Do you get upset when you see someone displaying a raggedy flag?

[billbuckhead]

I saw a big American flag today in front of a business and it was very tore up. To add insult to injury, they had a half scale Mexican flag flying under the American flag that was almost as raggedy. Faux patriots. Heres my question---------- Is flying a torn up flag worse than burning a flag?

[Goldmund]

1. It's a piece of cloth...

Who cares?

[freetobegay]

3. Who cares?

:eyes:

[sweettater]

8. Since my brother who was KIA

in Vietnam had the flag draped on his casket and my parents have it with his belongings along with his childhood mementos, I take offense to, "Who Cares". I care and I am sure many others who have had loved ones killed in so many wars feel the same. Shame on you.

[Djinn]

12. did he die for a flag?

I'm not American and I think it's a cultural thing - few Australia's would give a toss if you wiped your bum with our flag - most are made in the third world in sweatshops now so they're more a symbol of corporate greed and the loss of manufacturing jiobs in the developed world than anything else.

Surely there are many many more things to get pissed off at - like the fact that once again US soldiers are being blatantly lied to an told they'er "protecting American freedom" from people who never threatened it in anyway

[freetobegay]

13. Just one of the many things that set us apart.

From one another.

[JohnLocke]

26. He died for his country, and the flag is a symbol of that (nt).

[leesa]

37. No offense, but he probably died for the enrichment of a US corporation

That might be worth it to someone....especially the 1% that make a monetary killing from it.

[Djinn]

48. really

I'm sure that's why he (and thousands of others went) but that's NOT what they fought for. How exactly did a Vietnamese nationalist movement trying to overthrow years of colonial rule hurt Americans or present any threat to them?

[Goldmund]

51. Exactly.

And the flag was one of the main instruments of deceiving him (and thousands of others) into thinking that they were fighting for their country.

[Goldmund]

15. OK, ShameOnMe(TM). Whatever.

It's not the flag that your parents have with your brother's belongings that the original poster was talking about. It's a different one.

I'm not trying to be a smartass. I loathe meaningless symbols, such as flags. Why meaningless, you ask? Because the only purpose a flag serves is to be an axis around which to crystallize national manipulation. Under that flag, great deeds were done and great discoveries made. Also under that flag, innocent children were killed. It means nothing by itself. It sits there empty, ready to absorb a temporal meaning of what ever powers-that-be of a time want it to mean. It is that flag that Bush raises when he embarks on his crusades, and uses its weight and power to manipulate those who love it. Symbols mean nothing to me.

[smirkymonkey]

63. My sentiments exactly

to me, if the American Flag symbolizes anything these days, it's shame.

I just don't have it in me to revere inanimate objects.

[Bandit]

72. I care

But not about you.

[Goldmund]

73. OK.

[Ksec]

2. I really never gave it much thought

But no. I dont get upset. I have to admit I havent been flying my flag nearly as much as I used to since bash was selected.

[truthseeker1]

4. A raggedy flag is pretty appropriate symbol for this country at the moment

sorry, but I really don't give a crap about the damn flag. I used to but now I realize it's just a symbol and people get WAY too uptight about what people choose to use their flags for or how to care for them.

[mrgorth]

33. Agreed

Let them fly frayed until we replace the govt.

[DinahMoeHum]

62. And after replacing the government, burn that frayed flag in a

ceremony (at sundown). Or give it to the local American Legion-VFW and let them properly dispose of it.

Next morning, at 0800, fly a brand new flag. For a brand new government and a brand new day.


:kick:

[elfwitch]

64. I think of the flag as...

the equivalent of the crucifix. If patriotism is the religion of the state, then the flag is the crucifix of the religion that is nationalism.

I don't bow down to the crucifix, I will not pay homage to the flag. It's just that simple.

[MissRegina]

5. Maybe That Person

Can't afford to get a new one--what with the economy the way it is and all.

