"anti-zionism is anti-semitism"

[taxidriver]

Steny Hoyer, the Democratic congressional minority Whip, just said this in a speech to an AIPAC convention. So its not just republican neocons who are Israeli tools anymore?

[Atrios]

1. define Zionism

then a conversation can happen.

[RafterMan]

4. People who believe it's important to have a Jewish state

in the historical land of Israel.

Before you ask, Zionists can argue amongst themselves about how much of that land is important.

[anarchy1999]

77. A MUST READ FOR ALL! "THEY DARE TO SPEAK OUT" by Paul Findley

A Congressman from Illinois for twenty-two years.

From Amazon.com

Editorial Reviews

The Washington Post
"Straightforward and valid."


About the Author
Paul Findley was a congressman from 1961 to 1983, representing the state of Illinois and serving as a senior member of the House Middle East Committee. He is the author of Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam, Deliberate Deceptions: Facing the Facts About the U.S.-Israeli Relationship, and Abraham Lincoln: The Crucible of Congress. He lives in Jacksonville, Illinois.


Book Description
The first book to speak out against the pervasive influence of the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) on American politics, policy, and institutions resonates today as never before. With careful documentation and specific case histories, former congressman Paul Findley demonstrates how the Israel lobby helps to shape important aspects of U.S. foreign policy and influences congressional, senatorial, and even presidential elections. Described are the undue influence AIPAC exerts in the Senate and the House and the pressure AIPAC brings to bear on university professors and journalists who seem too sympathetic to Arab and Islamic states and too critical of Israel and its policies. Along with many longtime outspoken critics, new voices speaking out include former President Jimmy Carter, U.S. Representative Cynthia McKinney, Senator Robert Byrd, prominent Arab-American Dr. Ziad Asali, Rabbi Michael Lerner, and journalist Charles Reese. In addition, the lack of open debate among politicians with regard to the U.S. policy in the Middle East is lamented, and AIPAC is blamed in part for this censorship. Connections are drawn between America's unconditional support of Israel and the raging anti-American passions around the world-and ultimately the tragic events of 9/11.


a page from the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/155652482X/ref=sib_dp_rdr/104-8622869-9748754#reader-page

[redqueen]

122. Thanks for that post!

:)

[Lisa0825]

2. *ducking*

:scared:

[No2W2004]

3. What about

the Jews who are not Zionist?

[Bombtrack]

7. There is a difference between not being a zionist persay and being

an "anti-Zionist".

[No2W2004]

10. My in-laws are Jewish

and do believe in Israel, but, in conversations with them, they think the Zionist movement is the wrong way of going about it because the Zionist are out to remove the Palestinians by any means.

[Bombtrack]

13. That right there seems like anti-zionist propaganda

Zionists are not just likudniks. Broadly, they are simply jews who want to sustain Israel and not have it be destroyed, which has nothing to do with "removing the Palestinians by any means necessary". Zionists tend to want to protect themselves from Palestinians because the latter tend to blow up the former quite often.

Of course their are shitty Zionists. Just like there are allot of shitty non-Zionists, and probably more shitty anti-Zionists.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No2W2004]

29. After a visit to encyclopedia land......

We have

Zionism - Zionism sees itself as the modern form of a millennial-old dream of Jewish people to rebuild a Jewish state in the land of Israel

Anti-Zionism - People who are against the goals of Zionism. Many Hasidic Jews and other Orthodox Jews believed that any attempt to return to Israel, as a nation, before the coming of the messiah was sacrilegious. At one time the Lubavitcher Rebbes were anti-Zionist

Non-Zionism - neutrality towards Zionism

Post-Zionism - Post-Zionists tend to be secular, and believe that Israel as a nation should be separated from Judaism.

In my conversations with my inlaws, they would refer to Meir Kahane and how his organization wanted Zionist domination in Israel. It has since been outlawed by the Israeli government under anti-terrorism laws. Also, until 1999, the UN considered the Zionist as a "form of racism and racial discrimination" (UN resolution 3379)

So, My original understanding of the term was flawed, and now I see how many layers there are to the word.

[starroute]

107. "Millenial-old dream . . . to rebuild a Jewish state" is nonsense

A thousand years ago, the idea of a nation-state had not even been imagined.

Zionism is purely and completely an offshoot of 19th century nationalism. When every small, disenfranchised ethnic group grabbed hold of the idea that the solution to all their problems was to have a nation-state of their own, it naturally occurred to some people that this might be a solution for the Jews as well.

However, nationalism as an ideology has failed dismally. It commonly leads to increased hatred and bloodshed rather than removing their causes. And becoming a nation-state does not automatically make a people powerful and prosperous.

Israel is no exception. It is not economically viable -- without continuing massive US aid, it would not be able to sustain itself. And it has produced a Balkanization of the area which will be a cause of strife for generations to come.

Zionism has been like the Iraq War, in that its stated goals have kept changing as it fails to accomplish them. First it was the hope of setting up a Jewish state that would be simply one more among the nations of the world. When that didn't go quite as planned, the idea changed to providing a bolthole in case of a worldwide resurgence of virulent anti-Semitism.

Now that Israel is not only the least safe place in the world to be a Jew today, but also the cause of increased anti-Semitism elsewhere, that idea has failed as well. So we're left with an Iraq-like combination of vague idealism and the sense that it's essential to keep pushing forward into disaster because there's no easy way to back out.

That is not a good recipe no matter who applies it.

[Gimel]

171. Nationhood

You are discussing a modern view of nations. However, the Jewish people's return to Israel is a basic tenet of the religion that pre-dates Christianity.

[Gimel]

184. Safety

Safety is returning to the Jewish street in Israel today. Thanks to the Separation fence/wall, and the IDF actions.

[Gimel]

183. Please note

the citation says "At one time the Lubavitcher Rebbes were anti-Zionist".

This debunks the charge for the Hasidim.

[Djinn]

40. Sorry Bombtrack

But Zionists wish to establish and maintain a Jewish state - that wasn't possible with a majority non Jewish population - hence the Nakba.

It can not be maintained without giving Jews rights that non Jews do not have - not a very progressive idea from where I stand.

As for "Zionists tend to want to protect themselves from Palestinians because the latter tend to blow up the former quite often." well that's just a ridiculous statement even the IDF admits that FAR more Palestinians than Israeli's have died in the violnce between the two over the last 50 years.

[Jim Sagle]

87. Not ridiculous at all. Palestinians die BECAUSE they try to blow up

Israelis.

[rebellious woman]

114. opposites attract so they say

[The Stranger]

120. Actually, many Palestinians die because they live on the land.

In fact, most of the Palestinians who have died have died for this reason.

[The Stranger]

119. Your post sounded reasonable, until this . . .

Zionists tend to want to protect themselves from Palestinians because the latter tend to blow up the former quite often.

Actually, there are many Zionists who tend to blow up Palestinians quite often. It is going on right now. Many also do, in fact, want to "transfer" the Palestinians from the Palestinians' land.

[Bombtrack]

185. Israel has clear policy of not targeting innocents.Palestinian terrorists

on the other hand have a routine and almost explicit policy of targeting civilian men, women, and children simply for being Israeli jews, and their expressed goal is the destruction of the state of Israel.

Murderers and their accomplises are the Palestinians Israeli's target, and the innocent killed by them is the exception to the exception to the exception to the rule and almost entirely a result of accident or negligence, NOT desire.

[aquart]

17. So their definition of "Zionist" would be....mass murderers?

It's very hard to sustain a discussion with shifting definitions.

[bloom]

8. There could also be Zionists who aren't Jews

Somebody might think it is anti-semetic to be against them?!?

[aquart]

15. Excellent nitpick.

I'm not buying it, because Zionist is a code word and pretending it isn't is either disingenuous or painfully stupid.

Nonetheless, good work.

[Malikshah]

112. It's not a nitpick

Some of the most ardent Zionists in the US prior to the establishment of the state of Israel were non-jewish.

Prior to commenting, read a bit of history.

[Bombtrack]

19. Yeah, like Me. I am a post-Zionist secularist. But it's completely idiotic

to ignore the fact that the anti-Zionist chic the that part of left has adopted is steeped in connection and cozying up to the broad fringe which brings the far right together with it in virulant propaganda directed towards Israel and jews, and is completley lacking in anything close to the same standard for the Palestinians and Muslim world in general.

[mouse7]

25. Read post #24 n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

172. can't

got whacked

:-)

[cushla_machree]

123. chic?

"anti-Zionist chic the that part of left has adopted "

Who in thier right mind would support the Israelis as they shoot missles into civilian areas and bull doze hundreds of homes?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3725161.stm

The Israeli military destroyed almost 100 houses in the camp last week, leaving 1,100 people homeless, before being stopped by a temporary court injunction.

And Ahmad Mughayer, 13, and his sister Asma, 16, were shot dead as they stood on the roof of their house. Both were hit in the head as they hung out washing, relatives said.

If its anti-semetic to be horrified by what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, then i guess that makes me anti-semetic. I can't with good concious condone what looks like to me to be an almost ethic cleansing of the Palestinian people out of their homes for a country that can hardly be considered a democracy in the first place.

[sir_captain]

127. your argument

is an example of exactly what is wrong with the israeli/palestinian question--no objectivity. one could ask the opposite question just as easily--who in their right mind would support a people whose political groups target innocent men, women and children! for murder? who indoctrinate their children to hate an entire group of people?

and that argument would be equally as one-sided, unproductive, and wrong-headed as yours.

the idea that what is going on over there is ethnic cleansing is really ridiculous and downright offensive. Go study what happened during the Holocaust, or in Bosnia or Rwanda before you make such claims.

[cushla_machree]

136. really?

who in their right mind would support a people whose political groups target innocent men, women and children! for murder?

