Doctor Declares Berg Video a Fake

[TNOE]

Looks Like Our DU Sleuths are Pretty Damn Smart

http://rense.com/general52/decap.htm

The first casualty of war is the truth and this one has been no exception. La Voz de Aztlan obtained a copy of the video showing the beheading of American Nick Berg of Philadelphia and immediately something very odd was readily apparent. Not only were the purported screams of Nick Berg not in synchrony with the decapitation but their was also a total lack of blood spurting out as his jugular and other veins and arteries were being cut.
Doctor Raul Castro Guevara is saying that there is no way that the individual in the video was alive and his heart pumping while his neck was being cut. The doctor adds that in these cases, while the heart is pumping, cutting a person artery in the neck, would cause copious amounts of blood to spurt all over the immediate environment. He says that in his opinion the video is a fraud.

We hope that our readers view the video and see for themselves. We will provide a copy to any of our subscribers that have been supportive of our publication. Send a request to La Voz de Aztlan at [e-mail]

More:

http://rense.com/general52/nickk.htm

http://rense.com/general52/stageda.htm

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_crime&Number=1468521&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post1468521

[wtmusic]

1. Oh paleeze

He should go have lunch with the gang over at WTC7.net

[Beam Me Up]

31. What's a matter, you don't think we're lied to on a regular basis?

I do.

I'm really fed up with this reactionary knee-jerk anti-conspiricy crap.

Anyone who doesn't question media is a fool. This video was created and released for its SHOCK effect. No one is saying that Berg wasn't decapitated--what is being said is that the VIDEO was produced and released to have a certain social impact. There are a lot of questions about this video--a lot of them--just as there are a lot of unanswered questions about 9/11. It is our RESPONSIBILITY to question WHAT we are being made to think and feel and WHY and by whom. Qui bono. Anyone who isn't using his or her critical thinking, especially in regards to what comes to us via the media, is being manipulated.

[wtmusic]

34. I question everything

This question took about .02 seconds to answer.

I'm really fed up with the knee-jerk "everything is a conspiracy" crap. You're being manipulated by your own paranoia.

[Beam Me Up]

170. I see. You "question everything" with the attention span

of a gnat (.02 sconds). Then you derisively dismiss any further questions by anyone else.

Interesting.

[Mika]

200. Doctor Raul Castro Guevara??

Winston at work?

Doctor Raul Castro Guevara?? :wtf:


straight outta the book

[no_arbusto]

204. I guess

Doctor Franco Goebbels Hitler was unavailable for comment.

[northzax]

52. three questions for you

1: is Michael Berg Dead?
2: was his body found decapitated?
3: does it really matter whether he was alive or dead when decapitated?

[Beam Me Up]

174. Three answers for you:

1: Indeed, unless we are being lied to, Michael Berg is dead.
2: Yes, unless we are being lied to, his body was found decapitated.
4: Yes it does matter whether he was alive or dead when he was decapitated. This latter is the most important because if this video is faked in anyway, then it is a sociological weapon of mass deception.

Your questions are incredibly nieve. What is important is what you believe to be true. Who ever controls your perception of relaity controls you. You will make your life decisions based on what you believe is true and based on what you perceive to be in your best interest. "What difference does it make, he's dead..." is missing the point.

See this post on a different thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1592150&mesg_id=1592982

[northzax]

177. wow, are you paranoid, or what?

the number of people who would have to be lying for 1 and 2 to be false are asurd. Maybe they got the same people who faked the moon landing?

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. as a hunter, i am

probably one of the few people here who has ever actually slit the throat of a living animal. IMHO, this guy is full of it. the blood doesn't come out under that much pressure if the jugular is totally cut with one slice.

[NNN0LHI]

67. I am confused here. You go hunting using a knife? n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

87. if it's safe, and i actually hate saying this, considering

the subject of the thread, but slitting a wounded deer's throat is a pretty quick way to deliver the coup de grace.

[NNN0LHI]

103. Oh. I got it now. Of course after following the blood trail of a...

...mortaly wounded deer the thing to do is cut its throat. But I have followed some blood trails my self and by the time we came up to the animal they were very short on blood. The deer has already just about bled to death while running until it went down. The deers blood pressure would be close to zero at this point. So comparing that amount of blood to what would happen with a live uninjured person is not accurate at all.

Don

[bearfartinthewoods]

116. that isn't always the case

i hit a deer in the spine once and it went down immediately. there was very little blood loss.

[tuckessee]

120. Hit in the spine?

Might that cause the deer to be paralyzed?

Might being paralyzed have an effect on aortic action?

Was Mr. Berg shot in the spine with a high velocity rifle bullet before being decapitated?

[bearfartinthewoods]

131. i could see his heart pounding

so i doubt it. if there was signals getting through to make the heart beat, i don't know how aortic function could be impaired.

Christopher Reeves' heart beats, even though his neck is broken and he's quadriplegic.

[stickdog]

136. Pardon me if I believe all doctors I know over Buck the Ripper (mt).

[bearfartinthewoods]

152. fine...when all doctors say it

but you are choosing to belief an internet site referencing a doctor who you don't even know really exists. i'm just telling you what i personally experienced.

[NNN0LHI]

139. Going into shock also lowers blood pressure

I will bet the animal was in shock.

Don

[bearfartinthewoods]

156. that possible but doesn't resipation and heart beat slow

when you go into shock? that wasn't the case.

look...this was my first deer. i thought i killed it outright, laid down my gun and excitedly, ran to the deer. i was majorly freaked to see it panting and still alive. i didn't want it to suffer while i went back and found my gun so i did what i thought would be kindest to end it's suffering.

the time between the shot and my getting there was probably about a minute and i doubt it had time to go into shock.

[Nadienne]

138. I know someone who also shot a deer in the spine

and paralyzed it. He didn't cut the deer's head off to kill it, though.

[bearfartinthewoods]

154. neither did i

having problems with comprehension are you?

[Nadienne]

160. Trusting a hunter

when he gives his expert opinion is as much of a gamble as trusting a doctor when the doctor gives his expert opinion.

[bearfartinthewoods]

166. i didn't claim to be an expert

i'm just telling what happened.

[Nadienne]

172. Nor am I

an expert. But at this point, I am reluctant to call anything impossible. There are a number of things about the video that I consider decidedly odd...

[scared]

95. Excuse me, but.........

Isn't he a doctor? You would think he might know a little of what he was talking about. The thing that I find hard to understand is the lack of any struggle. If someone was attempting to cut my head off my instincts would be to scream, kick, plead for my life. Don't get that at all.

[geek tragedy]

104. As I noted below

the source for this, voz de aztlan, is a notorious hate site that publishes lies all the time. It should never, ever, ever be cited as a source for anything. Less credible than the Freepers.

[tuckessee]

107. Are deer and humans the same?

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence that ungulates and homosapiens spew similar amounts blood when having their throats slit while alive?

Do deer bleed less than poultry who are known to eject large amounts of blood after decapitation?

Have you factored in previous blood loss of the wounded deer you finished off with a blade?

Generally, what is the time lapse between the initial injury to the deer and your coup de grace?

Do you completely sever the head of the deer while its heart is still pumping or do you just slit the throat?

If there is so little blood loss in the deer killing method you practice how do they die?

Is it from blood loss (unlikely considering the lack of blood you describe) or is it from some other cause?

In order to give weight to your dismissals it's pertinent to know these things.

You say there's not a lot of blood if the arteries are "totally cut with one slice" but those who have seen the video state that the decapitator uses a sawing motion which would tend to eliminate the possibility of a "clean cut" and "one slice" scenario.

It's not like the head was severed cleanly in a fraction of a second with a blow from a samurai sword or guillotine.

And if we take the tape at face value, Mr. Berg was alive and well before being decapitated unlike the deer you describe who are already knocking on death's door so any comparisons between the two are invalid .

[bearfartinthewoods]

148. ok

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence that ungulates and homosapiens spew similar amounts blood when having their throats slit while alive?


well comparing the size of the heart being similar. of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you do the research on deer blood pressure etc.



Do deer bleed less than poultry who are known to eject large amounts of blood after decapitation?


there is much more difference between chickens and deer and deer and humans. i have watched my father cut the heads off chickens. the chickens are hung upside down so gravity aids the flow. chickens also have some sort of primitive "mini brain". i don't know the proper term but there is some centralized nerve complex that enables them to move for quite a while after decapitation. people don't have that. when the human brain is separated from the spinal cord, the body ceases to function so therefore the heart is no longer beating as the chickens heart does, post decapitation.




Have you factored in previous blood loss of the wounded deer you finished off with a blade?


minimal. the shot severed the spine and the deer dropped in place.



Generally, what is the time lapse between the initial injury to the deer and your coup de grace?


minimal. i was brush hunting and less than 25 yards away.



Do you completely sever the head of the deer while its heart is still pumping or do you just slit the throat?


the object is to deprive the brain of blood so the animal dies and doesn't suffer any more than necessary. i just slit the neck on both sides. actually cutting the "throat" isn't necissary. just getting the veins.


