Alcohol Fuel?

[PragMantisT]

With the cost of petroleum rising rapidly, and the trouble involved with procuring more (Iraq, Venezuela, ANWR, OPEC), why is all the attention to alternatives either pie-in-the-sky (Hydrogen fuel cells) or just quick fixes (hybrid autos, electric autos)?

We live in a land that produces more corn than the entire world can consume, and we even pay farmers not to grow more and keep the price artificially inflated.

While I applaud efforts by those who attempt to stem the use of fossil fuels by using hybrid cars, THEY STILL USE OIL. And even though electric cars do not have internal combustion engines, the electricity used by them comes from and outlet on a grid which derives a large part of its power from PETROLEUM. And there is no viable way to use hydrogen fuel cells today. More research must be done to get it working.

To the best of my understanding, one can buy rubbing alcohol in bulk for much less than gasoline and an automobile will work on it with no adjustment whatsoever. Why is alcohol fuel rarely of ever mentioned as an alternative?

Billions in subsidies could be saved. Farmers would be able to make viable wages since the demand for fuel for internal combustion engines is not declining. In a few short years, America could produce enough alcohol to make OPEC and the entire ME a non factor in world fuel. Hell, we could even take the environmental higher ground by saying that we have eliminated emissions, thus helping to turn back the clocks on the environmental dilemma that fossil fuel consumption has created.

I cannot see the down side of alcohol fuel. It uses the same engine as is used not. It is homegrown. We certainly know how to brew alcohol. They make dragsters that run on alcohol that travel at speeds in excess of 200 MPH.

Why are we ignoring a solution that is readily available and which most of us have in our homes right now? Anything has to be better than our current situation. And the current alternatives are half-assed at best.

Any thoughts?

[mouse7]

1. Biodiesel from algae is a much better solution

Lots of info on this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x8783

[BlueEyedSon]

2. It takes a gallon of oil to make a gallon of alcohol

or something close to that. Agriculture is very dependent on petroleum (run machines, fertilizer, pesticides).

The only reason it's cheaper is because of gov't farm subsidies.

[samhonk]

3. Well, sort of...

but petroleum-based agriculture isn't the only way to make corn. The ethanol / biodiesel discussion is an important and useful one, and IMO those two are good short-term aids to enduring a likely near fuel crisis.

I applaud discussion of biofuels. The discussions go better, though, if the participants have read up on them a bit.

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html has some links to useful stuff about biodiesel and ethanol, including technical, political, and large-scale economical facts, and is written by people who've actually tried them.

http://www.veggievan.org/ is a fun page for the practical side of the whole biodiesel thing.

[PragMantisT]

23. Thanks for the links, samhonk. It's a big issue to me. n/t

[samhonk]

25. No prob

and thanks for helping to keep the discussion civilized. Not sure why, but a lot of these threads turn into people flaming one another - which is why I don't usually post to them.

[PragMantisT]

27. Yeah, I see that stuff occasionally

Heck, I want to know more. Just cuz I don't know now, don't mean I don't want to know.

Keep the faith

[mouse7]

4. Take a look at the biodiesel from algae thread

Looks like a much more realistic solution to peak oil problems. It's a doable replacement for all the oil and gas we use.

[gttim]

5. I like it

Read more about it.

I like it, but the oil companies will fight it.

[mouse7]

7. There isn't enough arable land to grow both food and fuel

That's why all these various land crop biomass programs cannot work and the algae for biodiesel programs will work. You grow the algae in otherwise unusable land like desert dry lake beds and the Salton Sea.

Read the article on this link. It's a doable solution to the ENTIRE energy crisis....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x8783

[samhonk]

14. Yes they will

The oil companies will fight it, but as long as their fight doesn't include bribing the government into outlawing the stuff, people can use it. Even then the more daring souls can use it, counting on the fact that the police won't try a sip of your gas tank to see if it gets them drunk. :)

For now the small-scale, DIY approach seems to be the best way. I see where people are coming from when they dismiss ethanol / biodiesel because neither will singlehandedly fix the energy crisis - but they don't have to. I think the most central challenge in alternative energy right now is to get people to stop saying it's impossible; reminding them that multiple solutions, instead of one single source, can work is part of that. In fact I'd feel better if we weren't putting all our eggs in one basket. That, and that we don't have to wait for an entire nationwide distribution system to be set up before we can start using it.

Sorry, I wandered off the point a bit there, not saying you're dismissing ethanol / bio-d - but there are a lot of people who do. (and welcome to DU, too!)