I never said i supported their actions over that of the Israeli's. But is is rather interesting to note that evey death of an israeli is due to a terrorist while every death of a Palestinian is in 'self defense.' I would surmise that both sides have commited equally atrocious crimes.

What is it going to take for me to be objective? Do i need to be jewish to be able to weigh into this debate? Cause otherwise it seems like no matter how you present your debate, if you don't agree with Israel you are anti-semetic.

as for ethnic cleansing: NOUN: The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

is it ridiculous? What else would you call the desire to systematically remove the palestinians from their homes? It appears as if the hopes have been from the begining to make the situation so bad for them that they emigrate out to surrounding arab countries.

What is the point of the settlements? to take over the land and force them out.

[sir_captain]

137. We don't totally disagree

"I never said i supported their actions over that of the Israeli's. But is is rather interesting to note that evey death of an israeli is due to a terrorist while every death of a Palestinian is in 'self defense.' I would surmise that both sides have commited equally atrocious crimes."

Yeah, there we agree. I was just framing the argument from the other direction to show you how one-sided your original statement was.

"What is it going to take for me to be objective? Do i need to be jewish to be able to weigh into this debate? Cause otherwise it seems like no matter how you present your debate, if you don't agree with Israel you are anti-semetic."

Absolutely not true, and if you look at my other posts in this thread you will see that. I agree with most of your criticisms of Israel. The thing that bothers me is the disproportionate criticism of Israel as compared to its neighbors--logically, I just don't understand this.

I agree with you about the settlements--I have nothing good to say about them and they should be made illegal.

[LeahMira]

130. Turn it around...

Who in thier right mind would support the Israelis as they shoot missles into civilian areas and bull doze hundreds of homes?

Would you think that citizens of the U.S. should leave this land and maybe return to the country of their ancestors' origins because the government of this nation has directed some military types to shoot civilians and destroy homes in Iraq?

Zionism has to do with the right of the Jewish people to live in Israel and to have Israel recognized as their homeland. The ideals that Israel espouses are the biblical ideals of justice and peace.

We in the U.S. also have high ideals that are set out in our founding documents. We sometimes fail to live up to those ideals, but that doesn't mean that we must forfeit our nationhood. In the same way, it is possible to support the right of the State of Israel to exist while at the same time being less than supportive of the specific things that happen there.

In fact, if you visit Israel, you will be safer, and will feel safer than you would in most cities in the U.S., even with the threats that exist... and that goes even if you aren't Jewish!

[cushla_machree]

134. yeah but conversely

Zionism has to do with the right of the Jewish people to live in Israel and to have Israel recognized as their homeland

where does this right come from? Because the bible says its theirs?
I don't have a "right" to return to my ancestors land - because OTHER people live their now. In the end it doesn't matter to me who owns the land, sure the Israelis who legitimately obtained their land have a 'right' to be there, but if your going to force people out of their homes, then i wonder what the suprise is when they turn around and fight back (and yes i am digusted with palestinian suicide bombers)

[LeahMira]

209. Nope.

where does this right come from? Because the bible says its theirs?

It comes from the fact that under the chairmanship of Dr. H. V. Evatt, the Australian Minister for External Affairs, the UN Special Committee recommended the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, together with a neighboring independent Arab State, and this was endorsed by the United Nations General Assembly in November 1947. .... Resolution #181, calling for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state, was passed on May 14 1948.
http://www.roadtopeace.org/history/zionism/Israel_statehood.html

So, it's not because the Bible says so, but because the United Nations says so, and most of the nations of the world ratified that decision.


but if your going to force people out of their homes, then i wonder what the suprise is when they turn around and fight back

There's justification for saying that some Israelis forced some Palestinians out of their homes, but there's also the fact that the Arab nations told Palestinians to sit tight because they would attack and destroy Israel asap. Immediately following the ratification of Resolution #181, the very next day in fact, the armies of Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Trans-Jordon invaded Palestine.

The problems, as I see them, are that first of all, the Palestinian leaders have made no plans for statehood, and secondly, the Arab nations in the region have done nothing positive to assist the Palestinians.

[aquart]

16. Find one.

Again, depending on how you define "zionist."

[bigbillhaywood]

22. I've met plenty. In fact, a good proportion of people I've met in the

Palestinian liberation movement in the US are Jewish anti-Zionists. Most American Jews may be Zionist, but many are not-- a fact that the Zionists would rather keep people in the dark about. As long as Israel is portrayed to be the collective identity of the Jewish people (rather than a nation state), and Jews as monolitichally Zionist, it's easy for Zionists to paint any criticism as Israel from a goy as being "anti-Semitic". Of course, if it comes from another Jew, they are a "self-hater".

[LeahMira]

135. It gets back to definitions...

I'm an American Jew, and I support an independent Palestinian state... alongside an independent Jewish state.

You are right in saying that, to a certain extent, Jewish self-esteem in the U.S. rises and falls with the successes and failures of the state of Israel. But isn't that sort of natural? After all, Americans who travel abroad are rightfully concerned when our government is acting less than noble.

Jews are only about 2% of the population in this country. We are not always made to feel especially welcome here when our leaders make efforts to get some respect for our beliefs. I've read that when a Jewish group objected to a Christmas creche that was set up at a fire station (which is public property), some others in the community "reminded" the Jews that this country welcomed them as its "guests" when they had no place else to go, and that the Jews should gratefully respect the religion of the majority. When Mel Gibson was putting out his film and Jewish leaders objected to the way that Jews were portrayed in that film, the Jewish people were told that the Christian Bible (which is apparently inerrant historic truth) must be depicted as is, without question. I guess the Christian Bible is not our Bible, so we have to accept what Christians say about it without comment, eh?

Sometimes, it's comforting just to know that there is a place where Jews can go and we won't have to put up with this stuff. So it happens that when non-Jews criticize Israel, some Jews take offense at that, although we certainly do argue among ourselves about Israeli politics and policy.

America is where I happen to live, but Israel is home.

[Djinn]

48. Doesn't matter HOW you define it there are many

Hi aquart I'm ANTI-ZIONIST - will that satisfy? after all you said one - but for your info many many Jews (particularly orthodox religious ones - Zionism being a secular notion NOT a religious one - but also atheists and more "relaxed" religious Jews) are not only "anti-Zionist" but many do not beleive the state of Israel is legitimate.

NETUREI KARTA
JEWS NOT ZIONISTS
JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM

[Jim Sagle]

88. Those are the self-hting fringe. Fuck'm.

[minkyboodle]

131. zzzzzz

get a new routine

[Jim Sagle]

139. I'll be here all week.

[minkyboodle]

163. I know.. don't forget to tip your waitress...

[Djinn]

174. Yep that's right

and I'm a self hater as well - get a new line Jim the "self hater" thing is starting to stink.

[Jim Sagle]

177. If you can't stand the stench, stay out of the kitchen. Or something.

[Djinn]

222. and if you can't make a more cogent argument than

XYZ Rawwwwwwwwwwwkkkkkkkkks

or

YEEAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

or

stay out of the kitchen

p'raps your understanding of the issues is a little lacking

[LeahMira]

213. There's a difference...

I'm a self hater as well


There's a difference between those who disagree with Sharon's policies and those who think that the Jewish people don't have a right to a state.

I think that the Jewish people are indeed a distinct people, with their own culture and traditions that trace back through thousands of years. As such, they are entitled to a place of their own on the earth just as the French or the Chinese are entitled to a homeland.

While it's true that not every People have a homeland, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have one.

At the same time, I think Sharon's actions are terribly detrimental to the good of the Jewish people. Still, the Israelis have a right to be wrong sometimes, just as Americans are wrong in what they are doing under the Bush administration, and just as the Germans were wrong under Hitler. The world can certainly deal with injustice, but I hope that just as the Germans were allowed to keep their homeland, and just as we would not want to be deprived of our homeland, so the Israelis should keep their homeland.

I don't understand why you would think otherwise.

In fact, the U.S. came into existence by pushing the American Indians off their land and by deliberate efforts to completely exterminate them. Everyone who came from Europe or elsewhere to this land had already a homeland. In many ways, we have far less right to occupy this land than the Israelis have to live where they do.

[Jim Sagle]

224. Thank you.

[Djinn]

226. I don't actually think any race/ethnicity/religion

is "entitled" to a homeland - the history of human migration makes that a bit impossible.

I have never advocated the Jews leaving Israel so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I think the Israeli's shouldn't "keep their homeland."

I think that land should be democratic and have equal rights for ALL that live under the rule of the government.

As for the Sharon thing - agree he's a monster - but many liberals seem to delude themselves into thinking that everything is hunky dory in the OT under an Israeli Labor Government - it's a total myth

[PeaceForever]

35. That's what I was going to ask

New York's Hassidic Jewish community, for instance, is mostly anti-Zionist.

[Jim Sagle]

101. No WAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PeaceForever]

116. They believe that Israel as a state goes against G-d's will . . .

. . . because the Messiah has not yet appeared.

In fact, it's also interesting that a lot of the ultra-Orthodox in Israel itself oppose the existence of the state of Israel.

The Jewish community is a lot more complex than people stereotype it to be.

[Gimel]

170. Hasidic community

This is not the view of the Hasidic community in Israel. Many are members or veterans of the IDF. It is the isolated opinion of one group that you are discussing, not all Hasidim. By the way, I live in an Hasidic community.

The Ultra-orthodox do not "oppose the existence of the state of Israel".

[PeaceForever]

196. I didn't mean to imply that it was more than a minority

Just making the point that opposition to Zionism isn't necessarily the same thing as anti-Semitism, since there are some anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semitic.

[elfwitch]

81. Reform Judaism is not necessarily zionist...

It really depends on what type of Jew you are talking about.
Reform = not so very Zionist
Conservative = goes either way
Orthodox = mostly Zionist

You can no more lump all Jews together than you can lump all Christians. If that were true then I could sit here and say that ALL Christians are just as bad as the Southern Baptists.