If there is so little blood loss in the deer killing method you practice how do they die?



the brain is deprived of oxygen when the blood flow is interrupted.




Is it from blood loss (unlikely considering the lack of blood you describe) or is it from some other cause?




see above




In order to give weight to your dismissals it's pertinent to know these things.




sure thing




You say there's not a lot of blood if the arteries are "totally cut with one slice" but those who have seen the video state that the decapitator uses a sawing motion which would tend to eliminate the possibility of a "clean cut" and "one slice" scenario.


i said the pressure of the flow would be different if the artery were just nicked, the blood would spurt farther as compared to cut completly through quickly. i didn't say there would be a difference in the amount of blood loss.

the artery runs very close to the surface of the skin. one slice could easily slice through the artery. they didn't cut in that area right away though. i think the first two slices were under the chin.
i think the third cut his the artery.

this happens at 13:46:00 i believe, when you see the pool of blood begin to form.



It's not like the head was severed cleanly in a fraction of a second with a blow from a samurai sword or guillotine.
And if we take the tape at face value, Mr. Berg was alive and well before being decapitated unlike the deer you describe who are already knocking on death's door so any comparisons between the two are invalid .

as i explained above, the deer was not knocking on death's door. it had a minor wound that just happened to paralyze it.

[Sterling]

193. That explains a lot.

I can;t help thinking of a few movie scenes. Like the one in Powder?

[Wapsie B]

64. So you believe the Warren Commission?

All we're saying is that there's a possibilty that there's something more here than meets the eye.

[doni_georgia]

175. Did you watch the video?

Because I did, and the doctor is right.

[Sparkle]

2. Yep. Some DUers always question everything.

And it's a good thing.

[still_one]

3. BULL

The decapitated body was found, was that a lie also?

All I know is that the actual coroner did not refute the method of death

Unless it is proven otherwise, we look like fools making such statements

[Spazito]

6. What coroner? I have seen no reports that a coroner has been...

involved. Do you have a link on that?

[Terran]

37. Yes, I'd like to see that coroner report link too

if he has such a thing (which I doubt). This matter of the lack of blood is compelling. No one here is denying somebody got killed and had their head cut off; but clearly the events did not take place as the video is meant to portray them. This brings the entire situation into serious question.

[rooboy]

10. If you're afraid of looking like a fool, join the republican party.

Standing up to the mainstream involves a lot of looking like a fool. It's a risky business.

You say "unless it is proven otherwise". Just WHO are you waiting for to "prove otherwise"??? George Bush?

[HuskerDem]

28. Sounding like an illogical nut-job doesn't help the Democratic party

either. I notice you skipped the part about the actual headless dead body.

Hey, maybe Hollywood is in on it too! Yeah, they got the same producer that gave us the lunar landing and the second cousin of the dude that constructed the grey man for the alien autopsy. AND MEL GIBSON! He's a conservative, he must be in on it too!

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[Terran]

39. The lack of blood

is exactly the opposite of "illogical"--it's perfectly logical. I was skeptical about the conspiract theory myself until I heard about the this blood issue.

[bearfartinthewoods]

62. you watch too many movies

think of a garden hose. if you nick it and put a tiny hole into a pressure bearing hose, the water will spray out.

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

once the brain is deprived of blood, the heart stops beating fairly quickly. we are talking about 15-30 beats of a heart.... not a whole hellova lot of blood.

i never thought i would have to be talking about this in such a clinical manner but somebody has to.

[City Lights]

74. But his neck wasn't cut in two with one stroke.

It was "nicked at" a number of times.

Have you seen the video?

[bearfartinthewoods]

91. i didn't say his neck was cut in two with one stroke.

i said his jugular was probably cut with one stroke. it lies quite near the skin and there is nothing "tough" in the immediate area. the hacking, and i bet it was hacking, you see was them trying to get through the spine.

[Terran]

98. You most certainly implied it

by this:

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

If that statement is the basis of your interpretation, then it appears you feel that the one-stroke action caused the blood to pool rather than spray. But you admit that his head was not cut off in one stroke, then WHY didn't the blood spray?

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. the hose is analogous to the blood vessel. not the neck.

sheesh..

[Tinoire]

124. Dirk- Once again, good to see here. n/t

[interceptor]

203. It makes sense because of continuity in fluid flow

The guy may or may not be a doctor - but he's no fluid mechanics expert.

Say a fluid passes from a small diameter pipe into a larger diameter pipe. V = velocity, A = area of the pipe, or Pi*r^2. A*V remains constant. If the blood goes from the jugular vein to a small puncture, it will come out fast. If it comes out through a relatively large wound, as here a complete severing of the vein, the velocity will be slower. The velocity in the blood stream is relatively low and relatively laminar.

This is how the spray nozzle on your garden hose works. The velocity of the stream is high. When you take the nozzle off the cross sectional area is greater and the velocity is lower. The velocity of blood in the system isn't that high to begin with, so its perfectly reasonable that there wasn't blood spewing everywhere like a Quentin Tarantino movie.

Seriously, why is this dicussion even taking place?

Yeesh. That "doctor" and a lot of people here need to take a course in fluid mechanics.

-resident mechanical engineer

[diamondsoul]

119. I watched the video. You're wrong, Bear.

The decapitation was begun at the front of his neck, they sawed all the way around the neck until the final work was getting through the spine and esophagus. I watched the whole fucking thing. (apologies for the tone, I'm rather ticked at myself for being so stupid)

Now after getting involved in about a hundred different discussions about this bizarre death I'm going to have to watch it again so I can confirm my observations weren't colored by my absolute horror.

I am certain I saw a man's head being SAWED off, and I'm also certain the man was dead prior to his head being removed. His face never changed during this segment, after the time-stamp changed, however at the very beginning, just BEFORE the time-stamp jumps forward he grimaces.

[Tinoire]

123. I watched it too. Noticed the same thing. They sawed his head off

The milk-fed, fidgetting freaks who did this had NO idea what they were doing. It was nothing like the clean-cut beheadings Islam is 'notorious' for.

I'll go watch it again tonight.

[TahitiNut]

132. Remember what's required for a kosher/halal killing of livestock.

Let's be clear. This is not a region unfamiliar with the requirements of such beheadings. The Berg beheading was anything but kosher.


It's appalling to me that this isn't obvious to more people.

[QC]

135. Are halal procedures required for executing prisoners?

People have raised that point several times, but no one has put forth any evidence that the procedures for slaughtering livestock are the same as those for executing people.

FWIW, there's a video of a Russian being beheaded in Chechnya, and there was no particular effort to make the killing clean and quick. It's even grislier than the Berg video.

[stickdog]

141. Really? Pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

How could it possibly be more amateur and protracted? Did they use a nail file or something?

[TahitiNut]

146. We are well-advised to take notice of "PRO-FORMA" halal ...

... being followed in the (EDITED) video. The purpose is to prevent suffering and anxiety. Great care is taken in both halal and kosher slaughter to make sure the animal doesn't see what's about to happen and suffering is minimized to the greatest extent possible.

If you notice in the video, there's the kabuki of halal, but the depiction (as edited) isn't so artful.

(1) The knife is hidden in the tunic, not displayed.
(2) The slaughterer is behind the victim where his actions can't be seen in advance.

That's the kabuki of the video.

In a halal slaughter, the name of Allah is invoked for each and every slaughter. Not so in a kosher slaughter, where it's regarded as excessive use of the name of G-d.

In both forms of slaughter, a VERY SHARP blade is used to sever ALL the veins and arteries (with ONE slice) and the blood is supposed to be drained with maximum speed from the head - under the presumption that the slaughtered animal is unable to realize fear or anxiety in a brain deprived of blood. In such a slaughter, the head is deliberately held up and back in order to open the veins and arteries for maximum blood flow. That's why.

Where's the blood? Where's the SHARP blade? :shrug:

[QC]

150. OK, that's a plausible explanation.

I wasn't sure how we got from point A (this is how Muslims slaughter livestock) to point B (so they must kill people the same way). I think you make an interesting case.

Of course, we in the U.S. use bolt guns (and sledgehammers in the past) to kill livestock, yet we never, even in the bad old days, used those methods to execute people. (Of course, one could argue, as I would, that things like gas and electrocution are worse.)

Another interesting point is that Islam prescribes stoning for some offenses, and this is still practiced in some places, like Afghanistan, Iran, and Nigeria. No one could ever argue that stoning is humane or painless, so I'm not sure we can argue that Islam, or at least the fundamentalist variety, always and everywhere requires that executions be painless.

[VolcanoJen]

140. TN, that is a *crucial* point.

One I certainly hadn't thought of.

I have not seen the video, and I will not. It's too much for me. I trust the accounts of various DUers who have seen the video. It certainly seems to me that the man in the video was already dead at the time of the beheading.

Finally... will the press question the DoD, and ask them why they continue to insist Berg was never in US custody, despite the mounting evidence that shows he was?? Too much about this story stinks to high heaven, and I'm starting to think that the DoD/CIA/FBI/OGA wish they'd never started the spinning to begin with.

