Look, we had TEN choices

[sandnsea]

Count them, TEN. No matter which candidate won, supporters of the other 9 candidates would be disappointed. I thought Howard Dean sucked ass, BIG ass, but I can guarantee you I wouldn't be pouting if he'd won. I'd be doing whatever I could to help. The other candidates were more appealing to me, so I would have been more excited about them. But I would have been LONG OVER my own candidate.

Some people just need to grow up and accept that the world doesn't revolve around them and their views. That IS, in fact, what a democracy is. You cast your vote and accept the will of the majority.

Now, you can work your butt off to convince a majority that Kerry will be a great President or that Bush will be a horrifying disaster, doesn't matter which. But that's where we are right now, Bush or Kerry. The majority, in this democracy, will elect one or the other.

[NMDemDist2]

1. LOL Sand--- that makes WAY too much sense

what are you trying to do here? be a voice of reason?? </sarcasm off>

Loved it! great job!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. I'd vote for the dingleberries on any DU'ers ass before I would

vote for Bush...AND if the dingleberries on a DU'ers ass won the primaries...I would be out there saying "Vote for Dingleberry" and even put an "I'm with Dingleberry" sticker on my car.

I'd canvas my neighborhood with Dinglberry literature and contribute to Dingleberry.

There are plenty of good reasons to vote for the person most likely to beat Bush even if that fucking homophobic lunatic La Rouche took the primary.

Have I made my position clear?

[Generator]

6. Very clear

:yourock:

[kanrok]

11. "I'm stickin' with Dingleberry!"

"Dingleberry...catch it!"
"Vote for Dingleberry, soon we'll be circling Uranus!"
"Dingleberry...I could hang with that guy!"
"Dingleberry...smell the victory"

[Generator]

17. I think Dingleberry should watch the hair

but other than that, he's a hunk.

Vote for the Hairy Berry!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. Different People Heal at Different Rates

I don't think berating them helps in this process. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I'm all in with anyone, regardless of their enthusiasm level, so long as they pull the lever for Kerry in November and do not engage in pointless, mean-spirited criticism (as opposed to legitimate, constructive criticism) of him here.

DTH

[cally]

27. I agree!

Let all come around to Kerry at their own pace. I think honest discussion of his faults and weaknesses (All candidates have faults and weaknesses)will help us all to understand how better to reach out to swing voters. I don't agree with berating others because they are still thinking about their role. It's way too early.

:hi: Dennis

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Hi Sue!

:loveya:

D

[SoDesuKa]

Kerry is Keeping Bush in the Race

Any other Democrat would have Bush blown out of the water by now.

[bigwillq]

7. Give us some reasoning as to why you say this

Thanks in advance.

[GoBucksBeatBush]

34. why Kerry hasn't taken off...

i didn't make the original post, but i'll try to tie two of these posts together...why kerrys doesn't have any mo', and yet why anyone to the left of ghengis khan should probably think really, REALLY hard before NOT voting for kerry...

kerry hasn't taken off and blown bush out of the water at this point because that's who kerry is. he's an intellectual, articulate, thoughtful individual; great for intricate policy debates, etc. but not the greatest in our 30-second sound bite world of 21st century politics. i've no doubt in my mind who would be a better man to sit and talk global issues with "other foreign leaders"...kerry would want to actually sit and talk and listen about the issues, while bush would be the type to tell fart jokes and slip a whoopee cushion under some foreign president's ass.

however, some of the failure for kerry's non-launch has been self-inflicted. he keeps thinking that he needs to respond to every damn accusation that the fuckers make about him, even on things where he so clearly and obviously has the moral and ethical high ground...for koresh's sake, we've spent how long now debating KERRY'S vietnam-era service, and whether his wound was sufficient enough for a medal, blah blah blah, when the conversation should have been I WENT, YOU DIDN'T, SHUT YOUR EFFING PIE HOLE UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE THAT BUSH WASN'T AWOL!!!!!

when i worked for the dean campaign, my last assignment before howie imploded was to do oppo research on kerry...at that point in time, i already saw the handwriting on the wall, but i did the research and concluded that the most likely label to stick was that of "flip-flopper." it's the nature of the beast as a senator...he's got thousands of votes to pick over, and any single one of them can probably be used against him in some way, when taken out of context. of course, the chimp doesn't "do nuance" but most intelligent life forms do, so instead of selling himself as a man of thoughtful intellect, kerry's been labeled unprincipled by someone who's made a virtue out of being incurious and mentally rigid.

