How would you respond to this from a person you consider a friend?

[Mobius]

Someone I consider a friend had this to say in thier Live Journal. I am begging you for good suggestions to smack them down eloquently, Thanks.

""Atrocity"
You know, the word "atrocity" has been thrown around quite frequently for over a week now. What's so atrocious? Well, according to some of our more pampered country-men (and women), the goings-on at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. They would call our behavior "atrocious" and say that we "tortured" those poor poor terrorists and extremists by making them wear womens' panties; nevermind the fact that many of those "victims" most likely had American blood on their hands. One of my pet peeves has always been when people mis-use a word to make something bigger or uglier or more sensational that it really is. The liberal media is very good at doing this (the conservative media does it too, but they haven't yet developed it into an art form like liberals). Was the behavior of the American troops at Abu Ghraib prison "atrocious"? Were they "torturing" their prisoners? Absolutely not. So what is atrocious?

The beheading of Nick Berg, at least.

Here was an innocent man, who against better judgement went into Iraq to help people and make a few bucks. He wound up getting his head cut off for his troubles. This man was not executed. Execution implies some sort of legal or court system was followed. This man was butchered. His head was cut off with a knife. Not a sword, not a guillotine. This was not quick and painless. I watched the unedited video at www.consumptionjunction.com and Nick Berg screamed bloody murder for a good ten seconds before he began gurgling and choking on his own blood. His head was sliced open and cut off with a knife, people. This shows you what kind of chickenshit barbarians we're dealing with, and these people want to bring war to America. You are the enemy. They don't care if you vote for George Bush or John Kerry or Chevy Chase. You are the enemy.

If you've got the stomach for it, go watch the video, and then tell me what is "atrocious", okay? And until then, stop mis-using words simply for effect."

[DrWeird]

1. I'd tell him to go back to nazi germany.

Because he's a fucking racist prick.

[NCLib23]

4. He may well be a racist

but where in the post des he saying anything resembling racism?

[DrWeird]

6. LOL.

Sarcasm is funny.

[Branjor]

23. The racist thing about it.....

is how he paints all the Iraqi prisoners, many of whom are innocent of any wrongdoing at all, with the same brush as those who behaeaded Nick Berg - the "they're all the same" mentality.

[NCLib23]

49. I don't see that done.

The prisoners in that cell block in Abu Graib were not your average run-of-the-mill Iraqi detainee, but were hand picked intelligence targets. This hasn't be denied or refuted. I know we've detained 60%-80% of the people for little or no cause, it is misleading to identiify this cell block with those numbers.

And I also don't see where he equated the two groups of people.

Just my 2 cents.

[bobbieinok]

59. who says they're intelligence targets?????? anyone who is still credible??

[NCLib23]

60. It is a matter of fact

In the Taguba Report, the section marked "REGARDING PART ONE OF THE INVESTIGATION, I MAKE THE FOLLOWING SPECIFIC FINDINGS OF FACT:", subsection 11, paragraph b:

(U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in his sworn statement as follows: "I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, wing 1A being made to do various things that I would question morally. In Wing 1A we were told that they had different rules and different SOP for treatment." ... When asked why the rules in 1A/1B were different than the rest of the wings, SGT Davis stated: “The rest of the wings are regular prisoners and 1A/B are Military Intelligence (MI) holds.”

paragraph e:

(U) SPC Neil A Wallin, 109th Area Support Medical Battalion, a medic testified that: “Cell 1A was used to house high priority detainees and cell 1B was used to house the high risk or trouble making detainees. During my tour at the prison I observed that when the male detainees were first brought to the facility, some of them were made to wear female underwear, which I think was to somehow break them down.”

[AlCzervik]

2. Is this standard issue stuff from your friend?

Or is this something new?

[Mobius]

34. We try not to talk politics much, but every so often he sticks his foot in

his mouth :shrug:

[furrylitldevil]

3. I'd just say that

it's this kind of thinking that perpetuates the Americanized belief that American lives are more important than the lives of anyone else in the world. It's this kind of thinking that dehumanizes the rest of the world in American eyes, and it's this kind of thinking that needs to be erased if we ever want to achieve real progress instead of just more killing on both sides.

In the words of Michael Moore, "How do you stop terrorism? Stop being terrorists!"