(btw love the journey to forever link - I posted one too, above. Those people seem to be my kind of activist.)

[mouse7]

15. Except that biodiesel from algae CAN singlehandly solve the energy crisis

200000 hectares produce 1 quad of energy (10 Billion gallons). The US uses roughly 14 quads of diesel and gas a year.

I don't repeatedly post a link for no reason. Read the biodiesel from algae thread.

[samhonk]

16. OK,

...the bio-d from algae approach does sound like it can work. I did read the thread, and I'm not opposing you. I haven't read all the linked documentation yet.

Perhaps some other approaches to alternative fuel will come in handy while we're building 2,800,000 hectares' production facilities in the desert. Not that the whole thing needs to be finished all at once - and early parts of it can supply the fuel needed to build the other parts in a sort of bootstrapping process, but the whole thing is a public works project on the scale of the Great Wall of China. Again, not saying it's impossible or not worthwhile, but it isn't going to happen overnight.

On edit: Thanks for pointing the algae thing out. I like to keep on top of what people are doing with biodiesel, and I hadn't heard of this one.

[Gregorian]

6. It's still combustion

I'm a lot more concerned about the rapidly rising carbon dioxide particulates, than the cost of fuel.

Combustion is the problem. We need to stop combusting fuel as a source of power.

[mouse7]

9. There's 50 years of battery research before electric trucks can be used

While battery power might be usable for light vehicles, it is completely unrealistic for transporation of goods.

Read the algae for biodiesal links. I think you're going to be shocked how good an idea it is.

[Gregorian]

12. Fuel cells

It's not combustion. It's a solid state device which converts fuel to heat, water, electricity.
I've thought about how we can transport commercial goods, and quite frankly I think we have bigger problems than finding a way to power things. The combination of population and need for quick delivery are baseline issues that we either deal with, or live with killing the planet.
We can ship in smaller amounts. We can take longer for shipments to arrive at their destinations. But no matter what we do, if the population continues to grow, this entire subject will be a nonissue. Because it'll either be food or water or something else which will have us confounded. Good luck human race. This is why I don't have children. But I can't save the goddamned planet by myself.
Fortunately I can now laugh about this stuff. But the last thirty years of my life have been very difficult. Now I know there's no hope. Not in the near future, at least.

[mouse7]

13. Your solution is to tell people to stop using trucks?

Good freakin' luck.

That is the very definition of a plan that will never pass.

There is no point in attempting to advocate a plan that has 0.00001% of getting support in this country

The biodiesel from algae reduces emmisions from regular diesal fuel by 74%, and is proced in a closed loop carbon cycle, reducing total emissions even further. It requires no real changes in current diesel engine technology. A vehicle can run biodiesel by changing the filters. We can produce all the biodiesel the US needs for all it's current oil use using about 1/10 of the area of the Sonoran Desert to grow algae.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. No, its ok.

The carbon is sequestered when you grow the stuff and released when you burn it. The problem with fossil fuels is that we release the carbon which has been "out of circulation" at such a prodigious rate.

[htuttle]

11. Actually, what is critical is where the carbon came from

If you grow a crop and then burn it, in theory you are only releasing carbon that was fixed when the crop grew. Then when you grow another crop, it removes a similar amount of carbon from the atmosphere (in the form of CO2), and so on.

With oil, you are releasing carbon into the atmosphere (as CO2) that was removed from it millions of years ago -- in essence, making the atmosphere more like it was in the Carboniferous era...sort of.

So there isn't much net gain in CO2 from use of a bio-ethanol crop, whereas there is a significant gain in CO2 released into the atmosphere by burning a fossil fuel.

The key is not what is released when it burns, but rather where the carbon that is released comes from (or when it was originally removed from the atmosphere).

[JM]

8. Two words

Soil depletion. For us to grow enough crops to serve the needs of the fuel hogs we produce, we would deplete the soil in just a few years.

JM

[CO Liberal]

17. They Sell Stuff Here in S. Colorado Called "E-85"

It's 85% ethanol, and 15% gasoline. Many 4-cyl cars and trucks can run on it, if it says so in your owner's manual. My 2002 S-10 can run on it, because I have the 2.2-liter 4. But it costs ten cents a gallon more than regular, so I haven't tried it yet.

[PragMantisT]

26. I've heard of E-85

In the corn belt (Iowa, Nebraska) it costs well under a dollar a gallon.

Question: Is E-85 taxed like petroleum fuels?