kerry's a strong closer, however, and as soon as he puts edwards on the ticket (that's "no vp" thing is another boo boo that needs to be rectified - soon), the two of them should start going to town.

remember...for better or worse, kerry and edwards are both legally trained minds...they used intellect for a living. cheney admittedly made a bundle in the business world, but when you're skirting u.s. rules to sell oil-field service shit to saddam during the mid-90's, that's not so much intellegent as it is illegal. and the bush boy? well, the moment he runs a successful company will be a first for him. the track record proves it. the country was all enamored that we had the first "m.b.a. president" but they forgot to double-check to see if the mba prez actually succeeded in business before scalia and the gang handed him the keys to the country.

as for why you should vote for kerry...consider the alternative. i voted for nader in 2000. granted i was in texas at the time, so i could afford to do so safely, but still, i didn't really see that much of a difference between gore and bush. 3.5 years later, even if kerry's not edwards (who IMHO would be just whooping bush's ass right now) or dean or any of the others, he's still NOT bush. desparate times call for strange bedfellows, if i may mangle my cliches. ponder the news of the world, and then ask if you and future generations can afford to have four more years of bushit.

just my $.02 worth

[SoDesuKa]

68. Contemplative Kerry

All right, I'll buy your argument that Kerry is contemplative. But the product of his thinking is fairly low quality. It's well and good if you say he's not a rah-rah guy, but he also does some boneheaded things. What was he doing in Kentucky instead of voting to extend unemployment insurance?

I don't care about his ability to discourse on the nuances of policy. His votes are wrong. And he's politically tin-eared. Kerry is keeping Bush in the race.

[Generator]

12. Bullshit

You have no idea what the Rove killing machine would have done to "any other Democrat" or what his response would have been.

And hello? Bush is in the race because he thinks he is on a mision from the almighty to free the world. And apparently a good 40% of those that vote in this country agree with him, and you?

[Nlighten1]

59. 95 to 3 says you are wrong.

Not that I am disagreeing with you totally. Kerry has been handed a Royal Flush and he looks like he is about to fold.

[sundancekid]

4. a very big AMEN to that!

NO MORE WHINING. Period.
We play the hand we have dealt, and work hard to make it a WINNER!
I'm the sundancekid, and I approved this message.:think:

[Robbien]

5. Do not tell me what to do!

I have a very shaky vote here for Kerry.

Threads such as these make me feel I should just leave the presidential vote blank.

I am serious and very angry. Stop this bullying!

[bigwillq]

9. Here's the deciding factor

Do you really want 4 more years of Shrub and Co.

If no, then get out there and pull the lever for Kerry.


If yes, then I would kindly suggest you no longer post on DU.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. I Would Kindly Suggest That Your Suggestion Blows

Let the admins and mods decide who is welcome here, and who is not.

DTH

[bigwillq]

19. Sorry, I know what I said is kind of harsh and your right

the admins, mods, et. al should be the only one's to decide that. I got a little ahead of myself. But I mean it, Kerry hasn't always been my fave candidate but he's the only man we got now. Let's support him and let's knock this 'Kerry is shaky and this and that.' We all had a choice in the primaries and Kerry would by a big margain. Obviously, he appealed to some people.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Kerry Won Because He Bet the Farm on Iowa and the Bet Paid in Spades

I respect Kerry, he was my #2 behind Clark, and I think Kerry won fair and square. But lots of people really wanted someone other than Kerry, too. We're still six months away from the election, give 'em time to figure out how they feel.

BTW, it takes a big person to admit s/he was wrong, so I commend you, and thanks for keeping an open mind.

DTH

[bigwillq]

47. It took me a while to keep an open mind about Kerry but

he's grown on me. I think in the end, Kerry has the best interest of this nation in his plans and I think he will do a good job.

This thread is making me a bit upset and I'm sorry if some of my words sound harsh. That is not my intent nor is it my intent to criticize other posters.