[Zen Democrat]

5. Your friend is spending too much time listening to Weiner (aka Savage)

Fact is, if the best thing we can say about America is that "at least we don't cut off heads" then we are indeed morally bankrupt. If you heard any of the Congressmen who viewed the pictures from Abu Ghraib that we haven't yet seen, they were shocked, appalled, disgusted and horrified.

I thought we are supposed to bring these folks up to our level by setting examples for good conduct, not sink to their depravity.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. About this person

1. Are they aware that rape, sodomy, dog mauling etc. is documented in these photos?

2. Did they steer you to their blog, or did you come across it?

[Mobius]

36. He denies the additional film and photos exist unless he personally sees

them.
I have known him on line for 4 years.

[struggle4progress]

47. Well, Congress says they have about 1800 more photos ...

and there's been adequate press coverage this week of the fact that apparently no more of this will be released. So his position seems to be deliberate ignorance.

But if you need a sound-bite, try something like this: "You folk kept telling us it was worth hundreds of billions of dollars to end Saddam's abuses of prisoners, extra-judicial executions, and rape rooms. Then we find out that our troops, in one of Saddam's infamous prisons, are abusing, raping, and killing prisoners. The Red Cross says 70-90% of the prisoners were arrested by mistake. Meanwhile, members of Saddam's dreaded Mukhabarat are being added to the US payroll. :wtf: are we doing?"

[7th_Sephiroth]

8. the last thing heard from him

would be a faint scream beforemy fist turnd his organs into a liquid goop

[zelda7743]

9. I'd say....

Dropping depleted uranium on families for over a year is atrocious.

[hyphenate]

10. One of my best friends

is a fundie. She only became "born again" about 10 years ago, but she and I agree to disagree on the subject of religion. She understands how I feel about the likes of Robertson, Falwell and the rest of them, and knows I relish every opportunity to put them down.

If you knew that your friend was a jingoistic republican before their posting of the essay, I would simply comment to them on the veracity of some of the facts contained therein. As it stands, there is enough evidence online to dispute their opinions on the subject. If you didn't know that your friend was as rabid as they appear in that essay, I would suggest that you confront them and ask them why they feel that way about current events. I don't know whether you knew they maintained this journal for awhile or not, but that will have a bearing on how much you can tell them if they've been doing this for awhile, and you ignored it up to this point. Someone just doesn't turn into this kind of person overnight--there must have been signs in their personality or writing before this.

You might lose a friend, but my friend and I are still very close and dear friends. We just understand each has different beliefs and different ways of looking at the world. In fact, Bush's behavior has even set my friend and her family off, and there is a possibility that they will vote for Kerry come November. (I hope)

[AlCzervik]

18. I also had a friend that went Fundie

and after about 2 years her pioty level exceeded my tolerence level to deal with her.

[gonefishing]

11. My Brother-n-Law thinks just like your friend

He is a fighter pilot and I am not going to change is views. I love him and I and we have remained good friends over the years. We agreed a long time ago to NEVER talk politics.

[Ksec]

12. Its simply a way of changing the subject

by showing outrage over the beheading and saying "see? this is way worse than a few tortures"

Its worked too. Media cowtowed and now we see them tiptoeing around AbuGharib for fear of the labels the right wingers throw around.

I personally thought we held ourselves to a higher standard of conduct and didnt compare ourselves to terrorists. Apparently not, any more.

[Career Prole]

13. You must have other friends...

...I'd jettison that one if I were you.
Bush* has been astute once. When he said "You're either with us or against us".
And never the twain shall meet...
Friends of mine who are with him fell off the Xmas card list, and won't make it back on without an apology.

[Speck Tater]

14. I would point out the falacy of one key statement.

"the fact that many of those "victims" most likely had American blood on their hands."

It has been established that a very high percentage of the people imprisoned were innocent of anything, and that such treatment contradicts the notion that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

[nosmokes]

15. chevy chase is on the ballot? eom

[iamjoy]

16. Be Reasonable

Yes, the beheading of Nick Berg was atrocious and I am in no way going to justify it.

But this isn't an either/or. Both are atrocious. Just because some of our enemy use abuse and torture does not give us the green light to do so. Just because Saddam Hussein tortured his people in worse ways does not make it acceptable when we do it.

