suicide bomber.

[Selwynn]

203. You have an interesting attitude as a christian...

You seem so preoccupied with whether or not its "your" fault that there is a tremendous misconception in some people, and you're not even paying attention to the fact that part of Christian living should be the desire to share good news of hope and joy with people who need it. (and I should add, want it/are open to it - I do not believe in shoving a religious message down someone else throat).

Just calling people "morons" doesn't seem to have anything to do with having a desire to reach out in love and hope to people who need it; I also have trouble imagining that it would be the attitude that Jesus would display.

Jesus, I think would be filled with compassion for people who are hurting, and would through the witness and words of love and grace, help other people understand that "you may have heard that it was said, x... but I say to you, this instead."

I think that part of our Christian experience is supposed to be about a message of good news. If someone fundamentally misunderstands the nature of tha good news, and thinks its bad news, I don't want to call them "morons" I want to help them that it isn't bad news, whether they choose to embrace the message or not. And if there are people out there who are spreading "bad news" in the name of the gospel, I want to comfort people who have been confused or abused by that message, and help them understand that the bad news message is not synonymous with all Christians.

And something else: I'm not evangelical, meaning that I don't go around trying to push an agenda with other people. However, if the subject comes up, or if there is someone in my life who express to me their openness to and interest in my own spiritual story, then I gladly share with them earnestly. What they choose for themselves, is a choice to be made by them and not me. I don't want to every force or coerce someone into any kind of faith.

What I've found when I do that is that only people in "the Church" think that guys like Falwell or the 700 club don't represent "Christianity" to a lot of people in the country. When I hit the streets and talk to my neighbors, and my coworkers and my friends - I find out that the message of the fanatical fundamentalist religious right is out there about ten times as much as any other message.

[theboss]

210. I partially agree

But my experience is that the people who think Falwell speaks for all Christians are being intentionally obtuse.

[Selwynn]

218. Well, that's not been my experience at all.

Maybe compassion means giving them the benefit of the doubt, and not calling them morons.... ?

[Selwynn]

108. There is no such thing as "christians as a group"

There are only individuals professing to be "christian"

And a LOT of the people professing to be "christian" hate. Trying to deny that fact is going to be faily insulting to the myriad of people here who have been victims of indviduals' hate done in the name of their "christian" faith.

[stopthegop]

109. I didn't deny individuals hate..whatever that means...

any more than I'd say 'individuals' here 'hate'...if there are 'a LOT' of Christians who hate, the definition you're using for hate must be pretty broad...

[theboss]

78. Actually it was Democrats that fought segregation

If you really want to split hairs. So, according to that logic, you should never support a Deomcratic business.

And "The Passion" is a Catholic movie more than anything else.

As for converting Jews, we're a faith that believes in preaching and converting. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling someone about Jesus. That doesn't mean that we should start a new Inquisition, but I think you are being overly sensitive.

[outinforce]

141. Didn't Democrats

filibuster against passage in the US Senate of the 1964 Civil Rights Act???

Wasn't it that rabid GOP guy -- Sen. Everette Dirksen -- who invested his time and energy to break the filibuster and get the Bill to President Johnson's desk -- over the strenuous objections of many Democrats?

[theboss]

164. I've voted for a man who set a time record filibustering that bill

He's praised here daily.

Robert Byrd.

[outinforce]

181. Byrd May Have Voted For the Bill

but he did not set a record.

That "honor" belongs to Strom Thurmond (A Dixie Democrat -- a Dixicrat -- at the time):

"South Carolina's legendary Republican Senator Strom Thurmond holds a dubious distinction in the U.S. Senate: He once spoke for 24 hours and 18 minutes - the longest filibuster on record - in order to oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1957 (extending the vote to disenfranchised minorities)."

http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=8273

And are you sure that Robert Byrd voted FOR the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

This suggests otherwise:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-23-byrd_x.htm

"He says it was his admiration for those mentors that led him to oppose the 1964 Civil Rights Act, one of the few votes among more than 16,000 cast in Congress that he regrets"

[theboss]

189. No, Byrd was against the bill

He was a true Southern Democrat in the old days.

PS: When you filibuster a bill, you are trying to kill it.

[theboss]

45. Except this guy

http://www.asetbooks.com/Us/Mall/Printer.html

And these guys:

http://www.blackretailersusa.com/

And them:

http://www.blacksoftware.com/services.html

and:

http://www.blackseek.com/

and

http://www.findablackownedbusiness.com/

[elfwitch]

37. You are correct to a point...

I have never seen an advertisement in a phone book or anywhere else where a business made a point of being "black owned".

I've never seen an ad on TV that had a tag line at the bottom of the screen saying "Black owned since 19??".

Blacks, Jews, Asians, women, gays, and so on don't use that as a ply to get people to come to their store. You don't see ads in the phone book for whatever service that have the pink triangle or the multi-colored flag on them. You don't see businesses that have the Star of David in the ad to let people know that this accounting firm is owned by a Jew.

Only Christians are belligerent enough to shove that kind of non-pertinent information in to the faces of people who, quite frankly, are just looking for a tire dealership, a florist, a dentist, a bakery.... and so on.

Don't play the race card like that. Everyone here knows that the Fundie Xtians are out of control.

[stopthegop]

38. out of who's control?

who has the right to control them?

[elfwitch]

44. they seem to think they have the right to control everybody else

Let's see, hmmm, a list of ways that Fundies have insinuated themselves on to everybody else's life:

abortion
gay marriage
liquor laws (when and where it can or cannot be sold)
zoning laws
MPAA
record rating system
television rating system
video game rating system
the comic book code
banning of books in public libraries
swapping out real science books for "Creating Science" books in public schools

The list goes on and on...

If they don't want to drink, read a book, watch something on TV, have an abortion, marry someone of the same gender, you get the point, then they SHOULDN'T. But trying to amend the Constitution or creating laws that dictate THEIR version of morality is them trying to tell me how to live.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elfwitch]

55. well...

To use a nice childish response, They hated me and my kind first.

But beyond that, Evangelicals have taken over the government. they have started remolding the country in to their own narrow view of right and wrong.

If I choose not to spend my money in their establishments, that is as much of a choice as they make when they make platforms of their faith to convert all Jews.

I choose to spend my money elsewhere. They choose to try to convert my people. I think my way is much more fair.

[outinforce]

112. "Zoning Laws"???

Zoning Laws as a way in which fundamentalist Christians have insinuated themselves into everyone else' life????

That's a new one for me.

If that is so, Houston, Texas is without doubt the most non-fundamentalist city I have ever visited. I think there are no zoning laws there at all. At least it seems that way.

[elfwitch]

129. Oh must I explain everything...

Example: In Dallas, many religious groups banded together to create zoning laws that prohibit certain types of businesses. Adult clubs, adult bookstores, adult gift shops, liquor stores, and so forth have been nearly zoned out of some cities.

If you live in a large city it is not a problem. You go to another part of the city to get what you need. If you live in a smaller city, then you run in to trouble.

[Baltimoreboy]

145. Horrors

How dare those fundamentalists oppose porn and adult businesses!

Perhaps you need to better understand those you can't stand. There is a basic MORAL view many take and that view opposes prostitution and porn stores in their neighborhoods.

[outinforce]

155. Adult Businesses, Zoning Laws, and Morality

You don't need to have a moral objection to porn or "adult" businesses to object to them being in your neighborhood.

Such businesses, last time I checked, tend to drive down property values in most places.

The reason for the zoning laws restricting such places in the city I leve (Washington, DC) have much much more to do with economics. "Morality" has little to do with it.

That elementary fact, I think, would be evident to just about anyone.