[mike1963]

23. Gosh, how I love this circular firing squad.

Mark Twain sure had it right...
:-(

[DoveTurnedHawk]

28. Maybe People Should Try to Refrain From Firing the First Shot, Then

That's how wars tend to start, after all.

DTH

[JVS]

62. Well said

:thumbsup:

[Robbien]

15. There is no difference

Bush supporters are bullies

Kerry supporters are bullies

[bigwillq]

22. Why are you shaky for Kerry

and sorry, I am not trying to be a bully. I am just pissed. We need to get the shrub out of office and I think it's time we all unite for better or for worse.

[Robbien]

38. The best way to keep the shaky votes

is to stop pushing us.

I was a very strong ABB, but Kerry lost me on so many issues and turned that into a shaky ABB. Then a month ago when he supported Bush's Sharon policy, he lost my vote.

But the Women's Right Rally got my head straight and got my vote back. But it is still very shaky.

[bigwillq]

54. Props to Robbien

It's a personal reply.

[hippiegranny]

74. wait a minute...

a shaky voter if pushed will vote to keep bush in office? well, that'll sure show us, won't it?

[Generator]

26. Well as a Kerry supporter

I resent the hell out of that.

Vote Bush, that will really show us!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Hey you know I like you and respect your posts

No matter who won there would be some segment of the party unhappy with it...but what unites the segments is a bit greater than what divides them in spite of the fact that we have a boatload of work to do to return the Democratic party to it's core values..

at least we can all be thankful Lieberman didn't win as he was favored to

(just trying to offer you a bright side :D )

[NoPasaran]

25. If threads like this make you angry don't read them

I was and still am as strong a Dean man as you will find but Bush has got to go. All the Dean folks I know in real life feel the same way and all the real Kerry people I have met welcome us.

[Robbien]

41. You are right. Normally I hit the hide button on them

But I am trying to get across the fact that threads such as these lose votes for Kerry. They really do.

The exact opposite effect intended.

[NoPasaran]

55. I sometimes wonder

if that's not their intent.

[boxster]

43. You should really make your decision on who to vote for

based on the candidates, not what others say on a web forum.

It's hard not to take what people here say seriously or personally, but it's best to just judge the candidates on their merits or lack thereof, not what a few of their supporters recommend.

Just a little friendly advice.

That being said, no one is forcing you to read these "bullying" threads, as you called them. If you don't want to be pressured, ignore the thread.

[AgentLadyBug]

44. go right ahead.....

screw this blackmail "don't be mean to me or i won't vote" crap.....

every american has the right to be part of the solution or part of the problem. if a lil ribbing on DU is sooooooooo bad for your tender sensibilities that it'll make you be part of the problem - fine - i believe the rest of the dems - the real dems - are coming around (getting off their wussy somolent asses), and we simply don't need you. we'll fix america without you.

part of the problem or part of the solution - you decide which you'll be in november - cya

christ - dam demo-wusses

[Cleita]

8. Well, I did favor the Dean, even if you more affluent types didn't.

However, I am behind Kerry. If Bush is reinstalled in the WH, I just say REVOLUTION. I am half South American. We are used to REVOLUTION.

[Bombtrack]

31. "More affluent?" Please. Dean's appeal was to social/single issue

type democrats who were well documented to be not as low on the economic rung as people who supported Edwards and Gephardt and I believe Kerry.

He got success because of the anti-war movement and gay people and that's RELATIVELY it. Everything stemmed off of that. His campaign was driven by emotion over logic.

[Cleita]

46. I found him to be reasonable and logical especially when he

spoke about health issues. So that is not 'relatively' it. I hope Kerry finds a place for him in his administration. Emotion is fine as long as it is about campaigning. Gee, I hope Bush, who only appeals to emotion, "freedoms", "evil dictators", "terra, terra, terra", is crapping in his pants right now.

[ibegurpard]

51. Crap

sorry, but that's just a load of crap.

[Voltaire]

70. Emotion over logic eh. . .?

Sounds like something out of the mouth of Rush. I will never understand the demands of Kerry supporters that everyone gets in line. If the man is all that and a bag of chips then his greatness would be clear to all, would it not?

[mot78]

13. Dear God, I thought the primaries were over!

I agree with you sandandsea, but this post is inflammatory and doesn't do shit for Kerry.

