Friend in Kerry Camp wants suggestions for JFK response to Torturegate!

[ElementaryPenguin]

Friend of a friend working in the John Kerry camp has asked me to solicit advice from DUers on just exactly how Kerry ought to respond to BushCo's Torturegate.

It's not surprising that the insiders should turn to the infinite wisdom of the DU - so let's not let them down - let's really put our heads together and come up with some suggested responses that will be appropriate and effective. This is actually a rather tricky issue to deal with politically. I assure you I will see to it that these are passed on. Please help now. Bring it on, DU!

:think:

[Sterling]

1. Tell your friend that they and JFK need to come here themselves

Seriously if they really want to get their shit together they need to come here and be DUers. I can't begin to count the times we DUers had it right and they blew it big time. Asking us for advice from time to time is nice but they need to become as informed and on message as we are here.

[ElementaryPenguin]

4. I certainly agree with that, Sterling!

We've all learned a helluva lot from each other, that's for sure!

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. you got mail

[killbotfactory]

2. Demand that everyone responsible, and everyone who knew and did nothing

be held responsible for war crimes.

[ElementaryPenguin]

5. Excellent start.

that should get some attention.

[Eye and Monkey]

3. Identify this incident as part of "George Bush's America"

"George Bush's Policy"

"George Bush's Responsibility"

"George Bush's Choice"

"George Bush's ______"

Note: I'm no word-smith here, please work it.

[ElementaryPenguin]

7. I'll work with it in a moment. I think that theme approach is strong.

thanks

[chaska]

6. Hammer away at the misadministration's incompetence and...

Incompetence is extrememely evident regardless of whether it's individual soldiers or higher ups who are at fault. But more importantly, the point needs to be made and heavily sold that Bush is only creating more terrorists. And the new guys are REALLY pissed. You simply cannot fight terrorism this way. Armies fight armies. Armies can't fight shadows and devious thoughts in men's heads. This is truly a stupid approach to the problem.

[ElementaryPenguin]

8. True enough. Even if public at large can't buy into BFEE or LIHOP

The sheer incredible INCOMPETENCE of BushCo is rather hard to miss - or ignore!

[ijk]

32. Incompetence is a good word

In general - at least right now - I don't think Kerry wants to dive headlong into the torture scandal; the "anti-torture" position, so to speak, should continue to be seen as the public's position, not the candidate's. It has more sticking power that way. It's not a partisan issue; it's an all-goodthinking-people versus Bush issue.

So Kerry's main goal should be to keep attention on it. Words like "incompetence" and "recklessness" that can subtly tie the torture into the larger failings in Iraq, calling for a full investigation, vague phrases like "at the highest levels", pointing towards what a professional rather than a neocon military would really look like - terrific move there with mentioning McCain for sec'y of defense - regret at how disasterously events in Iraq have angered the Arab world and encouraged terrorism... All the relatively subtle things that will keep emphasizing how bad this was.

Use some moral terminology. We let the high ground be stolen from us there too often. 'As we continue to fight the war on terrorism, we can win only if we preserve the things that make us better than terrorists - honesty, justice, the rule of law, apple pie.'

The counterpoint to all of that, of course, is that Kerry should do all he can to get his surrogates in the House and Senate to be jumping up and down and screaming about this. Let them be the ones to demand the release of pictures and video, form committees to investigate, go ballistic on the sunday talk shows. The candidate can maybe indicate his support for some of that in nonpartisan terms - 'I think all Americans are outraged and shocked and want to see this thoroughly investigated' - but it should be others who really kick up the anger level.

Or such is my opinion.

[AgadorSparticus]

93. for all the dumb bubbas out there, maybe we should use "screwed up"

instead of incompetence. i think it would hit home more.

[ElementaryPenguin]

104. Good point. Perhaps they should use both.

:shrug:

[AgadorSparticus]

145. actually, i think they try to use simpler words altogether. i've noticed

that * never uses a vocabulary above jr. high level. maybe someone can correct me? but i think this is his "appeal" to the masses. well, that and that he is such a damn fine "christian".

kerry often goes on and on and on. i appreciate his message and content but i don't think i am the average jane doe (i don't think anyone here on DU is either). the average jane/john doe cannot get past the wrapping.

but brevity is not kerry's strong suit. couple that with lack of charisma and public speaking monotony, i think it is a prescription for a snoozer.

[Tellurian]

95. yes, words carefully chosen should suffice for now.

Democrats should take this opportunity to label and define the VRW.

It would be refreshing for writers and readers alike to discover new words as adjectives beyond the usual assortment of peanut butter and jelly phrases we've grown accustomed to hearing, describing the destroyer of everyone's happiness.

[snippy]

34. "Bush is only creating more terrorists." Rummy's memo might help here.

. . .

Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

. . .

Is our current situation such that "the harder we work, the behinder we get"?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/rumsfeld-memo.htm

The entire memo presents a good argument that it is time for a change.

[Tellurian]

97. A Republican Sen..should order a psych profile on Rumsfeld...

Rumsfeld is living in a delusional world. It still hasn't occurred to him, how many people have died since they played their little prank on the world and screamed...Saddam has WMD..But what did Saddam ever do to US? My impression is: whatever Saddam did, he did it with Bush, not us. I thought Bush said, Osama is responsible for 911! Then it turned out most of the terrorists were Arabs..

Why all the Lies?

[bearfartinthewoods]

9. stop using it as a fund raiser

that just plain reeks

[ElementaryPenguin]

11. I'm not. I swear it, Bear!

Just looking for suggestions!

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. no, i meant the letter Kerry is sending out

they were talking about it on a local call in and people were furious.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

116. fundraising = trivia

let's stay focused on issues, like taxpayer-funded torture, rape, and murder.

:eyes:

[DoBotherMe]

10. Unless there is

some sort of contrition on the part of the U.S. government and a guarantee to end the abuse, there will continue to be retaliation on civilians or service personnel captured by members of the many radical groups in any theatre where the u.s. has a military presence, and a possible reactivition of terrorist actions against Americans throughout the world.

However, to speak of the possibility of retaliation, may be a cause of retaliation. It just shouldn't have happened in the first place.

[ElementaryPenguin]

13. Good point. Thanks.

:dem:

[Spinzonner]

12. Treaties, including the Geneva ones governing

the rules of war and treatment of both combatants and non-combatants are the law of the land. It says so in the Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding"

It is not within the authority or discretion of the Executive - including the President - to ignore or abrogate them. They are legally bound to follow them and to ignore them is surely a violation of the law and a cause for impeachment.

There's no point in stirring the pot by calling for Bush's impeachment - especially in absence of any evidence that he was paying any attention. But it surely applies to Rumsfeld and others in the chain of command.

Its time to turn the 'nation of laws' argument against the usurpers.

[ElementaryPenguin]

16. That is SO true, Spinz - and so friggin' overlooked these day!

It isn't OPTIONAL for ChimpCo to follow International Law and treaties - it's a CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENT!!

:argh:

[Spinzonner]

20. Seems to me that

he said he would when he took the oath of office. (Or Oaf of Office in his case, perhaps)

Might be a case for impeachment there.

[Imperialism Inc.]

14. Probably the safest angle is to keep pointing out that it is the lack

of a post-war strategy and lack of planning that has caused all the chaos we have now.

[ElementaryPenguin]

19. That is safe, but true - and undoubtedly effective.

thanks

[Imperialism Inc.]

28. No Prob. Example.

The orders to make sure that any MPs or prison guards were well trained should come from the top. It should be in the President's mind as he is planning, that it will be important to make sure the Arab world sees us treating them fairly. It never even occurred to these guys and thus we get the mess we got.

[redqueen]

118. Has it even been determined who was in charge?

MP's? MI?

[StPatrick]

53. Totally right on!

Just finished Woodward' book. Though the planning for Iraq started long before 911, all of assumptions for going to war were proven wrong. Thank Tommy Franks, Rummy, and especially Bush for not asking any probing questions of his staff. They got us into this mess. The torture acts were all a direct outcome of this lack of planning, especially in the aftermath with our occupation of the country. I wonder if anyone in the administration ever read a book on the history/culture of the people of Iraq. The hubris of this administration makes me nauseous.