I'm not sure why it escaped your notice.

[theboss]

190. Non-Christians support those zoning laws too

For the simple fact that nobody in their right mind wants to live next to a strip club or adult bookstore.

[elfwitch]

199. And yet my city

has grocery stores that don't carry alcohol. Until I moved to Dallas I didn't even know that was possible. All grocery stores in San Antonio, where I am from, sell beer and wine.

(sarcasm on)Because you can see how selling beer and wine at a grocery store in your neighborhood will drop property values?(sarcasm off)

What I have noticed, in Dallas, is the areas that do sell liquor are economically depressed. Cause or effect? Who knows? But I never saw that problem in the city I am FROM.

[theboss]

201. Trying buying beer or wine in a grocery store in PA

It's impossible.

That's not a zoning law necessarily. It's probably the remnants of a city blue law. Or the state just wants a monopoly on selling booze.

[elfwitch]

204. at some point then somebody

decided that people shouldn't be allowed to buy beer and wine. I'd be willing to bet if you trace it back far enough, you'll find some moral crusader rallying against the evils of drink.

[theboss]

208. Actually, in PA, it's all about government profits and control

They want to keep liquor in state-owned stores and beer in distributors and bars.

Laws controlling the sale of liquor are much more complex than you are allowing here. DC (as Democratic and liberal as a city can be) is always discussing how to control sales of liquor in corner grocery stores because the neighbors hate the crowds that gather near them. DC also just passed an ordinance prohibiting new liquor licenses in the Adams Morgan section of the city due to noise complaints by residents.

[elfwitch]

211. Well then you live in a more enlightened part of the country than I do.

Because down here in Bush country, it's the Baptists that f**k up the fun for everybody else.

[theboss]

214. Then, um, move

It's too hot there anyway.

(I have to say I find it weird that someone moves to Dallas and then complains that Southern Baptists run the show. Is your next move to Salt Lake City?)

[elfwitch]

275. First of all...

screw you on the "Is your next move to Salt Lake City?" comment. I'm living in Dallas only as long as it takes mu husband to finish school, if you must know.

Second of all, I'd be more than happy to leave this whole f-ing country. I am about as sick of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists as one can get. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on being one, but it seems from your comments thus far that you are either sympathetic to their cause or completely oblivious to their influence on everyday life in the United States.

In any case, if you are so blind as to see what they have done and are continuing to do to the United States, then it won't be long until you do. Ever read "The Handmaid's Tale" or "Brave New World"? Those realities are coming soon to a home near you if the religious psychos aren't stopped or sent back to obscurity where they belong.

[Baltimoreboy]

221. You have no inherent right to that "fun"

It's a democracy. I agree with the other poster, you can always move if you don't like it there.

[elfwitch]

276. And to you I say

see post #275

[JVS]

235. Pennsylvania's laws are great

[QC]

257. When I lived in PA, I was told

that the peculiar liquor laws had to do with mob control of the beer and liquor distributors. Is this true?

[theboss]

266. I think it may have been to break mob control

The liquor stores are all state-owned so I don't see how the mob could control that. I'm not sure how distributorhsips work. But PA has such a small organized crime presence these days, I can't imagine LCN is still an issue.

[theboss]

39. What city do you live in?

In DC, you see advertisements for "Black-owned." You also see rainbow flags in the windows of gay-friendly/gay-owned businesses. You see signs written in various Asian languages. I've been in Jewish-owned businesses that are obvious as to the faith of the owner too.

[elfwitch]

48. Dallas Texas

Home of Robert Tilton and Dick Cheney.

People in this part of the country would be afraid to advertise that they are anything but Jesus lovin Christians.

[theboss]

51. See post #45

n/t

[outinforce]

98. And You NEVER see

signs that say "Se Habla Espanol" or "Hablamos Espanol"???

YOu ONLY see signs that distiguish Christian-owned businesses?

[elfwitch]

113. touched a nerve I did...

The question wasn't about Mexican businesses or black businesses, or any other sub-set group's businesses. The question was about Christian businesses. It was inspired by something somebody said in another thread.

If you want to start a thread about Mexican, Black, Jewish, Asian, Muslim, whatever businesses, be my guest.

But the poll results do seem to indicate that this particular type of advertisement does bother people.

[outinforce]

128. Touched? A Nerve?

I do admit that I sometimes do have "some nerve".

But I don't think you have come close to touching it.

"The question wasn't about Mexican businesses or black businesses, or any other sub-set group's businesses. The question was about Christian businesses."

That's true.

But you did, as I recollect, make the following statement in this thread:

"I've never seen an ad on TV that had a tag line at the bottom of the screen saying "Black owned since 19??".

Blacks, Jews, Asians, women, gays, and so on don't use that as a ply to get people to come to their store. You don't see ads in the phone book for whatever service that have the pink triangle or the multi-colored flag on them. You don't see businesses that have the Star of David in the ad to let people know that this accounting firm is owned by a Jew."

When I saw that you lived in Dallas, I could not believe that you had never seen any "signs" that serve to transmit the nature of the ownership of certain businesses.

I have not been to Dallas for a long time, and so I take you word for it that there are no businesses there with rainbow flags (even though, I think, Dalls has a vibrant gay community).

But I do refuse to believe that Dallas has no firms advertising themselves as being owned by Hispanic folks.

YOU were the one who said that Blacks, etc. "don't use that as a ploy".

I called you on it.

Seems I touched a nerve.

No?

[elfwitch]

142. Not in the slightest...

I have not seen any other religious group advertise so wantonly their faith in regard to a business that has nothing to do with their faith. If you are Black, Gay, Chinese, Canadian, etc. you cannot change what you are or convince anybody who is not Black, Gay, Chinese, Canadian, etc. to be what you are.

If you are a Christian, however, you not only have the opportunity to change what someone is, but some of them see it as their obligations to convince you to see it their way.

If I am gay and I am flying the gay pride flag, I am not going to try to convince my customers to be gay.

If I am Christan and and I am displaying the Jesus Fish, I am may very well try to convince my customers to be Christan.

It's like the old joke, What is the difference between being Black and being Gay? You don't have to tell your parents you are Black.

[outinforce]

149. Those Canadians.......

"If you are Black, Gay, Chinese, Canadian, etc. you cannot change what you are or convince anybody who is not Black, Gay, Chinese, Canadian, etc. to be what you are."

If you mean "ethnically Chinese", I take you point regarding Chinese.

But I had thought all along that it was possible to be convinced to become Canadian, and that I could, if I ever wished (and if the Canadians would have me) become Canadian.

Please tell me that I am not mistaken.

I had hoped, you see, on emigrating to Toronto in the event that * is re-elected later this year. Or I at least had that as a hoped-for possibility (emigrating to Toronto, I mean -- not *'s re-election).

Your post seems to indicate that being Canadian is like being gay -- one either is or is not gay, and can never change either from gay to non-gay or from non-gay to gay.

I am right now non-Canadian.

Does that mean that I can never become Canadian???

[elfwitch]

154. I was riffing to make a point....

And when you think about nationality, no matter where you go, no matter what color your skin is, you will always be an American, no matter what you passport says.

The rest of the world can spot an American at 50 paces. So in a way, you cannot really change the fact of your Canadian-ship.

But my point was that there are some things you are because you were born that way and there are come things you are because you choose to be that way.

[outinforce]

157. I See

and one can choose to hate and villify people because of their beliefs.

Or one can choose not to do that.

I try not to do that.

Even when it comes to people whose beliefs I find odd or strange.

[elfwitch]

162. And that is your choice...

But when you have been on the receiving end of some of the Tough Christian love that has been floating around the country lately, you have a really hard time staying objective. If you have been the victim of a hate crime, it is not easy to regain trust in those groups of people that committed it against you.