We like to say we are better than they are, we must prove it. Not just once, but every day. And the inmates at Abu Ghraib did not have a trial or counsel. Yes, some of them were probably terrorists who would murdered Americans in horrible ways. And many of them may have just been fighting for their homeland, (unjustly?) seeing us as occupiers, not liberators. And yes, some of them may even have been innocent.

When we commit such acts of abuse and go further to try and defend these actions we advance the negative perception of the United States. Is there a double standard at play here? Perhaps. Is more expected of us? YES.

[Mobius]

39. very well put

thank you for a great post.

[NMDemDist2]

17. one does not negate the other

this is not a choice, both were atrocious behavior. I do not need pick one over the other, and by agreeing one is bad, it doesn't diminish the brutality of the other

[nostamj]

19. stick TNT up his butt

and drop him from 35,000 feet

(with a nod to the wit and wisdom of michael WEINER)

[tishaLA]

20. I wouldn't reply

It would fall on deaf ears. Besides, there are so many corrections you'd have to make--misuse of words is a liberal art form? Abu Ghraib isn't an atrocity? The detainees, who are not accused of being terrorists or extremists, even by MI (who told the ICRC that 70-90% were not mistaken detentions) had American blood on their hands?--that you would have to write a book. And it would go unread.

[soothsayer]

21. first of all, 70% to 90% of those prisoners are probably INNOCENT

according to the military. They just got rounded up. So yer friend is wrong about the blood on their hands, for most of 'em. Also, we are supposedly a democracy that believes in folks being innocent until proven guilty.

Which brings us to point two, which is that all those acts are atrocious, the major difference being that evil terrorists (whoever they were that did in Berg) are supposed to act atrociously, whereas civilized Americans are NOT.

Tell yer friend we are not setting a good example of how great democracy is and how fabulous we are as a civilization.

Also, remind yer friend that some prisoners were KILLED.

[baldguy]

22. Tell 'em that WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS!

[kaitykaity]

24. You could go with the factual errors, i.e.,

the media is not liberal, and that 70 percent or more
of those prisoners are innocent Iraqis.

It must be horrible for that person, to have to go to
such lengths not to look at the criminals s/he supports.
The torture policy in that prison came from on high, it
goes right to the top of the Bush administration, and
this person is doing mental gymnastics not to see that.

The third tactic to try is to appeal to the idea that
Americans are supposed to be exceptional, that is we
are supposed to be above treating prisoners so roughly.
If we are 'better' than everyone else, we should behave
that way.

Good luck. Sometimes the Kool Aid fog is just impenetrable.

[Mobius]

41. you gave me some great points to make

I may post all of these replies in my journal. Maybe then it will hit home. I don't know. He broached the topic, so I feel compelled to reply. I have , some, already. He is a freeper, but he is my frined, because personally he has stuck his neck out for me before, and has been a great shoulder to cry on.

[kaitykaity]

46. I have a friend like that, a conservative.

We agreed not to discuss politics.

Except her husband was a high-end IT professional,
and he's been out of work for almost three years.
Now she's ABB "because Bush killed my husband's career
track." I know she's ABB now, but I still don't rub
it in. She's my friend, and I love her to pieces.

This torture scandal could very well bring Bush down.
His approval ratings are in the crapper, his reelect number
is terrible, and so is the number for his handling of
the war.

Maybe the best question is, "is Bush responsible for
anything?"

It's tough, I know. You just don't know what the magic
pill will happen to be, the one kernal that shatters
the fog.

:hug:

[Warpy]

25. It's not an either/or situation

Sodomy with a broomstick is an atrocity. Rape as a means of coercion is an atrocity. Beheading (if that's what it was) is an atrocity.

You can't excuse one atrocity by another.

We have long refused to commit atrocity in this country because of who we are, not because of who they are.

I'm sorry to find out that approving torture is who you are. It is not who I am.

[eileen from OH]

26. What matters what you call it?

Yes, Nic Berg's death, and the manner in which it was done, is indeed an atrocity. Yes, it was an atrocity the way people died on 911. Yes, it was an atrocity the way that the contractors were killed, burnt, and hung in Fallujah (sp?).

But does calling something an "atrocity" somehow imbue their death and the manner in which they died with special meaning? Are there not perhaps, "atrocities", which have been visited on the Iraqi people that have not made the news? Does the mother who has seen her babies torn apart by cluster bombs not deserve to call these "atrocities." If it were your baby, would you not call it that?

