So to most, US Torture are "frat pranks" and Berg's murder is "barbaric?"

[Selwynn]

I LOATHE both the horrible act we which we saw publicly yesterday, and the long pattern to torturous abuse committed by US forces on the ground. I loathe them both. One is not better or worse than the other. They are despicable actions and all of those involved, complicit or passively enabling such actions should be brought to justice - on both sides. Those who ordered such execution should be hunted down. Those who ordered US torture should be fired, prosecuted and jailed. We should d make it clear that we will not give in to terrorism, and we should also make it clear that terror at the hands of our own people will not be tolerated. Those in charge would let this happen under their noses should be gone. We should send a clear signal that we WILL seek to maintain moral high ground (I know a lot of people familiar with our history are laughing cynically at that, but I'm just saying, its what we should do).

What makes me angry is how the right is trying to BURY the story of US torture by blanketing the media with this story, and by ridiculing anyone who continues to mention our own international human rights crimes as an evil heartless person who cares more about terrorists than US citizens. The truth is I care more about JUSTICE than I do about either terrorists or US citizens. What the those people did to berg was unspeakably unjust. And what the US Army has systematically and repeatedly been doing to Iraqis is also unspeakably unjust. Whatever distinction should be made between these "sub-human" terrorists and our military presence is a semantic one at best.

During this Iraqi war our military has functioned as a terrorist organization - just better equipped, better financed and with the backing of the most powerful government in the history of the world. We invaded a country based on lies, utterly demolished it from the ground up, killed tens of thousands of people who didn't deserve to die, stole that companies resources, and now we see, tortured its people. We created TERROR. And we did so without the support of the international community, acting alone as a Rogue State. In fact wee are the worlds biggest and most dangerous Rogue State, there's just no way of getting around that fact. Our foreign policy is nothing short of criminal.

In being scathingly critical of our own actions, I am not somehow justifying or excusing the actions of other terrorists. Far from it. But you'll forgive me if our own examples of terror and torture hit me even harder - you see, as much as I hate what they do, I EXPECTED this kind of behavior from terrorists. Although I thought I was as realistic as I could be about the state of our country, I must confess I did not expect for US TO BE DOING THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS. And I'm sorry, but the people who try to make semantic distinctions between whose terror is the worst kind of terror disgust me. (Oh, well had we may have anally raped a boy, beat prisoners half to death, sexually assaulted and humiliated Iraqis, drug prisoners around on a leash naked and screaming while dogs attacked them, but at least we're not Saddam!) At some level, torture just becomes torture, and comparisons of which is the better torture or worse torture just don't apply.

What the US has done is horrific and unspeakable. And I'm sorry if it seems like many people place more emphasis on US torture than on terrorists killing a US citizen. But the cold hard fact is, that's what terrorists do, and according to American ideology, we would never, ever, EVER, do anything like that. Now, most of us know that has never been the truth, but still, I have not seen it brought to public light so shockingly in all my young years.

I grieve for the family of Berg. I cried yesterday over that tragedy. But I also ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO TURN MY ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE UNSPEAKABLE BRUTALITY AND INHUMANITY COMMITTED BY OUR SOLDIERS IN IRAQ. I refuse to stop demanding accountability ALL THE WAY UP THE so-called chain of command! This scandal to me is far more brutal and serous than Watergate, than Iran-contra, than Clinton's penis. And I will not shut up about it until there is some kind of JUSTICE.

[Don_G]

1. Just To The RW Pundits

What CENTCOM hasn't considered is that Rush and Hannity is broadcast in the Iraqi theatre in its entireity and it's unreasonable to expect the Iraqi people don't listen to their radios.

They're getting a distorted view of the US and it's just fueling their resolve to fight and kill.

I wonder how many deaths Limpballz is responsible for because of this?

[candy]

4. Where is liberal radio/TV?

The Iraqis are getting the views of roughly 1/2 of the US population.Aren't there any liberal stations broadcasting over there?