Burning the flag is worse than flying a tattered one. I think the act of burning the flag is stupid but shouldn't be banned. What would be the point of freedom?

[whistle]

6. What about all those raggedy flags flying on the....

...outside of people's SUV's? Surely those people should be able to afford to either replace them with new ones or take them off their vehicles. Seeing a raggedy flag doesn't upset me, it only tells me that the people who are displaying them have no regard for their own image. It's like wearing torn clothing or not bathing regularly.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. I absolutely get pissed off

My stance on this is two fold. On one hand, I am completely opposed to a flag-burning amendment. If someone is burning the flag to prove a point, that's a form of speech and should be protected under the Constitution. If they want to look like a jackass, that's their right to do so. However, people who fly ragged flags are trying to show their patriotism and fail miserably. There are definitely rules of etiquette to caring for the symbol of our freedom and country. People who disrespect the flag under the guise of trying to be patriotic are disgusting in my book. If they love the flag and love the country, they can take some simple steps to ensure that it is treated with the respect and dignity it deserves. This is something I will also NEVER forgive Republicans for. Bush has signed many American flags, which is a major violation of flag etiquette, and the Republican party has profiteered off of and exegisized the flag, which is an even more egregious violation of flag etiquette. They've whored out our flag in the name of their twisted ideals.

[tom_paine]

18. Which is all the more important that we not allow them to steal it

It's OUR flag, too!

Hell, with them licking Imperial Boot like a bunch of Soviets, it is even now possible to claim it as ours and turn the tables on the unAmerican bastards.

(not sure I'd want to be like them even if I could, but I am ROYALLY PISSED!)

In any case, I fly my flag raggedy for a personal reason. Feel free to condemn me after you've heard it.

The day Wellstone died, I wept, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I went home and switched my flag to half-staff position. In spite of the fact that he was well to the Left of me, given the situation and his strong integrity and principles combined with my/our desperate need for it made Wellstone MY Senator. I actually had started saying that to people.

I think the Busheviks noticed that this guy could be trouble. We'll never know the truth, so don't think I am saying this is DEFINITELY what happened, but I believe the Busheviks "outsourced" his assassination, probably to the Colombians who had already tried to blow him up and dumped him with a planeload of insecticide.

(funny how we never heaqrd about that)

Anyway, in honor of Paul, I flew at half-staff. After a week, I thought to myself, "The Old American Republic is dying, possibly dead. The murder of Wellstone, securing the Two-Dead-Senator Bushevik Imperial Party Advantage was complete: Mission Accomplished, you Bushevik Fucks! :grr:, may well have been the final nail in the coffin.

(though to be sure I still hope and pray that I/we DUers are sorely mistaken and hysterical and everything the arrogant naysayers think we are, and that the Old America will bounce back as if nothing ever happened...the HAPPIEST plate of crow I'll ever eat)

That flag remains there today...at half-staff & tattered. I will buy a new one if and when the Old Republic has been restored.

Which is not to say I will hang that flag indefinitely until it's a disgrace. That I'll not do.

So, that's my reason. You can flame me if you'd like. But I'm one of those guys flying a tattered flag (at half-staff).

Thought you'd like to know.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

58. Like I said

The people who burned the flag do it for a political point. It's an expression of free speech. I may not agree, but I accept that. It's a very strong statement.

Obviously, you've got a pretty strong political statement there too. I happen to agree with your statement. But 95% of the people who fly tattered flags do it because they're cheap and lazy. I have little faith in the majority of America to have the same level of reasoning and foresight that you do. And unless I knew you and did know your point, I'd have to assume you were the unpatriotic bastard imposter that most of the others were. Sorry, but we can't always get both sides of the story and it's usually a waste of time to try. I'm not going to flame you, but realize that is the message you're probably sending to others and not the one you intend.

[tom_paine]

61. Understood. And thanks. I'll consider it.

It may be in the end that the only person receiving the message wthat I care about is me.