[outinforce]

173. I Grew Up as a Gay Boy

in Nebraska. In the 1950's and 1960's (I graduated from HS in 1968).

I know what hatred is.

I also know that, in my life anyway, letting go of hatred that I feel towards those who have hated me has helped me grow -- a lot.

[elfwitch]

197. I'm not ready to let it go...

There is a Jewish Holiday called Yom Hashoa. It is Holocaust Remembrance day. We are all taught one phrase in regard to that horrible blotch on human history, "Never Forget!"

If you let memories fade, if you let all of the sting go away, you leave yourself open to the same hurt. It is sad but true, in this world you have to be on your guard at all times. My distaste for what the Fundies have done and continue to do keeps me sharp and on the lookout. I will not allow them or anybody else to do to my little Jewish family what was done to so many others throughout our 6000 year history.

[FlaGranny]

182. I feel for you elfwitch,

you are being double teamed. I've been on the receiving end of religious zealots in the past, so I understand what you are saying. Now I just keep my mouth shut. You can't win. They're programmed.

[outinforce]

183. I Really Do Hope

that your post was not meant to suggest that I am any of the following:

1. a religious zealot

2. a person who "double teams"

3. or a person who is "programmed".

[FlaGranny]

267. Try not to

take things personally. I don't believe elfwitch was calling you those things. I think she was speaking about her experiences. I have had similar experiences with "zealots," to the point of being told my little 2-year-old child would go to hell if I didn't have her baptised. We non-religious folks tend to have some real interesting experiences if we dare to admit to being non-religious.

She WAS being double-teamed. It was two against one.

I'm sorry, if you took it that I was calling you a zealot. I was communicating the fact that I had had experiences with zealots and the programmed, just as she had. And, if you've ever had an experience with someone trying to convert you, you know they are very obviously programmed.

I'm sorry if you took offense. Everyone seems to be taking every thing I say wrong lately. I must need to improve my communication skills - it's making me afraid to even post.

[outinforce]

268. Thanks.

I am equally sorry that I was so sensitive.

Your communication skills, in my view, are fine.

Communication is a two-way street. It involves not only the message that is sent, but also the message that is received.

One always hopes that hte message s/he sends is the message that is received.

But sometimes it is not. And when that happens, it is not always the fault of the person who sent the message.

Sometimes it is the "fault" (if that is the right word) of the person who received the message.

I "received" the message in your post (post #182) as being directed my way. It is clear to me that you did not intend to direct them to me, or that if you did, you did not intend them in the way I interpreted them.

I hope this is all clear. It was good of you to clarify what you meant, and to do so in a civil manner.

I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

[FlaGranny]

269. And thank you, too.

I never, ever intend to be insensitive, never disparage the beliefs of anyone. My parents raised me to be a good "liberal."

[theboss]

212. "I am not going to try to convince my customers to be gay."

You need to spend more time in Dupont Circle then. :-)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

200. Hey elf, take a look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1634543#1635715

Ain't that a RIOT?

[elfwitch]

202. A RIOT?

I suggested it. Somebody was bustin my balls about what if this thread has said a black owned business and whatnot. I told them they were more than welcome to start a thread just like that if they wished.

JCCyC, love ya man!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

207. For some reason I didn't find the thread itself that outrageous...

...now, the response to my post there... did you see it? :wow:

[elfwitch]

209. You rock, yay you!

Always happy to see you friend.

[Servo300]

34. Yes.

I support freedom of religion.

[No2W2004]

36. A sign to say you're closed

for religious reasons is fine in my opinion.

But being overtly religious in a place of business not related to religion is kind of wierd.

True story: I had a business meeting at a local metal stamping plant. It is a business that employs around 100 or so. The company president comes out and brings me in his office. There were 4 paintings of Jebus' mom and various statues of her & various saints placed around his office. It was very disconcerting sitting there talking about metal specs while mary is staring at me from all directions. The rest of the plant was "jebus free", and I came away impressed with the way the business operated. Would I do business with them? As long as I don't have to deal with anything religious stamped on parts, or religious crap stuck in boxes, then fine.

It was just a strange experiance.

[Arianrhod]

41. I often have.

However, I feel that, in general (a logical fallacy, I know), most people who need to advertise that way aren't really Christians at all. Rather, they're just trying to cash in on the current fad that Christianity has become. I should be able to tell what they are by the way they treat me, the way they do business--not by their loud, in-your-face proclamations. Everyone no doubt has many stories of such things as discourteous drivers with fish stickers plastered on their car, etc etc. Walk the walk or shut up, is my motto. I'm not interested in anyone's talk.

That being said, I won't avoid doing business with someone simply because s/he is a Christian. And if they really are walking the walk, I don't mind listening to what they have to say, either.

[Bridget Burke]

46. It depends. If they're aggressive about it, probably not.

But if they have a "fish" symbol, a picture of the Virgin of Guadalupe or one of the saints on the premises--that would not turn me against them. Same applies to Buddhist shrines & pictures of Krishna.

I would judge them by their actions.

[0007]

50. I like the ads that sez,

"Wanted a good Christian to do light housekeeping"

[BringEmOn]

52. My experiences with faux Christian businesses

Mostly related to automobile repair or tires...they're crooks. Some are flat out crooked. Others gain your trust, then screw you later. I don't know of an honest one who advertises their faux Christianity.

[camero]

54. If they have to advertise it

It's a good bet that they're not really Christian and are just using it to bring customers in. As a front mostly. Kind of like alot of church goers who Jesus said appeared outwardly beautiful but inside are ravenous wolves.

I avoid them like the plague.

[ProfessorGAC]

58. They Shouldn't Advertise In Any Form

They shouldn't be selling anything.

It was Jesus, IIRC, who admonished people about advertising their faith to achieve some other end.

It was Jesus who said to give up worldly posssessions.

It was Jesus who said that if a poor man asked for your coat, you should give him your cloak as well.

Basing business on Christianity is anathemic. People should be doing no more than selling their wares at cost and making no profit, if they want to bring Jesus into it. Then, they'd actually be consistent.

If they're capitalists first, and Christians second, then they can't advertise. If they're Christians first and capitalists second, they can't make a profit and still be Christians first.

I think i got 'em!
The Professor

[elfwitch]

60. Big smoochies for you ProfessorGAC

That was lucid and topical. Bravo!

[stopthegop]

61. no you don't have them...

Christ was (by tradition) a carpenter...how'd he pay for food the first 30 years of His life?...maybe by making a profit? are you familiar with the parable of the talents?

[camero]

63. Noone can have two masters

You're either a capitalist or a Christian. One of the two. You can't be both. You can either serve God or Mammon.

The talents apply to a person's faith and not money.

[stopthegop]

64. disagree...

you can be a capitalist without loving money..it's just a tool...a counting device..it depends on how you see it (money, stuff) and how you use it..you can easily be both...

[camero]

65. Capitalism depends on exploitation

You cannot exploit another person and say you love god. It's antithetical.

Congrats on drinking the Kool-Aid.

[stopthegop]

71. congrats on being misled

capitalism doesn't depend on exploitation...you're the one guzzling Kool-aid...if it's a voluntary exchange, where's the exploitation? ..if the car isn't worth $4000 to you don't buy it...if you think you can do better working for A than B..go work for A...

besides which...this is a topic for another thread..maybe even another forum...have a good day

[camero]

72. Yes it does

At it core it relies on a certain percentage of people NOT recieving the fruits of the earth. The very opposite of Christianity.

[RichardRay]

104. The old Labor Theory of Value, huh?

You want to try to make that work in practice? I've got the rap down, but I've never seen an economy based on it, on neither have you.