[NashVegas]

182. Did They Plan on Eating Him?

I'm sorry TN, not trying to be gratuitously gross here, or overly argumentative. But is kosher/halal required for something one doesn't plan on turning into a feast?

[TahitiNut]

189. That's a common misconception.

In this specific case, it's about the suffering not the eating. It would apply, for example, even if the animal were sacrificed.

Clearly, to kill gratuitously would also be prohibited so the only reason its use as food comes into it is because there'd be no other rationale for killing in the first place.

But the point I make isn't so much about intent as it is about the portrayal of methods with which herdsman and ranchers are familiar. Why even engage in the kabuki (hide the knife, come from behind, etc.) of halal?

[Tinoire]

194. Maybe we should dig up old Halal/Kosher threads?

Back from the days when we had more mundane things to worry about such as preventing animal suffering during the slaughter process?

That was anything but Halal in this case ;)

You're right, it's appalling.

Those fidgetting freaks had propably never severed a head before.

Zarqawi, whose face is known all over the world, in a ski-mask indeed! A ski mask, a rotten accent, amateur, milk fed fidgetters surrounding him as opposed to the muscle-tone toned warriors with great posture who usually surround him.

Peace

[TahitiNut]

197. Who can even say the voice-over was spoken by the guy on camera?

After all, can we even see his lips move well enough? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.


The Book of Leviticus has quite a few rules, as does the Qu'ran, most of which have little or nothing to do with food (which is just a subset of what 'kosher' or 'halal' covers). Oh well.

[bearfartinthewoods]

159. i did not say the neck was severed in one stroke!!!

sheeeesh...can anyone read anymore? i said if the blood vessel was cut through with one stroke, there would be less pressure...less power in the flow that if it had been just nicked.

and his head wasn't sawed off. it was cut with repeated strokes of a knife.

i think the first couple cut through the esophagus which is why the blood began to flow from the mouth. about the third or fourth cut, they hit the artery which is when the blood pool begins to form.

btw...if he was dead, how is it he was able to raise his hips off the ground during the ordeal. one of the murderers has a hold of his shoulders so i grant that any shoulder movement could be caused by the murderer moving Berg. BUT.....the murderer also has his knee in the small of Bergs back, yet Berg manages to raise his hip off the floor.

how does a dean man do that?

[diamondsoul]

171. I understood what you were saying.

Again, sorry for my tone, I'm not getting bitchy with you on a personal level.

I'm not sure I agree with your observations is all. It looks like sawing around the soft tissue to me, however I'll confess my video viewers are far from high-tech. In spite of that, the motion of the person doing the cutting did not appear to cross the carotid the way you're suggesting. I gather you saw something differently?

Also, I have a REALLY hard time watching his body while the decapitation is happening, and I don't think I noticed his hips rising off the floor. I was paying more attention to his face for the most part.

I've watched the video 3 more times in the past 10 minutes now and what you describe as blood coming from his mouth, there is no evidence of when the head is held up. Nothing on his lips, nothing on his face at all in the way of blood. You may well have seen something I missed, but overall the whole film looks and sounds....just not quite right. Do you see what I mean??

[Terran]

86. I haven't watched it but...

everyone agrees that it was NOT one stroke, they sawed his head off. So you appear to have proved my point with your hose analogy, no?

[lumpy]

106. Anyone with half a brain

knows there would be plenty of blood if the victim were alive. A garden hose doesn't have a beating heart spurting out water.

[DS1]

195. right, there'd be at least a 2 foot radius of blood on the floor

[troublemaker]

207. at least

[Tinoire]

129. Your words

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

Did you watch the video? The 'hose' was not cut in two with one stroke.

Watch the video and think of your analogy again. There should have been blood all over the place... Take it from a country girl who's seen hogs get their throats sliced.

[bearfartinthewoods]

164. i worked on the kill floor of a slaughter house for two years

were the pigs hanging from their heels?

[Kazak]

41. A body is still dead,

even if you sever the head *after* the body has died, no?

[sangh0]

48. Missing the point

No one has disputed the FACT that this man was decapitated. What is being disputed is whether or not the video shows him being decapitated WHILE HE WAS STILL ALIVE.

That may be a difficult issue for those who can't fistinguish between the video being a fake (a possibility), and the murder being a fake (definitely not a fake)

[0007]

78. Got a link to the "actual coroner report" ?

[Tinoire]

122. Coroner? What coroner? You've been watching too much FOX news

That's about the only place I don't watch & no one else has mentioned a coroner before.

[stickdog]

137. What ACTUAL coroner? You know the guy?

Or do you simply always trust the official story?

[Warpy]

4. That was my impression, also

I've seen carotids rupture as a result of either cancer or infection. They don't gush, they spray. The carotids are narrow vessels close to the heart, and the blood is under tremendous pressure. Even directing the first cut carotid toward the floor would have produced enough spray to soak the executioner. It didn't.

I think he was likely strangled quickly just prior to the decapitation.

This doesn't detract from the fact that the Berg family has lost a son and brother, and that even postmortem, the whole thing was horriffic.

However, there are a lot of questions surrounding who he really was and why he was really in Iraq and who the executioners really were.

I've heard the official story and don't buy a word of it.

[Quahog]

5. Let's see...

They found Berg's headless body. Then they found Berg's bodyless head. What further proof of authenticity do you need?

I watched the video, couldn't make out whether the quantity of blood was copious or whether it was spurting. Seemed like a pretty huge pool of it on the floor. But I also noticed that Berg did not seem to be struggling or even moving during the decapitation.

I hope he was killed some other way first. But at the end of the day, does it really matter? He was murdered and decapitated. Are we really supposed to feel better because the murder and decapitation weren't synchronous?

[camero]

11. No we're not

But murder and decapitation does raise questions about whether it was a staged event or not.

There are more questions than answers in this whole thing.

[asjr]

26. How did they know where to "find the body?"

Did the "terraists" call them on a cell phone and tell them? I don't even have on my hat and I question it.

[QC]

30. Even in Baghdad, one would assume, a headless body

would attract some attention. It's the sort of thing people would notice.

[zbdent]

35. Somewhere on DU, I saw a response to the effect . . .

after the video was announced, somebody here said something like

"I wonder if that's the body they found on the bridge . . ."

Meaning that there was apparently a headless body found on before the knowledge of the video was made widespread.

[maddezmom]

53. I think that was my post: but there wasn't a lot of time between postings

I posted this on 5/11/04 11:58 ET
Body found on Baghdad overpass identified as that of American
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040513.wnazi0513/BNStory/International
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And then this was posted on 5/11/04
Video Seems to Show Beheading of American

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=547443

[0007]

81. A well traveled road perhaps?

[0007]

92. Who planted the body?

[Quahog]

96. Define "staged event"

You mean, it was a dummy? Berg lost his head some other way, and this was special FX? What do you mean by "staged?"

[camero]

118. Beheading an already dead person

is a "staged event" intended for propaganda purposes. And ask yourself who benefits from this the most.

IIRC, mutilation is a violation of Islamic Law. Execution is not.

[Nederland]

188. No difference

Beheading an alive person is also a "staged event" intended for propaganda purposes. I fail to understand why you think the distinction is relevant.

[camero]

190. a small difference

That goes to credibility.

One is using beheading to generate an emotional reaction.

The other is really killing someone by beheading.

I agree that both could be staged events, but the poster asked me to define it, which I did my best to do.

[rooboy]

14. Yes, I would feel better...

decapitating a dead body is just mutilation of a corpse, which is not inflicting any pain or terror on the victim. Sawing the head off a still-living person is much more vicious and inhumane.

If you ever get the chance to cut my head off, I would prefer to be dead first.

[Bunny]

18. To me, it does matter.

If Nick were my brother, I would take some comfort in knowing that he was dead before the decapitation. I've not seen the video,and don't intend to. I'll take the word of others who have seen it. It was apparently gruesome. Although I would deeply mourn his death, it would matter to me to know that he did not suffer through having his head sawed off with a knife, in a long and excrutiating process. yes, it would matter.

[Terran]

47. Why is this so difficult to perceive?

If the decapitation was staged on an already dead body, it calls into question who did this and why. We're being told it's al Qaeda that did this, but why would al Qaeda need to fake this act?

[RobinA]

56. Maybe Because

al-Qaeda (or whoever) is people too, and probably just as horrified at the idea of sawing a live guy's head off as any freedom-loving, god-loving American? To me, that would be the the simplest reason to fake a video like this.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. have you watched the video?

if he is dead before they started cutting off his head, why is his body moving the way it is. you can see the point where the body goes slack for pete's sake.

[Terran]

89. No, I have not

I understand the body twitches once after the head is off, but that could easily be faked by one of those five nudging it. I also understand that Berg is strangely immobile *while* his head is being sawed off. Not a situation you'd normally sit still for, is it?

[QC]

90. He's not immobile.

I keep hearing that, but he clearly stiffens his body when they hold him down and start cutting.

[Tansy_Gold]

196. Reply to posts #89 and #90

Both of you watched the video and both of you came away with different impressions of what happened. One says Berg was immobile, one says he wasn't. I'm not going to quibble about the details.