[Career Prole]

15. Just compare the treatment they've recieved to what our troops

recieved.
He should use their own quotes from March of 2003 when five of our guys were captured. The Iraqis put 'em on TV (fully clothed, mind you) and grilled them with tough questions like "What is your name?" and "Where are you from?"
The administration went ballistic at how cruel that was, and what a breach of the Geneva Conventions.

Then the Iraqis capture Jessica Lynch. The administration goes nuts again and busts in and rescues her from *gasp* hospital treatment.

Then they sat on their asses and did nothing for months while Iraqis were being tortured. Rumsfeld said he didn't realize how bad it was until he saw the pictures.
Hmmm...broomstick up the butt? That might be bad, but maybe it's an itty-bitty broomstick and a great big ass. I just won't know if that's torture until the film's developed. Don't want to make any snap decisions.

[MAlibdem]

17. Do nothing...

don't make it political. It shouldn't be. Call for an independent commission until there is one to investigate the incident. DO NOT overplay your hand...there is no need, we are far away to the election, let Bush lose it, he's doing a great job already. Apply pressure, but not enough to kill yourself. Give him enough rope to hang himself with, then pounce.

[ElementaryPenguin]

24. You make a great point. That's probably what they're wrestling with now.

Thanks.

[Old and In the Way]

71. I agree....whatever Kerry says now is a reaction to what is happening

under George's command now. Who knows what the situation will be in a month, let alone 8 months from now? It is Congress that needs to get involved now and start investigating and developing a viable post-Iraq exit strategy...while there is still an Iraq to have a strategy with.

Kerry should adopt the principles outlined by The Center for American Progress. And corporate influence in Iraqi contract awards should be a big issue that he campaigns on. Way too much corporate influence in our foreign, domestic, and energy policies.

[In Truth We Trust]

21. Simple.... Just recite the facts in the form of a....

timeline.

"Bush claim for war in Iraq" 9/11 Lie

"Bush claim for war in Iraq" WMD Lie

"Bush claim for war in Iraq" Democracy Lie

"Bush claim for war in Iraq" Saddam Torture lie

etc.

Steady Leadership???? who REALLY flip flops.

Just show evocative images with a strong voice over reciting historical truth re constant shifting timeline of purported justifications. Leave the viewer with the all too real reality of being deceived. perhaps the second to last image would be Cheney and * Enron/Halliburton connection. Last image "Everyman" pumping gas at $2.30 a gallon or American serviceman flag draped coffin.

[west michigan]

79. not sure if

the gasoloine thing would be a good parlay. I was floored at paying $3.79 for a gallon of milk. The working man is being nickel and dimed or is it quartered and halved?

[BeFree]

22. ....

The sad thing is that this situation has been going on as long as it has. The first information of the abuse first came out, and was known by senior officials, almost a year ago. Yet, the abuse continued until at least January, and for all we know continues today.

Senior officials knew of the abuse and allowed it to continue. Some officials must have even condoned the abuse otherise it surely should have been stopped as soon as it began.

Then we have some evidence of a four month cover up of the investigation by the army general, once again, by senior officials. Let me tell you, had I been President, at the first sign of abuse to the people we are there to liberate and democratize, the abuse would have quickly ended. Heck, it may have never even started if I was the President, but if it did, as soon as it was discovered, senior heads would have rolled.

This is a prime example the difference between me and ****, this failing to serve the American people will not be allowed to occur under my watch.

[Star]

23. Tell him to talk to Dr. Dean

Dr. Dean always knew exactly the right thing to say and the right way to say it. Talk to him. ask him how he would handle it.

Remember, NONE of this would have happened if Bush* had trusted the inspectors to do their job. NONE of this would have happened if we had not invaded Iraq. NONE of this would have happened if we were not occupiers.

[ibegurpard]

25. How about Mr. Kerry just says what he actually thinks about it?

eom

[FlemingsGhost]

48. Yup... Kerry doesn't need anyone to tell him how he feels.

His response should be genuine.

[hedda_foil]

80. And if he can't figure out how he actually feels about it ...

See previous post: Ask Governor Dean what to say because he has consistently been exactly on point.

[Plaid Adder]

26. If you don't want people to act like demons,

then you shouldn't make the world a living hell.

Sorry. That's not gonna be terribly useful. BUt that's how I feel about it. Bush went to Iraq, set it on fire, and is now professing himself shocked, shocked I tell you, at the smell of burning flesh.

@#$!,

The Plaid Adder

[ElementaryPenguin]

126. Great little post anyway, PA!

Right on!

[katusha]

27. the buck stops here

It is simple, already in peoples minds as a common colloquialism, and is in keeping with what has been said in the past. repetition will drive the message home that bush does not accept responsibility for his actions or those of his charges.
It does not matter if he is responsible for this or not, what matters is that a good leader would take responsibility and fix it. bush will not. so we need to drive the point home that, like his reasoning for going to war with Iraq, bush's main campaign theme of strong leadership is just another sham. real leaders take responsibility for the bad as well as credit for the good.
How many times, when something has gone wrong, have we seen bush duck the responsibility with lame excuses like i didn't know, or that intelligence was given to me by the CIA, or it was the sailors who put up that "mission accomplished" banner, etc. etc. etc.
This is the best opportunity that Kerry will have to simply shred bush's whole campaign strategy and send rove back to square one. go for the jugular!

REAL LEADERS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY

[0rganism]

43. Yes! Kerry could be asking "Where the heck does the buck stop these days?"

"Does it stop in Cheney's office? Condi's office? Rummy's office? Wolfy's office? Where can we find the BUCK!?!?"

[klook]

133. I like "The Buck" stuff too n/t

[RC]

29. When I google JFK all I get is stuff about John F. Kennedy

On November 22, 1963, when he was hardly past his first thousand days in office, John Fitzgerald Kennedy was killed by an assassin's bullets as his motorcade wound through Dallas,

So how can JFK respond to Torturegate?

Would you mean JK or John Kerry, maybe?

[0rganism]

33. He means John Forbes Kerry, the other JFK

You know, the living one, currently engaged in a presidential campaign.

[ibegurpard]

36. While we're at it,

tell them to discourage the use of "JFK." Yes, we all know that those are his real initials but come on...

[Desperadoe]

52. There is only one JFK

And the people that run Kerry's campaign better soon realize this. JFK is dead! He was murdered in 1963. There will never be another JFK. Period!!

[0rganism]

54. Quick! Call the Kennedys and have them copyright the acronym!

Can't have other people running with those initials, no way.

[ibegurpard]

61. Hello?

That's the reaction that many people will have when they see him use his initials. He should discourage it.

[RC]

55. There is only one JKF - John Fitzgerald Kennedy

You confuse the issues for those of us old enough to have lived history.
That is what bu$h&co do as a matter of course.
Why aid them?

JFK - John Fitzgerald Kennedy

JK - John Kerry

[redqueen]

119. This kind of trivial crap is the kind of mindless wasting of energy

that rove&co LOVE people to waste time on.

Please.

[Pobeka]

31. With George Bush, everyone suffers, including our own.

We need a leader who lets us all win, and that will steal the ammunition of fear from the terrorists.

Or something like that...

[ElementaryPenguin]

39. I like that one, P!

:toast:

[goddess40]

35. Call for UN inspection

If we ever want to use the UN to safe guard our POW's we need them to check these POW's.

[ElementaryPenguin]

37. Keep 'em coming, folks. Lot of good stuff here!

:yourock:

[ibegurpard]

41. An addendum to my post above

Why does Mr. Kerry need a focus group to formulate a response to this?

[redqueen]

120. Who said he *needs* it?

Is EP Kerry? I don't think so.

Why are you so determined to trash him?