[outinforce]

84. You've Mastered Herr Marx

and his out-dated notions from the mid-19th century quite well.

Your statement is, of course, entirely correct.

You cannot, in fact, exploit another person and say you love either God or the other person -- two things commanded by Jesus, if I recall correctly.

And, while it is certainly true that some employers exploit some employees, it is, in my view, sheer ideological blindness to suggest that that is true of all employment relationships.

[camero]

206. I've also mastered the Kibbutz

which depends on sharing the resources

[camero]

68. Food for thought

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a RICH man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:24)

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a RICH man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 19:23)

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

"He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. (Matt. 13:18-22)

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are." (1 Cor. 1:26-28)

"Do not RICH men OPPRESS you, and draw you before the judgment seats?" (James 2:6)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

123. after dining on thought

Matt 19:23-24 are about the love of money...

Matt 13:18-22 speak of deceitfulness of riches...not riches themselves...speaking of riches that draw attention from the 'real' world Christ is speaking of

1Cor 01:26-28 marking that the worldly confounds the spiritual world...meaning that things of the world, being wrapped up in them, confounds our spiritual being

James 2:6 is taken out of context...with James 2:5 talking about those who are rich in the world or those who are taken with the world

Christ does not condemn making a living...just lusting after money and the things of the world...it is drawing worship from the Lord.

theProdigal

[camero]

205. Nice job

twisting the meaning of the Bible. good for you

[ProdigalJunkMail]

222. me? that's good

you pull something out of context and then quite clearly don't take the time to study the sections you quote and you say that I am twisting? Have you ever read a commentary on the bible? Have you ever read other translations? And why would your translation be any more correct than mine? Do you have some special connection to the Almighty and His thought process that the rest of us are missing out on? And just exactly how is my post twisting the words of Christ when you are the one who takes them out of context and bandies them about solely to beat someone over the head with them? You know, a lot of people here (including me and I would expect that you would too) get pretty upset when OTHER sections of the bible are used in this manner...so why is it ok this time?

Yes, Christ did have many discussion where the rich were not looked on with favor. Much of his message was directed at uplifting the poor and downtrodden...he came to deliver 'the Good News'. Many of the rich of that time (and of this time, to be sure) were indeed evil...but David was rich and he was 'a man after God's own heart'. Solomon was rich...but he was the wisest man who ever lived or would live according to the bible...and according to scripture God Himself added all these things unto Solomon because of his fervent desire to lead the people of Israel. Joseph became rich (after being sold into slavery). Heck, lots of people in the bible that are held up as examples to us were rich. Not once in the bible does Christ (nor is it said in the Old Testament) say that money or the possession of it is bad. The reason? Because money, in and of itself, is not evil. Can you lose yourself in pursuit of it? Yes indeed...and many do. That is why it is said that you cannot server two Masters. Christ said you would LOVE one and despise the other...do you think he was talking about slavery? Christians are called 'bondslaves of Christ'...do you really think that being a Christian makes you a slave? Christ also directed much of his message to the poor partly (and only partly) as a message that ALL men, regardless of station in life had an opportunity to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I'm sorry camero...normally I don't disagree with you too much...but saying that I am twisting the scripture to suit my needs is just too much.

Forgive me a rant...
theProdigal

[camero]

224. I didn't take them out of context

I stated them exactly as they are. No need for interpretation when they are right there in black and white. He used very hard language to describe the rich.

here's some more for you:

"... Whosoever will come after me, LET HIM DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross, and FOLLOW ME.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR MY SAKE AND THE GOSPEL'S, THE SAME SHALL SAVE IT.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

"Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mark 8:34-37)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

226. fine...if you say so...let's look and see

Matt 19...the story of the young rich man. He comes to Christ and says, "hey, bud, i want to follow you." Christ essentially tells him that that is groovy...but there's a catch: Give away all that you own in order to do it. The young rich man then leaves in sadness because his love of money is more powerful than his desire to follow Christ. Christ then gives you your quotes...but he goes on to say that those who have left behind family and other possessions shall essentially recieve 100 times as much. Please tell me then that this means that we are to have no familial relations because they TOO are evil.

Matt 13...it even says 'the deceitfulness of riches' not anything about rich persons. The love of money is that which pulls worship from the Lord and thus it is deemed deceitful and indeed, idol worship.

1Cor 1 ...riches and rich persons are not mentioned once here in your quotes but Paul is writing to those who were called from many 'lowly' walks of life to service of Christ. Earlier in verse 20, the wise philospher and scholar are made low by the things of the earth...I guess we are to go around uneducated as well because the wise are made fools.

James 2...this section is really about favoritism among believers. Once again, all in the kingdom are equal. Showing favor to the rich mand over the poor man by offering the finer place at the table is what is being disparraged here. And if you will read verse five, it clearly states 'those who are poor in the eyes of world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom'. THEN he talk of those who are rich...

So, not out of context? I think some might disagree.

theProdigal

[camero]

227. Again in your own words and not the books

sheesh. This proves that all of our resources should be shared. I'm not going to argue about it any more. Oh and by the way Jesus told that man to give EVERYTHING he had to the poor. Everything.



And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

"And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

"Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

"And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

"Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." (Acts 4:32-37)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

230. but they must have gotten rich before

and that made them evil, right? You cannot share wealth without the acquisition of it. Someone has to make it and YES, he/she should share it. But is that person evil? If no one labors to earn...then who will eat?

theProdigal

[camero]

233. If he doesn't share it equally

with the ones who labor with him he is seen as a thief. No two ways about it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

237. then I suggest

you get off of your chair, go sell your computer (or your access to one) find someone who is poor (think 3rd world poor) and labor with them until you have equal.

Did you eat today? I think you probably did unless you are fasting for some reason. If you wish to continue to be literal...let's take where it is really literal. Follow those teachings to which you ascribe, my friend. Then, write me a letter on waste paper, put it in a discarded bottle, throw it in the sea and hope it reaches me. Don't you DARE spend anything to continue this conversation or your socialist/communis ideals will be shown wanting as YOU have something SOMEONE else does not.

You continue to miss the point...
theProdigal

[camero]

239. You miss the point

I myself don't own anything. My family lets me use this computer.

How nice that you know so much about my life.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

241. then your family is your riches

and you should drop them as well...Christ commands it you know.

theProdigal

[camero]

243. Nice that you know so much about me.

You don't know the beginning.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

245. nor do I need to know the beginning

I can feel sympathy for you without your life's history, but you obviously have no symptathy for those who see the world differently than you. I am sorry your life has been hard. But you know what...so has mine...so has most of the lives of people who are posting on this board and probably about 6 billion other people. Spare me the martyr complex. If you wish to be literal about the words Christ spoke by taking them out of context and speaking of what you know not then expect someone to call you on your BS. There are millions of Christians out there (and Muslim and Jews and Buddhists and and and) who have had hard lives and don't need the likes of you telling them that they are forbidden from having anything just because you don't and you think you have found a way through scripture to prove your point. Care to define rich for me? How about having a billion dollars? A million? A thousand? How about enough food to eat and feed your family with and a roof over your head? How about rich in family? Rich in love? Rich in the ways of the world? RICH RICH RICH. Riches can be had in many many many ways...not just money

theProdigal

[camero]

248. Yes they can

But not in material ways because they are the ways of the world and Christ said to love not the world.

Those who are rich are rich because they have taken from the poor.

