Perhaps it is time to rethink women in the military

[question everything]

No, not barring them, but rethinking how they are deployed.

It is clear that having that woman - whatshername - in the photos added insults to injury. Islamic culture is not as open and egalitarian as most western are. And for a woman to, first command men, second to view them naked and, worse, humiliate their "manhood" just made the situation worse. Why inflame a society that supposedly, we want to liberate.

Now we hear that she is pregnant, and that among the photos were some of her having sex with others in what some describe as close to porno.

Men and women will be attracted to each other and will have sex when given the chance. But let them work for it, let them pursue the object of their desire, don't put them in a situation that begs for sex.

At least, this is not the reason for why people volunteer and why we send them to foreign country to be killed, injured or taken hostages.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

1. I'm not following . . . .

Women shouldn't be in OUR military, but Bush & Co are making the Iraqis accept women in governmental positions is okay?

"Men and women will be attracted to each other and will have sex when given the chance. But let them work for it, let them pursue the object of their desire, don't put them in a situation that begs for sex".

Okay... pretty much given... but 'hey man, those naked guys attached to electrodes is turning me on, let's do it!' just doesn't ring true to me for 'situations that beg for sex'.

[question everything]

28. I meant between the American men and women

but your point is taken..

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

32. The funny thing about 'between'.....

Your sentiments about women in the US military et al, brings up another interesting 'our military principles vs. "theirs"'...

Even tho WE have a "dont ask, dont tell" policy, isn't it interesting that our allies, Britain and Israel ADMIT avowed homosexuals, so all this 'dooming military morality' because of a gay guy or lesbian leading an outfit... well, they might not be AMERICAN, but those darn gays & lesbians in OTHER countries CAN BE!!!

Just one of many 'our values' that we 'draw the line in the sand at home' become fodder for the fray when in the World Campaign.

BTW, your DU ID... kudos! Definitely, QUESTION EVERYTHING!!!!

[libertad]

43. So you are saying it is ok to discriminate against women who tempt

men just by their existence? So women should be wearing burkhas in order to make sure that men never become aroused?

[question everything]

50. Read my reply #49, below

It is a matter of time and place. American conquerers humiliating men in a muslim society under occupation is not the place to discuss equal rights in western terms.

[libertad]

42. I'm not following, either. I think I'm offended by the post, unless I

am misunderstanding it.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

46. I guess he means women should be Military Attendants...

Y'know, like Flight Attendants... serve coffee & a smile and be available only during actual emergencies! <wink>

[question everything]

49. You may be offended but I am a pragmatist

We are an open society with equal opportunity for all (at least on theory) regardless of gender, race, ethnic background, economic means, etc.

But when we send troops to other countries, other countries that really do not want our troops - regardless of what Bush was dreaming - we have to be sensitive about the local population. And muslim society does not view women as equal, to start with. And for muslims to see a woman - an American woman - facing naked Iraqi men, making fun of their private parts just add more to the flame. The situation is bad enough but offending the a whole nation's culture and belief is making things worse.

You "think" that you are offended; muslim men around the word are outraged.

[ldf]

52. tough

i don't give a damn if they ARE outraged. quite a few things they do outrage me.

the best way is to show by example.

either we consider men and women equal, or we don't. no "qualifying circumstances".

it must be hell to realize those that you are doing your best to keep down ARE actually just as able as you are.

and the muslim women SURE need to see it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. i agree

we need women in combat roles, we need to broaden their role in the military. It's funny how this has become a repug talking point, blame the Women!, proving again that the repugs have no new ideas. And in case you haven't learned this already, this war was not about liberation.

[oldcoot]

9. Exactly!

If this war was about liberation, we would have allowed the Iraqis to vote in municipal elections last June. We also would not have rounded up innocent Iraqis and thrown them into prison without due process. Obviously, this war was not about liberation.

[question everything]

29. "Liberation" this is what Bush and company are telling us

In this specific case, having the woman in the photos that were spread around the world made everything worse.

[Paradise]

3. have an 18 year old girl going on 13, in my family,

and, trust me, she'd be a lamb in a lion's den. Absolutely devoid of testosterone.
perhaps, a support job of some sort; but in theatre??? :scared:

[hlthe2b]

5. Paradise, I know your comments are parental, BUT

it is just possible that if your daughter knew the extent of your assessment of her abilities/limitations, you just might SEE a demonstration of testosterone (as you put it). Many males (whose bodies may be pumping out testosterone) are similarly unsuited for the combat theater. I can't really believe you think that all women are unsuited (and by extension, all men ARE suited?)