:nuke:

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[0rganism]

40. Keep hammering on Rumsfeld

It's his responsibility to keep on top of this shit. Showing up to the Senate Armed Forces Committee hearing without knowing the contents of Gen. Taguba's Executive Summary -- the summary, not even the whole report -- is either gross negligence or stonewalling. One is unforgiveable, the other is downright dangerous.

Turn Rumsfeld into the albatross around bush's neck. bush just proclaimed Rumsfeld to be doing a "superb job", so make him pay for it.

[pacifictiger]

42. To appear not to be accused of using iraq

for 'political gain,' as they will no doubt do to drown out his message I suggest this.
He could focus instead on domestic abuse in america's prisons and tie it in to republican's march to privatize american prisons (I don't know if abuse has gotten better or worse but it might be interesting to find out) He should further tie that in to the war profiteering motive for privatization and how military spending seems to have increased proportional to that privatization motive, i.e war is profitable, to hell with the people whose lives are disrupted (PNAC vision architects)

[snippy]

44. Unrelated to the Bush rape rooms and torture chambers, but Kerry should

just say:

FIRE THE LIAR.

The entire world knows that Bush is the most compulsive and incessant liar in the history of American politics.

Bush claims that John McCain has an illegitimate Negro daughter and said he would veto McCain-Feingold and the yawning boy was not there and was not yawning and besides he was standing some place else and Richard Clarke had complete access to Bush and Rice which proves that Clarke was out of the loop which is Clinton's fault but Clarke briefed the press on background about Bush fighting terrorism which means that unnamed White House sources may not be identified even when Bush wants to and even though everyone except Bush himself knows where he was during his National Guard service which was after he volunteered to go to Viet Nam but before he was no longer required to take a flight physical and about the same time that God ordered Bush to smite Saddam it was Clinton's fault that Bush did not show up for duty because the 60 lines of embryonic stem cells and more arsenic in the water and more mercury in the air prove that republican science is better than sound science and the Bush administration did not illegally conspire to illegally reveal the identity of a covert CIA operative which resulted in 2 million new jobs being created because democrats support terrorism and are not good Americans just as the Jews were not good Germans which is why Bush said he would veto the creation of both the Department of Homeland Security and the 9/11 Commission but now claims credit for their creation and the White House is cooperating with the 9/11 Commission which is why the White House withheld documents and called the republicans on the Commission before Clarke testified and why the White House is not coordinating the attacks on the integrity and bipartisanship of the Commission since the dental xrays prove that Bush spoke with the CIA director everyday and did not ignore either the repeated warnings of the dangers of al Qaeda and Osama or the August 2001 intelligence briefing specifically warning of the upcoming 9/11 attacks because the United States is a nation with a mission and that mission is to bring freedom to every single person in the world which will cut the deficit in half if you do not count those parts of the deficit which will increase under Bush which is Clinton's fault but the boxes from China were labeled "Made in USA" which resulted in 2.6 million new jobs being created even though the $400 billion decorative Medicare turkey was not labeled $550 billion and was passed without bribery or criminal deception which proves that government spending under Bush has gone down if you do not count the increased government spending under Bush which is Clinton's fault and Bush's plane to Baghdad was spotted because before Saddam bought the uranium and became an urgent but not an imminent threat which is Clinton's fault Bush had no plans on his desk to invade Iraq since the invasion was not planned before Bush took office even though it was the subject of his first national security council meeting and in December 2001 when plans for the invasion were being finalized Bush said he was focused on the military operations in Afghanistan and then the aircraft carrier was too far offshore for the Navy to make a large enough "Mission Accomplished" banner to describe the WMD we have found in Iraq some of which Saddam was giving to Osama for following Saddam's plans and using Iraqi hijackers on 9/11 which is Clinton's fault but everyone who pays income taxes got a tax cut which created 3 million new jobs and allowed Iraqi oil revenue to pay for the cost of the reconstruction of Iraq after the invasion by a small number of troops who would be greeted with floral program related activities except for the dead and wounded troops who are being brought home secretly which is Clinton's fault since Bush is the one who hugs the mothers and the widows and the wives and the kids and since Bush does not watch television news he did not know about the republican torture pranks occurring in Iraq until he saw the pictures on the television news and that is why Bush who will use the jawbone of an ass to force OPEC to open the spigots and who is responsible for good economic numbers but not bad economic numbers which are Clinton's fault wrote the poem that he did not write blaming Laura for dropping the dog.

There is no subject so somber, serious, or shallow that Bush will not lie about it. The only other option is not to lie. And that apparently is something Bush can not do.

Ridiculing Bush for his compulsive and incessant lying needs to become common.

FIRE THE LIAR

[Larkspur]

45. Why doesn't the former Mass prosecutor bring war crimes charges

against Bush & Co. in Federal Court and pursue it relentlessly until Bush & Co. are locked up along with Saddam Hussein? Now that would impress this Kerry-hater.

There are international lawyers already working on bringing Blair to trial and possibly Bush & his minions, so why doesn't Kerry get things going here against Bush?

[Fleshdancer]

46. Put up summarized info concerning the Geneva Convention on his website

Americans need to have a more clear understanding of the law.

If I were Kerry, I would sit down with Red Cross and Amnesty and LISTEN to what they say needs to be done. And if asked about what I would do differently from Bush, I would make it very clear that the Secretary of Defense would be standing in the unemployement line ASAP.

[turiya]

47. OUT OF IRAQ NOW

Kerry says the war is lost, so the logical solution is to get out of there!

[seabeyond]

49. he needs to address how the country

the last three years have become a country of hate through this administration in the name of christianity. we have isolated ourselves from the world and a minority group has isolated themselves from the rest of the nation. we have to for our children come back to the loving and supporting and being kind to each other. to listen to each other. to be open to what each other says. to work together and resolve. not a land of hate, feeding that hate throughout the world.

this is what the people of the world are looking for from us as a nation now. we have lost our humanity as a person.

we have become a nation of the ennds justifying the means. yet reality, if the means are without integrity, there will not be a good end. it doesnt work.

bush ran on integrity and honor, and that is exactly what we have not gotten from the man. so to run on that again would be odd, but that is exactly what we need.

what happened in the prisons is exactly what bush ha created in not caring for fellow man, and throughout his years there is evidence how he created this world for those soldiers and prisoners conflicts

the simple crusade, christianlity vs muslim allowed all this to be

kerry needs to go to the churches and discuss the taking back of christianity, (as much as religion is seperation of church adn state) we need the leaders of church who told their people to hate, to take it back. that the hate isnt working

[thethinker]

50. I think the right way to play this issue is . . .

I think this is not a democrat or republican issue. AMERICA'S HONOR IS AT STAKE! The Republicans (from Rush to Congressmen) are trying to politicizes this issue.

The only way to save face with the rest of the world, and the American people, is to investigate this issue all the way to the top. It would help if Rumsfeld would resign or be replaced.

Our leaders need to come forward in no uncertain terms and tell the American people and the rest of the world that torture is NOT the policy of America. They also need to say public ally that we believe in the Geneva Convention and we plan to follow it to the letter. (the Bush gang will never do this, but Kerry could).

Nothing short of this will heal the problem.

Democrats, including Kerry, need to keep demanding transparency and full investigation of these war crimes. The role of the CIA and contractors need to be investigated. They need to follow this one to the top.

In the end, Kerry can come off as defending America's honor and good name. He could give Americans his word that there will not be torture of prisoners, violations of the Geneva convention, secret detention camps, and eternal wars under his watch! I think that might even appeal to some Republicans about now.

[klook]

135. Offer a positive alternative

...not just condemnation of the horrors. I like this:

"In the end, Kerry can come off as defending America's honor and good name. He could give Americans his word that there will not be torture of prisoners, violations of the Geneva convention, secret detention camps, and eternal wars under his watch!"

In general--despite the temptation to have Kerry pounce on this stuff--it's best to avoid the appearance of "politicizing" the scandal. Kerry should express disgust over the atrocities, and point out that Kerry believes in an America that fights only when necessary; when it does fight, fights clean; and an America that can win without sacrificing honor.