You're the one spouting BS.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

250. so, you think the ways of the world

is all about money? hmmmm good keep thinking that

[camero]

251. You are not good at putting words in my mouth n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

253. then perhaps you should

really go and do something else. Anything...the way of the world is indeed a broad phrase. And we are not to put our faith in the world nor are we to love it. I do not put faith in the money I have earned and saved...nor do I love it. I do it as a provision for my family and so that I may share it with others. But I am rich. And I am not evil.

theProdigal

[camero]

256. ok

And you refuse to say how much you share and how you got your wealth. Interesting and very telling.

Be careful. Wealth is like a drug. You get addicted and refuse to give it up when you have to.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

258. never refused to say and will gladly

I have inherited some of it...my great grandfather was a teacher and a lawyer and spent his life defending people from the power of the state and educating them. He cared very little for possessions so he spent little and saved much. He left me over $1million.

I have worked for the better part of my life. Beginning at 16 I began laying brick, putting up foundations, and framing. I worked through school and became a teacher myself. After teaching a few years, I went into technology fields and now teach and manage there. I also do freelance writing for technical journals. Last year I earned over $200,000. I put away $35,000 for my family...I gave over $60,000 to my church and various charities. I gave no money to political parties or political groups. My amassed fortune would be in excess of $2million. So by some standards I am filthy rich...but I have oppressed no one...and have lifted up many. My wealth to me is but a vehicle for my family...and if they fall in love with it...well, I would give it all away without a second's hesitation. I know the danger of love for things and with the exception of my family have gladly left it behind.

theProdigal

[camero]

225. It's in Matthew too

"Lay NOT up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal;

"But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal ..." (Matt. 6:19-20)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

229. once again...

for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Where is your heart? You know what, I am in violation of the command of the lord because right now my little one year old girl is my treasure. She is MY idol...I nearly worship the ground she walks on. And you know what else...one day she will die and I pray that it happens not while I am alive because it would surely kill me. Place not your faith in things of this world...for the earth passes away but Christ is eternal...lay your faith on Him and build your treasures in heaven...but I suppose it is okey dokey to be rich as long as we store the treasure in Heaven National Bank. Do you think the word treasure here means money??? THEN WHY THE HELL IS IT USED IN THE NEXT VERSE WHERE IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE ABOUT MONEY???

Sorry...lost my temper there...

theProdigal

[camero]

232. You cannot be rich and be with god

Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire.

Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord.

Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

"Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. (James 5:1-6)

Doesn't bode well for the rich.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

234. for some rich...i would agree

but really, what of David and Solomon? With the literal interpretation of the bible that so admireably cling to...what of them? Is it not possible to have wealth, know if its true origin, share it widely and be in right standing before God?

Are you rich, camero? Think carefully before you answer...consider your access to a computer...and truly consider your wealth. Have you given all you own? Because that is what you are advocating...

theProdigal

[camero]

236. No I'm not

As a matter of fact I have worked for the rich but I have given everything I've ever owned to others. They're not mine. Another fact, the only reason I'm alive today is from the charity of others. It's not easy giving up material possessions, but it must be done. You can't twist that fact.

Solomon was from the old testament. Not anything that Christ said.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

238. Christ never condemned them though

and he reaffirmed Old Testament scripture...but I guess he was just wrong there...

Continuing to miss the point, camero.

theProdigal

on edit : the fact that you can access a computer and type these thoughts into the aether makes you rich beyond compare to many people in this world...what do you do for them? You haven't yet given it all away...

[camero]

240. you miss the point entirely

That was a blanket condemnation. Nice try. Keep twisting. You'll figure it out eventually.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

242. glad you think so

but you're wrong! See...we can both say it.

theProdigal

[camero]

244. We'll agree to disagree

It's your soul.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

247. and i am VERY comfortable with it

but you obviously are not...you must bring me and all others down to your level before they can be saved. Thanks for judging me and anyone else who had success in this life...

theProdigal

[camero]

249. You sure? n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

252. yes, I am sure

and I do want to thank you for your concern for my soul. Seriously...no joke. You have shown something in this thread that I have not been able to and that does speak loudly of your heart...but I do disagree with you on your interpretation of scripture. Suffice it to say that you and I have read the same words and found different meaning in them.

theProdigal

[camero]

254. I have sympathy for those who suffer

and we know at whose hands they suffer. Yes we do see it differently.

I know where my heart is. Thank you.

[theboss]

70. That's not true at all

You can't serve two masters. If money is your master, you can't serve God. But you can certainly serve God while making money. God never told us to live in poverty.

[camero]

73. Explain this then

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye POOR: for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20)

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God CHOSEN the POOR of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5)

[theboss]

75. All are equal in God's eyes

Jesus always emphasized that "The lowest among you" was just as worthy as God's love - whether they be poor, blind, crippled, a slave, etc. And Jesus always said that wealth was dangerous. It's easy to become a slave to it. Love of money being the root of all evil and all.

But he never told us to live in poverty.

[camero]

79. Post #68

The Bible is clearly against the Rich and for the poor. You can deny that if you like. I'm not.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

125. post #123

[ProdigalJunkMail]

66. nah...you ain't got 'em :-)

Jesus never admonished anyone about making a living...he was a lot more concerned about hypocrisy and making a show of religion to earn the praises of man...you MIGHT have 'em on THAT part. And the time he told the rich man to give up his possessions was more about 'loving' those possessions.

You can absolutely be a business-person and be true to the teachings of Christ...the problem comes when your work and your money become your God...

The whole advertising your religion does make me wary though...I would never make a decision to use or not use some service or purchase goods based on the religion of the purveyor...

theProdigal

[TlalocW]

62. I voted other and here's why

If they're going to advertise themselves as a Christian business then when I walk in the door, I want to immediately hear whoever is behind the cash register or walking the floor scream, "Praise, Jesus! He has seen fit to bless us with another customer!" Then he or she should immediately fall to the floor, twitching in holy agony while speaking in tongues. Same goes for any business with the Star of David on it. I want guys with the curls wanting to clean my chimney, detail my car, etc. if that's how they advertise their business! After all, you know you're dealing with the Amish when you buy their quilts or fudge or whatever!

TlalocW

[outinforce]

76. Do You Really Think All Christians

Behave as you suggest they do?

Most of the Christians I know (including some Amish folk) do not believe that it is a necessary part of their religion to scream their thanks to Jesus for being blessed with the opportunity to serve a customer. Nor do they believe that their God requires writhing on the floor or speaking in tongues.

And it it also my experience that most Jewsish people do not believe in trhe necessity of never having a man put a razor to himself.

It would seem to me that by requiring such exhibitions as the ones you describe in order to valdiate a business's claim to be either Christian or Jewsih, you demonstrate your own misunderstanding of the wide diversity of both belief and practice within both of those religious communities.

[TlalocW]

81. Ah... Forgot to put in the "Sarcasm Tags"

We really need something at DU - a smiley face, an HTML tag, something that when used (and it can only be used for this purpose) denotes sarcasm.

And it would be perfect because I know some of you want to reply back with, "Oh, THAT'S a good idea." But just capitalization denoting emphasis of a particular word isn't always enough to show sarcasm when writing. We need a tag, damn it!

I'm glad I didn't continue on with the line of thinking that would have ended with my quoting Homer Simpson - "I'm an American. I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals flaming."

TlalocW

[outinforce]

92. Thank You For Clearing That Up

It is often difficult to tell -- especially on threads that deal with religion in general and with Christianity more specifically -- whether someone is being sarcastic or whether someone is epxressing a view that they consider valid.

What is sometimes difficult, especially when only seeing the written word and not being able to hear the tone of voice, is that sometimes people will see sarcasm, and take it to be -- dare I say it? -- "gospel".

So even if DU were to develop a little sacrcasm tag, there would probably still be folks who would take it upon themselves to clarify the distortion that a sarcastic comment may contain.