[Darranar]

138. That doesn't work...

there is a strong anti-Zionist orthodox movement mainly for religious reasons.

And there is a strong pro-Likud base among secular Jews.

I agree with the last part though. Viewpoints on Zionism and Israeli policy vary greatly among Jews.

[Bombtrack]

5. How does that make him an Israeli tool?

There's just as much critism that the "anti-Zionist" movement deserves as Israel does.

It's really disturbing how freely alot of those people throw around words like evil, facsist, cabal, and people who clearly are anti-semites now substitute Zionist in there screeds like Ernst Zundel and the Saudi's.

[aquart]

18. Yes. Pretending they make a distinction between good Jews and bad.

I simply adore that. And it's so kind of them, not to lump us all together the way the Nazis did.

I'm so grateful.

[Djinn]

52. WHO'S lumping everyone together

YOU seem to extol the idea that Zionist ARE Jews and Jews ARE Zionists. YOU seem to be the one having difficulty in accepting that Israel does NOT speak for all of us.

Who are the "they" you speak of anyway - anyone who doesn't beleive in Zionism? if so you're referring to many VICTIMS of the Holocaust and their descendants so maybe just maybe you could THINK about what you're saying it before you smugly insult a lot of people by insinuating a connection between anyone who hasn't swallowed the Zionism = Jewish MYTH and Nazi's :mad:

[mouse7]

26. Read post #24 n/t

[corporatewhore]

6. when did you think the dems werent ?

[taxidriver]

11. i was unaware

that this was yet another instance of indifference between repubs and dems.

[rumguy]

9. Israeli tool?

huh?

You're going way out on a limb there...

try again...

[keithyboy]

12. Whoring for money and votes.

A lot of Dems are no better than than the Republicans when it come to selling their souls for political gain.

[Jim Sagle]

90. Or maybe they're doing the right thing.

[Wonk]

14. Increasingly, Thoughtful American Jews Are Re-Thinking Zionism - WRMEA

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May_2004/0405067.html

Hoyer should read that, imho.

[aquart]

21. Really. Name two.

I remember my mother telling me they were able to kill us because we did not have a nation to speak for us.

I will always remember that.

But, tell me, where should the Israelis go, when you great and fair-minded people (liberals CAN'T be anti-semitic, they're too good and pure)hand the Arabs all the land they consider themselves entitled to? Entitled to kill for?

Get back to me.

[bigbillhaywood]

27. Noam Chomsky and Steve Silverstein (one of my buddies)

Who says the Israelis have to go anywhere? Some might have to leave their homes if right of return for the 47-48 refugees was granted, but why can't the Jews live there, too? Yassir Arafat has never called for expulsion of the Jews except from territory seized from Palestinians. Jews could still live in territory which was historically theirs or legally purchased from Palestinian families.

By the way, I think a two state solution that included Israeli monetary reparations for refugees would put the issue to rest for most Palestinians. But Israel won't give up all thier settlements, East Jerusalem, and won't even talk about the 47 refugees.

[Wonk]

33. Rabbi Gerold Serotta, Rabbi Sidney Schwartz & many more. Read the article.

nt

[lefador]

41. Re: "Really. Name two."

Just because your mother told you that doesn't make it necessarily true.

Millions of gentile Poles were decimated in the holocaust, and these Poles had a nation that spook, and fought for them. Reducing the reasons of the holocaust to a simple black and white straw man that can be used as a justification for anything is rather dangerous IMHO.

There is a growing lack of appreciation for "precision" in modern American culture, or at least when dealing with the English language and the American obsession with classifying things into neat "boxes" can lead to the misuse of terms. This is why a most of the people who use the term "Zionist" as a bad thing do not even know what it means, just like the people who throw the term "anti-Semite" around do not know what a Semite really is (hint, current Palestinians are actually Semites).

Zionist by itself is a morally neutral term (believe it or not Nazi too is a morally neutral term). There have been bad and good Zionist, and not all Zionist are Jews in the same sense that not all Jews are Zionist.

However make no mistake just because some people do not agree with some of the current policies from the state of Israel does not mean that the Israelis (not all Israeli people are Jews, and I do not agree that people are entitled a piece of land or rights just because they belong to a specific religion) are not entitled to a state. Trying to imply that criticism of Israel equals advocating the extermination of the Jews is just silly, stupid, ignorant and just plain sad.

The main problem here is how to deal with a situation in which people feel entitled to own a piece of land (in this case there are not the Arabs as you claimed) versus the people who were inhabiting the land until recently. I just do not have a clear answer but I see this as another proof that religion most of the time does not lead to a good outcome.

[Djinn]

62. Bouquets for lefador

Millions of gentile Poles were decimated in the holocaust, and these Poles had a nation that spoke, and fought for them. Reducing the reasons of the holocaust to a simple black and white straw man that can be used as a justification for anything is rather dangerous IMHO.

Well said (and welcome to DU) I was meaning to mention this “if Israel had existed the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened” furphy but my blood is beginning to boil to much.

Anyway – great post for your #1

[cushla_machree]

125. do people really say that?

"if Israel had existed the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened”"


Its kinda of naive to think that having a country will make all your problems go away. Maybe if the gypsies had had their own country, it wouldn't have happened to them either. Maybe we can set up the country of 'roma' for them. we can uproot some people in india let them all go back to their original homeland.

[minkyboodle]

133. welcome to DU Lefador

[bigbillhaywood]

50. Your story reminds me of another one, I once had a political

acquaintance some time ago that told me this story:

Ted came from a good Jewish family. At some point during Ted's political awakening, he discovered the horrible abuses that the Israelis committed against the Palestinians. He went home for Thanksgiving and proceeded to list all the Israeli atrocities he had learned about to his parents. They shook their heads and said "Jews don't do that". Conversation over.

No group is above oppressing another. No nation-state either.

[Djinn]

56. Right before it was "name one"

now it's name two - interesting debating technique - if we keep listing names will you eventually get up "OK name 750,000,000"

I don't expect Israeli's to GO anywhere - where do YOU expect the Palestinians who actually HAVE been removed from their land to go? where do you expect those who are AS WE TYPE being pushed from lands that the Israeli's want to build a fence on?

I'd also point out that BY DEFINITION liberals can't be anti-semitic, Democrats can sure, - but Anti-Zionist does not equal anti-semitic.

I'm getting really tired of telling smug know-nothing "I can speak for everyone" people on this board when this topic comes up - if we were having this conversation face to face you'd have a black eye for calling me anti-semitic by now. Mods feel free to delete this I'm not going to - I haven't threatened anyone (by the way I'm a 5 foot 3, 48kg chick - don't know if that makes the comment less aggro sounding?) - just making the point that were you to meet a fellow Jew and insist that they MUST be anti-semitic (and make veiled references to Nazi's) you might well get a violent response.

Thanks for the concern sir_captain & bigbillhaywood but if aquart can call me an anti-semite then I should be able to tell him what I think - I'm really really over censoring myself when speaking to people who insist that me and my entire family (with the SINGULAR exception of one mad old great aunt) are either anti-semites or even do not exist at all. I'm tired of pointing out that the pro-Israel, pro-Zionist perspective isn't the only REAL Jewish one and that the views of the rest of us are just as valid.

This isn't an abnormal or controversial view ANYWHERE except in the US - even in Israel you'll find more people willing to speak about teh problems with Zionism

[sir_captain]

59. Everyone should cool down

I don't think anyone has called anyone else anti-semitic--and if they have, it's against the rules. But your last bit is overboard too, Djinn.

[bigbillhaywood]

61. I agree Djinn, and I'm on your side. You should edit the

"if I met you on the street stuff". Trust me, I've done it before out of anger myself, but it could get you in trouble and it doesn't help prove your point, which was a good one until you got to that part.

[bigbillhaywood]

71. No prob, Djinn, I agree with most of your points. It's just I get angry

too, and after having been in too many fights and other bad situations that have gotten me into deep shit, I try to cool myself down when I get heated (even on an anonymous message board), and I try to advise others to do the same (unless I don't like them, then I egg them on). Anyway, catch ya later.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elfwitch]

82. Name many...

Rabbi Samuel Stahl - Temple Beth El San Antonio
Rabbi Barry Block- Temple Beth El San Antonio
Rabbi Allison Bergman-Vann - Temple Beth El San Antonio
Rabbi David Lyon - Temple Shalom Dallas
Rabbi Robert Haas - Temple Shalom Dallas
Rabbi Kenneth Roseman - Temple Shalom Dallas

And these are just the rabbis I have had the good fortune to be taught by.

[ThatPoetGuy]

84. Thank you Aquart.

I love DU, and yet I'm regularly disturbed by the faction that sees Israel as responsible for all the world's ills; I find it terrifying, to be honest. Such a one-dimensional, nuanceless view coming from the left, rife with nonsensical racist conspiracies, can only lead to suffering. We are liberals; we're supposed to be the good guys.

On the right, people roll their eyes when they get accused of racism; on the left, people roll their eyes when they get accused of anti-semitism. It's scary that people can get so immunized that they reflexively roll their eyes rather than take a moment and ponder the reality.

[bigbillhaywood]

141. Please cite "nonsensical racist conspiracies" on this thread.

Some of us roll our eyes at the "anti-Semitism" label because criticism of Israeli imperialism, occupation, oppression and aggression, and advocacy for Palestinian rights does not necessarily equal anti-Semitism. No more than criticism of British imperialism, occupation, oppression and aggression, and advocacy for Catholics rights in Northern Ireland makes one anti-Protestant. Or opposition to South African apartheid makes one an anti-white Communist.

