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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:07 PM
Original message
A question about the World Trade Center (pre-9/11)
Edited on Wed May-19-04 03:10 PM by skypilot
Does anyone know if they had regular fire drills at the World Trade Center, and if so how were they conducted?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, same as every other place
On a regular basis, the bell would ring and everybody would go downstairs.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. according to testimony I heard yesterday
they had 'drills' but only gathered in the hallways.

they never actually evacuated the building. ('we didn't ask them to walk down 50 flights')

one tenant (a financial firm IIRC) had more aggressive drills (and a lot of them survived because they didn't pay attention to the 'go back to your desks' or 'wait for help' instructions)

in the North Tower, the PA system was knocked out by the impact and most got no instructions.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
42. NYC Office Fire Drill
Yes: You mostly just gather in a hallway and listen to the fire drill guy walk you through. Most places have employee "fire marshalls" on each floor who have designated tasks in case of emergency. I held the post for 4 months at one point.

Only one in four fire drills actually require full-scale evacuation of the building (walking down the stairs). But you do have to do that from time to time.
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Damfino Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. fire drills
I suspect so. I work in an NYC office, and regular building fire drills are a NYC law.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. i 'used' to work in an office tower in midtown
only once, post-9/11 did we actually go down to the street.

we just met in the hall by the exit. heard the same speil. and went back to work.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The reason I'm asking...
...is precisely because of those instructions that were given to the people in the second tower, that they should just go back to work because their building was "secure". It just seems to me that Sept.11 would have been as good a day as any to have a fire drill after the first tower was hit. The only thing I can think is that maybe they were afraid that if they called for a fire drill on the heels of the first crash the people in the second tower would panic.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. taking it a step further
since the bushies KNEW about plans to attack the WTC, an IMMEDIATE full evacuation of the South Tower should have been done.

the excuse that there was danger from falling bodies/debris from the North Tower is lame. those that DID evacuate used the underground concourse to escape the WTC complex.

if the bushies had properly notified NYC authorities about the threat, hundreds could have survived the South Tower hit.

that's a FACT.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yes.
With what we now know about "bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" among other things, Bush definitely has blood on his hands for sitting there claiming to think that the first crash was an accident while the workers in the second tower went back to work. But actually, I wasn't trying to start a conspiracy thread. I've just been curious for some time now about if and how the WTC conducted fire drills.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. i don't really consider that fact
Edited on Wed May-19-04 03:59 PM by nostamj
to be a 'conspiracy'

it's a FAILURE. beyond that, it *might* be a conspiracy too.

if you can find the first session from Tuesday's hearings on c-span, you'll get all the details about drills, etc.

on edit: dumb typo! wrote Monday for "c-span" - a natural mistake! <sigh>
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Re:Hearings, details
Thanks for that info.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Not only that, the WTC increased security in August
There was a significant increase in security at the WTC sometime during the month of August, with new ID procedures and more security guards.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Second question, did the WTC have a sprinkler system?
If there was one, did it come on?

Is that why there was so much black smoke? Black smoke normally means that the fire is going out or having a hard time taking hold?

Also, same question in regards to WTC 7, did they have a sprinkler system there? Especially since NYC emergency Command and Control was located in that building, you would think that building would have extra safety equipment?



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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think I read that the sprinkler system...
...was disabled by the crash.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. In both towers
and in WTC 7? I think that would be very unlikely.


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graham67 Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I wonder...
if a typical fire sprinkler system could even handle the initial ignition of so much jet fuel.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. people (willfully?) forget
that WTC7 was heavily damaged by failing debris from a collapsing WTC tower. Guiliani was nearly trapped there.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. The sprinklers in both towers were disabled by the crashes
which cut through the water pipes. Also, water won't put out burning fuel. Remember, oil and water don't mix!!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Most of the fuel burnt off in the fire ball
after that it was mostly the building and the stuff inside that was burning.

Does anyone have a link to a report or anything that says the sprinklers were knocked out, or are we all just making assumptions? I'm not trying to imply that WTC 1 & 2 could have been saved, but WTC 7 shouldn't have been a total disaster resulting in the implosion of the entire building.