[outinforce]

67. Sure. I Eat

Hebrew National Hot Dogs.

And I am no anti-Christian bigot.

on edit -- The question on this thread strikes me as being not too much different, in essense, from this question:

"Would You Support a Business that Advertises -- Se Hable Espanol"??

[elfwitch]

77. Hebrew national hot dogs....

only tell you that they are kosher. For people that eat kosher only you have to look for the symbol to let you know that prepackaged foods are safe. That is not advertising a religion, that is labeling food for specific dietary restrictions. All food is labeled in some way for people to know what they are eating.

Next thing you'll be saying is that foods stamped with the symbols below are all part of some large conspiracy where food manufacturers have to pay a special "Jew Tax" to stay in business.

[outinforce]

107. Hello????

HEBREW National Hotdogs.

HEBREW National Hotdogs.

Not Smith's National Hotdogs.

Not "Aunt Susie's National Hotdogs (which happen to be kosher)"

But "HEBREW" National Hotdogs.

You say that that is not advertising a religion??

I thought the "Hebrew" referred to the descendents of Jacob.

[elfwitch]

121. Then you are mininformed....

Hebrew is a language. Hebrew is also the decedents of a particular area. All the name does is easily indicates that the product is kosher. Jews are not the only people who follow kosher laws. Muslims and 7th day Adventists are also particular about their meat. Hebrew National as a product lets people know, from the name on the package that it contains no pork. It doesn't mean it was just meant for Jews. It doesn't mean that it means you should be Jewish to eat the hot dog or salami or bologna. It means that everything that carries the Hebrew National label is kosher.

Other manufacturers make kosher hot dogs. Ball Park franks has a kosher dog. But it is not as easy to spot those on the shelf. You have to know what you are looking for is you are looking for a kosher hot dog that isn't Hebrew National.

[outinforce]

140. If I am Looking for A Jewish-Owned Hot Dog,

If I happen to want to ensure myself that (for whatever reason) I buy a hotdog manufactured by a Jewish owned firm, which of the two firms below do you think I am more likely to choose:

Hebrew National

or

Eskay Ball Park Franks

????

It has been a while since I looked in the Bible, but, if I recall correctly, the Book of Exodus, in Chapter 1, refers to "Hebrew midwives" and "Hebrew women", and in Chapter 2, if I recall correctly, Moses sees "two Hebrews" fighting, and he asks one of them why he is striking "a fellow Hebrew".

"Hebrew is also the decedents of a particular area."

Yes, and the term is used in common parlance to refer only to Jewish folks.

By the way, do you think there are many Islamic Palestinians who would purchase Hebrew National Hot Dogs because they are kosher?

[elfwitch]

152. Do you know for a fact that Hebrew National is owned by Jews?

Hebrew National is owned by ConAgra Foods, Inc. which is publicly traded under the symbol of CAG. No single individual owns the company. So if you wanted to be sure you buy a hotdog manufactured by a Jewish owned firm, you'd have to look somewhere else.

Levi Strauss was originally Jewish owned. Then it became a public company. They didn't change the name of the company from the Jewish name of the founder when the company went public. A brand name is a brand name.

By the way, do you think there are many Islamic Palestinians who would purchase Hebrew National Hot Dogs because they are kosher?

I couldn't answer that question. I have never met an Islamic Palestinian and asked them what brand of hot dog they prefer.

[outinforce]

158. D'oh!

ConAgra Foods.

And my hometown in Omaha.

I should have known.

[elfwitch]

163. no hard feelings...

just an honest mistake

[outinforce]

171. No Hard Feelings

and thanks for recognizing that it was an honest mistake.

You and I may disagree on some things, but I don't think we need to harbor bad feelings for each other.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments on this thread, and I apologize if at any time I was uncivil to you.

I do try, believe it or not, to disagree without being disagreeable.

I think that is something we should all strive to do.

[elfwitch]

194. Hey man,

Debate is healthy. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life your right to say it.

[fishwax]

146. Hebrew National -- We answer to a higher authority

Originally the Hebrew National brand was clearly a sign not just of being kosher but the name was also a community touchstone. (Not that it ever meant you couldn't enjoy the hot dog if you weren't Jewish, any more than a fish on a window means you can't come in if you're not Christian.)

Anyway, nowadays the Hebrew National brand is owned by Con Agra. Go figure.

[solinvictus]

261. Adventists

SDA's are actually vegetarian per a religious "your body is the temple of God" thing. They run some great natural food stores here in Chattanooga.

[mmonk]

119. Entirely different on the espanol

Language is a form of communication. You can tell spanish speaking customers you understand them. A religious symbol denotes a line of thinking you want others to know and is unrelated to their purpose for being there.

[KamaAina]

80. Genuine Christians would do no such thing

People who put the "fish" symbol in the ad for their plumbing business or whatever are Johnny-come-lately fundies. The fish is saying, "Look what a good little fundie I am!"

[AntiCoup2K4]

83. I used to work for a "Christian" software company

The owner was a con man
His son, the programmer, was a tweaker.
The marketing director drank a six-pack (sometimes more) at his desk every day.
One of the sales staff was a heroin addict who drifted in and out of recovery. Another used an over the counter ephedra based asthma drug as "speed".

Hell, I was the most Christian among the bunch, and I was a "heathen" by the standards of the customer base (Oh yeah, lots of Freeper types owned this software product, and guess who got to help all the brain dead mutants with their technical illiteracies :hi: )

Uh where was I going with this.... Oh yeah, point is that there's nothing wrong with a Christian owned business, or a Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/fill in the blank business, provided that they are really operating it as such and not abusing religion as a means of cashing in.

Nor do I believe a Christian business should promote a political agenda that is decidedly against the teachings of Jesus Christ. A few years ago, there was a right wing hate group that was trying to get anti gay rights initiatives on the ballot here in Washington state. A Christian bookstore that I had shopped in for years had one of these petitions taped to their front counter for collecting signatures. I told them I could no longer do business with people who were promoting hatred in the name of Jesus Christ. Apparently I wasn't the only one to do so, because the store sold out to a national chain not long after that. Hopefully they learned an economic lesson from their endorsement of anti-Christ doctrines. O8)

[Hubert Flottz]

86. No I've stopped doing business with people for that reason!

GAWD and a friggin' oil change don't mix!

[damnraddem]

88. I had to say 'maybe.'

It depends on what you mean by 'advertise.'

If they say something like 'closed Sunday for worship,' I'll just put that down to having more info than I really need. I'll shop there.

If they put the 'signs' in the telephone book; or if they have copies of a Xtian Yellow Pages with their ad displayed, I won't patronize them.

The difference is in the strategies to establish distinctions so that Fundies will only shop at Fundie businesses -- they can have the Fundies, not me. I don't see saying why they close on Sunday in the same light (although I would enjoy seeing a sign saying "Closed on Sunday to attend orgies").

[outinforce]

110. Would You Also Not Patronize

You say that you would not patronize a firm that displays copies of a Christian Yellow Pages with their ad displayed.

Why is that such a bad thing?

Would you also not patronize a firm that displays copies of a Gay Yellow Pages with its ad displayed?

Do you think that gays display rainbow flags and place ads in gay yellow pages (which they then have copies of witin their stores) in order to "establish distinctions"?

[elfwitch]

127. it looks like it is a matter of choice...

I choose not to patronize outwardly Christan businesses. I chose to patronize outwardly gay businesses. All boils down to choice. I have no problem with gay people and the rights they ask for and deserve.

I do have a problem with Fundamentalist Christians and their methods. I also choose not to patronize WalMart for their unsavory business practices.