However, at this point I think he's also got to rethink his position on continuing the Iraq war. Send more troops into this mess? How's that going to help??

[alcuno]

51. I fully support the administration doing everything in its power to get to

the bottom of the allegations of abuse in Iraqi prisons. Americans are awfully sharp and capable of dealing with hard truths. These are troubling times and they need to understand what has happened because it is our citizens who ultimately hold the keys to good government in America.

It's important that the administration and the Congress fully investigate the roles of adequate troop strength, adequate leadership, adequate planning, and the charge that was given to young men and women when they left for Iraq. It's vital that our citizens learn if these were the rogue acts of a few or the rogue acts of a wrong policy.

Yes, I called last (January?) for the Secretary of Defense to resign and I continue to do so. Americans are tough. They understand that when a plan goes awry, it's not noble or helpful to refuse to change course. It adds nothing to the fabric of America to be firm in resolve when that simply means doing more of the same. There is a saying that goes "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." America deserves better than this. America IS better than this and we are a strong people. Our citizens prize truth above all else because it is only through open government that we can maintain the strength of our society, the strength our government, and the strength of our humanity.

[doni_georgia]

56. 1st advice - Don't call it "torture gate"

Only person before you I have heard call it that was Sean Hannity when he claimed yesterday that the left was calling it that. The right has routinely put "gate" at the end of every "scandal" tied to the a Democrat, let's please do not follow suit.

Heard a Senator today on NPR (don't know who, they said before I got in the car) talking about the picture of the prisoners in a pile in with all the soldiers including the obvious officer in jungle cammies. We noticed yesterday that these were not lowly privates in this picture. There is evidence in the pictures that there were others besides the "handful of bad apples." That needs to be the focus.

[vetwife]

59. Tell him the effect this non planning has had on veterans from other wars

I know this for a fact. Tell him to be the person he was in 71 or at least lean that way. Tell him the veterans I know are calling this torture and not abuse. They are seeing themselves in that situation at the hands of occupiers. Not to mention the Muslim culture. Play the populist card on either get new leadership or get out, otherwise it is a drip drip drip situation where only more americans will die. Tell him to quit listening to his handlers and listen to We the People who cannot aford any more death, destruction and he definately needs to stop the contracting because you cannot rebuild what keeps getting blown up. Money down the tube. There is no rebuilding Iraq as long as it is a War Zone ! Of course they are going to come back and ask We the Peole who are paying for this mess for more money because it is falling apart. No money for contracts until the region can stabalize and that won't happen under Rumsfield. It won't happen under Bush. Have him start saying
WHERE HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE !

Also tell him, that Bush as Commander in Chief..The Ultimate Buck stops with him..if he didn't know...WHY NOT ? IT is his job. AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF ! It is easy to dress up in play clothes but people wearing the uniform for real are making life or death decisions without leadership ! Tell him that ! Tell him to talk to the soldiers in Iraq..the ones who are fed up !

[dsc]

57. Responsibility

He needs to make this part of a continuing theme. This is the middle schooler administration. Like any middle schooler nothing is this man's fault. The bad economy is Clinton's fault. The prison torture scandal is underlings faults. The WMD fiasco is the CIA's fault. The outing of Wilson's wife is Novak's fault. 9/11 is Clinton's fault. And on and on it goes. Frankly I would run a comercial with every miscue of this administration with a middle schooler making some of the ridiculous excuses these people have given.

[Sparkly]

60. I agree -- make it part of a broader theme of Responsibility

along with the things that entails: competence, honesty, integrity, intelligence...

[dsc]

64. The tagline would be

We wouldn't accept this from him (the middle schooler), why do we accept it from him (Bush)?

[Sparkly]

69. Oooh, that is good!!

:)

[dsc]

73. Thanks

I think one of the most effective ads in 2002 was the one criticising Lautenburg and NJ Dems for Torricelli's quitting. It ended up not being enough due to Lautenburg being a very good candidate and a very good fit for NJ. But the ad waa still very good. It featured a kid talking about how quitting is bad. This ad would be modeled on that.

[myrna minx]

105. Bingo...

I was just thinking that. Condi "I forgot" Rice and Donald "I left my homework at home" Rumsfeld escape all responsibility, yet no pupil would be able to slide with excuses like that. A kid would get detention for those lame excuses.

Let's heal America along side John "no excuses" Kerry. :toast:

[ElementaryPenguin]

100. You and DSC are really rocking here!

thanks!

[Nashyra]

62. Outrage and disgust

prayers for Bergs family, We are supposed to be better, also it is an outrage to compare our behavior to the Iraqi's or the ones responsible for the Berg killing. The fallout from a pre emptive war, a war not backed by our allies, a war that was launched while we still needed to be in Afghanistan, a military stretched to thin and a military that has close ties to military contractors advising the WH.

[Sparkly]

63. Right, that goes to incompetence

especially regarding what the military is for, how and when to use it and how and when NOT to.

[Quahog]

75. This is the BEST thing Kerry's said so far in his campaign

My wife is not as into politics as I am, although she truly hates bush*. She told me the other day she didn't have a good feeling for what Kerry was about. I told her that he had recently said, "When I am president, I won't be the last one to know what's going on in my administration." She looked at me for a long minute and said, "Oh my God, that would be SO refreshing."

This personal responsibility theme is huge. bush* has expected Americans to take responsibility for paying for the Iraq invasion and the war on terror, and for fighting on the ground. But every time something goes wrong, he's out of the loop, he hasn't been informed, the intelligence is faulty, the report never reached his desk. People hate this, because they know in their own jobs and their own lives this shit never flies.

I think Kerry should say that if something like the torture scandal happened on his watch, he would personally be bird-dogging the investigation from start to finish, that he would not rest until every relevant fact had been uncovered and justice served, and if he found that it had been his own negligence that had allowed it to happen that he would personally apologize to the victims, to all Iraqis and to all of America.

I like this idea that this is the sort of behavior we want to teach our kids. I tell my son all the time that I'm not gonna clobber him for doing something wrong, we all make mistakes, but he has to own up to it and take responsibility. If it's his fault and he says so and says he's sorry, he gets a big hug and some fatherly advice about how to avoid repeat screw-ups. But if he tries to lay blame on someone else or weasel out of his responsibility, he ends up punished every time. He's starting to put this together, and understand something that we have not seen in our government officials except rarely: there is great value and honor in accepting your responsibility and admitting your mistakes.

Kerry wouldn't even have to hammer the point that bush* is constantly coming up with alibis... all he has to say is, "My administration will be my responsibility and I will be responsible for what it does." That is a potent message that stands in stark contrast to what we have today.

[goclark]

58. Bush is a FLOP

Throw that "flip flop" mess back in his face.


Say, "Bush is rigid and wrong. Being Rigid is not a strength it is a weakness! A star quarterback doesn't keep throwing the ball when the receiver is not open to catch the pass."

"This is HIS War and it is FLOP!!! HE was/is the Commander and Chief and he ultimately made the call- the Buck stops at HIS Oval office."

"I would FLIP and get out and get the UN in and etc. etc."

"Rumsfeld is HIS Defense Secretary and Rumsfeld is a FLOP!!!
I would FLIP him out of there and put John McCain or John Warner or Carl Levin in there NOW!"

Ps/ I know JK can't say it but this is my opinion of Bush..." You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit!"

And one more thing-- I would always refer to him as JK instead of JFK. It is unique ans special just like John Kerry !! He needs to clearly identify who he is -- JK , our next President.