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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Not true, and you have been consistently wrong
Most of the fuel did NOT burn off in the fire ball, and even if it did, there's still a lot of fuel left. Furthermore, as others have explained, sprinklers aren't expected to extinguish fires.

Does anyone have a link to a report or anything that says the sprinklers were knocked out, or are we all just making assumptions?

No link, but I did read the reports. The sprinklers were knocked out.

I'm not trying to imply that WTC 1 & 2 could have been saved, but WTC 7 shouldn't have been a total disaster resulting in the implosion of the entire building.

Here's a clue: Since you haven't yet been right about even one detail, what you think should have happened to WTC7 is meaningless. I consider the opinions of engineers more credible than someone who has been wrong about every detail so far, but maybe that's just me.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Consistently wrong?
If you happen to notice, almost every sentence I've posted so far has been in the form of a question?

I think they are legitimate questions and instead of getting answers, I get attacked? It's really funny how people get ballistic if anyone even questions how and why these buildings collapsed the way they did.

Sorry, I know I don't know the answers to what happened, but I do know the party line about what happened doesn't make sense either.

Now about that sprinkler system? Anyone have any links to what kind of equipment was installed in the WTC and why it failed? Thanks.


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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. "why it failed?"
gee... dunno... impact by FULLY FUELED JETLINERS taking out several FLOORS and igniting a major conflagration?

maybe?

there is some video if you missed it...

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. The sprinklers were working on the 81st floor
of WTC 2 after the impact, at least according to this eyewitness who was one of the fire marshalls for his floor. Again, I am not saying that the sprinklers would have saved WTC 1 & 2, but to say the entire system failed is not true either. All I'm asking at this point, before people attack other people personally is to back up their attacks with facts. Here are the facts that I have been able to find so far.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html

Above the Impact: A Survivor's Story

Brian Clark, an executive vice president at Euro Brokers, a brokerage firm that had offices on the 84th floor of 2 World Trade Center, was one of only a few people to escape either tower from above the floors where the planes struck. In this interview for the NOVA program "Why the Towers Fell," assistant producer Matt Barrett simply let the camera roll as Clark told his astounding tale. Only slightly edited for clarity here, the interview reveals, in vividly recalled detail, how snap decisions, gut instinct, and a touch of luck worked together in Clark's favor and that of the man whose life he saved.

<snip>

So Stanley and I went back to the stairs on the 81st floor, and we began down. The first five floors were difficult, because in certain areas dry wall had been blown off the wall and was lying propped up against the railing. We had to move it, shove it to the side. The sprinkler system had turned on and had started to do something, but it wasn't doing its job as it should, so there was water sloshing down the stairways. It was dark.


Also, I found this detailed description of the sprinkler system. Seems to me it would be difficult to knock out the entire system in both towers and the adjacent buildings, based on the way the system was designed. Did some of the system fail? Probably? Did the impact of the jets knock out the entire system? I doubt it. Did the system kick in the way it was supposed to? So far, I haven't found proof one way or another. It seems in some areas the system didn't come on at all. In other areas there was water all over the place. Again, I'm still waiting for a link or proof from one of the naysayers around here, that the entire system failed.


http://serendipity.911review.org/wot/wtc_ch2.htm

2.1.3.2 Suppression

When originally constructed, the two towers were not provided with automatic fire sprinkler protection. However, such protection was installed as a retrofit circa 1990, and automatic sprinklers covered nearly 100 percent of WTC 1 and WTC 2 at the time of the September 11 attacks. In addition, each building had standpipes running through each of its three stairways. A 1.5-inch hose line and a cabinet containing two air pressurized water (APW) extinguishers were also present at each floor in each stairway.

The primary water supply was provided by a dedicated fire yard main that looped around most of the complex. This yard main was supplied directly from the municipal water supply. Two remotely located high pressure, multi-stage, 750-gallons per minute (gpm) electrical fire pumps took suction from the New York City municipal water supply and produced the required operating pressures for the yard main.

