The Berg and Pearl deaths are almost IDENTICAL.... anyone else notice

[radwriter0555]

that?

Thoughts? Ponderances... projections, conjecture?

Think about this with me.....

(scratching head).....

[burythehatchet]

1. been there

we are al-queda

[orestes]

2. If you mean

sawing off their heads with knives, it was used in Afghanistan against Soviet soldiers, and I think it's been used on occasion in Chechnya as well. I believe at least one instance in Chechnya was videotaped and released in a similar manner to Berg and Pearl.

[radwriter0555]

4. but the guys who offed berg weren't al queda, and niether were the folks

who offed pearl.

[Bombtrack]

7. Oh were you there "radwriter" ?

No you weren't. And I'd appreciate if you attempted to discontinue stating and presenting facts not yet in evidence.

[radwriter0555]

10. ok, tell me why al queda would be in iraq.

much less allegedly defending the interests of their sworn enemies.

Start there.

[killbotfactory]

16. Because that's were most American soldiers are...

And they were enemies with Saddam and his gov't, not the people.

[radwriter0555]

21. No. Al queda does the work of Al queda, for al queda. Going after

a whole ARMY is REALLY silly, when in fact, the iraqis are defending themselves.

Al queda isn't going to insert themselves into A freaking WAR just to get ONE civilian.

That makes no sense. It would jeopardize their entire operation.

AQ operates out of cities, not the desert.

[gold_bug]

34. it's probably in their best interest

that Iraq turn into a huge mess.

more chaos and bloodshed = more hatred of America = more recruits.

I actually believe there's not a significant presence of AQT in Iraq, though I'm almost certain they're thrilled with every move BushCo has made in Iraq.

[Bombtrack]

17. Al Queda being in Iraq post occupation has been confirmed for months

by people including probably every democrat on the intelligence, armed services, and foreign policy committees of both houses of congress, the United Nations and the democrat appointed director of the CIA.

It's not even in dispute by anyone with a hold on reality.

And having one of it's young men's head cutt off is not in the United States interest.

[radwriter0555]

30. confirmed? NO. CONJECTURED, oh yes. PROVEN? Oh NO...

not one name, not one operative, not one hideout, stakeout, fingerprint, NOTHING.

Every single reported "incident" of al queda in iraq is hedged with the one word "ALLEGED", or else couched with "ties to al queda" in the NEXT article.

Bush NEEDS al queda in iraq to justify his phony fucking "war on terror' because if he's not 'fighting terrorists' he's just slaughtering innocent iraqis for NOTHING.

There isn't ONE iota of proof that al queda is in iraq for ANY type of business.

Show me ONE single al queda terrorist in prison, dead, in custody, being questioned or being held by ANYONE in the US Military.

See what I mean?

Just like WMD's, there is NOTHING.

[Solomon]

39. Why would you expect any evidence that al qaeda is in Iraq when

they haven't given us one shred of evidence that al qaeda attacked the wtc on 9-11?

You guys flame all you want, but everybody takes it as a given that al qaeda did 9-11. I haven't seen any evidence, fake videotape notwithstanding.

Nothing.

[maxpower]

44. Exactly

Where is the proof they said would show they were behind 9-11. The taliben said they would give up Bin Laden with proof of his guilt. Never happened. I believe Al Queda is the new bogey man, created by the cia to replace the evil empite.

[radwriter0555]

46. My position exactly, since al queda has never taken CREDIT for the WTC,

and those guys LOVE the noteriety.

(Side note, no one has ever taken credit for the WTC)

People like al queda like the glory they get with their deeds. Thrive on the recognition, like serial killers who want to be caught and write letters and leave clues.

OBL always proudly took credit for his deeds and made no bones about his 'work' and denied responsibility for ops that weren't his, for example, the WTC.

More side note, OBL is dead....

[varun]

22. In Kashmir...

... the militants sawed off body parts, genitals, ears and noses from Indian Army men captured during the 1990's. They also killed four western tourists in Kashmir in 1995...one's beheaded body was found months later, others are still missing...