BTW, the fight/flight reflex (epinephrine surge when under threat) is not a testosterone-driven response and is more likely to predict the ability to kill when one's life is endangered. As for violent tendencies, yes testosterone does heighten aggression, but it seems clear to me, that we may well need more soldiers that THINK FIRST, rather than GET PHYSICAL, ABUSE, or take out their anger violently on imprisoned men and women under their care. But, just in case you really don't know, ALL humans-- male AND female--produce some testosterone. Normal women do produce less than males, but your 18 year old post-puberty daughter does have testosterone circulating within her and her levels will rise as she enters her third decade of life. Still lower than in the average normal male, but there nonetheless.

Bottom line, though, is that I can understand your protective parental instincts kicking in in your discussion. But many may well perceive it to be yet another attempt to blame all this mess on women in the military. Perhaps I'll just leave you with one somewhat parallel thought: many countries (e.g. Japan) continue to be extremely racist-- especially when it comes to black Americans. Should we not allow black American male GIs to be based in Japan?

[Paradise]

14. you're absolutely correct in your assessment.

i was strictly thinking inside this little personal box, limited to her. no way was i insinuating anything else. the only ones i blame are bushbag, and his thugs. thanks for helping me out, here. :hi:

[hlthe2b]

19. Totally understandable, Paradise....

Our hopes ride with the change your daughter (and the other sons and daughters of her cohort) can bring to the future. So, I join you in wanting to keep her (as well as any other young American man or woman) out of future combat!

[question everything]

51. Last I check, our presence in Japan is not as conquerers

"many countries (e.g. Japan) continue to be extremely racist-- especially when it comes to black Americans. Should we not allow black American male GIs to be based in Japan?"

We do not grab Japanese people and put them in prison and humiliate them.

[Cleita]

7. I know boys who don't belong in the military too. It's a matter of

personality, not gender.

[Paradise]

10. you are so right, Cleita,

i was thinking one-dimensional. :(
thanks. :)

[Skittles]

17. when I was 18 I was in the military and an ace shot with an M-16

nt

[wellstone_democrat]

27. me too and have the ribbon to prove it

with oak leaf cluster i might add.

Oh, and an SP (Air Force version of MP) but back in the day, we understood niceties like the Geneva Convention and refusing illegal orders. Oh yeah, and our commanders were competent.

[roach23]

4. WTF

our male soldiers made the female prisoners strip naked in front of them too, and these women can be put to DEATH for being seen naked by a man. so I guess men shouldn't be allowed in the military either!!

[IronLionZion]

25. and some of them hate Americans

so no Americans should be in the military either! Guns intimidate them so no guns either! :crazy:

And the US military should not be in Iraq anyway.

[newyawker99]

41. Hi roach23!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[pscot]

6. I have never heard of any woman

distinguishing herself in combat. Not in the U.S military, or the Israeli, or the Dutch or anywhere else. It's time to admit that it was a bad idea and get off it. Joan of Arc neve swung a sword in anger. She heard voices.

[Baltimoreboy]

8. That seems inherently unfair

We live in a democracy and part of the obligation of citizenship should be the opportunity to serve in the police, the fire department and the military. If you are saying that women can't do these things then you are claiming they are in fact a "weaker sex" and I don't accept that.

[hlthe2b]

11. And you are such an avid follower of military statistics, that

you would KNOW with certainty the gender, race, ethnicities of all the countless hundress of thousands who have distinguished themselves in combat through the decades--both in this country and throughout Israel, Netherlands, or anywhere else in the world?!!!!!!!!

Can we all say hyperbole?! Jeez.....

Don't want women in combat? Fine. I'm sure you can justify your viewpoint without such a ludicrous pronouncement...

[noiretextatique]

12. indeed...

"i've never heard of it, so it must be true" is not exactly what i'd call a logical statement.

this seems closer to what the poster meant: "i don't know of it, and if i did, i probably wouldn't believe it...so it must be true."

[Cleita]

16. I guess you never heard of Tomoe Gozen.

Tomoe Gozen

Woman warrior

Tomoe Gozen provides one of the few examples of a true woman warrior in early to early modern Japanese history. While countless other women were at times forced to take up arms (in defense of their castle, for example), Tomoe seems to have been a consumate warrior.