Each tower had three electrical fire pumps that provided additional pressure for the standpipes. One pump, located on the 7th floor, received the discharge from the yard main fire pumps and moved it up to the 41st floor, where a second 750-gpm fire pump pushed it up to a third pump on the 75th floor. Each fire pump produced sufficient pressure to supply water to the pump two stages up from it in the event that any one pump should fail. Several 5,000-gallon storage tanks, filled from the domestic water system, provided a secondary water supply. Tanks on the 41st, 75th, and 110th floors provided water directly to a standpipe system. A tank on the 20th floor supplied water directly to the yard main. Numerous Fire Department of New York (FDNY) connections were located around the complex to allow the fire department to boost water pressure in the buildings.




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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yes, consistently wrong
If you happen to notice, almost every sentence I've posted so far has been in the form of a question?

And again, consitently wrong. A large proportion of your sentences were assertions, not questions. You said (not asked):

1) that WTC 7 shouldn't have collapsed
2) Black smoke is a sign that a fire is going out
3) The crash shouldn't have damaged the sprinklers in WTC7

That's just off the top of my head.

I think they are legitimate questions and instead of getting answers, I get attacked? It's really funny how people get ballistic if anyone even questions how and why these buildings collapsed the way they did.

Some of us object to having those deaths used for political purposes. That's particularly true when it's done by someone who obviously hasn't got the facts straight. And, as i've pointed out, you've done more than merely ask questions. You made assertions that are untrue.

Now about that sprinkler system? Anyone have any links to what kind of equipment was installed in the WTC and why it failed? Thanks

And it doesn't help for you to repeat questions that have already been asked and answered. Another poster has supplied a link that reports that people in the towers at the time of the crash were reporting that the sprinklers weren't working.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. What is political about wanting to know what happened?
I was born and raised in NYC. I grew up while there while the Towers were being built. I used to get to ride in their freight elevators to the top, in my boyfriend's delivery truck. Two weeks before they fell was the last time I saw them flying into LaGuardia to attend my grandmother's funeral.

That's why I fucking want to know what happened. It has little to do with politics.

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Making assertions is NOT the same as asking questions
You're not going to persuade me of your good intentions by repeating the false claim that you have only been asking questions.

And if you want to know what happened, try Google. The facts have been reported, and you're not the only one who lives in NYC. Do what the rest of us have done...educate yourself.
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graham67 Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Hmmm...
I've never read about WTC fire sprinkler systems. Ever see a building on fire before and after the fire dept arrives? Soon as they put water on the fire, the smoke goes from black to white (steam I suppose?). I know that wood frame structure fires create black, black smoke. This is a good discussion...I'll have to ask my firefighter SO about it tonight.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I expect that
no sprinkler system could have tackled that blaze. That fire was absolutely raging.
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graham67 Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yeah....
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no expert. But I think that the intense heat of such a huge amount of jet fuel might have evaporated any water from sprinklers even if they were in working order after the towers were struck.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's right. They are called "fire suppression systems"
because they can only control a blaze until the FD can get there to put it out.
The FD can hook up to the sprinkler system at street level to those Y shaped pipes outside (called siamese connections because of the dual connect.).
The sprinklers initially draw water from the rooftop tanks, but need to be supplemented by the FD pumpers feeding the siamese below.

The sprinklers in the WTC were immediately knocked out or rendered useless.
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graham67 Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
37. Black Smoke
According to firefighter SO (condensed version):

You know its a real burner when you can't see the fire for the thick black smoke.
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Terrorist ties to WTC Sprinkler System?


February 10, 2002:

Katherine Smith is killed a day before appearing in court
on charges she helped five Muslim terrorists get illegal drivers
licenses. Her car supposedly hit a tree and then caught on fire. The FBI later determined that gasoline was poured on her clothing before she died in an arson fire. A suicide note was found, but prosecutors say they are looking for murder suspects. One of the five Muslims, Sakhera Hammad, was found with a visitor's pass for the WTC, dated September 5, 2001, in his wallet. Hammad claims he was a plumber and worked on the WTC's sprinkler system. Smith was being investigated by the FBI; the five later plead guilty of fraud.

Commercial Appeal, 2/21/02]

The murder of Katherine Smith is one of the biggest 9/11 mysteries in my mind. The coroner who examined her body was later found bound with barbed wire in a parking lot with a bomb tied to his body.

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/060402/new_060402066.shtml
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. That sounds like BS
Why would Katherine Smith's autopsy be conducted by a coroner from Memphis?
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. She was from Memphis Tennnessee
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/02/02/13839917.shtml

"Police began investigating the death as a homicide, though they have not ruled out suicide. The mystery deepened the next day when dental records identified the victim as Katherine Smith, 49, a state driver's license examiner.