[Rebellious Republican]

65. YES, this is a golden opportunity to.....

Clear up his anti Vietnam war protests, and make Bush look bad, kill two birds with one stone so to speak. He could tie it altogether by making a statement like, I have seen the face of war and the atrocities that are committed during wartime. This is why upon my return home from Vietnam I spoke out against it, the only way one can understand this is by being there. I have been torn between supporting todays troops and opposing the war, as evidenced by certain votes that I have had to cast pro or con on funding this quagmire. I feel for our brave men and women who are there now, I have a better understanding than President Bush and Vice President Cheney just how they feel. I to was under orders to do things that I would not ordinarily do on my own. On one hand you have a sense of duty and on the other you have your own morals to contend with. You also have the threat of disciplinary actions if you disobey an order by a superior. Then you have the chain of command that may or may not be sympathetic to ones situation. This is a great burden to bear for someone so young and inexperienced. I support our troops and understand what they are going through, I do oppose the war in general, as I believe this is not the direction we should be taking. When bills come up for a vote I am forced to make decisions that on one hand says I do or do not support these young men and women, and on the other It says I do or do not support the war. This puts me in positions that are very complicated....
So on and so forth, I am sure you get my meaning. But this a golden opportunity to tie his anti Vietnam war, his so called flip flopping on the war, make Shrub and the Dick look like the chicken hawks that they are and be sensitive to the plight of the average on the ground in country soldier and whatever else you can think of. YES this is the time, if properly worded, for Kerry to quash RW talking points and make them look bad. So whatdaya think?

[DoBotherMe]

76. Yes, this is good

because I really believe that this IS Kerry's inner argument. He is a complex person because of the dichotomous(sp)nature of his life. I like the way you have laid out the argument, very generalized with no specific illustrations (this is where I think Kerry tamps his passion when he is compelled to bring in specific examples). He really doesn't need to give us his resume ... he should assume when he says "I was there" he knows of what he speaks. D ; )

[Rebellious Republican]

77. Thanks, sorry for the bad grammer, I was just banging it out .

I went back and cleaned it up a bit.

[klook]

137. I like this but...

The "This puts me in positions that are very complicated" part is a little weak. If this starts sounding like a defense of Kerry's voting record, it's a non-starter. He needs to come out with strong, unequivocal statements on this.

[Rebellious Republican]

146. You make a good point, I am definitely not a political speech

writer, thats why I have decided to keep my day job. I do think this is a good time to tie a bunch of stuff together,embarrass Bush and score some points with Vets and the troops. I have seen many good posts as to how to do it, and thanks for the positive comments.:hi:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

66. "We need to rejoin the community of nations. When the Bush administration

declares that the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are not subject to the Geneva convention, we have created in effect an American gulag and announced ourselves to not be governed by international law. We now see the result. As President, my number one priority will be to restore the reputation of this country in the community of nations, and to do everything in my power to reestablish the mutual trust and respect we once had with our traditional allies and the rest of the world. This will not be an easy task."



As far as specfics, Kerry should call for an investigation of all military prison facilities where foreign nationals are being held, particularly in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo. The purpose being to determine whether the behaviors being observed in Abu Ghraib are indeed isolated malfeasance or represent a pattern of mistreatment reflecting official, or "off the record" administration policy.

He could reflect upon his own service as a combat infantry officer, and the concerns he would have had about the fates of his men had they become POWs if this sort of American behavior became widely known. Of course that scores points against Bush "serving" in TANG vs. Kerry being in combat, but it might not be good since many of our own POWs like McCain were so badly treated in prison, could muddy the issue.

[librechik]

67. he should hammer on the fact that no one will trust us on anything

now, as long as Bush is in charge. It's like having a crooked lying embezzling CEO, once the customers get burned, they don't come back! Bush has borrowed us into bankrupotcy up to the third generation and wants to borrow more! We can't afford him! He's obvious and arrogant in his crimes now, we can't let him continue to get away with it, it will ruin us! The shareholders have to butt in and throw the bastard out! No one will do business with us. He has blown any trust we may have had.

He should also read this:

www.commondreams.org/views04/0510-12.htm

and this:

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2004/1/question-lieberman.asp

He needs to get going like our lives depend on getting rid of this guy. They do. He looks entirely too relaxed and compacent.

[scarletwoman]

68. What I REALLY want to see is a BIG theme! Like "What is America?"

Please bear with me while I attempt to explain what I mean.

First, I am unmoved and unimpressed by the current Kerry ads, the "biography" stuff. I understand the rationale; introduce who Kerry is, but so what? They tell me nothing about the direction in which a Kerry presidency might MOVE this country.

These ads seem weak to me -- sort of, "Please like me! I'm a nice guy! My daughter thinks so, my wife thinks so!"

I want to say, "This isn't about YOU, John Kerry, this is about US!"

Shift the focus: What's at stake here? What is Kerry really concerned about? His chances of being elected, or the soul of our country?

People love attention, CRAVE attention. You draw people in by making them feel engaged, useful, important.

So design a campaign that actually calls on people to ponder something. Pose the question: "What kind of America do YOU want?" Get OUT of the Repug frame of "War on Terror" and "security" and such, it's all bogus anyway.

Create an entirely new frame: "Let us come together to be the BEST of ourselves. Let us live up to our highest ideals of freedom, courage, equality, and rule of law. Let us be a light in the world -- not by empty words which are betrayed by actions that have created more anger and hatred in the world -- but by living up to the true heart of what America has always striven to be, and CAN be again."

I wish I could do a better job of explaining what I mean, I just hope that maybe you can sort of get my drift.

Thanks for the opportunity, in any case.

sw

[ElementaryPenguin]

129. Truly an excellent post, swoman!

:bounce:

[AspenRose]

153. And I would add to Scarlett's great suggestion

not to preface or prop up the "what kind of America do you want" question with the "two Americas" statement that Edwards used in all his speeches. Not that it was necessarily bad, but it grew tiresome with a lot of people.

[cally]

70. Initially, express sadness and horror

and that all of this needs investigation and those responsible must be fired.

Then start emphasizing why we need to follow Geneva conventions and international treaties. I would have military affiliates do this.

This will help set up a theme for the global warming movie. Same response then. Horror that this admin has done nothing and rebuffs other nations.

[Cogito ergo doleo]

72. Did we become a world leader by

breaking treaties, or by following the Geneva Conventions just when it suited us, or insulting our steadfast friends of other countries?

We won't lower the bar on expectations any more. No more half-measures, no more broken treaties, severed relationships with countries, etc. The Bush slacking has trivialized our ideals and we need to be reminded of the reality that when we work to be best we can be it matters and makes a difference in the world.

Our country is going through a horrible time of doubt, shame, and terror. Kerry could connect with the nation now in a realistic but hopeful way. Not just on key issues, but in overall leadership - reminding us of who we are, who we have been, and who we can be again as a people and a country.

The message contained in "I met a man named Franko," posted on DU by Stephanie, says it so much better than I can. If nothing else, please give a copy of this post to your friend for Sen. Kerry to read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1574256&mesg_id=1574256

[lagniappe]

74. Kerry should remain above the fray.

I hope that our next president would stay positive. I think he should talk about how America should be a moral beacon for the world (this is a great opportunity to grab the morality issue from Bush). The people who committed these acts should be punished, but I think he should avoid attacking Bush at this point (let our VP do it).

The last few weeks have been very hard. The torture videos and the Berg video have freaked a lot of people out. I know this might sound sappy, but I think many people want a leader to tell them everything will be all right. Kerry should articulate a message that calms people down rather than inflames the opposition.

George Bush has chosen to lead through fear and emotion. John Kerry has a golden opportunity to demonstrate his real leadership during these difficult times.

[natrat]

78. dumbass is billed as this moral Christian

is it moral to lie to get bills passed and get wars started ?
is it moral to allow corporations to run the people's government?
is it moral to reveal the identity of a cia agent?
i don't think Jesus would be too happy with the moron

[klook]

139. Not too late.

I think you're right on target, Lagniappe.

People are looking for a leader who is firm and positive, with a message of real hope for America and the world. Not just vague platitudes, not Pollyanna stuff. And sure as hell not Bush Lite.

Talk about returning America to its rightful place of leadership in the world. Kerry's America, our America, will lead by example, not by lies and bullying. It's not to late to reclaim the future.

[Octafish]

81. "The TRUTH will come out."