[0rganism]

18. Read Dr. Bartlett's "Arithmetic, Population, and Energy"

This paper, from a long time back, explains why even if you can achieve a positive energy balance from ethanol fuels, you'll have a hard time finding enough arable land to use ethanol for a long-term solution to the problem of a growing population accessing finite resources. A guest on the Ed Schultz show from the E85 high-ethanol fuel biz mentioned that 11% of the national corn harvest already goes to ethanol. At some point, alcohol fuel production is going to conflict with food supply.

Arithmetic, Population, and Energy

...In the Prime Time Monthly Magazine (San Francisco, September 1995) we find an article, "Horses Need Corn" by the famous radio news broadcaster Paul Harvey. He emphasizes the opportunity we have to make ethanol from corn grown in the U.S. and then to use the ethanol as a fuel for our cars and trucks: "Today, ethanol production displaces over 43.5 million barrels of imported oil annually, reducing the U.S. trade balance by $645 million. . . For as far ahead as we can see, the only inexhaustible feed for our high horsepower vehicles is corn."

There are two problems with this:

A) The 43.5 million barrels must be compared with the annual consumption of motor gasoline in the U.S. In 1994 we consumed 4.17 billion barrels of motor vehicle gasoline. (Annual Energy Review, 1994, DOE / EIA 0384(94), p. 159) The ethanol production is seen to be approximately 1 % of the annual consumption of gasoline by vehicles in the U.S. So one would have to multiply corn production by a factor of about 100 just to make the numbers match. An increase of this magnitude in the farm acreage devoted to the production of corn for ethanol would have profound negative dietary consequences.

...As the reader ponders the seriousness of the situation and asks, "What will life be like without petroleum?" the thought arises of heating homes electrically or with solar power and of traveling in electric cars. A far more fundamental problem becomes apparent when one recognizes that modern agriculture is based on petroleum-powered machinery and on petroleum-based fertilizers. This is reflected in a definition of modern agriculture: "Modern agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."...

[yellowcanine]

19. problem with alcohol as a fuel

- it is still not price competitive with gasoline - even at $2 a gallon.
- gallon for gallon - it does not hold as much energy as gasoline - which means a gallon will not take you as far, mileage wise - so even if it could be made as cheap as gasoline - it would still "cost" more.

[samhonk]

20. kick

These are important issues, IMO - big problems to face, but finding new fuels is the key to ending oil wars.

[Servo300]

21. We used to have gasoline

that was 10% ethanol -- it wreaked havoc with my car. Engine wouldn't seem to run properly on it.

[NickB79]

22. One problem that has been mentioned with biofuel algae

If you were to place our entire fuel dependency on a few massive algae ponds, what would happen if a parasite or virus dangerous to the algae found its way into the holding ponds? A bacterial contamination may be treatable with antibiotics if caught soon enough (assuming the antibiotics aren't toxic to the algae as well as the bacteria). However, if not caught in time, the entire year's crop of biofuel could be lost. Then you would have to drain and sterilize the entire holding pond system, refill them, reinnoculate with algae and wait another year. A viral infection would be even more dangerous, since no antibiotics will treat a viral infection. And now that the threat of terrorism is on everyone's minds, you would also have to be on guard for possible bioterrorism and deliberate contamination of the algae ponds.

There is also the problem of salt accumulation. Many species of algae can live in very saline environments, but even they have an upper limit on salt concentrations. To replace water lost due to evaporation, you would have to be continuously pumping in water from the Pacific ocean to replenish the holding ponds. Fresh water is already in short supply in the Western US, so ocean water is the only alternative. Over time, salt concentrations could build up to dangerous levels in the ponds, requiring the ponds to be drained and the salt deposits removed.

Both of these situations could probably be rectified with the proper techniques. For example, algae can be genetically engineered to confer better disease resistance, faster growth, and higher salt tolerance. More ponds could be build than are needed, to allow for a cycling of ponds in use while other ponds are being cleaned and the salt deposits removed. I just wanted to point out that there are still potential flaws that need to be addressed with this system. All in all, though, I think it could be an amazing system to at least replace some of the oil we currently use.

[Hammie]

24. Why don't you post the relative costs?

You claim that IPA is less expensive than gasoline but post no data. You imply that IPA comes from corn, which it doesn't. IPA comes from petroleum, specifically the reaction of propylene with water and acid. Ethanol which does come from corn, and other plants, requires 0.7 BTU of fuel for each BTU produced. If ethanol was our primary liquid fuel, 70% of the total output would be consumed just to produce more ethanol. Only 30% of the output would be available for other users.