Are there anti-Semites who criticize Israel-- sure, I bet there are plenty. But as certain as I am that there are many anti-Muslim bigots who criticize Saudi Arabia or Iran, I don't think that criticism of these nation-states necessarily makes one anti-Muslim.

[ThatPoetGuy]

155. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was on this thread

And I'm not even talking about criticism of Israel, really. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so multidimensional that I've never even heard anyone from either side make an argument that felt anything like the truth. That said, I think Mr. Sharon is a monster who needs to go.

I'm referring to a number of domestic conspiracy theories that crop up here (at DU, not this thread) regularly, which always seem to be saying that Israelis are scheming to blow up US government buildings or some such.

I wouldn't tolerate such racist paranoia about any class of people, especially as baseless speculation is bound to have repercussions on innocent people.

But again, I want to say, what angers me is the conspiracy theories that target foreigners in our midst, a kind of xenophobia that I wish were less prevalent at DU; criticize the actions of Israel and its despicable leader all you want, I'm not opposing you.

[bigbillhaywood]

156. Okay. Works for me. I'm not a big fan of the tinfoilers either. nt

[rman]

105. naming a dozen organisations and then some:

Jewish anti-Zionist groups

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

"Jews Not Zionists is spreading the word...
that Zionism and the State of Israel
is in complete contradiction
to the teachings of the Torah."

A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist groups:

* Bene Yoel
* Breslov
* Brisk
* Hazon Ish
* Kaschau
* Krasna
* Kretcheniff
* Malochim
* Munkacs
* Neturei Karta
* Nitra
* Pupa
* Satmar
* Skullene
* Slonim (Weinberg)
* Toldoth Aharon
* Toldoth Avrohom Yitzchok
* Tosh
* Wiznitz Hassidic sect based in Monsey, NY


A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist organizations:

* Edah HaCharedith lekol Makhelot Ha'Ashkenazim
* Rabbinical High Court for all Ashkenazic communities, Jerusalem
* Edah HaCharedith HaSefaradit, Sefaradic Rabbinical High Court, Jerusalem
* Hisachduth HaRabbonim DeArtzos HaBris VeKanada - Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada (CRC)
* Yeshivath Ahavath Shalom


A partial listing of some well-known contemporary anti-Zionist Orthodox rabbis:

* HaGaon Rav Koppelman - Dean, Talmudical Academy, Lucerne
* HaGaon Reb Avruhom Leitner, Spiritual Leader, Chief Rabbi and Dean of Congregation and Yeshivah Binyan Duvid, Brooklyn, NY
* HaGaon Reb Yecheskel Roth, formerly Chief Rabbi of Karlesberg, and currently Chief Rabbi of Cong. Yirei Hashem and Dean of the esteemed Rabbinical Judicial Academy for the Advanced, Beth Midrash Le'Horu'eh, Brooklyn NY (Rabbi Roth is (unofficially, however) considered by many as Chief Rabbi and Rabbinic Judge of Boro Park, Brooklyn


A partial listing of some well-known contemporary anti-Zionist Hassidic Leaders:

* the Bobover Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Naftali Halberstam, leader of the international Bobov Hassidic movement based in Brooklyn, NY
* the Toldos Aharon Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Duvid Kohn
* the Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Shmuel Yaakov Kohn
* the Munkatcher Rav Shlit"a - Grand Rabbi Moshe Leib Rabinowitz, leader of the international Munkacs Hassidic movement based in Brooklyn NY


A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox anti-Zionist rabbis of past generations:

* His Holiness Sidna Baba Sali - ADMoR HaHaham Hakadosh Rabi Yisrael Abu Hasera
* Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman
* the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb Cahyim Soloveitchik
* the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb VelvelSoloveitchik
* the Brisker Rav, Hagaon Reb Moshe Yehudah Leib Diskin
* the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, HaGaon Reb Yoseph Chayim Sonnenfeld

[bigbillhaywood]

142. All self-haters, race traitors. Why else would they criticize Israel,

they could not possibly have legitimate reasons, and even if they do I will not listen. I will plug my ears and shout "anti-Semite"! and "self hater"! at the top of my lungs, because otherwise I might get introspective and start to realize everything I've been taught to believe is wrong and a lie.

[sir_captain]

145. hey there bill

good to see you again ;-)

don't you think you're going too far in the other direction? the truth undoubtedly lies somewhere in the middle. clearly there are legitimate reasons to criticize israel, and clearly, not everything that zionists have been taught is "wrong and a lie" you know?

[bigbillhaywood]

149. What's up sir_captain! I was exaggerating to make a point, but

I do believe there are many things Zionists have been taught that are "wrong and a lie", but then again I think that applies to a lot of people, not just Zionists. A lot of shit I was taught was "wrong and a lie"-- we live in a fucked-up society that seeks to indoctrinate us to obey the powers that be and never question our system. The pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian indoctrination in the media and from the government is just one, small part of a web of lies that entangles our society. I'm not talking conspiracy theory here, just the social control through culture, media, and education that our hierarchical system needs to ensure its own survival.

[sir_captain]

152. lord knows i agree with you about general media corruption

though i think both sides of this debate can find media bias. i've never heard peter jennings, for instance, say a kind word about the Israelis. Maybe it's because he dated most of the Palestinian diplomatic core? ;-)

[bigbillhaywood]

159. Well, I disagree, but check this website out:

www.electronicintifada.net They concentrate on counterspinning pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian media bias.

Also compare descriptions of Palestinian and Israeli victims. Israeli terror victims are humanized, given faces, their stories told, their families interviewed. Whenever an Israeli rocket hits Palestinian civilians (even children), you're lucky to get more than this in the newspapers: "7 Palestinians killed by Israeli rocket".

The other thing I find interesting is sometimes when organizations such as Tanzim, PFLP, DFLP, etc. (non-Islamist orgs.) launch bombings or suicide attacks against soldiers or police in Israel, the news report will simply state "5 Israelis killed in Palestinian terror attack" Leading you to believe those killed were innocent civilians. I've encountered this a couple of times, and only through research found out the 5 people killed were uniformed IDF Reservists at a bus stop. On the other side of that coin, the news is meticulous in pointing out when Israeli attacks are targeted against Palestinian "militants", "gunmen", "terrorists" or "terror suspects"

Also rarely mentioned in reports on attacks on Jewish settlers is that most of the male settlers at least, are armed, and most are religious fanatics. Jewish settlers often go on pogroms of Palestinian villages and the IDF does little to nothing to stop them. When's the last time you read about that?

[sir_captain]

161. Ok

how about the fact that suicide bombers are still often referred to as "martyrs?"

Here's some stuff from the other side:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6093
http://users.starpower.net/mk26/id23.htm

Personally, I think both sides have some merit to their claims

[sir_captain]

32. Man, that's an amazingly racist headline

[Wonk]

43. Referring to a group made up of hundreds of Rabbis as Jews is racist?

:shrug:

Would referring to a group made up of hundreds of Protestant and Catholic Priests as Christians be racist, in your opinion?

[sir_captain]

44. Yes, I think referring to the Jews

who are "rethinking" zionism as the "thoughtful" Jews is pretty awful. I didn't say the group was racist, just the headline.

Your question contains no context, so there is no way for me to actually answer it.

[bigbillhaywood]

20. The Dems have always been in AIPAC's pocket. Hating Arabs,

particularly Palestinians, has always been bipartisan policy-- it's as American as apple pie! (To paraphrase brother H. Rap Brown).

[aquart]

23. HATING Arabs?

Which Arabs? All Arabs?

Let me see: liberals support the Palestinians but the Democrats hate Arabs.

So Democrats are NOT liberals? Or Palestinians are not Arabs?

I love what crawls out from under rocks after midnight at DU.

[bigbillhaywood]

30. Hey, why don't you try growing up Arab-American in this country like I

did and tell me there is not endemic, institutional racism in this country against Arabs. Don't fool yourself, the Dems give us a little more of a break, but not much. We are the most hated group in this country and probably could have claimed that title even before 9/11.

How would you feel if every movie you saw every single Jewish character was at worst a hook-nosed villanous banker or at best a stingy old miser? Well, that's what it's like for us. Every Arab character is a terrorist, or at best a cab driver. You never see us on the news except when we are being villified. Democrats and Republicans always stick up for the Israelis, no matter what they do, but never for the Palestinians, no matter how much they suffer.

Yes, the Democrats HATE US. Most of the country does. It's a racist fucking country, especially against Arabs. But guess what? Our demographics are growing here and we will not be oppressed forever. We will have our own MLKs, Malcolm Xs and Bobby Seales soon.

I'd be worried about you reporting me to the Feds, but it's too late for that. An uppity sand-nigga is always under the gun and watchful eye of Big Brother in this country.

[ThatPoetGuy]

89. It's difficult...

It's hard to grow up in a country where you're the "other," the outsider, set apart by your appearances and your ancestry. We need to stick together.

Big Bill Haywood, I'm Jewish and mildly pro-Israel, and I'm saying to you, if anybody gives you a hard time, if anybody gives your children, your brother or sister or parents a hard time, I'll kick their asses.

[Jim Sagle]

93. Yessssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bigbillhaywood]

143. So are you saying you support Arab hatred? nt

[Jim Sagle]

164. No. Nice try, though.

[bigbillhaywood]

166. A true Partisan Mr Sagle.

[Djinn]

175. Do you want to clarify then?

"The Dems have always been in AIPAC's pocket. Hating Arabs, particularly Palestinians, has always been bipartisan policy-- it's as American as apple pie! (To paraphrase brother H. Rap Brown)."

to which YOU respond YEAH! any non bigot who perhaps wanted to simple say "yeah" to Dem's being in AIPAC's pocket might have refuted the claim about Arab hatred but you don't, it leads one to wonder

[Jim Sagle]

176. I'm just glad real Democrats aren't drinking the Chomsky Kool-Aid.

[Forkboy]

181. real Democrats sounds a lot like repubs saying real Americans

both sound real stupid.