And as President, I would do all I can to use the truth to right the wrongs created by the treatment of Iraqi POWs and civilians. I would do what is needed to correct the manner in which our government conducts its affairs and prosecutes the war on terror. I also intend to discover and prosecut those responsible for the mistreatment of these people. To accomplish this requires presidential leadership and I would provide the vision, know-how and backbone the office of President demands.

[ElementaryPenguin]

103. Good reasoned response, O.

Kerry obviously can't go over the top (though I may want him to) - he needs to seem presidential (which shouldn't be a difficult task when you're being compared to Chimpy!).

[Eloriel]

82. Others have addressed it, but do not EVER call Kerry "JFK"

It makes my blood boil and just when Howard Dean had pretty much convinced me to vote for the useless oaf, you come along with that JFK crap and jerk me SO outta that frame of mind it's astonishing even to me.

Having said that, I concur with the "ask Howard Dean" advice.

But another thing I was thinking to myself today is this: Democrats have GOT to stop allowing all the lies -- about every fucking thing. I sat and watched lie after lie to the Senate Armed Services Committee. I'm TIRED of people lying to Congress, lying to the people, lying just because they are habitual, pathological liars. Kerry could make a good start, IMO, to start calling them on those lies. Start with Rummy's testimony, Miller's, then on to Cambone's. There is PLENTY of material out there to refute almost every goddamned thing each of them said. I don't see Kerry delivering a lengthy message on it -- or, hmm, maybe he could, come to think of it -- but it sure ought to be documented on his website and he ought to direct people there.

I'm just sick and tired of the lies and I think other Americans are too. Unfortunately, John Forbes Kerry doesn't strike any of us as much better in the lie department, but he could GET better, had he the courage to do so.

NO ONE is served by telling lies, nor allowing others' lies to go unchallenged. In fact, democracy depends on an informed public, and that requires facts and truth. I'd like to see someone (other than Howard Dean) start deailng in the truth.

[WilliamPitt]

84. Welcome back

...from the shill shitt monster.

:)

[JohnLocke]

85. You're back!

We missed you. :hug:

[VelmaD]

86. Eloriel you know I have the greatest respect for you...

and that more often than not we have found ourselves on the same side of issues. But I have to say that I hope you're engaging in a little hyperbole when you imply that your vote hinges on what someone says on an internet board.

[madfloridian]

117. Welcome back, friend!

I am with you on the JFK bit, as it is just not right.

Kerry should determine how he feels, and then just say it. Just say it plainly.

[harrison]

83. What truly distinguishes America is the Good ole Constitution and

the Bill of Rights. The good Senator should point out that our Constitution is the greatest document ever molded by human hands and has served us well for 200 years. That we believe the Bill of Rights should be modeled the world over; that this torture business goes against our values, the US Constitution and we have to have accountability in this matter.

He should hammer on the Constitution and say that as the President is going to follow that Constitution, protect it and do his best to see that those values are respected and protected by all Americans.

[ElementaryPenguin]

125. Thanks, harrison. You are so right!

:toast:

[starroute]

87. Phrase it in terms of American values

I think all know that the underlying problem is that for the last sixty years, we have assumed that Americans could be good at the same time that American foreign policy was evil -- and that somehow it would all come out even. Or that Americans could afford to be nice only because they enjoyed the protection of American agents who were mean and ruthless and barbaric.

That set of assumptions is what's now falling apart -- and Kerry needs to say as much, but without sounding negative. Maybe something like:

"In a time of testing, when nothing seems to be working very well, you need to figure out what are your real strengths and rely on those. Though we may sometimes discount it, the greatest strength of America has always been its ability to be a model for others. To be fairer and more open and more optimistic. To set high ideals and be the first to criticize ourselves when we fail to meet them. To be so secure in our strength that we can even afford to give others the benefit of the doubt.

"After 9/11, our self-confidence was shaken. We began to question ourselves and our values. Some have even suggested that we need to become as ruthless as our worst enemies in order to combat them, or that we need to give up our open, honest American way of life.

"I don't believe that. The events of the last few weeks have shown that when Americans stop behaving like Americans, they lose everything. The people of the world may not judge themselves by the standards of American values, but they do judge us that way. If we set aside what has made America great, we surrender our greatest strength while gaining nothing in return.

"I propose that we reassert a true American standard of behavior. That we pledge ourselves to get to the bottom of these horrific abuses, let the chips fall where they may. That we make clear our reliance on our core American values of honesty, openness, and following the higher path.

"Terrorists are capable of doing a limited amount of damage to us, but they can never harm the true soul of America. Only we can do that to ourselves. If we let the fear of terror push us into surrending our values, the terrorists will have truly won. That is something I will stand against with every fiber of my being."

[ElementaryPenguin]

124. Great post, star!

:bounce:

[kaitykaity]

88. Tell him to keep QUIET.

Let his proxies, like Clark, Dr. Dean, McCain, et. al.,
keep up the pressure for Rumsfeld to resign.

The one liner about "what happens in my command" was
very good. That's all he needs.

There's something to be said for the candidate to take
on that presidential air. You know, how the Thugs say
"we didn't call anyone unpatriotic" when all their little
mouthpieces say it all the time. The more presidential
Kerry looks, the better our chances.

There's also that little thing about "if your opponent
is digging himself a hole, don't stop him."

[ElementaryPenguin]

102. Good post.

Much as I want Kerry to blast - keeping relatively quiet and above the fray while Chimpy hangs himself makes plenty of sense.

[indigobusiness]

89. Demand transparency in govt

stress that lies become a tangled web and secrecy makes it worse.

[ElementaryPenguin]

111. Good approach, methinks.

Simple and to the heart of one of the major problems with ChimpCo.

[indigobusiness]

127. prob with govt in general...Oh, and he should consult

The Sludge Report on a regular basis. (for any lacking complexity)

http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[Dems2002]

90. Response - This should be beyond politics

From the beginning, the republican response has been that talking about or making use of these pictures in any way, shape or form is "being political."

They say this because, by and large, the republicans have refrained from taking much action and have used their flunkies in the press to poo poo the photos and torture.

John Kerry needs to stand up for our soldiers, for our ideals and for the Geneva Convention. Maybe we need a freakin' history lesson...

Unfortunately, the one thing he should say is the thing that would place him out on a limb. He needs to condemn the torture, Guantanamo Bay, The Patriot Act and the culture of fear that the republicans foment with their color coordinated screens.

He needs to stand up and say that this is America. The land of the free. And that if that ends up meaning that some innocent people die, that is the price we pay to live in a free country rather than a dictatorship.

All the rules may sound like their doing something, but what they're doing is taking away from us what makes us better.

Everytime Bush says you're either with us or you're against us, he tacitly undercuts our Constitution and our first amendment.

Everytime we kidnap someone from this country and hold them indefinitely without a trial, we undercut the fourth amendment.

And on and on and on.

There is a reason we have a Constitution. Everytime we have over ridden this document we have been shamed. We must return to honoring the ideals set forth in this document. We may never succeed in becoming perfect, but by trying, we can work our way back into the good graces of the rest of the world and bring them with us instead of pushing more and more people against us every day.

We must ask ourselves, what are our lives worth?

Dems

[T Bone]

91. The fault is with CONTRACTING out Govt functions to mercenaries

I bet $ it all leads back to contractors & sub-contrators --mercenaries and their ilk, who low-level military were being given orders from. SO who HIRED the contractors and gave them their orders?

We need a full accounting of the contractors at work in that prison. The contracts and receipts for their services should be available to the US Public. In detail.

[goclark]

92. Keep it simple

Stick with the sound bites!

Don't let the media whores snip out your brilliant answers.

Good example that I saw in this thread regarding Rumsfeld -" Fire The Lier."

Another " Bush is a FLOP"

Give up hell JK!

[drfemoe]

94. Senators,

even Rummy, and journalists are saying we've LOST. Or there is so much uncertainty, they just don't know WHAT might happen.

I don't know if it would be 'politicizing', but is there any harm in pointing out that now the Iraq* people have been and are being terrorized (not just the prisoners), and that Americans are being terrorized daily. Who needs a big bomb? It is torturous for some of us to see body boxes flooding into our country. To see a fellow civilian citizen brutally murdered. To be cognizant that the men in charge are out of control and have NO PLAN to resolve the unending torture for all of us. The *Terror* goes on.