The Southern Baptist Convention chooses to boycott Disney for their business practices. How is this any different?

[outinforce]

132. Exactly.

A matter of choice.

NOT based, by the way, on whether the owners of a given company choose to advertize their relgion, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, or any other characteristic.

But based, I think I hear you saying, on something else.

Just as you "have a problem" with fundamentalist Christians and their methods, I know a number of people who "have a problem" with gay people and their method.

If the people I have just mentioned -- people who have a problem with gays and their method -- strike you as being a bit bigoted and a tad paranoid, might I suggest that there are people who think that folks who say they have a problem with fundamental Christians "and their methods" are liekwise.

[ironflange]

94. It bugs me

But if they have something that I really want or need, and there isn't another similar but "secular" place nearby, I'll shop there. Even annoying fundies deserve to make a living, I guess.

[ptsmknhipy]

100. Fish

OK, I take it back. If I was looking to purchase a bible I would have no problem with it. But if I was looking for a Koran, I think I'd be a little suspicious. Gotta look where ya step man.

[mopinko]

97. i should have voted other.

funny you should ask. i was looking for bulk lasar toner just today, and google gave me a "christion" computer supply place. personally, i'm glad they advertised it, so that i could pass them up.

[ptsmknhipy]

99. Plastic Jesus

Admittedly, I'm not religious. But If there is a place that puts a plastic Jesus on the register, or that fish on their business persona. You'se about to get screwed brother. On their 1999 albumn Great White has a song called "Plastic Jesus". Sums it all up.

[rbnyc]

101. No, but not because I think it's tacky or that they should keep it...

...to themselves. I'm just a very non-credal person and would rather not put money into a business that promotes a particular religious point of view.

I think it's fine for a Christian business to say that they are Christian. I thank them for the heads-up.

[Kickin_Donkey]

102. Hell no, I wouldn't patronize them ...

I voted that it's tacky and unnecesary. They have a right to advertise themselves as such; and when then do that, I know who I'm dealing with (or not dealing with, as the case may be). And I have every right to not patronize them.

When a business announces their Christianity, I consider it a form of proselytizing. And I don't want their religion shoved down my throat. I also don't want my money helping to fund their sectarian/political causes like anti-abortion or prayer-in-school campaigns.

Fuck 'em.

[outinforce]

118. And Those Rainbow Flags......?

Those fetching rainbow flags and decals that one finds fluttering over the door ways or proudly displayed in the windows of certain businesses?

Tacky and unnecessary? Or, because announce a queer business, tastful and needed?

And are they, too, a form of proselytizing? Do such symbols, in and of themselves, shove homosexulaity down your throat?

Would you also say "fuck 'em" to they gay owners of certain businesses?

[RichardRay]

103. OTHER - it's information as is everything else they say

Do they have what I need and a price I want to pay? Do they have a reputation for delivering on their promises and dealing fairly with customers? Do I need the product on Sunday?

It probably is a slight turn off, but not to the extent that I'd go buy an inferior product or service at a higher price just to make a point.

[Selwynn]

105. Yes, its a free country, its their company - if I don't like their values,

I don't have to work for them.

[leyton]

179. Darn right.

If Chick-fil-a wants to give all their workers Sunday off for worship and family, that's fine by me. More power to them. They make great chicken sandwiches.

[Fescue4u]

116. Im starting to worry about the people I associate with here

I knew that DU was anti christian, but I had no idea how many anti Christian bigots were here.

So much for liberalism.

[Walt Starr]

130. DU is NOT anti-christian

We leave that to the Repukes, who demonstrate the values of Anti-christ daily.

To quote scripture on the subject:

Matthew 6:5-6

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[outinforce]

143. Well, All I Know Is....

"We leave that to the Repukes, who demonstrate the values of Anti-christ daily"

All know is that Jesus also said "Don't Judge, so that you, also, will not be judged."

I might humbly suggest that saying that anyone else "demonstrates the values of Anti-Christ daily" is judgmental -- very judgmental.

But who am I to judge?

[Walt Starr]

156. I can judge all that I want to

I am not a self-proclaimed Christian. I am a Pagan.

[outinforce]

168. Judge Away.

No skin off my nose.

Just be prepared to be judged by the same standards you judge others.

Or to be called a hypocrite.

[Walt Starr]

170. Judge away if you choose

I never said you should give business to companies that proclaim to be Pagan either!

I see the fish, I go the other way regardless.

[outinforce]

175. Good Deal

"I never said you should give business to companies that proclaim to be Pagan either!"

I don't seem to recall the post where I said that you should give your business to companies that proclaim to be Christian.

Perhaps you could find it for me?

"I see the fish, I go the other way regardless."

That's OK. For you.

I know some folks who, when they see a rainbow flag, just go the other way.

I, however, try not to be so bigoted.

But, hey, that's just me. I would never judge another person.

[Selwynn]

265. He also said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."

On the one hand it seems to discourage us from assuming we have all the answers and/or information about someone else's life. But on the other hand, it also reminds us that we can indeed tell the difference between someone authentic and someone not by the quality of their "fruits."

I don't see much good fruit from the neo-conservative agenda, and I don't feel that saying so contradicts the "judge not" edict.

[elfwitch]

133. I figure...

the Right has co-opted Christianity. As liberals, many of us feel we are already persecuted and maligned by the Neo-Cons. The fact that they use this particular faith to further oppress people has probably made more than a few people here wary of their intentions.

I honestly don't think that anyone here would say that all Christians are bad. There are even a few not so bad Republicans in the world. I think the venom that people unleash here regarding Christians is a backlash against Neo-Conservatism in general.

[bhunt70]

160. yes but that doesnt make it right. It's still a form of prejudice.

[elfwitch]

191. And that is something I can accept

Everybody, no matter how well meaning or noble has prejudices. Prejudice means to pre-judge. I'd have to say that it is heavily ingrained in human behavior. We do not have "instinct" to guide us so we have to work with prejudice. If you had been hit in the back of the head by a blue Frisbee 100 times, you might pre-judge them to be dangerous and avoid them in the future.

Many people have been hit in the back of the proverbial head by the Frisbee of Fundamentalist Christianity, you can't blame anyone for ducking when they see it coming.

[AntiCoup2K4]

262. Backlash against NeoConservatism?

Many of the leaders of the NeoCons/PNAC are actually Jews. Would it be right to unleash venom on all Jewish people, for that reason?

Of course not. As far as my understanding of both the Old and New Testaments go, these traitorous cowards aren't serving any God I've ever heard of. Unless this guy -----> :evilgrin: is considered a "god"

There is nothing within Judaism, Christianity, or any other religion on earth which justifies the neocon agenda, and no religion should be maligned as a result.

[HornBuckler]

117. Come To The Waffle House!

Official Members Of The Church Of Satan Receive 20% Discount On Pork Products!

I Say "Keep Your Religion In Your Pants."

[bhunt70]

131. I would support any business that offers services I need that I can't get

elsewhere, or if they do a good job. I don't care what they advertise as unless it is some sort of hate group.

[mike1963]

134. Right answer is "other" (meaning, sure if you want to get screwed.)

I base this on 50 years of experience.
:eyes:

[genius]

147. I voted no and I'm a Christian.

I think that some branches of Christianity are terrorist in nature and that most Christians don't have any idea of what Jesus was talking about.

[gauguin57]

153. i left my dentist

partly because he played blaring Christian music, and started putting out Bibles and pro-life literature all over his waiting room. He was an OK dentist, but didn't spend enough time with anyone (and sometimes seemed like he had somewhere better to be reallyreallyquick while he was drilling -- little scary --) so that was a basic factor. But the Xtianity-in-your-face stuff was what tore it.