[Jim Sagle]

195. Pfffffffftttttttt!!!!!!!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

200. Who uses phrases like "drinking Chomsy Kool_Aid" other than

than the "Weekly Standard"?

[sir_captain]

202. Noam Chomsky

is hardly a universally accepted authority on the left. In my opinion, for instance, I think he ought to stick to linguistics, where he is clearly kind of a genius. I think he suffers from the "I'm really brilliant at one thing, so I think I'm really brilliant at everything" disease that afflicts many professors at our top institutions.

[Classical_Liberal]

205. I have never heard anyone but repuke David Brooks use that phrase

I don't know how you could interpret that as a positive or negative statement on Chomsky.

[Classical_Liberal]

206. I have never heard anyone but republican David Brooks use that phrase

I don't know how you could interpret that as a positive or negative statement on Chomsky. I know Chomsky isn't universally loved on the left. The drinking Chomsky Kool-Aid statement makes this assumption however.

[sir_captain]

207. Ok

that's a fair point

[Jim Sagle]

214. But a rather silly one. Chomsky is a rabid anti-Israeli and he lends his

prestige to holocaust deniers.

[Classical_Liberal]

220. Who gives a shit about Chomsky

? It a pathetic attempt to change the subject using a republican talking point. Chomsky Kool-Aid my ass.

[Djinn]

223. if it looks like a duck - quacks like a duck

[Solon]

28. I rarely if ever comment on these types of threads...

OK, couple of things, well, it seems to me that no being anti-zionic is not necessarily anti-semitic. I could technically be labeled a Zionist, however I deplore the current government of Israel and it way it tries to "Secure" itself. While every nation has the right to self defense, waging war on an entire people is not the way to do it. How much longer can Israel keep up with the targetted attacks and bulldozing of homes, what is the goal, eliminating the Palestinians entirely? While I believe Israel has the right to exist, I do not believe that it is right to collectively punish an entire people to maintain security. I deplore the methods both sides use, and find the terrorism and bombings, on both sides, to be futile in resolving the conflict.

[bigbillhaywood]

37. Your kind of Zionist is okay by me. If only more Israel supporters could

take such a common-sense moral view. There seem to be more reasonable Israelis than there are American Zionists. I think most American Zionists are what the IRA pragmatists used to call their virulent American supporters in NORAID-- "long guns" (basically chickenhawks).

[sir_captain]

38. wow, you really like to generalize don't you?

[bigbillhaywood]

39. Um, I don't see what's wrong with generalizing about a political position

For example: "Most Republicans are anti-abortion rights" Universally true, no, but generally true-- a generalization.

[sir_captain]

42. right, except in this case, you have no proof

pro-life is part of the republican platform, so it's fair game. but the idea that most American Jews (and non-Jews who support the right of Israel to exist) are "chickenhawks" is asinine, and frankly, violates the rules of this board. There are plenty of American Jews, myself included, who are horrified with the portrayal of Arabs in the west, and who absolutely and totally support an independent Palestinian state, yet who still consider themselves "Zionists."

[bigbillhaywood]

46. I know there are, I have many friends who are Jewish Zionists but

very sympathetic to Palestinian human rights and need for a homeland, but I fear they are the minority. And I never said the majority of American Jews are chickenhawks-- you should read my posts more carefully. You think it violates the rules of this board, alert my ass!

[sir_captain]

49. Clarification

I misspoke; I meant to say (based on "I think most American Zionists are what the IRA pragmatists used to call their virulent American supporters in NORAID-- "long guns" (basically chickenhawks)." American Jews who support the right of Israel to exist (Zionists) and I stand by that. I hope you can understand why those of us who are Zionists but don't fit into your categorization might be offended. I'm not in the business of alerting people left and right, but I do think you should go back and edit your post.

[bigbillhaywood]

54. What should I edit? This is my opinion. I wrote "I think", I did not

state it was incontrovertible fact. If someone, such as yourself, wants to challenge it, they are welcome to. If you look at some of my other posts, I indicate that I do not believe Zionists to be monolithic (in fact, I indicated that in the post you are talking about). But I feel I am within my rights to do some generalization on a political issue without an explicit disclaimer. If there's something in my post you consider bigoted or offensive, I will consider editing it, but if it's just a disagreement, I'll leave it and we can disagree.

[sir_captain]

57. You are making an attack on an entire group of people

many of whom are members of DU. Personal attacks are not allowed on DU. Am I "offended" by you? Well, yes, to the degree that I can possibly get offended by an anonymous message board. To be clear, no, you are not within your rights to make an attacking and inflammatory generalization on a DU member group any more than you are allowed to say that Israelis = Nazis.

[bigbillhaywood]

60. I am generalizing a political position, if people on DU hold this

position, I cannot be held responsible for their offense to my position. Although they are certainly welcome to disagree with me. This is my opinion, as I have indicated-- it is open to debate. The Israelis=Nazis is disingenuous. My statement was much more nuanced and did not attack an entire people. It is no different than saying I think most Likudists are... or I think most Hamas apologists are... Again, I ask you, precisely what do you want me to edit?

[sir_captain]

63. Yes, it is different

Likud is a political party, the same way the Republican party is, and Hamas likewise has a set of tenets. There is no such set of tenets for people who support Israel's right to exist. There are Zionists in the Democratic party, and in the Republican party, and in the Green party, etc. You are not generalizing about a politcal party, but about an entire group of people. Was your statement more nuanced than the Nazi example--yes, but that doesn't make it right.

I think you should edit your post so that you are not generalizing about all Americans who support the right of Israel to exist.

[bigbillhaywood]

65. Okay then what about fascists or religious fundamentalists or neocons

or liberals or progressives? Can I not generalize about them, even though they are not necessarily linked to a specific political party platform? What exactly do you want me to write? I'm not deleting it, but I will consider rephrasing in the interest of keeping the peace (evwn though I don't really see the need for it).

[sir_captain]

66. You can generalize about whomever you want

so long as it isn't a personal attack on DU members--that's the rule. So sure, go to town on the freepers. But no, you would not be ok if you said that all liberals are baby-killers or something like that. I don't care what you change it to, or frankly, if you change it at all. I'm just pointing out to you that a) you're breaking the rules, and b) making an irresponsible generalization. We actually agree on a lot of your other points.

[bigbillhaywood]

68. Well, I don't think I'm breaking the rules and how irresponsible my

generalization is is up for debate. We can agree to disagree on these things. And by the way, if making negative generalizations about pro-Palestinian DU members was against the rules, I can think of quite a few people (a couple on this thread) that would have been tombstoned long ago. So I stand by my "long guns" comment, but you're right, I can't prove it, it's just an opinion based on limited personal experience. I'm sure we'll get to discuss these issues another time, but it's getting late and I gotta hit the sack-- got a long day of work and persoanl errands ahead tomorrow (actually today). Good night, sir_captain (Sounds like a movie line, huh?)

[sir_captain]

70. Fair enough

I should probably hit the hay myself... ;-)

[Djinn]

67. but you can't understand why

I'm offended by a poster here referring to people like myself and my family as anti-semites (or probably to be fair if he knew what he was talking about I'd be "self hating")or that we don't exist or that we crawl out from under rocks after midnight. (btw aquart it's only 4.30pm down my way)

To be honest sir_captain I think those comments are FAR closer to personal attacks on DU members than anything bigbill has said.

Personally I havn't read anything "alertable" in this thread - the whole thing should probably get moved to the I/P but I'm not going to go crying because someone wants to call me names.

[sir_captain]

69. should definitely be moved to I/P

I didn't see where someone called you and your family anti-semitic, but if they did, you should certainly be offended and that would be very alertable.

I think a couple posts in this thread have crossed the line... though I'd bet we've all seen a lot worse.

[Djinn]

72. When people state that

anti-Zionist = anti-semite they are describing my family and calling all of us (most of whom are ethnically Jewish, though atheist - much like the most famous proponents of Zionism btw) anti-semitic.

That is offensive, that is the entire thrust of the argument as far as some are concerned, that anti-Zionist = anti-Jewish (a more accurate term, my family is Jewish but not semitic, bigbill from what I gather IS semitic but NOT Jewish).

They don't need to specifically name my dear ol pa and dead grandparents just as I wouldn't have to specifically name all Americans before a sentance like "all americans are warmongering bigots" is offensive (THAT IS AN EXAMPLE NOT MY OPINION BTW)

[sir_captain]

74. ok, i see your point

and it is obvious that you are not anti-semitic, so don't worry about lots of people thinking that...

but yeah, your point is pretty much the same one I was trying to make to bigbill from the opposite direction

[Djinn]

173. but if I wasn't from a Jewish background family

and I still held the exact same views I can guarantee I'd have a harder time convincing people of that

[sir_captain]

193. Yeah, probably

and that's sure unfortunate.

It's hard for me to say that I don't understand why a lot of Jewish people are touchy on the subject, though, you know? I myself, as a Jewish person growing up in New York, never really faced any anti-semitism until I went to college (at one of the elite liberal universities in the country, no less.) I know that it's made me more sensitive to it--maybe a little more than I should be. I dunno--things like The Passion don't help either.

[Solon]

47. I guess mine is a curious position...

I'm both pro-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian at the same time. To be honest, I find arguments where one side or the other says "Look at what THEY DID, that is why they are wrong about...", well you get the picture. It seems to me that the people who support either side, without critisizing what their side does, are acting like children. Think of two siblings fighting in the sandbox, telling mom who hit who first, talk about a never ending argument. Granted that is simplifying the argument while being offensive at the same time to those who take it seriously, but to me it seems that the fights down in I/P are THAT petty.