Is not the soldier who went to Iraq and came home minus his legs, or arms, or sight, or face, the victim of an "atrocity"?

Words are important, yes. But being able to afix labels to pain and suffering in no way lessens that pain and suffering, whether you are an Iraqi, or an American, or someone who loves the victim.

Why not just call it ALL "atrocities" and quit worrying whether what happened to you or your loved one meets some ambiguous standard of horror. When you are in the midst of torture or humiliation, it matters not your country of origin. It matters not whether you live or die to see another day. There are no gold stars and there is no lessening of the impact, simply because you somehow survived.

As long as we insist upon conferring a hierarchy to suffering by the use of labels, we can always find an "out" by saying "well, at least we didn't do THAT." It ain't a pissing contest to see who is hurt the most. Who the fuck are we to decided when when something is "abuse" and when it is "torture" and when it is an "atrocity?" I sure as hell don't think the victims are sitting there trying to decide it, and they would be the ones who would know.


eileen from OH

[Mobius]

42. very nicely put

You people are helping me get back my center.
Thank YOu

[gristy]

27. Does it bother anyone else when someone asks a question

and doesn't stick around for the answer? Or is it just me?

[Ksec]

29. Its just you

[Walt Starr]

37. It bugs me too

:shrug:

[Mobius]

43. I'm here.

I had to run to the bank, and the store before they closed. I work 7 days next week, and it was the only chance I had to go. I hadn't anticipated so many replies when I got back.
Which reminds me I have to call my mother because her hematoma that she is supposed to be recovering from is getting larger, because of her blood thinners again. <sarcasm>I hope I get back quick enough so I dont inconvience you.</sarcasm>

[Mobius]

52. Just talked to her

she is doing fine for now. In case anyone was wondering.

[salin]

28. Suggestion

dear ____.

There is no question about the berg beheading being an atrocity. No argument there.

While you are concerned about the term used to describe the events at Abu Ghraib (and other prisons in Iraq), I am more concerned for the safety of our troops that our president put on the ground, under armed, understaffed, and under equipt. I am more concerned about the reaction to the "abuse/torture/atrocity" (whatever word you chose to put in there) by the Iraqis who are already showing signs of anger at the current occupation - I am more concerned about those Iraqis who were able to get more weapons when after the invasion we went to protect oilfields but not weapons arsenals - who are enraged by the stories of the "abuse/torture/atrocity" that were dribbling out by released prisoners (the reported 70 - 90% of those captured who are found not to be associated with terrorism, crime or active resistance), and now flooded out with the documentation ala pictures. That is a toxic, explosive mix that our under manned, equipt and armed troops who our president put on the ground has to face, every day.

So while you are concerned about the use a word to describe the behaviors depicted in the photos for "effect" - I am less concerned about the word choice and much more concerned about the consequences and the safety of the troops.

All of that has nothing to do with the Berg Beheading - in the sense of the choice of word. We are agreed. That was an attrocity.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Do a discussion of the word hypocrisy

and talk about how most patriotic Americans like to hold their nation to a higher standard of behavior than that of terrorists.

[Mobius]

31. wow, quite a response, so far

Let me read some, and then I'll give my thoughts.

[ibegurpard]

32. I couldn't be friends with someone who believed this way.

The old saying "you can't pick your family but you can pick your friends" comes to mind. That's not to say I would cut them off or be rude to them but there's just no way I could ever feel good about being around someone with that kind of belief system.

[Walt Starr]

33. I'll never understand how anybody could be friends

with somebody like that in the first place.

:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

35. I'll never understand how anybody could be friends

with somebody like that in the first place.

:shrug:

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[Straight Shooter]

40. I guess it isn't atrocious if someone molests their child

After all, other kids are getting raped and murdered in America. Ask your friend if it isn't atrocious for someone to beat the crap out of their spouse, as long as they don't kill them in a gruesome manner.

It isn't a matter of degree that makes one thing worth becoming outraged about and not another thing. This is just another Repub distraction tactic. Republicans don't have a monopoly on words which have emotional impact, and they have no right to tell others how they may or may not describe an event.

[ibegurpard]

44. yup

I guess we ought to stop being horrified at all the rapes in this country since so many people are being murdered. I mean, really, let's have some perspective. :eyes:

[Unperson 309]

45. I'd Say This.....

Try this for a reply.