Smith had been scheduled to be arraigned that Monday on federal charges of helping five Middle Eastern men from New York obtain fraudulent Tennessee driver's licenses.

One of the men, authorities say, drove from New York to Memphis on Sept. 11 — the day of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. And one of them, at the time of his arrest, was carrying in his wallet a pass to the trade center dated Sept. 5."

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thanks
.
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Where's the f------ sprinkler system?" WTC Transcript of Trapped Victims
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/060402/new_060402066.shtml

NEW YORK — A man on the 92nd floor called the police with what was - though he did not know it - the question of his life.
"We need to know if we need to get out of here, because we know there's an explosion," said the caller, who was in the south tower of the World Trade Center. It was Sept. 11, 2001. A jet had just crashed into the Trade Center's north tower. "Should we stay or should we not?"

The officer on the line asked whether there was smoke on the floor. Told no, he replied: "I would wait 'til further notice."

"All right," the caller said. "Don't evacuate." He then hung up.

Almost all the roughly 600 people in the top floors of the south tower died after a second hijacked airliner crashed into the 80th floor shortly after 9 a.m. The failure to evacuate the building was one of the day's great tragedies.

The exchange between the office worker and the policeman was one of many revealed Thursday when the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned and patrolled the office complex, released transcripts of 260 hours of radio transmissions and telephone calls on 9/11.

The transcript of nearly 2,000 pages includes the words of dozens of victims. Some identified themselves by name. The release comes two weeks before the second anniversary of the terrorist attacks.

Almost 2,800 people died at the Trade Center. The Port Authority lost 47 civilian workers and 37 police officers. Its loss of uniformed personnel was second only to the 343 New York City firefighters.

In addition to explaining why people might not have immediately fled the upper floors of the south tower, the transcript helps explain the largest pocket of death below the floors where the hijacked jets crashed: 14 Port Authority workers who had plenty of time to leave, but did not.

Sixteen co-workers waited 80 minutes before leaving their 64th-floor office in the north tower. During that time, about 7,000 people safely fled the first 91 floors of the building. The tower collapsed 102 minutes after impact.

'Wait for the police'

The transcript shows that Patrick Hoey, 53, a Port Authority executive from Middletown, N.J., called police and was told not to leave.

Hoey: "I'm on the 64th floor. ... I've got about 20 people here with me."

Sergeant: "OK."

Hoey: "What do you suggest? (Loud commotion.) Staying tight?"

Sergeant: "Stand tight. Is there a fire right there where you are?"

Hoey: "No, there's a little bit of smoke on the floor."

Sergeant: "So be careful. Stay near the stairwells and wait for the police to come up."

Hoey: "They will come up, huh? OK. They will check each floor? If you would just report that we're up here."

Sergeant: "I got you."

The 16 workers waited, making phone calls to loved ones. Later, the same sergeant got a call from another officer who said people on the 64th floor were trying to find out what to do. "I think they should hit the stairwells and get the heck out of there," the sergeant said.

It's not clear how far apart the two calls were, or whether the instruction to leave ever made it to the 64th floor.

The 16 workers left at 10:08 a.m. on their own initiative, one of them, Pasquale Buzzelli, later told USA TODAY. They did not know the other tower had collapsed. They were in a stairwell between the 13th and 22nd floors when their building collapsed at 10:28 a.m.

Two of the 16 were pulled from the rubble alive. The other 14 died, including Hoey. He left a wife and four children.

Police received four increasingly desperate requests for help from Christine Olender, a manager at Windows on the World, the restaurant at the top of the north tower.

"We're getting no direction up here," she told the desk officer in her first call. Smoke on the 107th floor had driven everyone to the floor below. And all three escape stairwells were smoky, she said.

During her second call, told that the building was being evacuated and that help was on its way, she said, "But we need to find a safe haven, where the smoke condition isn't bad." By her fourth call, Olender was reporting that the smoke was "rapidly getting worse. ... The fresh air is going down fast! I'm not exaggerating!"