[susanna]

3. That was the first thing I thought

...yesterday. I was waiting for someone else to mention it. I have no idea about the rest, though (ponderances, projections, conjecture). But at least I'm not alone in noticing.

[Bombtrack]

5. Yeah and they were both jewish as well

I've seen both tapes and you are definetly right.

And just a note about the probably inevitable "this was an American conspiracy" argument that this thread will be brought into, I don't think any corrupt right-wing agent could find another 5 agents that would participate in such a hideous act. I just think it's unlikely and would prefur people reserve assigning guilt on our governments men so quickly. Of course it isn't impossible, but noone here knows it was spooks

[progressiveBadger]

11. Why not?

Maybe we couldn't find 5 AMERICAN agents to do this (something I doubt), but what about a Contra-essqe group of people that is funded and supported by the US Government? It wouldn't be the least of the horrors our tax dollars have paid for in a third world country.

[Bombtrack]

25. "funded by the US government" ughhh, what by congress?

"the us government" is a pretty ambiguous term. And the fact that people at the highest reaches of government have authorized, planned, and put into execution horrible acts does not give anyone who wants to a pass to scapegoat "THE USA" or "THE US Governmet" with any claims they feel if those people want to be credible.

Many huge atrocities and mistakes that the US has participated in should be understood by credible people to have been at the request and design of specific people. Henry Kissenger, the Helms brothers, Richard Nixon, George Herber Walker Bush, Ollie North, Otto Reich being among this group which is not huge and overreaching as the acts they committed could not have been, allbeit temporarily, conceiled from the public had they been widespread and overreaching and authorized throughout our government.

[rfranklin]

33. Funded by people in our government...

Very possible. There are slush funds of hundreds of millions of dollars hidden away by the CIA and the Pentagon which are never accounted for. Covert businesses, legal and illegal, that generate funds for little operations just like this. Let's not be naive.

[maxpower]

45. Remember the trillions

That couldn't be accounted for by the pentagon?

[radwriter0555]

14. One word. BLACKWATER.

This is the business they're IN.

Right?

[Solomon]

19. I can imagine the satisfied smug chuckles when this name for the

"company" was settled on. What symbolism. It fits in for me with Bush mode of operation, which is, hide things by doing them right in our faces.

[Karenina]

47. REALLY!

They come up with "cute names," put their *PNAC plan out there for ANYONE to read then get on with the show. Nahhh... they wouldn't do THAT... I JUST DON'T GET IT. Present company excluded, Americans are looking more braindead by the minute. IT IS A BUMMER. :cry:

[Old and In the Way]

18. Purely for discussion purposes.

Is it possible there could be a 1/2 dozen RW skinhead Nazi's in our military that would have no problem offing a civilian Jew, particularly if they thought it would serve a greater good? Like helping GWB's ME crusade at home, by implicating Islamic terrorists? It wouldn't have to necessarily be condoned by our government, but I think it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a small group of soldiers could, after being subjected to the hell of Iraq, become more twisted in their group thinking.

[w13rd0]

26. We KNOW that there are South Africans that were part of...

...apartheid ops squads, and Pinochets killers, in Iraq. How much would they charge for something like this, because we KNOW they'll do it. Hell, they'll firebomb an entire family, terrorize a village, torture people for the hell of it. And on neo-Nazis in the army, yes, but that would be difficult for them to pull off and get away with it without already being part of covert ops in some way.

[ElementaryPenguin]

29. Excellent point as usual, Old!

Revolting BFEE bastards are truly capable of pulling anything!

:puke:
:puke:

[Junkdrawer]

40. Back channel to al Qaeda...

"We'll let this guy out of prison if you do this..."

It's not like it's unheard of:

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd0909.html

[alcuno]

6. Before the war, an Iraqi official said that they would behead and

burn the bodies of our soldiers. It appears that Al Qaeda did this and it seems that there is the inclination to make things as gruesome as possible.

[radwriter0555]

13. An iraqi official said this? In what context? And.. why?

and... what 'iraqi official' would that be, since bush has hired most of them back on as the new government leaders..... ?

[alcuno]

43. I actually think it was Tariq Aziz. He obviously was saying it as a

warning to the US about invading.