[Don_G]

22. None

The current US administration/Halliburton controls the media as much as possible...plus Halliburton has suspended Internet access "for the troops" for 90 days.

[Spoon]

12. The anal rape accusation is hearsay at this point,

Also, I find it revolting that you would equate a slow beheading and humiliation.

Edit:
Msg restored

[redqueen]

15. "humiliation"

Are you seriously telling us that you don't think that the US troops and hired mercenaries involved in this scandal are guilty of anything worse than 'humiliation'?

[Spoon]

17. Due process.

It's one of our greatest attributes.

[redqueen]

18. Due process only determines guilt

So you're admitting now that a crime was committed, and not just 'humiliation'?

[Spoon]

21. Of course a crime was committed.

When have I ever said otherwise?

[redqueen]

25. AFAIK humiliation is not a crime

Torture and rape, on the other hand...

[dpibel]

43. Nothing to see here

You may not have noticed that Selwynn's post was not limited to the torture at Abu Ghraib.

So how do you feel about 10,000 or so civilians getting killed--including some getting their heads blown off? Is it legitimate to compare that to slow beheading? Better because it's fast? Better because it's the accidental side effect of bombing areas where civilians are foolish enough to be?

If you'd like to trot out, "But they did this on purpose! The US only kills civilians by accident!" I'd like to ask you this: Is there ever a point where collateral damage becomes something other than accidental? If I run over one pedestrian, it's pretty easy to see it as an accident. If I run over 20, you might begin to wonder just how accidental it is. Ten thousand is a hell of a lot of people to kill by accident.

Incidentally: There are stories out of Fallujah of US snipers killing unarmed women, children, and men; there are stories of US snipers firing into ambulances. How does that stack up in your moral calculus?

[historian]

2. bravo to you

The iraqis at least have the honesty and integrity to stand up and claim that there acts are theirs and are done for a specific cause, however horrific that might be.
Here we indulge in tired lame excuses such as "he was such a good child and was ruined by video games" or "he didnt believe in jesus" etc... you see the trend.
So when it comes down to the root cause of things we have not only lost the moral ground on which to stand becuase of the torture scenes, but also any claims to integrity and honesty.

[historian]

3. bravo to you

The iraqis at least have the honesty and integrity to stand up and claim that there acts are theirs and are done for a specific cause, however horrific that might be.
Here we indulge in tired lame excuses such as "he was such a good child and was ruined by video games" or "he didnt believe in jesus" etc... you see the trend.
So when it comes down to the root cause of things we have not only lost the moral ground on which to stand becuase of the torture scenes, but also any claims to integrity and honesty.

[candy]

6. Huh?If you believe in the cause atrocities are okay?

Am I missing something here?

[historian]

8. no not at all

I am saying that we interpret our own atrocities as being a mere blip while others who commit the same atrocities are savages. We are all savages as long as we indulge in war and aggression.

[ArkDem]

35. We heard ya the first time.........

.

[Selwynn]

40. It was a lag post, dork.

[ArkDem]

53. Help, I'm being repressed...

.

[bloom]

5. I find myself to be horrified as well

by what MY country is doing.

It's like wanting to stop a train going 50 miles an hour. No make that 100,000 trains.

Maybe if enough people lied down in front of all of them - they would eventually stop.

Some hope, huh. :shrug:

[chelsea0011]

7. There seems to be an ignoring of rapes and murders

Berg in all it's disgusting inhumanity was out there for all to see. We still don't know exactly what Americans did to Iraqi prisoners. But there seems to be an effort for Repubs to diminish it in the face of Berg's ordeal. It is though the pictures of beaten, dead prisoners and stories of rape are not to be believed or worse, ignored. The story will only get worse about American abuse, me thinks.

[IrateCitizen]

9. Well said, Selwynn

When I found out about the torture in Abu Ghraib, and read MG Taguba's report, I felt angry and disappointed.