[bigbillhaywood]

55. Actually you're not the only person I know who has that position, but

you're right, it's pretty rare on an issue this polarized. My best friend from NYC is Jewish and he has almost the exact view you do, but it's fairly uncommon (at least in this country, I actually think it is probably more common in Israel where people get to see the conflict close-up rather than the propagandized chickenhawks here).

[Solon]

64. I summarize like this...

I look at the actions of the extremists on both sides, and say, WTF is wrong with these people? Call me a cynic but I don't think either side will change much until one or the other is destroyed. I wish they would just grow up, admit mistakes of the past, and MOVE ON!!!

[Jim Sagle]

94. Too bad, so sad.

[mrgorth]

117. Ahem

I've agreed with most of your points here. As the Freedom for All Ireland chairman for my Ancient Order of HIbernians division and my county and a member of NORAID who has visited provos in jail and met Gerry Adams, I can tell you that the republican movement in Ireland appreciates our contributions quite a bit.

[bigbillhaywood]

140. Withdrawn.

I was just trying to use an example of the friction between some NORAID members and some Sinn Fein members at the beginning of the peace process, I did not mean to imply that Sinn Fein does not appreciate NORAID's efforts (in fact, I think NORAID's efforts were critical to Sinn Fein) nor that all members of NORAID were a party to the friction between Sinn Fein during the peace process. I was simply using it as an example of the "long guns" mentality. Sorry if I did not make that clear. Trust me, I got NO PROBLEM with NORAID.

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. I watched part of that on C-Span and it sickened me

Every fucking person in that room believed that Ariel Sharon could do no wrong and that all Palestinians were fucking terrorists.

What the FUCK is wrong with this country? :puke:

[Jim Sagle]

95. Yessssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Forkboy]

182. do you agree with those sentiments Jim?

Every fucking person in that room believed that Ariel Sharon could do no wrong and that all Palestinians were fucking terrorists.

[Jim Sagle]

215. No, but I did not notice those sentiments being expressed. I was just

heartened to see strong support for Israel being expressed.

[Merlin]

34. It's important to understand that Zionism IS religious fundamentalism.

Zionism is the essential belief of virtually all settlers, most Likud members, and a substantial core minority of Israelis.

It is based on a devout belief that the Bible--specifically the first five books of the Old Testament, known collectively as "The Book of Moses" to Jews and "The Pentateuch" to Christians--is The Word Of God.

In Exodus, one of the five books, God--a pretty creepy, racist God--tells the Jews--12 tribes theoretically descended from a common ancestor, Abraham--that the land known now as Israel was theirs forever. This "God" of Exodus then authorizes the Jewish tribes to go into this land and cast out the people already living there. Slay them, this "God" says, kill their women and children, let their blood run in the streets. It's all there in the Bible. Yes, THAT Bible.

THAT is the basis of Zionism today!

It is tragic. This flawed and grotesque warping of ancient tribal history and folklore, into literal truth, and the racist presumption it implies, is the fundamental reason the "Holy Land" problem has become intractable.

Make no mistake about it, Zionists generally do not believe ANY Palestinians should remain in "their" land. Their goal is to make things miserable enough for them that the remainder will emigrate to Jordan or Lebanon (as 50% of them have already).

The truly sad thing is that millions of wise, decent, non-racist Jews do not believe this blasphemous heresy. But they are trapped in a nation run by religious fanatics. We Americans understand that situation, and the accompanying sense of powerlessness very well.

[bigbillhaywood]

45. Not entirely correct...

This describes some Zionists, but there have always been secular Zionists from the beginning. Zionism simply means the establishment of a Jewish homeland. It is essentially nationalism. A peculiar nationalism, since the people were spread all over the world and shared religion but not geography. I think this is the main reason Israeli nationalism (Zionism) became much more ethically problematic than other national liberation movements. In order to establish their homeland, they had to move somewhere already inhabited by non-Jews. In order to establish a Jewish homeland, those people had to go.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are many Zionists who are religious extremists, but there are certainly many secular Zionists as well (who can be just as extreme as their religious counterparts).

[troublemaker]

78. Israel was founded almost entirely by atheists

There was some 'contract with God' elements to 19th century zionism, but the state of Israel was a secular socialist state until the late 1970s

[rman]

108. Nevertheless, many zionists do claim Israel is the land of God.

-

[sir_captain]

36. It's complicated

was Hoyer pandering? Clearly...

On the other hand, so much anti-semitic rhetoric is hidden behind claims of anti-zionism that it is hard for many to hear. It is hard (but certainly possible) to be stongly anti-zionist without starting to go down the road of making generalizations that veer toward (usually unintentional) anti-semitism. Just look at how often people use the word "jews" in place of "Israelis" without even thinking about it.

Point being--it is quite possible to criticize Israel without being antisemitic, but it is a mistake to dismiss out of hand the notion that anti-zionism is always of pure motive.

[Solon]

51. I can understand that...

I don't even like it when terms like "Israelis have to do did this..." or "Palenstinians have to do did that.." because that indicates a unamiminity that doesn't exist in either group of people. I will critisize the actions of the Israeli Government or Sharon, or Arafat and the PA, but not the people, that is stupid. How would we feel if the world is saying, "Americans have to do this...etc." due to Bush*.

[sir_captain]

53. definitely

and I think that, sadly, the rest of the world often falls into the trap you just mentioned--their anti-americanism, to some degree, suggests a certain lack of understanding of the diversity of ideas in this country.

[Djinn]

73. a great way to stop the plain old anti Jewish rhetoric

hiding behind professed anti Zionism (tho' I don't beleive there is quite as much of that around as many on DU claim) is to stop allowing Israel to act as if it speaks for all Jews - It Doesn't!

Stop pandering, propagandising Israeli politicians (on the left and right) from making the connection that "what is good for Israel is good for Jews"

When "Zionism" is severed in people's minds from "Jewish" then claiming to be simply anti-Zionist when in reality one is a anti-Jewish bigot plain and simple will no longer be possible.

[sir_captain]

75. I agree with you in theory

though I don't know how that will happen in practical terms. Sasly, I believe that the majority of the world will always regard Israel as "the Jews" pretty much no matter what Israel does, right or wrong. I guess that's just my unhelpful cynicism talking, though--I sure hope I'm wrong.

[Djinn]

76. wont criticise you for cynicism

more than a healthy dose of that myself!

off for the day now - and if it's past midnight - you should all go to bed! :)

[evil_orange_cat]

79. Martin Luther King said the same thing... IIRC...

and I agree with him.

[Jim Sagle]

98. So do I.

[Classical_Liberal]

189. You should know

given you agreement with the idea that "ALL PALESTINIANS ARE TERRORISTS!" a view you supported earlier in this thread.

[Jim Sagle]

217. I just like the conference. If that I idea was expressed, I disavow it.

[Classical_Liberal]

188. I heard it is an urban legend

.

[Violet_Crumble]

197. The letter was a hoax...

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-01/20wise.cfm

Violet...

[JNelson6563]

80. Steny's talkin' out his ass

Disappointing to hear.

[mmm]

83. anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism

IDF apologists would have you believe anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism,
but this, of course, is pure BS.
Proponents of zionism come in all stripes. Alternately, many
many Jews are not zionists.
You can love Jews and hate zionism, same as you can love
Catholics and hate the Republican party.

[ned kelly]

85. "anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism"

I used to be an anti semite untill i learned the difference between the two i thought a jew was a jew but i was very wrong.Its like saying all arabs are like Osama or all christians are like Hitler.

i'll post a few links with some info i hope it helps to explain the diference.


http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/holocaust/holocaustpics.htm


http://www.rense.com/general53/ddske.htm


http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/


PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL THE RACES ON THIS EARTH

[wtmusic]

86. Palestinians are a Semitic people

so that is utter bullshit

[ned kelly]

91. SORRY

Forgot this one




http://ee.1asphost.com/alexjames999/chapters/hidden%20history%20of%20money-25-Jack-Bernstein.doc


its long but interesting you have to save it tho


And yes we are all semites christians jews and muslims

[wtmusic]

96. Sorry yourself

"Semite" was first used in the late eighteenth century for descendants of Noah's son, Shem. Today it's used as a common term for all those who speak a Semitic language. English is not a Semitic language.

[sir_captain]

97. that is the stupidest possible argument

and it gets made every time. the term "anti-semitic" has taken on a meaning that refers to the jewish people and everyone knows it. it is the same thing as the way that the swastika refers to the nazis despite it being a preexisting symbol.

in any case, other than semantics, what's your point?

from the american heritage dictionary:
an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

edit: dictionary definition

[wtmusic]

99. Semantics is the entire point

It's the crux of the argument. If you want to redefine the terms of the argument, feel free--in the meantime let's stay on course, shall we?

[sir_captain]

102. no, it's not

the original question, for better or for worse, was whether or not it is possible to be anti-zionist without being anti-jewish (to make it clearer for you.) you are the one who is taking it in a meaningless other direction. here, let me give you the definition of anti-semite again:

an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

[wtmusic]

103. And I'm saying it's a misnomer and a bastardization

of the root of the word, based on ignorance.

Why don't people just say anti-Jewish? Ain't that quite as intellectual-sounding?

[sir_captain]

106. so basically you just don't like the word

could there be a better word? sure...

i don't know why people don't say anti-jewish, but no one does, so i think you're just going to have to suck it up. you're correct that the word is a bastardization, but frankly, the meanings of almost every word are bastardized at one point or another. take the word bastardized, for example--we're not talking about illegitimate children now, are we?

[wtmusic]

109. Let me get this straight

You're comparing misuse of 'anti-Semitic' with 'bastardization' used as a metaphor?

Weak.

[sir_captain]

111. i'm pointing out

that lots of words have changing meanings. the only weak thing here is your preoccupation with a no longer in use definition of anti-semite.