But I'll think about what you said.

[Wickerman]

9. Yes, its worse

If you want to show disdain for policy, or disagreement with leadership (in extreme form) then fly your flag upside down. The only point being made by the idiots who let their flags get ripped and faded is the point that they are lazy fake patriots. Particularly businesses. 10 to 1 they have a little fish in their window or Yellow pages ad, too.

Years ago I called a McDonalds and told them their flag was a disgrace. they had it changed when I drove past an hour later.

[OpSomBlood]

14. Ugh...the Jesus fish in the advertisements...

Here, there are some companies that actually say "we're Christian-owned" in their television ads. It makes me want to hurl, and I'm a Christian.

[Wickerman]

19. I was always suspicious of the transmission shop down the street

that had the fish and the flag. That was confirmed when I saw them on the news in a consumer scam alert. How did they handle it? Bigger fish, bigger flag. :puke:

[tcfrogs]

25. I never see or hear ads that say the company is Christian owned

Although, I do remember when living in the South/Southwest I did. Of course, I also am a compulsive channel changer too.

[DustMolecule]

53. LOL

yep, when I see that lil fish in the yellow-page ads I think, "come here all ya little lemmings....I'll smile and we'll 'praise the Lord together whilst I rip you off just like 'the other guy' and 'poke your lil girl in the back room (if I have the chance....he he he he...)"

[elfwitch]

65. Any business that puts their so-called "Christianity" in their ads...

will never get a nickel from me. I don't spend money at Hobby Lobby any more because of their hours of business sign that says they are closed on Sunday for worship and family.

I don't support business that donate to pro-life organizations. I don't support businesses that advertise what good Christians they are.

Keep you f-ing Jesus to yourself!

[happynewyear]

43. damn you must know the people across the street from me

They have that - a ragged flag (Made in China type) and the fish flag thingy outside their front door.

Makes me wanna :puke: everytime I see it.

They often leave the flag out there until it is dark outside.

I find the whole thing to be a disgrace.

Its our flag - honor it or don't fly it!

:kick:

[OpSomBlood]

10. Pisses me off royally.

I remember on 9/11 I was staying at a Holiday Inn Express, and the hotel was flying a raggedy, tattered flag at half-mast with a Holiday Inn flag on the same pole.

I was livid enough about the events of the day, but that nearly drove me over the edge.

[goddess40]

11. It bothers me because the right makes such a fuss ...

about flag ettiquete and then break the rules themselves. Which is pretty typical of the right.

Example: After the war started we carried flags upside down. I can't tell you how many people were offended by our "improper" displaying of the flag. Even after we explained that it is a legit way to display it.
My son's school has a Flag that fly's with two others on the same pole.
It is faded and ratty
It regularly gets caught in the tree next to the pole.

When I pointed this out to some freeper parents, some of the same ones with the neg. comments about the upside down flag, they just shrugged their shoulders. The principal doesn't care either.

[Lefty48197]

28. Remember all those Republican dipsh*ts who flew the flag upside down

during the Clinton administration? I kept seeing them in the back window of gun-nutmobiles. Basically, it was their way of saying that they had declared war on the U.S.A. As if the Tim McVeigh "incident" hadn't confirmed that already.

[goddess40]

60. I don't remember that

the repukes in my area didn't do that. But I sure do believe it the repukes motto is do as I say not as I do

[Mikimouse]

16. I can only speak to the question of the US flag, but...

I would have to say that a raggedy flag is quite appropriate as a reflection of the counrty at this moment in history.

[LWolf]

17. other.

Neither is "worse."

I don't get upset.

I don't really understand the passion, one way or another. Really. I don't agree or disagree; I just don't relate.

I'd rather drive a nice, new, clean, polished, pristine vehicle. But I don't hide my old beater because it no longer fits that description. It still serves my purpose.

So I guess it depends on the purpose.