When I heard about Berg's execution in graphic detail, I felt sick to my stomach. I still do when I think about it.

But throughout it all, I feel both angry and saddened at the forces of violence we have helped to unleash. I, too, EXPECT such barbarity from the radical elements in Iraq who would seize on this moment to try and advance their twisted agenda. I don't expect such barbarity, up close, from my own country. It's bad enough that we've turned toward committing sanitized genocide by dropping bombs from tens of thousands of feet in the air. Now that this dehumanization and brutality has morphed into an up-close affair, I feel even more angry.

God help us all....

[historian]

10. well said

[CityZen-X]

14. Shock & Awe

let us not forget maimed, decapitated, killed, many an Innocent Iraqi, man , woman, and child. And still to this day children are being targeted, crippled, and killed, by are very own soldiers.
For one, I am convinced that the killers of Berg are contracted Mercs. These Dogs of Wars have been allowed into this theater to carry out such demonic deeds! Just imagine what these demons have done to the Iraqi citizens.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. The US never bothered to try & understand the middle east

If they had, they probably would stay away from it or tried to work along with the culture. Instead our policy has been a continuation of stupid heavy handed imperial domination tried without any success by Great Britain in the past. The amount of brute force that is applied will result in a proportional amount of grief to us.

[opihimoimoi]

16. Because Bush has not traveled much prior to taking office,

he has demonstrated very little understanding of differing cultures. Worse, he is a non reader, allowing him to repeat mistakes clearly described in HISTORY. This poor thing of a supposed leader is our dilemma.... how to replace him before he can do more damage.

Unfortunately, our system works with 4 year cycles and we must endure till Nov this year.

He is such a dolt and he doesn't even know it.

[spanone]

13. Tell that to the guy with electric wires on his fingers.

[Selwynn]

33. What does that even mean?

[Webster Green]

19. It went from "torture" to "abuse", and now its "softening up".....

"Softening up". The words seem pretty non-threatening. The wing-nuts frame everything to their advantage.

[meow2u3]

20. PNAC/Neocon double standards at work

It's not what's done; it's who does it.

If "our kids" torture and murder "their guys", they're only "letting off steam"; but if "their guys" decapitate one of "our guys", it's an unforgivable, barbarous act. Like I said--double standards.

[Karenina]

23. Same way American jurisprudence works.

[TexasMexican]

24. IMO this murder is worse than "our torture."

I guess in general its possible for torture to be far worse than being murdered.

I'm sure throughout history there have been people who were so badly tortured that they prayed for death.

That being said if the choice was between having my throught slit and my head cut off by a knife and being forced to get naked and lay on top of a pile of other naked men, when i would prefer being in a pile of naked men.

[redqueen]

26. Why do so many people seem to think that they've seen all there is to see?

If one understands there is much that is being kept under wraps, by Rumsfeld's own admission things much worse than what we already know about, why go on pretending that the naked pyramid pile is all there is to it?

[TexasMexican]

28. okay....

taking a dick up the ass is still probably better than having your head sawed off by a knife.

Now if the government is removing people's genitals and turning them into nullos and removing thier fingernails and sticking thier hands into salt water then it becomes a bit more harder to decide.

Yeah we do fucked up things but we dont cut an innocent person's head off with a pocket knife.

[buddhamama]

31. our soldiers have killed prisoners

how exactly, well, we'll have to wait and see. the deaths are being investigated.

[buddhamama]

29. that is you

fortunately, you're not a prisoner nor are you being tortured.
you're not living through the pyschological effects of what
has been done to you. and, considering that it has been reported
that the majority of the prisoners are innocent of any wrong doing...truly vile.


throughout history people have also died from being so badly tortured.

torture of prisoners and, the murder of Nick Berg are wrong.

[Selwynn]

34. Rape, beatings, sodomization, being dragged through prison by a leash

It wasn't just men "laying on top of each other" and how dare you sir, to act as though it was.