[NuttyFluffers]

126. foolishness. anthropology uses semite term wrong, eh?

hmm, say, i'd rather stake my reputation upon science and technical terminology than vernacular usage from the past.

hphm, unused terminology from the past, eh... tell my professors that. then i'll really enjoy their laughter at you.

stop this foolishness now, semite is a real word that covers a group of people including palestinians. deal with it.

[sir_captain]

129. You are wrong

in anthropology, you are correct. in the rest of the world, you're dead wrong.

American Heritage dictionary:
an·ti-Sem·i·tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

Oxford English Dictionary:

Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic a.

You are *wrong.* This is *current* usage, and not vernacular. And let's not get into the educational credentials game...

[Spider Jerusalem]

198. Speaking of ignorance:

You seem to have quite a bit of it yourself, there. "Anti-Semitism" is a term coined (as "antisemitismus") by a German, Wilhelm Marr, in the 1870's, as a sanitised alternative to the older German word Judenhass ("Jew-hating").

Arabs may be a Semitic people, but "anti-Semitism" refers specifically to animosity directed at Jews, and no other ethnic group.

[Cheswick2.0]

210. Well as long as the Nazi's and the American Heritage Dictionary say so....

that's good enough for me.
But of course there was also a time I believed the lie that Israel was "a land without a people".

[sir_captain]

211. What is the preoccupation with the definition

of the word anti-semitism about? What point does it prove to say that Arabs are semites as well as Jews? It seems to me that it's either a failed attempt to be clever or a substitute for any substantive addition to the discussion.

The meaning of words is defined by their usage. Everyone knows that anti-semitism refers to Jews. Case closed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

212. Yet more ignorance....

since when were there Nazis in 1873? You seem to have a problem with a) the historical origins of the term and b) its accepted usage and definition.

The movement by anti-Israel Arabs and their ideological supporters on the American and European Left to co-opt the term "anti-Semitic" thus removing from it both force and context is an interesting example of the political and propagandistic uses of language. George Orwell would be envious, I'm sure.

[Jim Sagle]

100. Steny RAWWWWWWWWWKSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

[taxidriver]

104. wow. apparently my post has touched a nerve.

lol. i checked on it this morning and found that people are still posting to it.

[Merlin]

110. You're surprised because you're new. I'm astonished because I've been here

The fact is that this is the single most provacative issue on this board. I wouldn't doubt this thread will get several hundred more posts before it is allowed to drift into the archives.

What is different--and inexplicably wonderful--is that, for the most part, this discussion has been maturely handled by posters, and that has permitted a rational discussion to take place. What is also different is that the Mods have permitted it to continue on the GDF.

I salute both the posters of this thread for their maturity and the mods for their judicious restraint. We must never permit anger to overrule the need to respect the basic human dignity of those who honestly hold to an opinion--even an opinion with which we passionately disagree.

Contratulations DU! We're growing up!

[starroute]

113. There's also the strange matter of Christian Zionism

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/perlstein.php

"The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be 'the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital,' the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and David's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.

<snip>

"In addition to its work in Israel, the Apostolic Congress is part of the increasingly Christian public face of pro-Israel activities in the United States. Don Wagner, author of the book Anxious for Armageddon, has been studying Christian Zionism for 15 years, and believes that the current hard-line pro-Israel movement in the U.S. is 'predominantly gentile.' Often, devotees work in concert with Jewish groups like Americans for a Safe Israel, or AFSI, which set up a mostly Christian Committee for a One-State Solution as the sponsor of last year's billboard campaign. The committee's board included, in addition to Upton, such evangelical luminaries as Gary Bauer and E.E. 'Ed' McAteer of the Religious Roundtable.

"AFSI's executive director, Helen Freedman, confirms the increasingly Christian cast of her coalition. 'We have many good Jews, of course,' she says, 'but they're in the minority.' She adds, 'The liberal Jew is unable to believe the Arab when he says his goal is to Islamize the West. . . . But I believe it. And evangelical Christians believe it.' "

[Toronto Ron]

115. Opinions of American Jews

(Not, strictly speaking, a reply to the original message, but to several other posts.)

I found this; thought I'd throw it out there:
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.01.24/news2.html

Some bizarre results, taken together, e.g.:

Jewish settlements are an obstacle to peace
Agree: 32%
Disagree: 29%
Unsure: 38%

but:

The organized Jewish community should pressure the U.S. to let Israel keep its settlements
Agree: 34%
Disagree: 23%
Unsure: 43%

This is encouraging:
In a peace agreement, Israel should accept an independent Palestinian state
Agree: 53%
Disagree: 14%
Unsure: 33%

[MAlibdem]

118. I agree with Hoyer...

That's just me, a Jewish liberal...

[Canuckistanian]

121. Is anti-apartheid equivocal to anti-white-race in Africa?

No. It is opposition to a religious/political MOVEMENT, not oppostion to an entire race of people.

Ignoring the fact that anti-semitism by definition includes Arabs in the region, there are still many Israelis who don't buy into the more radical proponents of Zionism.

I just found a website that rejects Zionism as being against the techings of the Torah.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[sir_captain]

124. Actually, the definition of anti-semitism

refers to Jews only. refer back to my posts in the thread for the accepted dictionary definition.

Your analogy has merit but I don't buy it completely. The fact remains that anti-semites *do* hide behind a veil of anti-zionism--certainly not all, but some. as i've said several times now, it is absolutely possible to criticize Israel without being an anti-semite, but it is a naive mistake to dismiss out of hand the connection between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.

[bloom]

128. I think the word anti-semite gets the award

for the most ironic. When you consider that Semites include others in the region and that (Jewish)Semites are instrumental in increasing negative feelings/ideas about (other)Semites.

from post #77

"Described are the undue influence AIPAC exerts in the Senate and the House and the pressure AIPAC brings to bear on university professors and journalists who seem too sympathetic to Arab and Islamic states and too critical of Israel and its policies."

[sir_captain]

132. sure, it's a little ironic

but i will point out again that anti-semitism has a very clear definition.

American Heritage dictionary:
an·ti-Sem·i·tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

Oxford English Dictionary:

Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic a.

Further, your continuation of referring to Israelis as Jews rather than Israelis is part of the reason why some people find anti-zionism to have anti-semitic undertones. I suggest that you stop doing that.

[ned kelly]

153. Manufacturing Anti-Semites

[sir_captain]

157. What's your point?

That Israel is not as safe a place for Jews to live as it was originally hoped? Uh, ok... That's true.

Or that sometimes people see bigotry where it doesn't exist? Again, uh, ok...sure. Just because the ADL cries wolf too often, however does not mean that anti-semitism doesn't exist. If you'd like, I'll link dozens of horrifically anti-semitic cartoons and editorials from European newspapers. Or we can grab some excerpts from the French bestseller on how no Jews died on 9/11. If you don't believe that anti-semitism exists in the world, I have several bridges to sell you.

And again, I think that any semi-educated person knows that Arabs are semites. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the word "anti-semite" refers specifically to hating Jews. Everyone knows what it means, every dictionary has that meaning, and that's just the way it is.

[bloom]

168. "I suggest that you stop doing that."

sir_captain wrote:

"Further, your continuation of referring to Israelis as Jews rather than Israelis is part of the reason why some people find anti-zionism to have anti-semitic undertones. I suggest that you stop doing that."

What continuation are you talking about? I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I think it was perfectly reasonable to specify _(Jewish)_Semites since you insist on the definition of anti-semitism = anti-Jewish. It's not anti-semitism = anti-Israeli. Nor was the context of what I refering to relatiing specifically to Israelis, but to Jewish people everywhere, who might not be Semites at all (another reason why the word is stupid).

[sir_captain]

169. I dunno

You wrote: "(Jewish)Semites are instrumental in increasing negative feelings/ideas about (other)Semites."

You meant Israelis, no?

I meant continuation of a trend in general--didn't mean to completely single you out.

[bigbillhaywood]

148. And I'm sure there are many who criticize Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other

countries in the world as cover for anti-Muslim/anti-Arab hatred (for example, most of Congress). However, I do not assume that such criticism is equivalent to racism/bigotry. I think critcism of Israel needs to be held to that same standard.

[sir_captain]

151. absolutely

anti-muslim bigotry is just as bad. and you're absolutely right that we should not make assumptions. i'm just pointing out that it is naive to say that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are completely separate issues, just as you rightly point out than anti-arabism and anti-muslim bigotry are often connected.

[bigbillhaywood]

160. Okay how about this, then:

"Anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing, but they can sometimes be linked with one another"

[sir_captain]

162. sounds good to me

that's a good way of putting it

[Hippo_Tron]

144. I'm Jewish and certainly not a Zionist

Here's my view. I didn't survive the holocaust, let alone even live during that time and I sympathize with those who did. I can understand why they would feel that the creation of a Jewish state is necessary. But as far as the religious aspect goes, I don't belive that anybody has a god given right to a certain piece of land. Just because it was theirs in the biblical times doesn't mean it should be their's now. I mean, Europe was united under the Rome back in those days, and you don't see any movements for the creation of a new Roman Empire.

[sir_captain]

146. i don't believe

that zionism has to include a divine right. sure, there are some people who believe that, and like you, i disagree with them. but there are plenty of secular jewish (and non-jewish) people who believe in the right of Israel to exist in peace.

[Bombtrack]

178. Exactly. I have no ethnic jewish blood in me whatsoever and I'm a Zionist

probably more acurately closer to a post-Zionist but there is really a huge amount of misunderstanding and propanda-swallowing among the anti-Israel left that just sickens me. It is such a knee-jerk bandwagon issue that now is just tying in with the whole anti-globilization/anti-war counterculture movement. Most of these people are extremely close minded despite probably thinking of themselves as liberal.