She was married to Kiso (Minamoto) Yoshinaka (though the Heike Monogatari describes her as a female attendant), who rose against the Taira and in 1184 took Kyoto after winning the Battle of Kurikawa. With the Taira forced into the Western Provinces, Yoshinaka began insinuating that it was he should carry the mantle of leadership of the Minamoto - a suggestion that prompted an attack by Minamoto Yoritomo. Yoshinaka - and Tomoe - faced the Yoritomo's warriors at Awazu, a desperate fight in which Tomoe took a least one head.

The Heike Monogatari says this of Tomoe…

"…Tomoe was especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swordswoman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a might bow; and she preformed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors."
(Tale of the Heike, McCullough, pg. 291)

The HM goes on to say that Tomoe was one of the last five of the Kiso standing at the tail end of the Battle of Awazu, and that Yoshinaka, knowing that death was near, urged her to flee. Though reluctant, she rushed a Minamoto warrior named Onda no Hachiro Moroshige, cut his head off, and then fled for the eastern provinces.

Some have written that Tomoe in fact died in battle with her husband, while others assert that she survived and became a nun.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/women.html

[question everything]

31. Fascinating story. But these battles were among people of the same

culture and background, I take?

If we were in a war with a European country it would not matter. But the reality is that we did sent troops to countries with a culture different from ours and we are not going to force them to change by shoving our open society on them. There are too many issues as it is.

When we ask "why do they hate us" - one of the answers is that, at least in deeply religious countries like Iran and the Gulf states - they are angry that our movies and our songs and Brittany Speak-wannabes spread in their societies. These are facts and I don't see why we need to inflame them more that what we are dealing with.

Sure, it would be nice if we were not there but if we are, why make it even worse this way?

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

33. History Repeating itself?

So you're saying they hate us for much the same reason the Jewish minority hated the Romans?

[question everything]

34. Not exactly

The Romans were the rulers of ancient Palestine, were present there and forced the Jews to worship the Roman gods.

Our MTV and CDs and movies and magazines are not forced on any society - I hope - but they do get there and are an affront to devout Muslims.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

35. You mean...

WE DONT have to watch MTV & CDs & listen to Howard Stern WITHOUT Clear Channel getting involved?? <wink>

[Cleita]

45. Actually the Samurai culture like the Muslim culture kept

women in a subservient role as well, so a woman warrior had to earn her stripes so to speak. There is also a facinating tidbit about one of Mohammad's wives being a warrior. I haven't been able to dig up anything concrete as yet. If I find something I will post it sometime if we again speak of women in the military.

[oldcoot]

20. Historical examples

Technically, women are not allowed to serve in combat roles in the United States or Israel (even though Israel does draft women) so it is really difficult for women to distinguish themselves in roles that they are not allowed to perform. However, there are many historical examples of women distinguishing themselves in combat roles that prove women are capable fighters.

During World War II, women in the Soviet military frequently distinguished themselves in combat. For example, women combat pilots as well as snippers earned medals during this war. Women also participated in resistance efforts in Yugoslavia.

Vietnamese women have even a longer history of fighting in combat roles. From the Trung sisters, who lead a national uprising against the Chinese in 40 C.E. (http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Vietnam+and+Trung+and+sisters&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dfa210c0f80c9d7b5%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3DVietnam%2Band%2BTrung%2Band%2Bsisters%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.womeninworldhistory.com%252Fheroine10.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPIndex%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=3A%2F%2Fwww.womeninworldhistory.com%2Fheroine10.html) to those women who fight against the French and the Americans, Vietnamese women proved to be formidable opponents(Read Sandra C. Taylor's (Vietnamese Women at War).

[ElectroPrincess]

39. You must NOT know your Military History

Pscot,

You must not have studied your military history. The women nurses in WWII and Vietnam have served bravely.

Also specifically within THIS (Iraqi) conflict a number of WOMEN MP soldiers have earned Bronze Stars for valor.

Do a Goggle search on Women MPs in Iraq and you will glean dozens of articles. The women who do have the guts and temperament to serve in the military should NOT be held back in any way. And the vast majority of us have prov-en ourselves physically and mentally capable of appropriate behaviors.

It saddens me that you would make such a blatantly prejudiced statement. Read up and wake up!