I'd also like to refer you to this paragraph of my original post which I guess you ignored:

"And I'm sorry, but the people who try to make semantic distinctions between whose terror is the worst kind of terror disgust me. (Oh, well had we may have anally raped a boy, beat prisoners half to death, sexually assaulted and humiliated Iraqis, drug prisoners around on a leash naked and screaming while dogs attacked them, but at least we're not Saddam!) At some level, torture just becomes torture, and comparisons of which is the better torture or worse torture just don't apply."

So I say again, at some level, torture is just torture, and there is no moral distinction between which kind of torture is better than which other. IT'S TORTURE. There is no torture that is morally superior to any other torture. While you might prefer a torture that you can live through to a kind of torture you can't live through (and that would be a debatable choice for some) still doesn't change the fact that it is ALL morally REPREHENSIBLE, CRIMINAL TORTURE. Period.

[TexasMexican]

46. "There is no torture that is morally superior to any other torture."

I disagree.

Sleep deprivation and humiliation are forms of torture that I think are "morally superior" than mutilating someone or causing physical pain.

[Selwynn]

49. I disagree.

Torture is torture.

It is all wrong.

[ArkDem]

54. What if they were forced to read one of Ann Coulter's books?

.

[cheezus]

27. to be fair, frat initiation doen't involve head sawing off

I'm utterly disgusted by all the violence that has been happening in Iraq.

However, while US frats still use similar naked homoesque humiliation is hazing (which is wrong and has been getting better, but still must stop), they don't saw people's heads off.

America needs to quit nit picking about what's happening and realize that ALL of this is very, very WRONG

[mzmolly]

30. Nor does it involve letting dogs chew a mans flesh, or shooting people

beating 14 year old children etc..

I agree with you and the op that all these actions are horrid.

It's not a matter of who's actions are *wronger*...

[Selwynn]

36. They don't use rape, beatings of prisoners, attack dogs...

..it also doesn't kill their initiates like our soldiers have done to prisoners(currently under investiation) nor does it strip a prisoner naked, drag him around by the neck via rope through the prison while sicking dogs on him as they bite at his extremities.

So, if you think we should quit nit picking and realize that it is all very wrong then don't fucking post a sentence that basically tries to argue that US torture is similar to "frat pranks" and terriroist torture is "real." Damn you for even coming anywhere close to implying that.

[Delano]

32. No.

"One is not better or worse than the other. "

No. No. No.

I could deal with the humiliation of being in a "butt pyramid" MUCH better than I could with being beheaded. The two acts are in totally different leagues of evil and cruelty. You lost me the minute you tried to equate them.

Goodbye.

[BigDaddyLove]

37. Absolutely..............

It is utterly astounding that anyone would even attempt to equate the two....though I can't say that I didn't expect someone to do so sooner or later.

Unfrickenbelievable.

[Delano]

42. Thank You!

Damn this type of reaction is frustrating!

Not only do I think murder is worse than torture, but guess what? I am MORE CONCERNED for the welfare of our people over there than I am for the welfare of the Iraqis.

(Waiting for all the cries of "Jingo!" "Racist!" "Freeper!")

[Ms. Clio]

50. Can't say those things because it would be a "personal attack"

But that statement just says everything I need to know about you.

Plonk.

[Yupster]

52. Agree Big Daddy

If given the chice of some woman leading me around with a leash, or some guy sawing my head off with a knife, I can't picture myself saying "six of one, half a dozen of the other."

[Selwynn]

39. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST IT WAS NOT JUST FUCKING NUDE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the five BILLIONTH time... we are not talking about US soldiers lining up some prisoners for some nude photos. We are talking about rape of prisoners - DOCUMENTED. We are talking about shoving lightbulbs and fucking whatever into the asses of prisoners, we are talking about prisoners being beaten and dragged through prisoners while attacked by dogs, we are talking about children - a sixteen yeal old boy - being brutalized, raped, and humiliated.

Toruture is toruture.

But saying "this is no were near as bad as THIS" you are condoning the action saying, oh its not so bad."