[Esurientes]

20. And I hate cheap nylon "U.S." flags made offshore

with printed-on stars and pinkish stripes, sized 3' x 5' or larger, flying over a teeny porch or landscape spot.

No wonder the things get ragged so quickly, as shabbily as they're produced.

I'd fly a flag on holidays if I could find a decent-looking one in the right proportions for sale.

[tcfrogs]

23. A little flag info

My parents run a small business that sells flags. The cheapies you see are the ones you can buy at the hardware store or at your major retail store, Target/K-Mart/Wal-Mart, etc. Cheap looking flags are almost always cotton. Nylon or polyester are the best made, with embroidered stars & sewn stripes.

And, there is nothing wrong with flying a 3x5 (standard size) in front of your home. A tattered flag, yes. The next size down is 2x3, but I think that looks too small in front of a house. IMHO.

I won't post their website here, because I don't feel it's appropriate to shamelessly plug on this board.

If you're interested, send me an e-mail (i'm still new, so I think you can do that, right?).

[tcfrogs]

24. and by the way

None of the flags they sell are made outside of the U.S. There are a number of major flag manufacturers in the U.S., and my parents won't buy ones that aren't American made.

In the brief times that I helped them out years ago in the summer, you wouldn't believe how many people ask whether the flag is made in the U.S.

I don't know this for a fact, but a lot of the flags you see at major retailers ARE made overseas.

[PragMantisT]

21. I don't know why, but it bothers me quite a bit.

I am not a real flag buff, but there are protocols.

My brother, a frothing wingnut, left the flag up at my mom's house 24/7. Rain or shine. I took it in when I visited, as long as it wasn't a holiday. And dumbass would put it out again and leave it. Ultimately, the thing was in tatters. Whenever I told bro that it looked like hell, he said, "Naaah man, ragged glory."
WTF, a ragged glory is a flag that has been in battle, not one that has been neglected! I hated that sh*t. If you care so much about a symbol, TAKE CARE OF IT PROPERLY! Don't fly a flag to show how much of a patriot you think you are. Fly a flag because you are proud of what it symbolizes and care for it. There are plenty of ways to show your patriotism, like exercising your rights and seeing that others rights are protected. Now we have a nice new flag and pole and it flies on holidays and is taken in at nightfall. It is never flown in the rain. There are protocols, after all.

One of the things I despise about our flag protocol is that it is not to be dipped before other heads of state, such as in the Olympic procession. How arrogant! It's a freaking flag. If other countries refused to dip their flags at SLC or LA Olympics, we'd go to war!

[Esurientes]

22. Subject: And I hate cheap nylon "U.S." flags made offshore

with printed-on stars and pinkish stripes, sized 3' x 5' or larger, flying over a teeny porch or landscape spot.

No wonder the things get ragged so quickly, as shabbily as they're produced.

I'd fly a flag on holidays if I could find a decent-looking one in the right proportions for sale.

SORRY to post twice; the site gave me an error message and told me to post again.

~ Kris::technophobe

[bpilgrim]

27. reminds me of the simpsons

it's sad though, in 3D

peace

[billbuckhead]

29. To me , it's seems many of us will fight a homocidal bar fight over it

and some corporation, "Wal-Mart" patriot or freeper doesn't even care.

[Lefty48197]

30. Yes I do

You shouldn't display a tattered flag.
If you're trying to make some kind of statement, then flying a tattered flag might be appropriate, but if you're just intending to fly the flag, then using a tattered one is really tasteless. Those ones I see flying from auto antennae are really shameful.

[billbuckhead]

32. How they displayed the Mexican flag was disrespectful of both flags

The corporation displayed the Mexican flag like a state flag, a tattered state flag.