One article I read earlier compared whoosh*'s reaction to the Aug 2001 PDB with his reaction to the torture reports he saw in FEBRUARY. He did NOTHING. *Terror* has multiplied exponentially since he determined to "stop swatting flies". So now we have man-eating condors, and no condor swatters.

It isn't limited to "torture gate". It is "do nothing gate". It is "turn the world into chaos gate". It is "TRAUMAGATE". His "policies" have resulted in daily trauma for people the world over. He traumatizes the environment, the economy, any shred of dignity and honor (by doing "nothing"). It's outright ABUSE against all of humanity and the planet we inhabit. Torture gate is just a small (not insignificant) part of the whole pattern of abuse and trauma this regime has wrought, and continues each day to launch at increasing levels. He's brought the pot to a roiling boil. He needs to be put aside so that reasonable men and women can begin to RESTORE the checks and balances, return a level of honor to humanity (all of us), take measures to safeguard our planet's environment, and fire the corporate sponsors who feed off the chaos.

It can't be parsed out as a *single issue*. It is but one symptom of those who would rule by terror. That's probably a little strong for the talk show circuit. So, it isn't whoosh himself who is the terrorizer. It is his "do nothing but escalate" POLICIES. He's not going to stop on his own. So he must be retired from office to bring an end to the traumatic escalations.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[starroute]

98. They're not "soliciting advice" -- they're looking for memes

Call it using DU as a focus group, if you will. It makes every sense that people who run campaigns would be using the Internet to find out what grass-roots Democrats are thinking, which arguments and phrases play well and which quickly get shot down, how the public perception distinguishes legitimate arguments from personal attacks.

I have no idea if they're really doing this -- but it seems to me that tossing a question like that out on DU and seeing what comes back could be an extremely valuable tool.

[cheezus]

99. Bush and Rumsfeld are passing the buck - to our troops

When there are obvious failures in leadership - a broken chain of command, bush not even knowing, the red cross reporting this months ago - the leaders are placing the blame on the brave men and women in uniform.
When Kerry testified about the crimes in Vietnam, he placed the blame where it belonged. Not on the troops who were bravely doing their duty, but on those responsible for the policies and command. Now there are more crimes in a war, and the president is trying place the blame solely on our men in women in uniform. This is a despicable act of cowardice, and the president and secretary of defense should be ashamed that they giving comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at further risk.

[ima_sinnic]

101. he can start by NOT calling it "Torture-gate"--NEVER, EVER

Watergate was truly a dumb fraternity prank compared to the many atrocities of our dumbazz illegitimate "leader" and his goon squad of a-holes. When I see "Torture-gate" I am offended that someone would reduce it to a dumb cliche of a "scandal"--and one that was actually quite minor.

You can tell your friend we're tired of waiting for Kerry to pull out the "ammo" he's supposedly been saving against BFEE (all that stuff I kept hearing about during the primaries, about how Kerry had all this insider info against the BFEE, BCCI, and their whole mob doings) and wondering when he is going to file charges against the war criminal.

[ElementaryPenguin]

106. Your point is well taken.

However, while I agree that BushCo does far worse every day of the week - I would never refer to Watergate as "actually quite minor."

[ima_sinnic]

109. I agree there are not "degrees" of illegality

--BushCo has however greatly exceeded the crime of wiretapping/eavesdropping on the Democrats.

[usregimechange]

107. Wait for details to come out before Kerry responds

but it may be better to almost ignore it and continue with health care, education, etc. He can not appear to be using it is a political card.

[Andy_Stephenson]

108. With John's yes vote for war...

I find his need for help a bit hypocritical. :eyes:

[ElementaryPenguin]

110. HE (as far as I know) isn't asking for help - his aides are looking for

Ideas - from every source available, which I think is a wise move. There are many great suggestions on this thread, which they will be able to sort through.

[never cry wolf]

112. Personally, I think he should HAMMER the admin

Bring the responsibility right to the top where it belongs! Don't let them get away with the "few bad apples" argument.

Check out this EXCELLENT thread started by Tinoire over the weekend:

Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees ((neo-con Doug Feith))

Bar Association: Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees
Salon is reporting that a report compiled by the Committee on International Law of the New York City Bar Association has found that the American military's treatment of detainees and prisoners of war in Afghanistan, Cuba and Iraq violates international law — and the compilers of the report say that the techniques employed by interrogators at prisons such as Abu Ghraib were "sanctioned by Pentagon political appointees."

Joe Conason of Salon reports that Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler and chair of the Committee on International Law was told by "senior" members of the Judge Advocate General Corps that high ranking political appointees were behind the abuse. Says Conason:

http://www.warblogging.com /




Lack of protection

<snip>

Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Douglas Feith, President Bush's Undersecretary of Defense for Policy — and number three man at the Pentagon — reportedly summed up Protocol One of the Geneva Conventions of 1977 as "law in the service of terrorism".

much more-----> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x49554

[ElementaryPenguin]

114. Good little sound bite there: This isn't a case of "a few bad apples"

"We've got to get rid of this whole stinking cart!"

Or "the few bad apples aren't American soldiers - they're Bush Administration OFFICIALS - starting at the very top!"

[RobinA]

113. If They Are Coming to DU

for tips on how to run the campaign, I would suggest new leadership, like...yesterday.

[madfloridian]

123. LOL

:evilgrin:

[Walt Starr]

115. Okay, I've seen this tjhread at the top for a while, so my recommendation

EVOLVE A SPINE!

[madfloridian]

121. On his recent BBC interviews, Dean keeps referring to privatizing military

He keeps making the point that so much of the military is now privatized, and no one seems to be in control.

This is a serious problem, and it is not addressed. Why should I have to listen to BBC to hear what my country is doing? Approach it from this direction.

[LeahMira]

122. Truth hurts...

"As much as I hold Bush and his neoconservative chicken-hawks responsible for this
cruel disregard for human life, it is important to acknowledge that these policies have
started more than a decade ago, and continued under Bill Clinton as well. The largest
number of Iraqi casualties, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, came as a result
of the US enforced sanctions on Iraq which led to so many perishing from lack of food
and simple medicine. The epitome of this disregard for human life in Iraq was the May
12th 1996 conversation between Madeline Albright and the 60 Minutes reporter Lesley
Stahl. Stahl asked Albright: 'We have heard that a half million children have died...I
mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And—and you know, is the price
worth it?' Albright, responded: 'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price—we think
the price is worth it.' "

http://www.tikkun.org/index.cfm/action/current/article/235.html

[loudsue]

128. I think Kerry should answer the charge DIRECTLY about

"politicizing" the prison torture problem, AND the war....because it's all pretty much the same set of lies and cover-up.

I can't suggest HOW they should word it, but the fact that ALL Americans are paying out the nose for this military debacle, and it's the president and his cabal that are spending like drunken sailors to cover the lies that got us there, and the atrocities that are being committed there -- in the name of the U.S. government..It IS political. And, in fact, it SHOULD be considered politically INCORRECT to peddle these lies, and expect Americans to pay for it!

The post above, about tying what is going on to the bush administration "politicizing" the 9/11 tragedy (by doing the repug convention at the 9/11 site, and selling photos of bush in the airplane while running away from 9/11), and that bush USED that politically to get us into war with someone who had NOTHING to do with 9/11, makes it BUSH who has played this politically.

I would like Kerry to answer all these blame-game charges head on, and throw it all back in bush's lap.

I also admired the poster above who tied the torture thing back into the constitutional position about respecting treaties made by our government, and how bush (as commander in chief) is not taking responsibility, or insisting we get to the bottom of it, not matter how high up it goes.

I think Kerry needs to nip-in-the-bud the whole right wing spin on the media of "politicizing", some things that indeed are being done under the direction of political appointees. (the president, in this case, also being a political appointee.)