[number6]

8. yes ..

..

[Padraig18]

9. 2 Jewish guys beheaded by radical Islamicists?

Yes, I noticed.

[radwriter0555]

12. nah... this isn't an islamic thing.. the boys are trying to spin it thusly

but I'm not buying it.

I'm not SEEING it.

I see a lot of stuff that smells wrong...

[Solomon]

24. I saw it and I'm not buying it either.

The yelling "Allah Akbar" while the head was sawed off smelled like a plot device. Also the lack of conviction in which it was said. And lastly, the audio and the tape don't go together.

[w13rd0]

28. It's easy to leap at their being Jewish...but there's something more...

...important. Berg was a civilian working in and around the prison who did NOT sign a confidentiality agreement. Pearl was a journalist investigating the Pakistani ISIs ties to al Queada AND the CIA.

It's marginally more difficult to off a whistleblower here in the states (though not impossible to Baxter one in Sugarland)...it'd be far easier in a country where bombs and killings happen everyday.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. "Some times a cigar is just a cigar"

---Sigmund Freud.

[progressivebydesign]

15. I wrote that earlier today.. I didn't think anyone else wondered..

I dont' know enuff about each death.. but on the surface, I felt there were similarities. I have no interest in delving deeper into either of the deaths, but would hope that those who can stomach it, and can handle it emotionally, will check that out.

I'm not into conspiracies, per se.. but every filthy lie revealed was once a conspiracy theory.

[Paradise]

20. this thread was interesting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1585675

[radwriter0555]

48. yes....

it's all connected.

[LadeJarl]

23. It's a sad story, but

I was reading another Forum and found the following comment. I haven't seent he video, nor do I have any interest in watching it.

"1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known wherabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue (compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

"Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

I believe that Berg (or this lookalike character) was first killed (perhaps
by lethal injection, poisoning, etc.), then decapitated after dead (explains
lack of blood spraying everywhere). Berg was killed by Al-Quaeda (known to be a CIA - Mossad joint venture). Berg video released at height of furor over U.S. torture of Iraqis and just before Bush was to decide whether to release additional torture videos. Now torture videos will be witheld from public for reasons of national security. Now "patriots" everywhere will laud the virtues of U.S. torture of "enemies". Sensitivity level of public gets heightened in terms of what's acceptable treatment of prisoners. Juxtaposed with decapitation, piling naked men into pyramid is nothing. Such treatment will be considered more and more acceptable even in domestic situations. George W. Bush sleeps well tonight while Berg family lives in torture. Serves Berg's father right for opposing Bush and the war of aggression against Iraq."

[mzmolly]

32. Wow.

I haven't seen the video, but I do hope he was dead first.

[Must_B_Free]

36. Add to that -

no identification of Berg as a Jew by his "Islamic" murderers, although in Pearl's case the fact was clearly identified.

[varun]

27. The Pakistan Connection?

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20040512&fname=raman&sid=1

After Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg. The modus operandi is similar. Musharraf is denounced along with Bush. Reliable sources in Karachi say that the beheading has the clear finger-print of the same three organisations, which had kidnapped and brutally killed Pearl...

[BlueStateGirl]

31. Isn't Abu Sayyaf notorious for beheading their captives?

Not sure, so I'll have to google, but weren't there two or three American missionaries beheaded in the Phillipines in 2002?

I never saw the Pearl video, but wasn't he shot before he was beheaded?

[mia]

35. How about "CSI Iraq"

for the CBS Fall lineup?
Seriously.

[arendt]

37. Reminds me of Barry Seal in Iran Contra

Seal was a mega drug dealer, flying out of Mena, AK.
He got on the wrong side of Ollie North.

Next thing you know, Seal is in some Federal slammer
in Louisiana and some very pissed off Columbian drug
dealers are tipped off.

Final result: one very dead Barry Seal. I can't recall if
they got him in or out of jail.

Anyway, when you run both the police and the so-called
terror network, you can use them both together to stage
a killing that you really set up.

But, I'm just paranoid. The CIA had nothing to do with
Barry Seal.

arendt

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kicking