[dpt223]

47. Do you realize how ignorant your post sounds?

nt

[Eye and Monkey]

13. Perhaps it's time we rethink - and MOVE WOMEN TO THE TOP.

Lots of women, to the top brass. Yes, I think that might work.

[hlthe2b]

18. Agree.... As long as mid-level women officers report to

a majority "good ole boy" male network, absent of representative women in the 3 and 4 star general positions, this is going to be an issue. Women, in their minority, lower rank positions, are readily vulnerable to manipulation and exploitation by their senior officers and as we are seeing by some on both sides of the political spectrum, subject to scapegoating for all that goes wrong. (I don't know that England and the other two women are scapegoats. Perhaps they are equally guilty of spontaneous abhorrent action as the men. My comments go to the larger issue of women's role in the military). We can also say the same for the absent of equal representation of women in congress and the senate....

Look at the JCS, Rumsfeld and his civilian Pentagon ilck-- does anyone really think as they sit around and chew the "good ole boy fat," that they really listen to any woman in the lower ranks? Did anyone note his (Rumsfeld) condescension when responding to the questions of women in the Senate and House Hearings?


Only when we have more equal representation of highly qualified competent women in these positions, will the true positive influence of women in the military be able to be demonstrated, IMO. Critical mass is as important as high position when it comes to influencing change.

[AlCzervik]

15. Maybe we should have skipped

the whole going to war with Iraq. Now because if this ridiculous quagmire we're in woman are actually taking the blame, i guess the republicans have run out of ways to blame Clinton.

[TexasMexican]

21. So you are saying...

that we should change our military so that it wont offend Muslims from the Middle-East?

Well why dont we just go ahead and make all our women wear veils too. :eyes:

Meh we need more women in the military and more sex. Just give everyone more condoms and birth control.

[Corgigal]

23. Actually

that was happening in Saudi until a USAF Office fought it out with her superiors.

I think the women in the torture photo's are a guilty as Janet Reno was when the attack on the Waco compound occurred. Of course the men in the FBI picked a time when she was doing a briefing for hours to pick that exact time to roll out the tanks. The problem with the women in this whole situation is that they trust the men and thought they were on the same team. As a female veteran who I guess didn't perform honorably under combat conditions, I never was never that damn stupid. I knew very well how they loved you working with them but secretly hated you because they feel you have belittled their job title. Fuck'em.

[Rowdyboy]

22. No, we should not change our societal values about equality

to put us in agreement with people who hold a medieval attitude about women.

Women aren't the problem. Military intelligence's misuse of them to humiliate and blackmail prisoners is the problem. That is correctable.

[Cleita]

24. I so agree. This is where the real problem is.

eom

[Generator]

26. I feel the same way about this as gays in the military

Sure they should be welcomed, but really, aren't we (women & gays) better than that?

[neverborn]

30. No.

Women are not weaker than men. End of story.

[LeahMira]

36. How about no men either?

Seriously... how about we be forced to settle differences through diplomacy and not wars.


Men and women will be attracted to each other and will have sex when given the chance.

I'm afraid frustrated individuals are even worse.

[bloom]

53. That is the solution I favor....n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

37. As a Proud Woman Veteran

I served on active duty for four years. Further I was one of the first groups of women allowed to attend the first Infantry School: US Army Airborne School, Fort Benning, GA.

Let me make myself clear: It goes to character - Period. I could outperform a number of men on the PT test and was attractive. However, the way I walked and conducted myself as a junior officer set the tone of professionalism. On the occasions where a troop or senior officer would start to flirt with me, I would adjust my tone of voice and expression to convey the fact that "it ain't gonna happen."

The vast majority of women MPs have served their country proud in combat and many have earned purple hearts and bronze stars for bravery.

If you limit women's service just because of gender that is WRONG ... that is discrimination. My brother who served in the 101st Airborne Corps told me point blank, one could care less about sex in the heat of combat.

We're all part of the Professional Military. The Canadians allow gays in their ranks. It's not time to convey prejudice toward women (go back in time) NOW. Let's not begin the steps that will lead to further segregation of any class of humanity.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[ibegurpard]

40. Maybe it's time to rethink the management

specifically, the commander-in-chief.

[w4rma]

44. I disagree. (nt)

[ieoeja]

48. One Question

Now we hear that she is pregnant, and that among the photos were some of her having sex with others in what some describe as close to porno.


Only "close" to porn? So these were what then? Art?