What I will point out, however, is that too many people here are drawing conclusions not from EVIDENCE but from their subjective interpretations of ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

The evidence itself doesn't change -- but viewers have different opinions of whether there's blood or not, whether there's a lot of blood or a little. Whether he moved or was jostled by his killers.

THIS WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF A COURT OF LAW, and you ain't even close to gettin' there.

People who don't speak Arabic are saying the accents sound phoney. How many people who are making these statements know ANYTHING about Arabic dialects?

once again,

sheesh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. your understanding is flawed

he is raising his pelvis off the ground, fighting/bucking, despite the guy who has his knee on Berg's back.

i have to say that for anyone to express an opinion on this without having seen it themselves seems .........

[diamondsoul]

161. Again, I HAVE seen the video.

Berg does not appear to be struggling the way I know I would if someone were sawing through my neck. EVERY BIT of the motion I saw on Berg's part can be attributed to the brute force being used to remove his head from his body.

Tell me this, IF he was alive, WHY is his face so devoid of blood spatter when it's held up for the camera? Take a good look at the angle of the men holding the body and tell me you wouldn't expect to see SOME blood sprayed onto his face during the removal not to mention SOME blood sprayed onto the men holding him down. There is absolutely ZERO arterial spray and, Bear, that ain't possible if the heart pumps even once.

I considered the possibility of his being strangled unconscious first and the apparent motion being reflexive struggling but even that doesn't fit the extreme lack of arterial spray.

[Joanne98]

72. Maybe it was Blackwater guys

really tin foil.:)

[0007]

80. I view it also and I agree

Berg's supposedly body looked more like a dummy. This did not look real to me.

[Tansy_Gold]

185. "This did not look real to me."

Okay, tell me, then, from your extensive personal experience, what do real beheadings look like?

In nine out of every ten cases that you've observed, how does the living body move during the process?

If you aren't an expert, if you don't have experience, you're just going on what you think, what you imagine, what you've seen in freakin' movies, what you WANT TO BELIEVE BECAUSE IT FITS YOUR FEARS.



GMAFB


Tansy Gold, havin' a Randi moment there, sorry.

[stickdog]

145. 1) We don't know for sure that he was murdered, just that he's dead.

2) More importantly, we don't know who did it.

[SideshowScott]

7. Im still not sure..But something does smell about the whole thing..

I will admit i never saw the video just still shots..And one thing that struck me was that the way the people were standing around berg that they would be coverd in blood when they did it.. BUT they were wearing black and we know that Berg is dead. He could have already been dead when they did it. Im no tinfoil hat person but somthing is kinda fishy about the whole thing.. Perhaps watching the horrific the act was so trumatic to us that we NEED to belive that it could be faked..Anyway its still horrible and if it was not for Bush's vanity war, Berg and over 700 americans would be alive today and thats the main thing.
ON EDIT: There is nothing wrong with asking questions..Sometimes the timing is off but with these guys who are running things who are nothing but crooks everying needs to be questioned and studied. Im still wondering WHO did it..

[mmonk]

8. I believe he was killed

immediately before the beheading also, because anyone familar with crime scenes will tell you their first impression was that they were amazed at the amount of blood in the human body (quotes from CSI people). Does it really matter? Its gruesome enough.

[havocmom]

21. It matters a lot to know the truth

Dead before the decapitation? The event was staged for shock value either way. The question is, WHO staged it? If Berg was already dead before the cameras rolled, he didn't get a chance to say anything to spoil the photo op, did he? That is why it matters to know the truth. If he was dead before, who was holding him in that orange jumpsuit and didn't want anyone to hear his last words?

It matters a great deal, especially when we live in an era controlled by puppet masters who know no loyalty except to their own stinking hides.

[Bozita]

9. one-fourth of the body's blood is servicing the head at any given moment

IIRC.

[LoverOfLiberty]

15. Wow

that almost sounds pornographic

[rooboy]

19. So if it was staged, it was staged by the neocons...

because a neocon's head has much, much less blood servicing it. Hence the error in creating the crime scene.

[Spoon]

12. The most vicious part was not in the video, the part where

it would have been "spraying". There certainly was plenty of blood on the ground.

If Iraqi's/Al Queda did it, they would have just beheaded him. If the CIA/DOD did it, they would have just beheaded him. Would the doc venture to say that it was just Berg and his Iraqi buddies faking it?

[SidDithers]

46. How can you say what the captors would or wouldn't have done?

I'm not defending this act, so please don't take this the wrong way.

If the beheading was meant to send a message, that's not inconsistent with the fact that Berg may have been killed before the beheading. I'm not even going to speculate on who did it. Perhaps they showed some mercy to their captive by killing him before sawing at his neck.

Sid

On Edit: As posted below by another poster, murder is still murder, however it is accomplished.

[ArkDem]

13. What is the latest on UFO sightings? Rense is the best

source I've ever seen for those.

[immoderate]

16. Raul Castro Guevera????

Maybe.

--IMM

[QC]

68. Is he friends with Mao Pol Pot Ho? n/t

[ant]

17. I saw the video

First of all, the quality was kind of crappy so I'm not sure the "conclusions" being made in this article are really possible. When it comes time to do the killing, the camera moves around a lot and things get really jolty. There were several people screaming, I'm sure Berg was one of them, but he probably wasn't the only one. The minute they grabbed him and put him on his side was when the screaming began, and that makes perfect sense. I think by that point he had figured out what was happening.

And I do think there was a lot of blood - it turns out a decapitation is a lot harder than I had imagined - but again, given the quality of the video that conclusion is based on the fact that the ground surrounding the area where they were carving around his head was of a different color than the rest of the floor and resembled the shape of a puddle.

I'd have to watch it again to comment more, and I'm not interested in doing that.

[tnlefty]

24. That's not what I saw because originally I didn't intend to watch the

worst of it. The hellish audio kicked in prior to anyone touching him or his body moving and I stood up to turn the speakers down, trying to figure out what was going on and when I looked back at the computer screen it was becoming obvious what was going on.

[ant]

97. well

Most of the video was a lot of reading from whatever piece of paper, so I fast forwarded through most of that, and then all of sudden the yelling started and they reached for him, or they reached for him and then the yelling started, or they reached for him as the yelling started....

My point was the yelling was not confined to the moment of the decapitation but that does not mean the CIA killed Berg. It's actually a pretty meaningless thing.

My other point was that anyone could be yelling in the video and, in fact, I believe several were. It wasn't just Berg, so I don't see how you would know (A) how any one particular scream is in synch with anything or (B) what any one particular scream should be in synch with.

[tnlefty]

134. And I was merely stating an observation

Others:

At 2:44:33 there is an audible - no don't hurt me - and the guy still has the paper in his hands reading.

At 2:44:39 he hands the paper off to the person at his left and pulls the knife.

At 13:34:48 Mr. Berg is pulled to his side.

Is it possible that a '1' isn't showing up against the lighter background? I don't know.

Why the center time numbers change from 44 to 34 I don't know.

Is there any significance to the audio not being in synch with the video? I don't know enough about how computers handle audio and video to know so I don't know. Could the audio have been dubbed in? I don't know.

Apparently all I do know is that from observations that I've made there's a lot that I don't know or understand.

[ant]

165. it seems, then...

...that if this was done by the CIA, or some other nefarious organization, they are incredibly incompetent. Not only can they not effectively dub a video, they don't seem to have a problem releasing a terribly dubbed video. (Though I'm sure some of the stronger pro-conspiracy types will quickly remind me that it's important to make the job look unprofessional so people like me will question it...)

Anyway,

Is there any significance to the audio not being in synch with the video? I don't know enough about how computers handle audio and video to know so I don't know. Could the audio have been dubbed in? I don't know.

All very different from claiming this proves the video is a fake, which the original article did. There's a world of difference between "that's odd" and "that proves he was already dead."


Observations are fine, but let's not go crazy jumping to conclusions.

[tnlefty]

178. FWIW I found another area in the tape where the time changes and I

truly don't know what to make of it.

In the very beginning Mr. Berg is sitting in the chair stating who he is and the shot is from a side angle (his left side). The time is around 13:26:24.

The camera changes to a frontal shot and he's still reciting info., but the time has changed to around 2:18:35.

This truly has me puzzled.

[ant]

198. you know what I was thinking...

...so the voice is allegedly that of that Zu-whatever guy, and the claim is that that's him in the video killing Berg.

Now, couldn't it be possible that for some reason, this guy and his buddies wanted the US to think he killed Berg but he couldn't actually do it - maybe he's hiding out somewhere and can't get out, too many US troops around, whatever.

So, he tapes the audio portion, they tape the video portion, and then they put them together.

I know the CIA came out today saying the voice was that of Zu-whatever, but I don't know if you can do any sort of analysis on a video collected online to disentangle audio/video portions and determine whether or not they're from the same source. It's pretty obvious that the two don't match up, and I would hope that's something the analysts noticed and considered.

Whoever put the stuff together could've just had an audio that they had to create video for, so they filmed what they could, then edited it up to match the audio as best as possible, and there you go. Perhaps shutting the camera on/off reset the times so that's why the stamps are all out of order.