[Delano]

41. NO! DAMMIT!

I'm not condoning a damn thing, and you're being dishonest to suggest that.

The fact is I would much rather survive a rape or bamboo under my nails than have my head CHOPPED OFF. Call me crazy. I like to be alive.

Even rape and abuse/torture does not compare to that grisly muder.

[dpibel]

44. How's murder work into that?

We've already seen pics of a dead man wrapped in cellophane. Lindsey Graham, not noted for his bleeding-heart liberalism, seems to think something went on at Abu Ghraib that he characterized as murder.

Whaddaya think coach: Being beaten to death is better than having your head cut off? Better to be killed by Americans than savage foreigners? How's that work?

[Selwynn]

48. Who gives a damn what you'd "rather survive"

It is ALL torture. It is all unspeakably evil. It is all indescribably wrong. How dare anyone even utter statements like "well, at least its not this." The fact that the very reality that the US has tortured people in Iraq, not with naked fucking photos alone like the torture apologists like to point out, but with rape, beatings, and sadistic excruciating methods, should be enough to bring every American to OUTRAGE. Not rationalization. Not COMPARISON. Not equivocation. Not Justification. Not excuse making. Not sidestepping. We should be FURIOUS.

You seem to think that its enough that "at least we didn't do THAT" as though somehow that makes it OK. But what you must understand is that its not enough to be slightly "better" than other terrorists. We must be righteous, stand for justice, and represent the ideals that we pay so much fucking lip service to and betray DAILY. That's why we should be furious at our own actions - because we aren't just supposed to be kinder, gentler, torturers. We are supposed to be right.

Our US actions were unspeakably indescribably criminally wrong. To make any comparison to any other unspeakably wrong act and get into a pissing context over who has the most brutal torture is ridiculous and disgusting. The statement "well at least it wasn't x" is a fucking pathetic statement. It is made by people who cowardly to stand up and take responsibly for the unspeakable evil done by our government, in the name of this country. So the cowards find every way to rationalize it away. They point to everyone else's horror and act like somehow that makes our own horror less significant. They are wrong.

Oh and by the way, given the choice between being having MY head cut of and being beaten, raped, tortured and annihilated - violated in every conceivable sense of the term, have my person hood destroyed, by sense of self broken, left to despair over days, weeks and months, I'd rather be dead.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

47. Didn't someone report that the pictures

showed US soldiers beating a prisoner to pulp?

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[xchrom]

45. the torture and killing of innocents

is as brutal and inhuman as sawing anybody' head off.
i would suggest that taking a look at our history with african americans if anyone here actually things americans have done anything as cruel as saw some one's head off.
there are plenty on our own soil who will testify as to the brutality of americans.

[ibegurpard]

51. Excellent post!

eom

[Q]

55. Some will never 'get it'...

...and I'm shocked that some of the posts here are posted by so-called 'democrats'.

- The escalation of violence was inevitable. The Bushies began with lying about the need to attack Iraq. Then they used 'shock and awe' that led to the death of thousands of innocents and the very infrastructure of Iraq. They swept people from the streets and labeled every one of them as 'terrorists' deserving of torture and inhumane treatment. It didn't matter to the Bush* government whether they were really terrorists or just another brown person.

- To make things worse...thousands more innocents were killed for the 'crime' of getting in the way of American bombs and bullets. Their bodies weren't even counted by their occupiers...as if it wasn't worth the effort. Bombs were dropped on residential areas in failed efforts to get terrorist targets...resulting in more deaths of innocent bystanders.

- And then there was the torture and killings in the name of 'getting information' on others that may or may not be terrorists. This mindset was summed up by Inhofe this morning:

"These 'detainees' have information we need and we should stop worrying about how they're treated"- James Inhofe on MSNBC

- What kind of FOOL would think Bush* could bring 'democracy' to those he considers as subhuman?

[ArkDem]

56. Yes, it's very serous...

.