[bigwillq]

14. This is very well put

And I hope it persuades those on the fence to stop complaining that their candidate lost and get out there and do something to help Kerry. Got a letter from the Kerry camp asking for a donation. Gonna give $25. The most I can give right now.


The least we can do is to pull the lever in Nov. for Kerry and get that lying sack of shit, coke head, frat boy, hypocritical, ignornant, homo-phobic, racist, bastard out of the WH.

[dsc]

16. My problems with Kerry have nothing at all to do with Dean

they have to do with Kerry. Kerry has done some things very well. Fundraising has been great, no doubt about that. But he has also done badly in some areas. I can tell you here and now, that if Dean were making the same mistakes Kerry is I would be saying exactly the same thing. You can believe that or not I honestly don't give a damn. If I have learned one thing in sobriety it is this. When it is important you tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. We need to know what Kerry isn't doing well at least as much as when he is. Otherwise he will lose and we can't have that.

[dsc]

52. and for the record

with the singular exception of Gore in 2000, I have never as in not even once had my candidate win in the primaries. I supported Glenn in 84, Simon in 88, Tsongas in 92, Gore in 00, and Dean in 04. I voted and worked for every nominee in those years.

[sangh0]

73. Keep repeating that, and maybe someday it'll be true

but while contemplating your own fantasies, Kerry's numbers are rising steadily.

Kerry is now ahead of Bush* in Fla.

[dsc]

77. I am still waiting for those posts on the days you dishonestly said

I posted or an admittence you lied.

[drdigi420]

18. I'd like to list just some of the people i would vote for against Bush

Daffy Duck
Donald Duck
Howard the Duck
Duck Dogers
Steve Walsh
Steve Perry
Steve Stephens
Johnny Rocket
Jimmy Pocket
Jerry Socket
Jean Hock-it
Mr Fix-it
Mr Lube
Mr Clean
Mr Mister
Mrs Paul
Mrs Winners
Uncle Ben
Aunt Jamimah
Cousin Vinny
A Tic-Tac
A Piece of Belly Button Lint
A Head of Lettuce
A Rusty flywheel from a '74 Pinto

anyone care to add to the list?

[Trajan]

32. I gotta fuckin laugh at this post .....

Yee haa ....

I agree with EVERYTHING except this: Your belly button lint ...

I would instead vote for MY OWN belly button lint ...

I would vote for underwear ....

Oh ... and my toilet ....

[drdigi420]

35. but YOUR belly button lint wont discuss the ISSUES!

which are of course: the removal of belly button lint

and the storage of said belly button lint!

[GoBucksBeatBush]

45. Di-ka

how can you leave out Ditka? Ditka vs. Bush? DITKA!

also...William Perry. the Refrigerator. Bush wouldn't know how to debate him, b/c bush would keep looking for the keg spout. "you mean, you gotta FRIDGE in there? how? i dont' see it..."

[lastknowngood]

20. look these threads make no sense. I'll vote for Kerry but don't

expect me to work for him or support him when he is doing nothing to promote himself or to distance himself from the shrub's policies. You can't intimidate people of free will to get enthusiastic about a candidate to whom they have no affection or loyalty especially if he shows no enthusiasm. Look I always talk down the shrub and his insane policies but I can't promote Kerry's policy about the damn war when it's the same policy as the shrub's. How am I supposed to convince someone to change horses if there going to the same place at the same pace? Sorry but I'm pretty down now, with my country turning into the fourth Reich and most of the morans here to stupid to add one and one and get anything close to two, it's hard to keep hope alive.

[Robbien]

60. Very good post.

It almost mirrors my feelings.

[Deja Q]

24. So you have no malice toward the Naderites then?

:shrug:

Just curious...

[sandnsea]

63. Nader won't be President

The President will be elected by a majority of the people and we all have to live with the consequences. Whatever you do between now and November will decide who the President is going to be and what the consequences will be. That's the fact of it.

[IronLionZion]

30. John Kerry is a douche bag

but I'm voting for him anyway. He's a liberal and way better than W. If Kerry wasn't the nominee I wouldn't give him a second look. I think he's an old boring establishment twit, but he's better than what we have now.

If he picks Dean, Clark, or Edwards as Veep then he would be less of a douche, but even if he doesn't I'm still voting for him.