I'm still lacking a clear motive on this theory - I guess having the murder committed by a top official is symbolic and all, but that's the best I can do.

Anyway, just a thought that came to me this afternoon.

[soothsayer]

20. That would explain the weird timestamp probs

were he killed beforehand. Or maybe they killed him as we see on the video, and then later decide they should behead the dead body. Don't know.

But this story is verrrrry bizarre.

[Sgt. Peppers]

22. As a Red Cross worker, I never count out anything

Never underestimate anyone at anytime. Their are many things to consider. Including are the terrorist who they say they are, that can lead to more questions. I don't know if it is real, but I know I do not trust any of the Bush administration, noe do I trust our Middle Eastern participants. WHo can trust anyone these days huh.

[Fleshdancer]

29. Hey! You're one of those "human rights do gooders!"

Thank you for your wonderful work. :toast:

[nolabels]

69. Sometimes you can't even trust the Red Cross, but that is another story

If it's a thing made by humans, it's bound to have human faults

I applaud you and thanks for telling how it works


http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol3/v3n20hri_body.html
Human Rights and Intelligence Reform

Volume 3, Number 20
July 1998

by Carlos Salinas, Amnesty International
Editors: Tom Barry (IRC) and Martha Honey (IPS)
Key Points

* International law prohibits extrajudicial killings, "disappearances," torture, and ill-treatment under any circumstances, but these are frequent in the intelligence arena.
* The CIA is only one of many components of the vast U.S. intelligence community, which has an annual budget of more than $26 billion.
* Secrecy around intelligence activity has resulted in the public’s ignorance about the magnitude and type of intelligence operations and has prevented meaningful participation in this area of government.

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has long been associated with the overthrow of governments and the installation of bloody military regimes. Examples include the unseating of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, the overthrow of Guatemalan President Arbenz in 1954, the failed invasion of Cuba in 1961, and the toppling of Chilean President Allende in 1973. The overthrow of governments is only one cause for notoriety. Other factors include: the creation, training, and funding of foreign armies and insurgents such as the Laotian Hmong during the 1960s and the Nicaraguan contras and Afghani mujahideen during the 1980s; assassination attempts of foreign leaders such as Cuba’s Fidel Castro; giving LSD to unsuspecting U.S. citizens; and other "dirty tricks." There is a vast array of international legal instruments, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions, that prohibit extrajudicial executions, "disappearances," torture, and ill-treatment in any circumstance. Yet these violent overthrows and the operations of CIA-associated armed groups routinely involve such crimes.

The CIA is just one of many components of the U.S. intelligence community, which has an annual budget of more than $26 billion (just disclosed in 1997, due to a lawsuit). Composed of a vast array of interlocking agencies, the complexity of this community can hardly be summarized in an organizational chart. There are, first of all, about a dozen so-called "national" intelligence agencies, the foremost including: the CIA, charged with intelligence analysis, secret human intelligence gathering, and covert action; the Defense Intelligence Agency, which collects and produces intelligence at the Pentagon; the National Security Agency, tasked with obtaining signals intelligence (e.g. electronic eavesdropping) as well as breaking and creating codes; and the National Reconnaissance Office, which manages satellite collections. In addition, national intelligence is produced by components of each of the military branches; by small offices in the Departments of State, Energy, and Treasury; and by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Then there is "joint military intelligence," which includes numerous programs and agencies designed to provide intelligence for defense-wide military requirements. Finally, there is "tactical" intelligence, comprising hundreds of programs in various agencies that are intended to provide intelligence support to military commanders on the battlefield.

This multifaceted intelligence network gathers information about topics or human "targets," often without the knowledge of the target and managed so that the target remains unaware. This is especially the case with signals intelligence such as electronic eavesdropping. In other cases, intelligence is gathered directly from foreign officials or other individuals who have agreed to provide the human intelligence information in exchange for financial or other compensation. Information is also obtained and exchanged formally through liaison relationships with foreign intelligence agencies.

Covert action is yet another intelligence operation. Not limited to gathering information, a covert action is any operation in which the hand of the U.S. is to remain hidden. A key concept for such actions is that of plausible deniability—the ability of the president to disavow any U.S. knowledge of involvement in the action. The legal basis for covert actions is derived from the National Security Act of 1947, which states that as part of its role the agency will perform "other functions and duties related to intelligence…"
(snip)

[Q]

23. It might be important to the TRUTH...

...that we know exactly WHY and HOW this poor man was executed. This man was obviously dead before he was beheaded. It might be a minor detail...but as someone mentioned above...it might help his family to cope knowing he didn't suffer a slow beheading.

- There is also an eleven hour gap in the video. What does this mean? It may provide even more evidence that there was a period of time between the reading and the execution. It may provide hints as to why this was staged to LOOK like a live execution.

[Aries]

25. "Video Oddities" (Agonist)

http://www.agonist.org/archives/015633.html#015633

Video oddities

...There are plenty of questions raised concerning the video too. The body is completely motionless even as the knife is brought to bear – not so much as an instinctive wriggle.

More graphically, some claim that cutting the throat's artery would cause a significant amount of blood. But little emerges and when the head was raised – not a drop of blood is seen to fall.

In a possible explanation, one discussion room member suggested that Berg was killed and then beheaded later.

However, the circumstances of the video release are also strange. A Reuters journalist in Dubai first named the Muntada al-Ansar al-Islami website as the source for the video – at www.al-ansar.biz.

Although the site has now been shut down, Aljazeera.net had looked at the site within ninety minutes of the story breaking – and could find no such video footage.

But Fox News, CNN and the BBC were all able to download the footage from the Arabic-only website and report the story within the hour....

[mumon]

51. exactly

I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have struggled.

[truebrit71]

27. Whilst I have reservations about the "Doctor"..it does make sense

From the outset this video has looked very suspicious, not least of which is the continual jumping of the time stamp. There is a time jump of ELEVEN hours between when it appears that the beheading starts and when it is actually finished leading me to believe that Berg was killed by some other means, and THEN his head was cut off. Some might argue that that is just semantics but I suggest that it is a DELIBERATE attempt to inflame an already highly highly inflammatory visual image.

Also, if he actually WAS being beheaded alive, why could you hear the screams? Surely as soon as the knife severed the vocal chords all sound whould cease? No?

I remain unconvinced that this was done by those the US Government would have us believe it was done by.....

[Mike Daniels]

32. Wow. One testimony listed in the article

and we're supposed to take this as the gospel truth that the thing was faked.

Man, it's amazing that people will dismiss articles that support an opposing POV because of unnamed or limited sources and then will flip around and support another article with no more evidence or testimony as the unrefutable truth just because it supports what they want to believe.

I'm not dismissing anything at this time as anything is possible but I do think rampant partisanship really does cloud the mind at times and cause it to act in inconsistent ways.

[yardwork]

43. I don't see anybody saying anything is "gospel" here

People are raising legitimate questions. I don't understand why that gets other people so upset.

Nobody is excusing the murder, torture, or desecration of another human being. I have not seen one post here or anywhere that excuses this or downplays it (unlike the Republican response to the atrocities in Iraq, which are being downplayed disgracefully).

What we are asking - and I have asked on other threads - are legitimate questions about a video that presents with numerous discrepancies.

We want to know the truth. The real truth. We don't want to get sidetracked with horror or sadness. We want to stay focused on the facts, because that way lies justice for the murdered and abused.

[Q]

59. The 'doctor' isn't saying the death was 'faked'...

...just that the scene was 'staged' and that the victim wasn't alive when he was executed. What this means is anyone's guess.

[amazona]

33. well maybe but...

...there is no getting around that the family were told that his head was cut off before the video emerged so it seems like a heck of a coincidence. I'm not watching the thing so I'm not the best judge.

[TahitiNut]

36. Let's try to remember that the clear intent of the video itself ...

... is/was NOT the same as the killing of Berg. The posturing of the 'terrorists,' the edited nature of the video, the timing, and the manner of distribution all point to a tactical use of revulsion and fear in a shifting battle of reaction and stampede - of mass/media attention.

There has never been a doubt in my mind that Berg was dead at the instant the knife sliced his throat. At the same time, there has never been a doubt in my mind that the beheaded corpse was provided solely to give superficial veracity to the video. Why not cremate or mutilate the corpse? See?

I suspect Berg was selected as a victim sheerly due to his apparent 'innocence'. These people didn't choose to depict the slaughter of a soldier or someone else with some superficially apparent 'guilt.' That's NOT what al-Qaida does - it doesn't serve their 'interests.'

So, the question seems to be who would be motivated to depict this in the manner it ws depicted?

Cui bono? Who benefits?

[BigMcLargehuge]

75. to quote Dumas' "The Count of Monte Cristo"

"to find the guilty one, seek he who profits most."

I don't see the video as profiting ANYONE but the tumor residing in 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The precedent for kidnappings in Iraq has been, like with the Japanese aid workers and South Korean missionaries, videos released of live captives, then demands, then negotiations. To release the post decapitation video (live or dead makes no difference) is counter to either Iraqi resistance or Al-Qaeda goals in that country (i.e. expell American forces and take control of the government make it democratic/expell American forces take control of government and make it theocratic.).