Dear Friend: You know, that email made me think. I did go view the beheading video and I have come around to your viewpoint. The beheading of Nicholas Berg was an atrocity which changes everything. I have now reset the scale.

Rape is no longer an atrocity. Not rape of women, young boys, men, Iraqi or American or other. The only way any rape can now be considered an atrocity is if the victim is raped and then immediately beheaded. Sodomy is no longer an atrocity unless followed by beheading.

Since morality is absolute, what is wrong for me is wrong for you, for him, her, them, everyone, then nothing we do to others, short of beheading, can be considered an atrocity. Nor will things done to *our* troops be considered atrocious... unless immediately followed by beheading.

This makes things *far* simpler, now! Deaths of prisoners under interrogation? Don't know... were their heads still attached? Prisoners sodomized with light sticks? Forget it! They still haven't undergone atrocities, have they? Thank you for making my world a lot simpler. I now know that nothing I can do, short of chopping off someone's head, is an atrocious act.

With that in mind, I have advised my elected representatives to
revised their former opposition to abortion, gay marriage, welfare, flag burning, raising the minimum wage, teaching evolution, divorce, pornography, prostitution, rap music, Jennifer Lopez or Janet Jackson's nipple!

None of those compare to what was done to Nicholas Berg!

As an old greeting card I once got says: "Success in this world depends on which end you use more. It's a case of Heads, you win, tails you lose!"

I'm so glad we, as a nation, are finally using our heads.

309

[Mobius]

48. wow! that is good.

[Qanisqineq]

53. definitely mention the rape and sodomy

imagine how the USA would react if our young men and women were being raped by their Iraqi or Al Qaeda captors? There would be absolute outrage.

[progressivebydesign]

50. Friend? No friend of mine.

I'm sorry.. how in the world could you even consider befriending this person? We have a little saying in our house. "If someone is not nice to the waiter, he is not a nice person". In other words, I would not have a friendship with this person. If someone could be so cold, callous, and ignorant, why would you even want to share air space with them? Even if I had no other friends, I'd kick that person to the curb. That kind of negative energy follows those people.. why invite that into your life?

Did you really need us to tell you that?

[Mobius]

51. I just want him to see the light.

Is that so wrong? :shrug:

[exDinosoar]

57. Friendship

Some people just don't get it.

Did you really need us to tell you that?
Us? Is there a monolith in the room?

[exDinosoar]

54. Friends don't need to smack friends down

He has an opinion and is entitled to it just as you do and are. Life is too short to spend it trying to change the personal opinions of friends.

[Mobius]

55. So dont reply to this at all?

Its bugging me and it would be dishonest to keep that in.

[exDinosoar]

56. Reply, discuss and listen

That's what friends are for. If their mind gets changed it should be fate and not a goal.

[MasonJar]

58. Remind him that more than 70% of the prisoners were innocent

of ANY wrong doing. Also remind this friend that the abuse and torture of prisoners is against the Geneva Convention and the Code of Military Conduct.

[against all enemies]

61. Good-bye - I must return to earth.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

62. This week, Franken said he heard an interview by some guy that

teaches at West Point. The guy said that in WW I, Americans got the reputation for treating POWs well. In WW II, the German fathers told their sons, "If you are fighting against the Russions, fight to the death, don't let them take you. If you are against the Americans, surrender, they won't kill you and will treat you well." It seems to be mostly true. So that saved a lot of lives.

Tell him look at the Marshall Plan and how that was done to prevent what happened with WW II from happening again. Tell him how Lincoln wanted to handle the reconstruction of the South and how our history would have been so much better had he not been assassinated.

Why would he think a civilized nation would want to go down to that level?

[ComerPerro]

63. Well, here's the thing: Not all of the prisoners were terrorists, or even

"enemy comatants". In many cases the troops just round a bunch of people up.

[last1standing]

64. I had a friend who thought the exact same way a couple of days ago.

I realized he wasn't the friend I thought he was. My friends don't condone torture and murder. I told him such and he tried to make excuses out of Berg. Since he didn't understand the hypocrisy of his statements I didn't think he would benefit from my explanation of it.

I won't be calling him again. I have other friends who appreciate human life, even brown human life.

[last1standing]

65. Dupe.

n/t