If FAUX NEWS says he had an affair with an Iraqi camel while eating kitten fetuses, I'd still vote for him over W.

Some freeper told me if I was ABB I should write in somebody instead of Kerry. But that poor bastard was a stupid freeper. I'm voting to get Bush the hell out!

And that means voting for Kerry.

[soup]

33. Shouldn't this be in the Campaign 2004 forum?

:eyeroll:

[Kahuna]

36. Tell Joe-mental Lieberman. He seems really pissed that he lost...

every primary. :P

[DU GrovelBot]

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[onehandle]

39. I still think Pat Paulsen will take the nomination...

This will be his year!

[Andromeda]

66. Pat Paulsen died a couple of years ago...

but good luck in recruiting him.

[ibegurpard]

40. Here's your mistaken premise:

That people are pissed off solely because some "personality" they were attached to did not make it. I'd be wildly ecstatic to pull the lever for Kerry if he could show me that he is as concerned about this administration as I am.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

49. That too.

eom

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. I Agree (eom)

DTH

[dpt223]

56. damn straight

nt

[chaska]

50. Here Here, SnS.

[Justice]

57. Not Winning Hearts and Minds

Your post is off-putting. I agree with your conclusion Bush or Kerry, work butt off for Kerry - but you are not winning over anyone. I was not a Dean supporter, but am offended by your comment about Dean.

[salin]

58. I support Kerry - and am glad to do so...

but this message is a tad bit... well... hard to take. Back when I was concerned about how toxic the "candidate wars" had become... in part due to my concerns that the hostility between supporters was becoming so high that it would be hard to coalese behind the front runner... I remember challenging a particularly hostile towards Dean person on the anti-Dean language... which was clarified by that poster as being... in essence... "yes I think he is a piece of shit..." Hard to imagine that with such calcified dislike (er... hatred) that the same poster would... had that candidate won... "be doing whatever I could to help.

I am behind you, and Kerry. However I warned many many months ago that the rhetoric used by ... some... would make it hard to come back together in the end. Would love to see some folks take responsibility for that - rather than just claim that they would be suddenly all out supportive of the candidate were it not theres after being so very, very hostile (not ambivalent... but hostile). Why do I state this? Because the lack of sincerity in the message makes it ineffective - and leaves us divided rather than in concert and ready to take Bushco on.

Second, I just finally had the chance to vote in our primary a week ago (and took the day off to work the precinct as a clerk.. just my part to make sure that things were working well...) Funny thing, in this very democratic area, in a republican state.... very low turnout. And no vote on the dem side counted towards choosing the party candidate. Claiming that of all candidates... there was only one at the end... is rather false. Many, many democrats had not had a chance to vote before that was decided. Let's call it what it is - good for momentum for the front runner - but complete disenfranchisement for many party voters. As a former civics teacher, who spoke often about the importance of the primary system... in terms of those who bitch at the end about the "two candidates" but don't participate in making their voice heard in the selection of those candidates... is suddenly the silliest discussion in town. The primaries, for the presidential candidates, has become irrelevant for all but the early state voters. The rest of us no longer count.

All that said, if you want to get folks on board... first I would take responsibility for one's own role in the toxic tone of the canditate wars and how there is lack of credibility that the person making the argument, if they were one who was exceptionally hostile, would really be "doing all they could" on behalf of the same candidate they called "a piece of shit" .... Second - to claim that this decision was made because all selected this candidate out of the original candidates - when some primaries have yet to happen and many primaries have happened when it is moot - simply reminds those of us in late primary states that our votes do not count and we no longer are any part of the process.

If you want folks to come together - do it around the importance of deeating bush. There is tons of material there around which to make the call. Tons. The bush whitehouse is an outrage. But, please, when one fed into the hostility against a single candidate... don't claim a high road as if one would have taken it had results been different - as it doesn't wash, nor does it take any responsibility for the aftermath of the ugly dynamic which one chose to feed into.

We CAn (and I hope will) come together in the end. But not by claiming a rather hollow sounding self-righteousness and using that faux righteousness to browbeat others.