Of course there is always the Occams Razor argument, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one, but there are so many layers and facets to this video that even the simplest answers require navigating a series of unanswered questions.

I am not a tinfoil hat guy, believe me, but I am not a gullible idiot either. If I were a betting man, I know where I'd put my money.

[TahitiNut]

127. Some things seem even more obvious than what's claimed.

First and foremost, it seems obvious that the purpose of killing Berg was to create the video. No other purpose seems served. Why Berg? Why not someone else? (Perhaps those who killed Berg didn't have access to the other hostages! Think about it.)

Next, it seems clear that the video was constructed (and edited) to make the killing even more horrific than it was. This makes the tactical intention of the video even clearer - it was intended to appear even more horrific than those who made it were able to truthfully create. To what audience? Well, who assumes they're the audience? US. And what behavior does it seem to motivate?

The body was dumped where it would be found solely in order to give credibility to the video. There's no other explanation. It was just like advance publicity.

I don't believe the costumes in the video any more than I believe the costumes on Halloween. I believe there're far too many people "For Hire" in that region - and far too much money in the pockets of some to hire them.


Absolutely none of the above involves "tin foil" in any way whatsoever.

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[TahitiNut]

42. Off-topic.

:silly:

[EV1Ltimm]

40. said that yesterday.

where's my cookie dammit?!

but the findings are neither here nor there. berg was still beheaded. berg was still murdered.

[shanti]

49. beheaded, yes, but not necessarily murdered by beheading

i believe NOTHING these people put out there!

[Gregorian]

44. I am now wearing a foil hat.

I also thought everyone was being way too skeptical. Then I found that his name was on a freerepublic hate list, among other facets of strangeness surrounding this event. I feel remiss in not watching the video, now. Being somewhat knowledgable in cardiology, I knew what to expect from the so-called beheading, and didn't wish to see it. But it appears that what would have happened was not to be. Now that is odd.

On an interesting note, Al Jazzera picked up our tinfoiling-

http://news.google.com/url?ntc=0M1A0&q=http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm

[KC]

65. From

that website...

Underneath the picture of Nick it says...
Some claim the face in the video looks remarkably unlike Nick Berg

That was my first thought too, that the pictures of Nick in the orange jump suit clip, didn't look anything like any of the other pictures of Nick.

KC

[Fla Dem]

45. Okay, so even if it was a staged beheading after Berg

was already dead, what difference does it make. So the terrorist beheaded a dead man. They obviously staged it for the ultimate impact. But does that mean they had an ounce of humanity and killed him first so he wouldn't suffer the agony of beheading? It was still cold blooded murder no matter how you slice it. I don't understand the points being made by all the angst over whether he was dead or alive at the time of the beheading. Dead is dead. Or do some people think he was never killed. I'm having a hard time getting my arms around the issues. Would someone help me out with this.

[Dees]

50. I agree. Before, after, spliced tape...

what does it matter? Dead is DEAD. Who? Not sure. Probable terrorist
activity. Cowards for sure.

[radwriter0555]

55. It means he was killed by blackwater security.

Not crazed islamo-fascist al queda freaks.

[Joanne98]

77. Bingo.

:)

[Fla Dem]

82. Are you implying a US ordered killing.....

for what purpose?

-To deflect American and world criticism away from the prisoner torture scandal?

-To suggest what went on in the prison wasn't so bad, because look what these people are capable of?

-or some other reason?

[Joanne98]

88. Both and the Blackwater guys like to kill. They're mercenaries.

:)

[Az]

58. It is confusing but the discrepancies are there

Decyphering the cause of them is troublesome. Remember there are not just two players in this game. There are all sorts of irons in this fire. We simply don't know and what we are being told/shown does not add up.

My leaning is still towards Chalibi or some 3rd party with an interest in the matter. Alqaeda doesn't really seem to benefit as much from this. The Iraqi's are not buying it either. The hoods combined with identifying themself just doesn't make sense.

[Q]

61. It means that those who 'beheaded' him may not have killed him...

...which is supported by the time lapse on the video. That's the problem with seeing a video like this out of context and not knowing the surrounding circumstances.

- It was obviously a fake in that it was staged as a live execution when it wasn't. That leads to other implications that can't be known without further investigation.

[TrogL]

57. That makes a certain amount of sense

If you tie this in with the timecodes on the video.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

60. This is what we were talking about ,TrogL

We weren't accusing blindly, or suggesting that the executioners were a different race, just that the video is not exactly what we're told it is. I believe we should challenge everything purporting to be from Al Queda. They're not the most reliable of sources.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

63. I agree with the questions raised in the article. When I watched,

the main things that struck me (in the version I saw):

1. Screaming starts well before any movement of Berg or the hooded men. Problems with synch of audio track and video in editing? Someone else screaming before the act?

2. The business about spurting blood occurred to me as well (I'm a physician). Sawing off the head of a living person, you would expect to see significant amount of spuring and arterial spray from at least the first carotid artery being cut. Lots of blood pools on the floor in the vid, but it did strike me, how "clean" from arterial blood the whole process appeared. Particularly with a victim who would likely be writhing around if alive.

3. Grainy quality and somewhat "unreal" appearance of Berg during the recitation. There seemed to be little or no movement from him, and given the grainy vid, would seem possible that his image was doctored.

Now, apparently his decapitated body was recovered, so he apparently was decapitated. I think it's very possible that the video captured what it appears to capture, but there are a lot of questions raised about whether it is doctored for shock effect (i.e. they decapitated a guy who was already dead etc.)

I don't assume anything. I don't buy into every conspiracy theory either. But this story has 5 billion questions, regarding the video, the Bergs, the circumstances of Berg's confinement(s?), the nature of what he was doing there, that it raises with the slightest scrutiny, the very LEAST of which is the "convenient timing" for shrubco.

[Nadienne]

111. I wonder if it was

made less gruesome (than, for instance, a real execution) in order to increase the likelihood that it would be aired on US television...

[bmbmd]

115. When I was on the trauma service as a medical student

a couple of the surgeons got into a discussion regarding how far blood would spurt following instantaneous decapitation. Speculating a young man with normal vascular resistance and a blood pressure of 120/80, utilizing LePlace's formulae they calculated that blood would be ejected tow feet vertically or eight feet horizontally at sea level. Amazing what you talk about during a case...

[librechik]

66. there are apparently different versions of the tape--some have blood

some don't. Perhaps this guy saw the tape that DUers agreed showed little blood. Other DUers saw the other tape AFTER seeing the bloodless one and changed their minds about the validity of the death on tape.

I haven't looked at either one, so I'm just sayin...

[Spazito]

73. That is interesting in itself...

Are there two videos out there showing different things? If both videos show the beheading, why would one show a relatively bloodless one and the other show blood?

[Joanne98]

79. The one I saw didn't have any blood.

[QC]

83. The one I saw shows a large pool of something dark under his neck. n/t

[Iceburg]

85. Sorry, I don't buy it! I picked up the several videos and viewed

them all. No were no discrepancies in the collection I picked up. No DUer to my knowledge have stated that they saw any spray or spurting of blood, although some do state (as do I) to a small pool of what is presumably blood. Please cite a link if supporting your comment possible.

My wife is a doc (neurologist) and she viewed the video yesterday and stated that the grainy quality and jittery camera operation make it impossible to conclude that there is/was no blood splatter. Further, she stated one would expect severe blood loss UNLESS the victim was already dead. If we exclude the scenarios postulated about a significant time lag between Berg in his last upright position to the moment of beheading (the most likely scenario), she posed one remote possibility in which the blood loss would be greatly reduced-- that of putting extreme pressure on the carotid artery could cause the heart to cease to pump almost immediately causing instant death.

Regarding the audio -- (if we put aside that the audio is minimally 10 secs out of sync with the visual, and consider only the audio track) she stated the "gasping, gurgling sounds" which are faint but audible, are not inconsistent with that type of trauma to the trachea.

[librechik]

102. repeat, I didn't see any tape--here's the link where it's discussed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1578328

[ElementaryPenguin]

71. Likely a neocon hit. Probably takes true rage to saw a head off of a live

person - and (for perhaps American assailants) an American on top of it. It could be that this was one assignment that even tough, hard core Black Ops types had a little problem with. Instead, they perhaps drugged Berg, decapitated him somewhat surgically, and then "reinacted" the "horrific" act for a video camera. True jihad - Al Qaeda type American haters - would seem to have less problem going through with such a grizzly act (and perhaps considerably more experience with chopping off heads) then would an American simply doing it for a paycheck to support his family!

[Trajan]

167. An old quote ....

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction."
-- Blaise Pascal

[Guy_Montag]

76. Do we have any follow up to...

The Russian thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1591327&mesg_id=1591327&page=

[geek tragedy]

84. Voz de Aztlan

is a bigoted hate site--the hispanic version of Vanguard news or Stormfront.

Progressives should not be using it as a source of information, period.