"We are sending the fire department up as soon as possible," Port Authority officer Ray Murray told her. In fact, the jet crash had cut the upper floors off from the rest of the building.

"What are we going to do for air?" she asked. "Can we break a window?"

"You can do whatever you have to to get to the air," Murray replied.

As maintenance and electrical workers talked to each other on their dedicated radio channel, one man trapped in a stairwell on the 103rd floor of the north tower called repeatedly for help.


"Open the stairway door," he called. The radio picked up his labored breathing, and he reported smoke rising. "People stuck in the stairway, open up the goddamn doors." Later he burst out, "WHERE'S THE F------ SPRINKLER SYSTEM?"


Then, his last transmission: "Heat increasing ... need immediate purge" - a reference to the smoke that had filled the stairwell.

On the street below, disbelieving callers reported people plunging to their deaths.

"Yo, I've got dozens of bodies, people just jumping from the top of the building ... in front of 1 World Trade," a male caller said.

"Sir, you have what jumping from buildings?" said the woman who answered the call.

"People," he said. "Bodies are just coming from out of the sky."

At least two wives called to inquire about their husbands. They were unaware that they already were widows. One was Christy Ferer, looking for Neil Levin, executive director of the Port Authority.

Another was Jeannine McIntyre, wife of police officer Donald McIntyre. She saw the first tower fall and immediately called one of his co-workers. "Is my husband in that building that just collapsed?"

Assured that there were no reports of injured Port Authority police, she was unmollified. Her husband had told her what he was doing. "He was going up," she said. "He was going up ... " And she had seen the building collapse.

'Another plane hit!'

The transcripts capture vivid eyewitness accounts, such as a Port Authority officer describing something that "looks like a missile coming out of the wall of the ... second building."

"Just hit the building," another man said over a police channel. "Another plane hit! Another plane just hit the building! Move everyone from Liberty Street!"

The transcripts described an almost biblical array of plagues: flooding in the underground shopping area, smoke on the 22nd floor, people fainting on 44, an elevator stuck near 78, dust and debris everywhere. Indeed, one officer said in his report that God told him to dive between two parked cars to escape debris when the south tower collapsed.

There were wild rumors passed around about missiles fired from the nearby Woolworth Building and a third suicide flight.

One Port Authority policeman identified only as "Tommy" did what many do in a crisis: He called his mother. Their conversation reflected the worry that morning that even worse horrors were about to occur.

After apparently sneaking into a conference room to make the call, Tommy assured his mother he was OK, then warned: "Just stay in. Don't do nothing. This is bad. They got planes all over the radar coming into New York area. They think everything is going to start hitting."

The transcript reveals an argument at the base of the north tower between Port Authority Officer Michael Simons and New York City firefighters over what to do next.

The firefighters wanted to continue upstairs. Civilians, apparently anxious to help, wanted to follow. But Simons said he told them all to leave the building.

"Port Authority, don't argue with me," a firefighter told him. "This is a fire department gig. We're taking over."

Similarly, the Port Authority police had high hopes that the day could be saved. Outside the north tower, an unidentified officer tried to bring order out of chaos. "We are going to move out as one operation!" he said over his radio. "No individual actions! We've got people in there. We are going to get them. I want everybody over here. We are going to do this right."

Different authorities appeared to give different evacuation orders. Shortly after the first jet struck the north tower, the Port Authority's fire command desk in that building got a call from the agency's fire command station in the south tower to discuss evacuation. The caller from the south tower said, "I'm not going to do anything until we get orders from the fire department or somebody."

"OK," replied the north tower fire command.

"OK?" the south tower caller asked. "Because we don't know what it is here."

Although many people described being told to stay put in the south tower after the first crash, one Port Authority sergeant called for evacuating both towers at 8:59 - three minutes before the second airliner hit.

Everywhere, there was the fog of battle. A Port Authority police captain was on the 13th floor of the north tower. After trying to escape and being forced back upstairs by a cloud of smoke, he checked a news Web site on his computer and found a jet had crashed into the building.

"We now believed that the clear liquid that was streaming outside of our windows was not water," he later wrote, "but jet fuel."

Releasing the transcripts

The transcripts were released under an agreement between The New York Times and the Port Authority. The Port Authority is a bi-state public agency that operates bridges, vehicle tunnels and a subway line between New York City and New Jersey, plus the midtown bus terminal and Newark, LaGuardia and Kennedy airports.