A bunch of local doctors took out a pro-life ad a few years ago that declared abortion to be "bad medicine," saying abortions can cause medical problems and so forth. I keep the ad, and its list of signatories, in a filing cabinet to make sure I NEVER go to any of the people who signed their names on that ridiculousness. Had my gyno not already left the practice I go to, I'd have kicked him to the curb for that alone.

We have a lot of businesses around my conservative area that play Christian music or have little Christian sayings on little placards at the front desk or whatever -- I just tune it out.

[FlaGranny]

169. Maybe, it depends on the business.

I would initially be turned off by the advertisement of their religion, but not enough to not buy something that I wanted that I could only find there, AND if they actually ran their business with Christian values. I have nothing against Christians, but I hate hypocracy.

[sendero]

176. The only business...

... I can remember doing biz with who advertised their Christianity ripped me off and then had the nerve to get pissy when I called to complain.

No effing thanks.

[Cheswick2.0]

184. It would depend... are we talking about Christian book and gift stores?

Cause if I am coveting a certain addition of the bible or a little amber cross I am pretty sure it would be more productive to go to a Christian gift shop. :7
On the other hand if it was a shoe store or something and they made sure to let me know how christian they were....probably not. On the third hand if it was owned by some really cool liberal hippie jesus people, then I probably would support it.

[Zookeeper]

188. I never "matronize" a business with a fish...

in a yellow-pages ad. I haven't for years.

I find it suspicious from the start; the suggestion is "We are honest because we are Christians." The few times in my life I've been "ripped-off" was by pious fundies wearing their religion on their sleeves. In some cases, the thief knew I wasn't a christian and I felt that made it OK in their eyes to steal from me.

I have two fundamentalist Baptist colleges within two miles of my home and have not been overly impressed by the behavior of the students. The attitude many of them have (and I have had this confirmed by a former student of one of the schools) is that they are exempt from normal rules of honesty and behavior unless they are dealing with someone they know is part of their "community."

I also boycott Wal-mart, Home Depot and other companies that I know contribute to the right-wing. I consider it voting with my dollars.

I don't have a problem with mainstream Christians, however, I don't think they are the ones that feel a need to advertise their faith.

[Misunderestimator]

215. MATRONIZE!!!! Love it. New word for the day. Thanks n/t

[Zookeeper]

219. Hi Misunderestimator!

I actually am feeling pretty matronly these days...kind of an uppity dowdiness...:hi:

Edited for smiley.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

192. Absolutley not ! Im gay, and they are the enemy.

No way would I patronize a place like that if I could help it.

[Cheswick2.0]

217. Damn, I am a Christian! Do I have to give up advocating for gay rights?

I had no idea I was the enemy. I best start acting like one. Do I have to get rid of my picture of me and my gay friend at an AIDS quilt display? He was signing the quilt for another friend who had recently died of AIDS and it is a very cool picture because we had found this other friends panel by accident. In the pic M is about 110 lbs and totally wasted away from the desease, but still so much alive. And he is signing this panel and telling G how missed he is etc... then several years later M also died. SO I have always treasured that picture.

It make me really sad to have to get rid of it. I didn't know I was the enenmy.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

220. Your not really a Christian, as most demoninations oppose homosexuality

I know of maybe only three Christian denomonations that fully accept homosexuals and lesbians..the MCC, which is a GLBT church, the United Church of Christ, and the Unitarians/Universalits, and some would say the UUs are not Christian.

So, you may consider yourself a Christian, but you are decidely very much in the minority in this country, at least.

[QC]

231. Who are you to decide whether or not Cheswick is a Christian?

Call me old-fashioned, but I figure that's up to Cheswick.

[AntiCoup2K4]

273. So Christians can't be opposed to bigotry?

You must be reading the same Bible that Falwell, Robertson, and Phelps do if you believe that.

[Cheswick2.0]

274. well you don't really have a brain cause thats the dumbest thing I read

today.

Got stats to prove how many christians think the way you say they do? Or do you imagine you can really put people into those little narrow boxes?
I would say you have no freakin clue how most christians think.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

195. i quit patronizing a Chick-Fil-A because .....

they constatnly played christian pop music. i don't have a problem with it, i just really dislike the music, it is very annoying.

[doni_georgia]

198. I am a Christian

I base my decision on which businesses to patronize depending on their business practices and the service I receive when I patronize their business. I do patronize several businesses that advertise they are Christian owned. Others I don't. Depends on the individual business. I use the same standards regardless of whether the business advertises it's Christian owned or not.

[Taverner]

213. Christianity does not equal fundamentalism

In-N-Out is run by a Christian. At the same time, he loves to donate to lefty causes, and was a leading figure in the WWJD movement (What Would Jesus Drive? - Christian Environmentalists)

Yet, every cup has a bible verse under the rim, on the bottom.

Remember, Jesus Christ was a Lefty AND a Socialist.

[Ksec]

216. No problem here unless they are just exploiting

the point to get customers.

I wouldnt have a problem with any religious business who is proud of their faith.

[Iris]

223. I think it's tacky to use God for personal gain.

[MrSlayer]

228. No, I would intentionally avoid it.

[arwalden]

246. When I See That Little FISH Logo On Yellow Pages Ads... I RUN AWAY

and don't call them at all... EVER!

Never, never, never! Ain't gonna happen.

Nah-gah-da!

Not prudent.

Not at this juncture!

[Piperay]

255. No, I wouldn't because

that doesn't prove anything. When I was going to church the minister was telling some of us that all the time he had people joining the church because they thought it would help their business. Also said that all the time people wanted to run their schemes out of the church, use the church offices and rooms to entice people in and he would tell them again and again NO! Putting up a Christain sign doesn't mean anything in the way you conduct your business.

[solinvictus]

259. Nice Cars for Good People

They're a local buy-here/pay here used car lot that advertises with a Xtian fish in their logo. Well, this business is known for gouging buyers with a markup of about 70-100% over fair market value on their junker cars. I've seen them on the side of the road here in town and a co-worker had one burn to the shell in the parking lot. They wear their religion on their sleeve to cheat customers.

[drdigi420]

260. NO, hell no, and not a chance

How can you trust a business to have any integrity at all if they cant even tell fact from fiction?

[Deja Q]

263. I'd call 'em on it

Point out some Biblical verses and get their take on it.

Ask them what they feel of certain hot-button issues.

And go from there.

[brook]

264. Never.

It's extremely offensive to me...not to mention, it's a red flag about their agenda or their crappy business practices. If the first thing you want me to know about you is your religious tendencies, I really don't care to know you.

[troublemaker]

270. Terrible Poll

>No, it is tacky and unnecassary.
>No, they should keep their religion to themselves.

This isn't a friggin' etiquette issue!

How about, "No, I do not support people that oppose my quiet enjoyment of the fruits of civilization."

Or, "I don't give money to people that fantasize about me being tortured for eternity."

[Kelvin Mace]

271. Nope...

To quote myself:

"Never buy from merchants or tradesmen who display fish logos, or other signs of their "Christianity". Anyone arrogant enough to use God as a marketing tool will cheat you without remorse."

Observations of a Heretic

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[trogdor]

272. How about NO, the Jesus Fish is a fig leaf.

Those who sport the Fish are no less likely to cheat their customers than those who do not. In fact, I might suggest you are probably more likely to get ripped off by someone who puts a Jesus Fish on his or her store than otherwise. They are hoping you will see the Fish and be lulled into a false sense of security while you are being fleeced.

Being saved doesn't exempt anyone from the weaknesses of human nature. Quite the opposite, it provides a handy rationalization for such weakness that encourages its further development. Seen it happen. A lot.