[TNOE]

93. Link or Source for that information?

Information is information, I trust anyone or anything more than I trust this current government.

[geek tragedy]

94. Here's their website

http://aztlan.net/

They mostly hate Jews and homosexuals. And no, this is not one of those cases of people being anti-Israel but not anti-Jew.

They're bigots, pure and simple. They're also insane.

[QC]

100. WOW! Some really nasty stuff on that site.

Here's a prime example:

The Pharisees today fear that Mel Gibson's film about Jesus' last twelve hours on earth will unveil the truth about who really was responsible for the gruesome torture and execution of Jesus. Pontius Pilate wanted to spare the life of Jesus but the Jews would not allow it. When Pilate gave the Jewish High Priest and the mob of Pharisees a choice whether to release the criminal Barabbas or Jesus, they all yelled "Release Barabbas!" Pilate than asked the Jews what he should do with Jesus and they all yelled in unison, "Crucify him! Crucify Him!" The Roman Pontius Pilate said " I washed my hands" of the murder of Jesus and the Jews than yelled "His blood be upon us, and upon our children ".

The last utterance by the Jews, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children " has been a curse upon them for 2000 years. They have wondered the earth never finding a true home. They have been expelled by scores of host countries after the nations grew tired of putting up with their evil and sinful ways and their corruption of local cultures.

http://aztlan.net/judex_injustus.htm

[darkstar]

99. For those that have watched

the tape (I have not) is there more than one time stamp jump? I thought I'd read such?

Now, the thing that really has me puzzled. There was either a time gap or two indentical makes of cam were employed. Meaning editing required. That much seems certain. Who the hell is savvy enough to run fire wire into their laptop and edit in Premier (or across two cams) but not be able to figure out how to turn of the on-screen time display on the cam? Especially if you're trying to create an illusion of continuous time by subsequent editing?

Another one. How the hell does video get out of sync w/ audio and remain that way? It doesn't, in my experience, unless there is an overdub. And even then, if you can edit something so well that it appears real visually, then syncing the actual audio of same event captured on another source is not hard at all. At least not on PC. Cam to cam, no problems should appear, unless its an "audio only into cam" overdub.

In short, I'm with the it smells fishy crowd. But I have no theories. It just smells. "We're gonna edit the tape (this seems inarguable) so it looks like a continuous event but we're gonna roll tape with the time stamp on and not worry about our audio sync problems."

[BigMcLargehuge]

109. the CODEC can put the video out of synch too

and using even a simple tool like iMovie, you can strip the audio from a track, then place it on its own timeline and synch it anyway you want. and if you cut the audio from the combined track before editing the video, getting out of synch is very probable.

[MessiahRp]

191. Absolutely it can

I'm not standing up for it either way but from a technical standpoint I have captured a ton of videos and sometimes even the most perfect capture can throw the audio off in the final rendering stage. I don't know why it is that it comes out like that but there are tons of instances where that is the case.

The sounds not being perfectly aligned with all or even small parts of the captured video is not an issue. The blood may be harder to make an assumption on however.

Rp

[leftyandproud]

101. MY GOD PEOPLE!!!

It wasn't a fake...Jesus...You SEE Berg sitting there for five minutes before the actual event..looking around, wiggling his toes, looking at the camera...He is obviously alive...Then the guy pulls the knife from his shirt, knocks him over and begins to saw his neck off...Berg screams for about 15 seconds and his mouth is wide open about halfway through...I hate to be so graphic, but it is obvious that he was alive when they did it...and there was plenty of blood pouring out on the ground beneath where they were cutting his neck. He was face down and that is where the "squirting" was.

[QC]

105. Well, you have to be graphic, because

it seems that many or even most of the people commenting on the video haven't actually seen it. I know of no other way to explain all the statements that there's no blood, Berg doesn't move, etc.

[Joanne98]

113. Really. People need to watch the video. It looks funny to me.

[Gregorian]

108. Go visit some of the photoshop forums

You'll see just how it's done.
I don't have anything to win here. I'm just saying that it is very easy to fool people through editing techniques.

It could very well be the real thing. But we are attempting to fight a very serious battle that the conservatives have dumped on us for so long. Our country has a life of it's own. And the people have been lulled into believing just whatever they see and hear. We can't afford to be trusting anymore.

[TNOE]

128. Welcome to DU Gregorian

Really good posts - glad for your input

:hi:

[Gregorian]

147. Hey, thanks!

[truebrit71]

117. If that is the case, please explain the ELEVEN HOUR GAP

in the time stamp between the time the beheading 'starts' and when it is completed....

[Kusala]

184. delete

delete

[Justitia]

110. a middle of the road explanation?

Putting aside for the moment WHO might actually have done the killing and/or decapitation, I'm inclined to go with the theory that he was killed first, decapitated later. Based on:

video time lapse
lack of arterial blood spray
perceived lack of movement of the victim
audio / video mismatch (sounds occur before video)

We know "whoever" did the decapitation, did that nasty act for the psychological impact to the viewer.

Whether the victim was alive, or already dead, was not as important to them as inflicting the image on us.

The weird, tin-foil theories come into play when you begin to wonder the following:

"What if someone took advantage of an already bad situation (dead body) to create a new & different reality of the situation?"

:tinfoilhat:

[revcarol]

121. I thought it was suspicious too.

The only time I around a person bleeding to death from the jugular was when I was giving last rites to a car accident victim. So that's only once.

Rense is not necessarily a good or bad source. Tends heavily to conspiracy theories, but sometimes there IS a conspiracy.

Witholding judgment, but sickened nonetheless.

[Snellius]

126. How could Berg scream if his throat was immediately cut?

I didn't listen to the audio, but I read Berg's screams were blood-curdling.

[QC]

133. Try listening to the audio.

He does scream at first, but suddenly stops. There are gurgling sounds at the point where the screaming stops. Also, the audio on the whole thing appears to be out of synch.

[Iceburg]

130. I agree but here's another doc's opinion -- post#85 on this thread

[WoodrowFan]

125. so what

I cna find a Doctor that swears abortion causes breast cancer and that homosexuality is a "choice".


But so they cut his head off AFTER killing him. SO WHAT!


BTW, isn't Liberty Forum a RW site??

[MISSDem]

142. Nicole's head was almost cut off and there

was blood everywhere, so there should be blood everywhere in this case, too, right? But I haven't seen the video nor do I plan to. How can you watch something like that?

[diamondsoul]

173. It's VERY hard to watch the first time.

After I recovered from that overnight, I think I've been able to detach myself from the horror enough that I can watch it without flipping out now. I still have to look away if I look at it too many times in a row and sometimes have to go be with my kids to stop seeing it, but I can watch it and still maintain my reason.

[Spazito]

143. Why are US officials lying about him being in custody?

It turns out that a US diplomatic official sent the following e-mail to the family regarding their son:

To back its claims that Berg was in U.S. custody, the family showed The Associated Press an April 1 e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq.

snip

"I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly," the e-mail said.

In two e-mails later that day, Payne wrote that she was still trying to find a local contact for the family.

more

http://pennlive.com/newsflash/lateststories/index.ssf?/base/national-23/1084471751239910.xml

I can't think of any rational reason for them to ly about this unless they are hiding something, but what?

[Lou_C]

144. My computer went nuts when I clicked on the last link

Something is wrong with the last link.

[mtnester]

149. For those of you that don't think a live body bleeds A LOT

when the throat is cut, remember goalie Clint Malarchuk's hockey incident. His throat was CLEAN CUT with one swipe of a skate blade in 1989 during an NFL game.

WARNING WARNING WARNING - if you click the link at the end of this post, it will take you to a story about his accident, with a GRAPHIC still photo farther into the article. I say you bleed A LOT. If you want, see for yourself.

I also watched (not sure of which sports channel, was surfing and me and hubby had not seen this video before, so we watched the show) last week a retrospect on him since his accident, where they showed the actual live as it happened video. That video is almost impossible to find now. It was an ENORMOUS amount of blood, and the wound required 300 stitches to repair (miracle he lived, he grabbed into his own throat to stop the bleeding with his gloved hand.

I personally think the lack of blood in the Nick Berg video suggests he was already dead, however, someone did kill him someway, perhaps what we saw was a mutilation with off screen sound effects. Still sad, no matter how.

Story link - http://www.ubersite.com/m/32313

[Kusala]

180. hockey

That's a very good point. I saw that video fairly recently. He was spurting blood like crazy. I'd heard of this accident before, but since i'm not a huge hockey fan i couldnt remember if he died or not. I was sure, from watching the video, that he must have died. Then looked it up and found out he survived.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

151. WTF, is there a better source than Rense.com?

Rense.com and the opinion of a random DU'er don't differ much as far as reliable believability is concerned.

[QC]

155. Worse--rense is quoting a right wing hate site.

So let's see--we have a bigfoot/UFO site quoting an anti-semitic site, and this is supposed to constitute proof of something?