Last year, the Times went to court to obtain access to the tapes. The Port Authority agreed to release transcripts on the condition that the newspaper drop its demand for copies of the tapes. The Port Authority later argued that a review of the transcripts indicated their release would violate the privacy of victims' families.

But a New Jersey judge ordered Friday that the transcripts be released. The Port Authority urged the news media to use restraint in reporting details.

Some victims' relatives said they favored releasing the transcripts to shed more light on what went wrong on 9/11. Others said the release opened old wounds.

"People are looking for the horror stories. Not the good things," said Laurie Tietjen, whose brother Ken Tietjen died in the attacks. "A lot of the information there is pretty personal."

Several dozen relatives accepted an offer to read the transcripts before their release, according to the Port Authority. Theresa Riccardelli, whose husband, Francis, died in the attack, declined: "I know the final outcome. My husband didn't get to come home."

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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. We owe it to the victims
to find the answers to these questions.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Agreed
absolutely.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
36. I worked in the Department of Laboratories on 2nd Ave
in the 80's and we had fire drills all the time.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
38. In response to your question about fire drills
I found this report that describes the WTC evacuation procedures. The report claims that 99% of the people below the floors of impact survived.


2.2.1.3 Evacuation

Some occupants of WTC 1 and WTC 2 began to voluntarily evacuate the buildings soon after the first aircraft struck WTC 1. Full evacuation of all occupants below the impact floors in WTC 1 was ordered soon after the second plane hit the south tower (Smith 2002). As indicated by Cauchon (2001a), the overall evacuation of the towers was as much of a success as thought possible, given the overall incident. Cauchon indicates that, between both towers, 99 percent of the people below the floors of impact survived (2001a) and by the time WTC 2 collapsed, the stairways in WTC 1 were observed to be virtually clear of building occupants (Smith 2002). In part this was possible because conditions in the stairways below the impact levels largely remained tenable. However, this may also be a result of physical changes and training programs put into place following the 1993 WTC bombing. Important modifications to building egress made following the 1993 WTC bombing included the placement of photo-luminescent paint on the egress paths to assist in wayfinding (particularly at the stair transfer corridors) and provision of emergency lighting for the stairways. In addition, an evacuation training program was instituted (Masetti 2001).

Shortly before the times of collapse, the stairways were reported as being relatively clear, indicating that occupants who were physically capable and had access to egress routes were able to evacuate from the buildings (Mayblum 2001). People within and above the impact area could not evacuate, simply because the stairways in the impact area had been destroyed.

Some survivors reported that, at about the same time that WTC 2 collapsed, lighting in the stairways of WTC 1 was lost (Mayblum 2001). Also, there were several accounts of water flowing down the stairways and of stairwells becoming slippery beginning at the 10th floor (Labriola 2001).

Anecdotes indicate altruistic behavior was commonly displayed. Some mobility-impaired occupants were carried down many flights of stairs by other occupants. There were also reports of people frequently stepping aside and temporarily stopping their evacuation to let burned and badly injured occupants pass by (Dateline NBC 2001, Hearst 2001). Occupants evacuating from the 91st floor noted that, as they descended to lower levels of the building, traffic was considerably impaired and formed into a slowly moving single-file progression, as evacuees worked their way around firefighters and other emergency responders, who were working their way up the stairways or who were resting from the exertion of the climb (Shark and McIntyre 2001).

http://serendipity.911review.org/wot/wtc_ch2.htm
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avenueb Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. yes
I worked there in 1987-88 and we had fire drills and evacuation procedures.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Is this a misprint or am I not understanding something
Full evacuation of all occupants below the impact floors in WTC 1 was ordered soon after the second plane hit the south tower

Are they saying that people weren't ordered to fully evacuate the first tower under AFTER the second tower was struck?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I'm not sure?
I would assume it's a misprint, since we know that the PA was evacuating both buildings after the 1st plane hit, but then told people in WTC2 that it was okay to back to their offices right before the second plane hit.

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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
40. I know Marvin Bush was on the board of directors of the company
that provided "security" there. Sure looked like a demolition, didn't it?
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