:kick:

[ElementaryPenguin]

130. Right on, Sue!

:toast:

[July]

132. He can easily answer them.

How are the American people to judge who is most fit for election in November if he does not say what he thinks about the most important issues we face. It is his obligation to talk about everything the country is dealing with today, and about everything that comes up between now and the election.

[BattyDem]

131. Four words

"What have we become?"

He needs to point out that one of the (many, many) reasons we went to Iraq was to "liberate" the Iraqis so they would no longer have to live in fear under Saddam.

Instead ...
- We bombed everything in sight, killing thousands of innocent civilians
- We brought chaos, insecurity and terrorism to the country
- We are arresting people (in midnight raids of their homes) for no good reason and without letting them have any contact with their families, the Red Cross, lawyers, etc.
- We are abusing, raping, sodomizing, terrorizing, torturing and killing "prisoners" - and up to 90% of them are innocent and have been arrested "by mistake"
- We have administration officials and Republican members of Congress saying the abuse and torture is not a big deal. In other words, they think it's perfectly fine for us to treat other human beings any way we want because they don't matter - we were attacked so we have the "right" to terrorize the world.
- We have an administration that not only refuses to be accountable for anything, but they refuse to hold anyone else accountable ... unless it's some poor, low-level grunt who is "expendable"
- We have an administration that has blown all the money allocated for war on "private contractors," when our troops can do the same jobs (and used to do those jobs) for a fraction of the cost. Instead of allowing Iraqis to rebuild their own country, which would give them jobs, income and hope, we are letting Halliburton do it for a RIDICULOUS amount of money! Can you say WAR PROFITEERING?
- Our media has been hijacked by corporate interests who won't report the truth for fear of losing money, political favors or access to the White House. In other words, our "free press" has become grossly biased and censored, rendering it useless - much like the state-run media in dictatorships and Communist regimes.
- Our First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights have been obliterated, while the rest of them are well on their way to the same fate. "First Amendment Zones" have completely undermined the meaning and power of the First Amendment. The Patriot Act is nothing more than a legal means to a dictatorship.

To say it simply: "I have seen the enemy and it is us."


What have we become?
EVERYTHING we used to despise and fight against. Is this the kind of America we want to live in? Is this the kind of America we want to be? We don't have to worry about "terrorists" destroying our Democracy - we're doing it on our own. They attacked us once and over the last three years, we have given them a greater victory than they ever could have imagined. :(

[ElementaryPenguin]

134. Wow, BD! Awesome post!

:toast:

[rucky]

149. That says it all. Thanks! n/t

[robbedvoter]

136. Clark already said it for him:

We know there was no linkage between Saddam Hussein and the events of 9/11. We know now there was no imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction, the last claim of the administration is to do good in Iraq by providing democracy, an opportunity for democracy and higher standards.  And here we are with this compromising the higher standards that we believe in. 

[yellowdawgdem]

138. don't back down but chill out

I think Kerry's calling for Rumsfield's resignation was the right thing for starts. He should also be a strong voice for keeping the photos as public domain, because if this gets swept under the rug we will lose big time. I think that he should, if this is possible, be candid in his response, yet understated. He should not continue along the lines of feeding the American public more of the bland pablum they get from the media.
He needs to say that this is not an isolated incident, that it is part of a systemic corruption that reaches higher into the chain of command. Also people need to know that there are numerous prison abuses in the U.S. that are also being played out as isolated instances. He could draw some kind of a parallel to the abuses in Gitmo, and tie the whole thing together as part and parcel of a systemic breakdown. I also think that consulting with Al Gore would be a good idea, I mean in addition to all the other biggie wiggies that he probly talks to.

[Tinoire]

140. First off - he should hire me to do his research ;)

and with the gems I provide him proceed to fiery, eloquent, YOUNG Kerry statements about demanding that a 4th investigation be conducted and unlike Taguba's this one should focus ABOVE the Brigade level because the ENTIRE APPLE CART needs to be examined.

Kerry's response to torture gate will make or break him with recalcitrant progressives.

Sheesh, I could walk Kerry out of his IWR vote in my sleep if he could snap out of his apologetics mode because it's insulting to the intelligence of recalcitrant progressives.

Seriously, Kerry needs to forget he's 60-some, dump the mildewed LDC hacks around him & start speaking to youth and passion.

[madfloridian]

141. Tinoire, you rock.

Keep up the good research. I went through my saved research files, and many were yours. And Eloriel's. Back to mid 2002.

[Tinoire]

142. Lol... Eloriel's research is something to behold!

Over half the stuff that woke me up to the present danger we're in came from Eloriel and Hedda-Foil. You're a gem. And you rock! DU rocks! I just like rocking the boat ;)

[Tinoire]

143. He should also let Teresa loose on the talk show circuit talking about it

She is his greatest asset.

By the time that lady is done, no one will have any doubt about how her class & passion will greatly help restore our battered image.

And note, this is coming from a non-Kerry fan.

Turn Teresa loose.

[wiggs]

144. Ends and Means

This prison issue is just another manifestation of an overall problem with this administration.....literally the ends justify any means.

THE ENDS: Who knows what these are with respect to any issue? The closest we get are guesses about the ideologies associated with trickle-down economies, what is good for global corporations is good for America, protection of American interests at any cost,....

THE MEANS: Anything necessary. Lying to congress. Lying to the public. Eliminating dissenting opinion from the administration. Outing undercover spouses. Re-writing history. Underestimating costs. Ignoring science and facts. Letting privates take the fall for unspoken policy of higher-ups. Blaming others. Discrediting and punishing those insiders who tell the rest of us their observations of the administration. Misleading under the guise of informing. Walling off the executive branch from oversight. Grabbing power for the executive branch, bribing congressmen for votes, etc. etc..

If Kerry can rely on overall, over-arching themes like this and many other good ones in this thread, then the campaign will not be dependent on unpredictable twists and turns of each issue. (By the way and speaking of twist and turns, why isn't anyone saying what Clinton said when coming into office...that it's easy to warm up the economy if you are writing bogus checks and creating a deficit?)

Time to bluntly emphasize the across the board tendencies to make bad decisions. It's good that Kerry is taking the high road, but on days where there are HUGE, ugly issues out there being discussed, it seems odd that the press is reporting Kerry's stance on scholarships. When there's an elephant in the room, focusing discussion on the choice of colors for the couch pillows seems small.

Another key Kerry talking point: Kelly Ann Conway.

Sorry for the rant.

Wiggs

[loudsue]

150. Wow, Wiggs! Awesome first post!!! Welcome to DU!

You hit all those nails on the head.

:hi::toast::beer:WE'RE GLAD YOU'RE HERE!:party::hi::silly:

Your ideas are right on the money!

:kick::kick::kick:

[Tellurian]

151. Kerry hasn't found his stride yet-

He's getting there slowly. (if he wants to know some thing, all he has to do is ask us. right?):)

I believe the people on this board are a good crossection of universally accepted values. This president is spending our flesh and blood faster than he can spend taxpayer money creating a deficit with no end in sight. Hello? Isn't this leading the people to slaughter?

[Malva Zebrina]

147. Kerry is ignoring the base

there is a faction here that has shifted to the middle and lots of us are being ignored and are angry that we are forced to vote for Kerry to get rid of evil, but, we are. Personally, I admired Dean and admire Kucinich above all.

I may not go to the polls . I am so sick of play acting on the part of everyone involved.

This country is broken--and not only by the Republicans.

Kerry is playing the game, and it has become an ingrained habit due to his beltway contacts. I am sick of game players and sick of rich people catering to other rich people.

[calimary]

152. Some ideas I already suggested elsewhere here in GD...

Check this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1594656

[nomaco-10]

154. If this really is a bona fide attempt to solicit ....

advice from a group of democrats on a message board from inside the Kerry campaign, I would have to say, this is exactly what is wrong with the Kerry campaign. If he can't speak spontaneously and from the heart in an unvetted and non nuanced way to the question of the horrific events at Abu Graib prison, then he really will have a problem connecting to a major part of his constituency in November.