[bigbillhaywood]

153. Oh well then, he's a doctor. I saw a doctor on TV the other day selling

new miracle diet pills. Maybe I should buy some. Pardon the sarcasm. I think it's good to bring stuff like this up (it could be true), but this doctor's opinion doesn't mean much on its own. When you have a pre-established opinion, it is always likely you can find at least one "expert" to bolster your argument. Look at some murder trials-- expert defense and prosecution witnesses with impeccable credentials looking at the same evidence, but reaching vastly different conclusions. Then again, maybe the good doctor is right, but I wouldn't base much on this one opinion.

[gold_bug]

157. has anyone confirmed the doctor is real?

None of the links work for me and Google turns up nothing. For all I know someone just made up the doctor story to use as a false appeal to authority.

[QC]

162. Take a look at the site the doctor is quoted on.

It argues, among other things, that Jews should be persecuted because they killed Jesus, and John Kerry is a public menace because of his Jewish ancestry.

That place makes Free Republic look sane. It's not the kind of source that I would expect anyone at DU to consider credible.

[Lou_C]

158. Have you ever cut yourself by accident?

Blood squirts up and it doesn't clot immediately. Something is wrong with that video.

[Junkdrawer]

163. They'll do it better next time...

And as long as the Prisoner Abuse story is front and center, there will be a next time. Bank on it. :(

[Nadienne]

176. Ah, so that's the conspirators' motivation...

Silence the stories about the abuse in Iraq, or more will die...

Do Middle-Easterners depend so much on US news?

[Junkdrawer]

201. Al Qaeda: "WE WANT BUSH TO WIN: "

The statement said it supported U.S. President Bush in his reelection campaign, and would prefer him to win in November rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was not possible to find a leader "more foolish than you (Bush), who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom."

In comments addressed to Bush, the group said:

"Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilization."

"Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-03/18/content_315816.htm

One hand washes the other --- in blood.

[Q]

168. Hayzeus...you don't have to be a 'doctor'...

...to understand that one doesn't have their neck severed without a great amount of blood spurting from arteries. Too many here either haven't studied basic physiology or they're playing dumb.

- Forget the quoted doctor...the guy was dead when he was 'executed'.

- Not intending to go into gruesome detail here...but the head didn't drip a drop of blood when it was held up. You guys don't even know it when you're being scammed. Can we drop this subject now? It's giving me the willies.

[interceptor]

205. Riiight

Last I checked, A*V will still remain constant. What, did you think because it didn't look like Kill Bill, its not "real?"

You don't have to be a mechanical engineer to understand fluid mechanics and the relationship between cross sectional area and velocity. The wounds are too large for high velocity flow.

[varun]

169. New Scientist article about Beheading

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/article.jsp?id=lw719

Question
Does beheading hurt? And, if so, for how long is the severed head aware of its plight?

William Wild , Oxford

Answers
Yes, beheading hurts. How much depends on the executioner's skill, or lack of it.

When Mary, Queen of Scots, was executed at Fotheringay Castle in 1587, a clumsy headsman gave her three strokes without quite managing to sever her head. The headsman then had to saw though the skin and gristle with his sheath knife before the job could be regarded as complete. The profound, protracted groan Mary gave when the axe first hit left the horrified witnesses in no doubt that her pain was excruciating.

How long is the interval of consciousness after the head is severed? In France, in the days of the guillotine, some of the condemned were asked to blink their eyes if they were still conscious after the knife fell. Reportedly, their heads blinked for up to 30 seconds after decapitation. How much of this was voluntary and how much due to reflex nerve action is speculation. Most nations with science sophisticated enough to determine this question have long since abandoned decapitation as a legal tool....

more at:
http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/article.jsp?id=lw719

[2plus2is5]

179. Not nearly as edited as one would think...

I examined the video from start to finish and I noticed a few interesting things:

The time stamp when it first starts is 13:26. After a few moments, mid-sentence from Berg, it cuts to a time stamp of 2:16 (if I recall correctly). Then the hooded men begin to talk and once the kick him over, the screen cuts and the time stamp moves back into the 13:xx frame. A typical conspiracy theorist would probably think that it was a setup and each part was filmed separately. However, I believe there were two different cameras with two different timestamps, filming simultaneously. The editor just took the two feeds and edited them together, took the audio clip from one of the cameras, and did a quick dub over. The person probably really did not care if the dub was done correctly. Also, I through my film editing software, I moved back the audio to sync up with what actually was going on. It fits perfectly with every movement of the hooded men and Berg. I watch it closely and I DO see Berg struggling, constantly stiffening and unstiffening his body. I believe that the body was alive during its beheading. I think that if it were a conspiracy, there wouldn't be so many careless mistakes such as horrible editing with a bad audio dub. This oozes savageness. I don't think their message was to be conveyed in how well this video seemed to be real, but rather the fact that they did it. When one is committing this act, I highly doubt they are trying to make everything go perfect so that no one would think it is a conspiracy.

[Nadienne]

181. Indeed it would be

even more suspicious if it looked like a "we do this all the time" text-book execution. They didn't try to make this look high-quality realistic.

[Mountainman]

187. Why did you spend so much time doing this?

[2plus2is5]

202. Sorry

I'm actually going to take back my statement that it was one single filming. The 13:xx time frame camera jumps considerably from start to finish, as does the 2:xx camera. This leads me to believe that maybe he was killed by some other means after the first segment was taped, and then the camera was turned back on to decapitate the dead body. So, the 11 hour gap is really only 20 minutes, which seems a lot more understandable. By the way, it took me only several seconds to change the synch of the audio...this is because I work as an editor and producer of short films, and I deal with the software very much.

[Cronus Protagonist]

183. I've seen the slaughter of live sheep

And I can concur that there is simply not enough blood pumping in the video for the man to have been alive when they cut off his head. It comes out at least a foot or so in the air from a small sheep - a man would surely have just as much blood pressure.

However, he was alive earlier in the video, and he was dead when they cut off his head, so what difference does that fact make? He was still killed in between the first part of the video and the last part. I don't see anyone claiming the head they showed is not of the same man at the beginning of the video.

And there's still no certainty that it was Berg either.

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[Kusala]

186. Three things I thought were odd

while watching the video. I refuse to watch it again to double check. I think once was plenty enough.

1. I thought Berg looked surprisingly calm while reading and while listening to his captors read. I recalled from other captured prisoners that they are usually wide-eyed and the eyes dart around. I kept wondering if they'd somehow sedated him.

2. I noticed the timestamp was off. Thought that was odd.

3. When they pulled him off the chair, why did the camera suddenly go out of focus and get jumbled? It's not hard to just move a camera over. Isn't this right when the timestamp changes too? It's like the bad stop action movies I made as a kid with my friends and a cheap old VHS camcorder

[nomatrix]

192. When in Rome.......

From the little I know about the Middle East-Arab-Islam......

http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/saudi_mafia.htm#SA1

(I cannot vouch for anything on this site, but you'll love the picture at the beginning with bush and friends.)

This is from the book,
Lindsey, Gene, Saudi Arabia. New York: Hippocrene Books, 1991.

-snip-

"To Westerners, Saudi behaviour appears that of a paranoid schizophrenic. This is because the Saudi mind set is based on Bedouin values, and feelings about the West are ambivalent. Saudi behavior patterns differ from those in the West in eight major, interrelated areas: pride, sensitivity, distrust, emotionality, vengefulness, perception of time, intentionality and dishonesty." (Lindsey, p. 311)

He goes on to give multiple examples of each of these behavior patterns. A sample of his remarks on vengefulness are particularly significant.

"The Saudi mind set is programmed for vengeance. For thousands of years, the Bedouin khamsah was the vehicle for retaliation. When the Bedouin were converted to Islam the Sharia provided for retaliation as the 'right of man.' Retaliation is used to save or regain face, to right wrongs, and to get even. It is the motivation for verbal attacks, physical attacks, murder, raids, and war. If a Saudi feels that he has been insulted or slighted, he will seek revenge. It is his right, his tradition, and his duty!" (Lindsey, pgs. 316-317)"


Whether Berg was dead or alive when he was beheaded, he shouldn't have been there in the 1st place. (There has to be more in the story of why he was there.) Travel advisories were in effect for Americans in Iraq. Since he was not company sponsored and protected, he was treasure hunting in shark infested waters. I am not just referring to the locals. Towers & communications are BIG business.

I know people who worked in the Middle East. Adapting to their laws and cultures is mandatory, as it is in our country. Americans have been put in jail for something as minor as a woman sitting behind the steering wheel of a car. (She moved to get into the shade) The company noticed they had arrived at the airport, but hadn't shown up for work and found them in jail. They had to come bail them out, only after they were found.

The tape did succeed in taking the focus off of how we interrogated the captured under our regime.

[Mika]

199. Doctor Raul Castro Guevara???

n/t

[RhodaGrits]

206. Unless there is blood spraying from the carotid arteries

I would have to agree that what you are describing is not consistent with him being decapitated alive. I am a veterinarian and I've decapitated a lot of animals with a boning knife immediately after euthanasia to submit the heads for Rabies testing. There is a lot of blood that will pool from the jugular veins but there is no way you could saw the head off someone alive without the carotid arteries spraying blood several feet away.