[jonnyblitz]

31. umm. no. I don't get all whacked out over flags. wingnuts do. n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

34. It's only apporpriate - it stands for our "town and tattered" country.

n/t

[JohnOneillsMemory]

57. Then it should also be thoroughly soaked in blood. Of other nations.

[doc03]

35. The one that upsets me is these morons that have one on each side

of their car like General Patton. I have seen several of those flags laying on the road. One of those assholes lived across the road from me and flew a flag upside down in his yard for 8 years when Clinton was President.

[tjwash]

40. I saw a guy with 5 flags on his car the other day...

...telling the guy with only 2 flags on his to go back to Iraq.

Seriously, I really don't care either way, and I am a veteran, and had to snap to and salute the flag twice a day for six years while I was in. We are a little too fucking symbol happy in the US as it is. I do put my flag up at the house on my day off though. It was a Christmas gift from my brother.

[NinetySix]

36. Flag Etiquette

Why is it that the people who so despise flag desecration that they are hell-bound to pass an amendment to the Constitution seem at the same time to consistently fly Old Glory to ribbons, or until it becomes the Pink, Off-White, and Powder Blue? They seem to say, "these colors never run...but they sure do fade in the sun after a while, don't they?"

I have an interest in vexillology, and in my opinion, the colors of any banner should be respected at least to the extent that they should be taken down and replaced when they become tattered or faded. Nevertheless, to me the flag takes a distant second place behind the First Amendment, such that the burning, inversion, or alteration of the flag as a political statement represents legitimate political symbolism in my opinion.

I've tried in the past to imagine ways to "legally" express that political sentiment should a flag-burning amendment be added to the Constitution, and here's what I've come up with:

1) Since the precise design of the flag is codified in detail, burn a "caricature" of it--e.g., 57 stars, red and yellow stripes, gold stars, etc.

2) Burn a similar flag of the world, with which most Americans are unfamiliar, then when arrested, claim you are protesting the actions of another country. Liberia's and Malaysia's flags are ideal in this regard.

3) Fashion a flag with an orange field, green and black stripes, and black stars. Burn it. Capture this burning on color film. Print the picture as a negative, and the field will be blue, the stripes red and white, and the stars white. The photograph, not a true representation of the actual event, will convey the political message.

Yeah, so I've got a bit of time on my hands.

[BiggJawn]

38. It makes me sad. Furkin' "Sunshine Patriots"

Went out on 9-12 and bought the first (and only) flag they could get their hands on, and I'll bet they haven't even thought of it since they stapled it to the edge of their porch.

Min'es stored away, embroidered stars and all, waiting for the day when the Chimp is GONE.

[doc03]

39. Some of those assholes stole them off of graves.

[corporatewhore]

41. Flag=Toliet Paper

Fuck Nationalism

[JohnLocke]

44. Question

Nationalistic tendencies aren't completely or even mostly negative. Nationalism helps form national unity and is a natural part of human nature. And surely you support Palestinian statehood -- that, too, is an example of nationalism at work. So when you say "nationalism," don't you really mean "jingoism" or "American exceptionism"?

Thanks. :)

[Goldmund]

45. You raise an interesting question.

I couldn't agree more with the "fuck nationalism" sentiment, but I also support Palestinian statehood. There are two reasons for this: 1) Whatever I may feel about nationalism, it's a fact of life, and as is the case with anything else, if you believe in democracy then you believe that people should be able to have states, fly flags, sing anthems, etc. Being an atheist doesn't mean supporting a ban on religion; same goes here. 2) The case of the Palestinian state has an added dimension of physical security of their people -- security from Israel. States accomplish pragmatic things, and although I'd love to see a world with local jurisdictions but without nationalism, it isn't the real world at this point in history.

I think the concept of "national unity" is only as good as far as it intersects philanthropy and humanism. Anything on top of that repulses me.