[sandnsea]

64. Yep, I think Dean is a piece of shit

Still do, but if he were the nominee, tough for me. I'd be working my ass off for him, which I almost always said at the time too. The Supreme Court is too big a deal and that alone has always been enough for me. Which is the point of the whole post. Most people who are complaining about Kerry are still stuck on their own candidates and their own selfish political agendas. Bush or Kerry will be the President and it's time for people to decide what they're going to do about it.

[ibegurpard]

65. Whoosh!

The sound of the post above going right over your head.

[LizW]

61. I have a suggestion

could you guys just title ALL these threads, "Nyah, nyah, nyah, Kerry won, Deal lost, so GET OVER IT!"

That way I'll know not to waste my time looking for substantive content, 'kay?

I'm voting for Kerry. Get it? I'M VOTING FOR KERRY. I'm not excited about his candidacy, but who cares? He gets my vote.

Do you understand that shots like this at supporters of other candidates makes it harder to support Kerry? It makes it harder to be enthusiastic. It makes it harder to enjoy his victories. I don't like that, it pisses me off.

I want to enjoy this election. I want to be jumping up and down with glee the night of November 2 when Bush is crushed.

Cut out this vindictive killjoy shit. It does not serve your candidate, or the Democratic Party in general.

[Lorien]

67. Amen, LizW

"Some people just need to grow up and accept that the world doesn't revolve around them and their views. That IS, in fact, what a democracy is."

And "some people" ought to take their own advice!

[HFishbine]

69. Look

We haven't reached a finish line, only a mile marker. There are plenty of events yet to come. There is, of course, the nomination of a VP, for one. I'm also waiting for Kerry to develop a concrete strategy for Iraq. Like it or not, Kerry could still make some decisions that inspire some voters to leave the presidential ballot blank. If you don't want to hear it, fine. But if the reality is the situation is still fluid and while Kerry may have your unequivicable support, you are still in the minority. Some of us are interested in discussing ways for Kerry to win that go beyond threats.

[rbnyc]

71. I agree with the overall sentiment, but have to say...

...that our front-loaded primary process is not good democracy, and that it doesn't truly represent the will of the majority, as so many candidates are pressured to drop out so early, AND so many voters are swayed by earlier primary results and "get on board" a bit too early. I think our primaries are dysfunctional and the selection of Kerry is not the optimum result.

Still, you're right. Not everyone's candidate can win. We're all going to be able to find fault with whomever gets the nomination. We do need to grow up and unite against Bush. And after Kerry wins, we need to stay involved and express our concerns to his administration.

[BiggJawn]

72. Thanks for this post!

After reading the replies to this thread, I just got off my ass and gave Kerry a DONATION.

Bush gotta GO!

[Killarney]

75. Anyone that does NOT vote for Kerry will have on their hands

the blood of everyone killed in Bush's neocon agenda in his second term.

Just as in 2000, many assholes said Bush and Gore were the same and refused to vote for Gore. Now look... would President Gore have gone to war with Iraq? NO! Would President Gore have instituted $3 trillion work of tax cuts for the rich, destroying our economy and slashing funding to everything that's important to us? NO!

I'm willing to give the naive idealogues a pass for their vote in 2000 because maybe they didn't know any better, but not this year. We've seen what Bush can do. We've been warned. So if you don't vote for Kerry because you think he's the same as Bush... good luck sleeping at night. If Bush goes to war with Iran and Syria and fucks up our country even more... the blood is on the hands of those who helped him get into office.

I know that might sound harsh, but it's reality.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

76. Easy to say.

Hard to prove.

[hughee99]

78. Now don't get me wrong

I'm going to vote for Kerry (though he wasn't my first choice), and it shouldn't matter anyway since I'm from MA, and if my vote makes the difference here, then he's doomed nationally, but I have some concerns about him. Many have been outlined already in this thread, but here is basically my biggest one... We're hoping that Kerry will be able to bring us back into the international community to help us accomplish common goals. If Kerry's people aren't politically savvy enough to handle Rove (and I would argue that Rove has bested Kerry's people several times, and that Kerry's people have flat out screwed up several times) how the hell is he going to be able to get people from dozens of countries together to accomplish anything?

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

79. Can't wait

Don't know about you all, but I can't wait to see Kerry wipe the floor with GW in a debate. With all of Gw's "ummm.." ::squint, squint:: "ah..." ::quint:: "um..."'s , he'll look like the moron he is next to just about anyone.