[bigbillhaywood]

147. Self-hater! just kidding

[rucky]

150. That makes me an antisemetic Jew?

thanks for the insight, Hoyer

:wtf:

[ned kelly]

154. Manufactoring anti-semites

The first Israeli victim of Saddam Hussein is a Zionist myth on which we were brought up. The myth tells us that Israel is a haven for all the Jews in the world. In all the other countries, we are told, Jews live in perpetual fear that a cruel persecutor will arise, as happened in Germany. Israel is the safe haven, to which Jews can escape in times of danger. Indeed, this was the purpose of Israel's founding fathers when they established the state.

rest of the article
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0211/a...


Anti-Semitism Without Anti-Semites

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9804/opinion/klinghoffer.html


WHO ARE SEMITES


From the catholic encyclopedia


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13706a.htm

General info

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm

[nomatrix]

158. I thought the original question was

based in the lobbying of the government, and how it is expanding in the democratic party.

Let's reverse the topic. When we go broke in the Middle East, you think we can go lobby the Israeli government for some help? Do you think we'll get any help?

When does it end? When is enough, enough?

You know, I think with tempers so high over what is happening in Iraq, the outsourcing of jobs, the influx of illegal aliens, the debt of the nation, that it might be a good idea for congress not whine about this issue. We've already overextended our resources.

Support to Israel
$94 Billion and counting

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

This is just one taxpayer's opinion. For every dollar we dump over there, another U.S. federal program gets cut, and state have to up property taxes.

[JCMach1]

165. Not only that, you speak up about the attrocities in Palestine

and you are automatically labelled an anti-semite.

[Bombtrack]

179. By who? We've all heard this over and over

it's a device. It reminds me of anti-populist conservatives who say things like, "you can't speak your mind and be conservative without being blacklisted with everyone calling you a racist". Well, who is everyone? The jew-run media? Please.

[sir_captain]

192. Yeah, this is silly

I'd bet the majority of DUers would agree with you, after all. Just look at this thread--people have been espousing their views on both sides with no real repercussions. Tempers have gotten up a bit, but generally people are behaving themselves.

[durutti]

167. Where have you been?

Democrats have historically been even more fervent than the Republicans in their support for Israeli imperialism.

[Bombtrack]

180. What pray tell is "Israeli imperialism". The existence of Israel?

It's NOT doing everything murderers who blow them up want? Israel is not an empire, never was one, and never will be. It's a tiny strip of desert that it's people turned into a democratic nation from which per capita more human philosophical, technological, and overall intellectual progress has been made than few other if any nation.

It's also the only democracy in the region. And has a tradition of unique positives that are rare in the region such as free speech, free elections, equality of women, public education, and overall tolerance. Most Israeli's denounce any racism or racial hatred towards minorities while living in fear every day from Palestinians mudering them and their loved ones.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

187. oh there's lower life forms around

you're new,that's all :)

[Classical_Liberal]

190. Free speechis not a right or a tradition in Israel

. Sorry There is no written constitution there. Look at how they have censored and imprisoned those who exposed their nuclear program.

They treat women better than Islamic societies but less well than Western countries. Jewish Women have to go to religious courts to obtain a divorce. Only the husband can grant one, and if he refuses, she can't get married again as a Jew. Her children from a new marriage are considered illegimate(result of adultery) and can't marry jews for 10 generations. The man who refuses to divorce her on the other hand can cohabitate with his new girlfriend and the children resulting will not have such stigma.


It's democracy is the equivolent of a Southern Jim Crow state particularly in the West Bank.

I don't consider Israels existence imperialistic, but it's settlement policies, need to dominate middle eastern politics(PNAC) and Likud leadership the promote them most certainly are.

[sir_captain]

191. Um

"Look at how they have censored and imprisoned those who exposed their nuclear program."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that treason?

[Classical_Liberal]

199. The US has a nuclear program

I am not guilty of treason because I say so. You are essentially saying the public in Israel has no right to know about the existence of Israel's nuclear program, and that Israel values free speech. Bullocks! How can a country that doesn't allow people to know about it's weapons systems claim to value free speech. Knowledge of the existence of their weapons systems doesn't nothing to harm Israeli security.

[sir_captain]

201. I beg to disagree

if some scientist at UChicago had "exposed" our nuclear program in 1943, they probably would have been hanged. Exposing classified information is against the law, and exposing weapon information to the whole world is absolutely a security risk, and in my opinion, treasonous. I really don't see how this is any different from Aldrich Ames or any other spy.

Do the Israelis have a "right" to know about their government's weapons programs? I dunno. I'm really not sure how I feel about that--I do think that governments ought to have a certain level of discretion in terms of public disclosure of information, but I certainly see where you're coming from as well.

[Classical_Liberal]

204. They have had nuclear weapons since

the 70s, and were not in a declared state of war for most of that time. Keeping it a secret that long is the equivalent of the Manhattan project being kept a secret till 1973.

[sir_captain]

208. Come on

first of all, it wasn't like it was a real secret since everyone basically knew the whole time anyway. Second, you didn't address the fact that these guys shared state secrets. I think it's fairly reasonable of the Israeli government to decide that it's in their nation's security interest not to reveal to everyone exactly what their weapons capabilities are. If you don't think that every Western country in the world has secret weapons programs that we'll *never* hear about, I've got a bridge to sell you. Revealing classified information is a crime, and I think censoring and jailing is a pretty tame response frankly (not that I would advocate anything harsher.)

[Classical_Liberal]

218. He got in trouble not for specifics but for admitting to the program`

and showing evidence of it. Israel just chose to keep it a secret because

1) there right to bitch about imagined weapons in Iraq, Iran and Syria would be gone. Nobody sane wants them to have nukes either

2)They want to intimidate the public in the name of National Security. Hardly respect for freedom of speech in my view.

[Classical_Liberal]

219. The Dems have always been this way

It isn't new. They have gotten worse since Aipac successfully targeted McKinney and Hilliard.

[durutti]

225. *sigh*

I've argued this point with you and many others on many occasions in the past. You're welcome to browse the I/P board if you'd like some examples. I don't enjoy saying the same things over and over, and having them ignored again and again.

I've come to grips with the fact that some people are so fanatical in their unconditional support for the Israeli government that they can't be ideologically budged. Fact is, Israel could set nuke the Arab world or set up concentration camps for the Palestinians, and you'd still be making excuses for its behavior.

[Spider Jerusalem]

194. This is a complex issue.

A large part of this depends upon what one takes as one's definition of Zionism.

The most generally accepted and correct definition of Zionism is: support for the existence of a Jewish homeland in the historical area of origin of the Jewish people in (former) Palestine.

The definition which seems to be currently in vogue among those labelled as "anti-Zionist" might be thought of as an extremist form, the stated aim of the ultra-Orthodox rightist hardliners in Israel: the existence of a Jewish state which conforms to the boundaries of the Biblical "united monarchy" of Solomon and David.

The latter form of Zionism, which is supported by a minority in Israel, is in essence no different than the American "Manifest Destiny" of the nineteenth century, with a religious slant.

I don't see this distinction made often, but it should be made. Zionism is not a monolithic entity with only one presentation, although those who oppose the second form treat it as the only form.

[PATRICK]

221. Separate the chaff

Any state, even the invasive settlement of Tibet by the Chinese has its rights and concerns for the ordinary people on the ground. You can argue about rights and internal affairs within ANY country.

Let's not lose sight of the damage done in the name of security by Sharon's hawks and his Mossad and military applications. THAT being bought into 100% by our weird chickenhawk oil guys is where the trouble lies. A lot of Israelis would like to get out of the militaristic trap that itself seems a sure path to destruction- at the hands of their own fear/hate/do-anything-but-peace right wing.

Radical, violent right wingers work so nicely together to ruin and destroy the lives of the innocent while flushing the nation's true interest down the toilet!

In Israel's case, a long fight for survival surrounded by oil rich enemies can at least be understood and maybe has demonstrated a higher level of idealism and restraint than is common with countries under such stress. Biblical history is replete with all types of responses to this same geopolitical situation. Violence, repression and exclusion even if momentarily successful leave a very poor legacy and no lasting peace.

So what is our reason for following the dark path? What nationwide insecurity or fear justifies our adoption of this kind of reaction? Zip. The few provocations are so much in part our own making- especially BY the very people who assume leadership to deal with the unnecessary crisis that the real evil here is completely transparent.

Sharon sabotaged the peace himself by marching into the holy places. It was a double coup since he catapulted himself into power by that very means. Our people are equally transparent with this circular trap in which our two respective nations are trapped, grinding ourselves to pieces in powerless despair as evidenced by the circular logic used here that diverts us from the true propose of getting rid off the scum
committing crimes against humanity for THEIR- not any nation's- profit.

If once the madmen are gone then peace would remain hard work. This time is useless hell, spinning wheels, risking more hate to be exploited by very evil men such as head our two lost nations. Then you could argue very rationally about Zionism with support from a lot of Jews who in these times naturally circle their wagons. In fact, many Jews are more courageous in speaking out against their government's policies than even our appointed opposition leaders here.

The world's leadership and hence governments are in general a pile of manure and that is exactly how they have been crafted under pressured by right wing capitalism at its worst and most seductive. Crippling humanity all for the sake of private economic anarchy and amoral greed. Let the meek inherit the government and do what they are told. The earth belongs to mega corporations.

I am not a socialist by the way. Dealing with rotten apples is not the same as waving an ideological banner. We need law and values or humanity just won't have a chance to work out survival.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

203. i'll pass the word along to my anti-zion jewish family members and friends

:eyes:

[regularguy]

216. Idiotic.

Sometimes anti-zionism/anti-israel is an expression of anti-semtitism. Anyone who thinks it *always* is is, at best, a moron.