[Djinn]

50. don't know about corporatewhore

but me, I actually DON'T support a Palestinian nation - I think it'd only cause more grief for the Palestinians AND the Israelis - I'm a one state gal myself (without getting into the likelihood of that ever happening - most people don't really beleive in world peace ever happening doesn't mean you stop working towards it)

I see bugger all that's useful coming out of nationalism, mine your or theirs - if one has any sense of history (beyond the 20th C which many people don't seem to have) it is a ridiculous concept that makes no sense.

Again I'm happy to admit that living where I do (and being born in Scotland which has generally only seen the bad end of jingoism) probably has something to with it.

To paraphrase Bill Hicks - no-one died for the flag - they died for the freedom (if one beleives the myths) TO BURN the fucking flag

[TexasMexican]

42. Yeah it shows that the person responsible for that flag is lazy.

[durutti]

46. I don't believe in idol worship.

Sorry.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

47. It gives the flag character

The flag, a symbol of America, has weathered the storm, but survived.

And we are in a SHIT STORM right now.

I say keep the old flags. Never destroy them. Fly them until they are one piece of red thread.

[bacchant]

49. There's a guy on my street who has four flags on his SUV

jackass-times-4

[bigbillhaywood]

52. Don't care about flags unless it's black and red.

[DustMolecule]

56. What does a black and red flag mean?

n/t

[Dr Fate]

54. I notice it but I cant say I get angry.

n/t

[Wapsie B]

55. It does

because for some reason so many people don't see flying a tattered flag as being flag desecration. To me if you don't have any more respect for the colors than that you might as well burn it. Galls me when some drive around in SUV's and pickups with multiple flags, all ragged. Don't show me faux patriotism with a flag up your ass. Show me true citizenship. Register people to vote. Volunteer in your area.

[pezcore64]

59. well

i know some historical torn up flags that are very beautiful ;)

[RichardRay]

66. Depends on the reason it's raggedy

If someone chooses to display a flag then let them do it according to the rules unless they have a statement to make that requires displaying a raggedy, inverted, etc. flag.

Just putting a flag up on your vehicle or the front of your house or business and then letting it stay there until it rots away strikes me as being a statement the meaning of which might not have been exactly what the dipalyer had in mind. It's probably exactly correct, though.

[writekid]

67. missing the point

as long as we worship symbols it makes little difference whether they are ragged or pristine. think about it for a second. you are somehow equating a ragged piece of clothe to a ragged country. is that the connection that you're implying? that's not sane thinking.

[nomaco-10]

68. Somehow a worn out ragged flag seems....

appropriate at this time in our nation's history. Me, I think I'd like to see more flags hung upside down. I think that pretty much says it all.

[demigoddess]

69. YES SIR

Some of my neighbors have not taken their flags down since 2001 or so. If you are such a patriot you should follow the RULES for showing the flag.

[dryan]

71. Flag protocal

A flag that is ripped or torn is not supposed to be shown in public unless it is from a historic event such as during a battle. I have seen the flag that was flown over Iwo Jima for instance and it was in pretty bad shape. Believe it or not, the City of Orlando used to fly a flag that flew over Lake Eola that was completely torn in half. I sent a letter to the Mayor of Orlando at the time and the City bought a new one.

[TankLV]

70. I'm more upset that they're trying to shove their support of bunkerboy

down our throats while implying that they are "patriotic" and we're scum.

I can't wait till Kerry wins, and then I want to see how fast all these sunshine patriots' flags will disappear.

I plan to reclaim my country's symbol and plaster it all over the place. I've been in mourning for the past 3 1/2 years far too long.

Turnabout will be so sweet.

[Solly Mack]

74. I have a confession....

I live on an army post, as most of you already know...

quite a bit of flag flying in the housing areas..lots of military folk who don't know flag protocol or just don't care.

Anyway...if the person flying the flag is a known rightwinger and their flag isn't being displayed properly..I report them.

It's a violation to fly the flag on post improperly.

I know..I know..petty. LMAO but I don't care. Spout off about people burning the flag are evil..yet can't even fly the flag correctly.