Why is an American Jew in Baghdad in the middle of a war ??

[kentuck]

I sympathize with the Berg family but I cannot understand how or why this person would be in Iraq?? Did he need money so bad that he would risk his life for it? Surely he knew his life was at risk, did he not? When they were capturing Americans and the violence was so widespread, why would anyone volunteer to go there to check radio antennaes?

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but this does not add up for me. The Arabs do not love Jews. Surely Mr Berg would have known that. With the hatred and tensions in the warzone of Iraq, that would be the last place on earth that an American Jew would want to be, would it not? Could someone explain this to me? Why was he there?

[outinforce]

1. What Are You Suggesting???

Are you suggesting that Jewish people should not go to Baghdad?

Apparently, Mr. Berg did want to go to Iraq.

YOu got a problem with that?

[the_real_38]

re: Are you suggesting that Jewish people should not go to Baghdad?`

It's probably not the best idea under those circumstances - he could at least have used a fake name. Worked for Robert Zimmerman and Allen Konigsberg.

[kentuck]

4. I'm suggesting it doesn't seem like the most intelligent thing to do...

i don't have a problem with that? Are you Jewish? Would you go to Baghdad alone?

[outinforce]

10. Intelligent or Not

I do hope that you are not suggesting that because Mr. Berg did not behave in a manner in which you would consider "intelligent", that he somehow deserved having his head sawed off while he was still alive and breathing (or at least gasping for air).

Mr. Berg is, I think, the victim here.

The real question, it just seems to me, is how anyone could be so vile and so violent and so malevolent AND so motivated (apparently) by hatred for people of a particular religion to saw another person's head off. While the person is still alive.

And, no, I am not Jewish.

[kentuck]

17. Oh get real !

Of course he is a victim. It doesn't matter if he was Polish or Swedish or Jewish. Would you be as naive to think something like that could not happen to you? It probably did not help his situation that he was Jewish? Perhaps he would have been butchered, no matter what his nationality?

[outinforce]

23. Your Earlier Question to Me

You asked me earlier,

"Would you go to Baghdad alone"?

No. I probably would not.

But if I do, and if I get murdered by a group of thugs, was it my fault?

To me, that is not too much different from suggesting that a Black kid who happens to come into the "wrong" neighborhood -- a place where some say he does not "belong" -- had it coming to him if he gets killed.

Berg was the victim here.

That's all I'm saying.

And I think I'm being quite "real", thanks just the same.

[kentuck]

31. Your analogy is weak...

If a black kid goes to Baghdad alone and is killed by terrorists, then that would be a more appropriate analogy.

[outinforce]

35. Fair Enough

If you want to go down that road, OK.

I would suggest that if ANY kid -- Black, White, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or even Moslem -- wants to go to Baghdad alone, you might want to ask why.

You, however, asked specifically about a Jew.

You questioned, I think, the intelligence of a Jewish person going to Baghdad.

And I inferred (perhaps incorrectly) that you were also saying that Mr. Berg somehow brought his murder (the sawing of his head from his body while he was alive) upon himself because he failed to act intelligently.

[kentuck]

41. I do not think it woud be "intelligent" for any of the above...

to go into a war zone alone. However, with eyes wide open and reality staring straight at you, the odds are it would be even more dangerous if you were Jewish...sad, but the reality of the moment. But, when Bush "democratizes" the Middle East, then Israel and all her supporters can travel in peace anywhere they wish in the world.

[outinforce]

48. You Do Realize, Of Course,

that not all Jewish people are supporters of Israel?

Are you suggesting that Berg, because he was Jewish, supported Israel, and that he therefore brought his own demise upon himself?

I'm confused here.

Could you re-state the point you were trying to make about Berg, his being Jewish, and his being in Baghdad again?

I think it is that he shouldn't have been there, and because he was, he got himself killed.

I'm sorry if that isn't a correct statement of the point you were trying to make.

Perahps you could say it for me in your own words?

[kentuck]

55. I think you need to read a few more posts...

You are being naive, in my opinion.

(on edit)
Also, I think your insinuations are more "racist' in tone by accusation than anything anyone else has posted.

[outinforce]

59. Does That Mean

"No"?

You will not re-state, in your own words, the point you were trying to make about Berg and the rest?

Are there specific posts you can direct me to where your point is stated?

[kentuck]

63. Why should I "re-state"..????

I think I stated rather clearly?? I don't know what else I could say to get my point across. So yes, the answer is no.

[formernaderite]

91. Of course the fact he's jewish makes a difference in the middle east....

...there's nothing even vaguely racist in suggesting that. "If" his captors realized he was jewish, his personally supporting or not supporting Israel would not have made an ounce of difference. Like it or not, there are alot of people in the middle east who would prefer to see jews in general, off the face of the earth.
Idiocy like this is probably why I've been an atheist for some time.
Would any American 20 something year old been in danger over there? Of course...but the fact his family is jewish made him a target for the heinous retribution such as we saw.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. I find your comments to be offensive

I am offended by the fact that you are commenting not on what the other poster said, but on what you "hope he didn't mean".

I hope you are not suggesting the other poster somehow deserved having his head sawed off while he was still alive and breathing (or at least gasping for air).


But since you didn't say that it would be pretty moronic for me to imply that, wouldn't it?

[outinforce]

25. Sorry

Sorry you found my comments to be offensive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. lol what a phony self-serving non-apology.

You're not sorry for your comment, you're sorry for my reaction? LOL


PS- I don't want you to apologize, you didn't say anything you should apologize for, you just made a post that lacked insight and was not an honest comment on the other poster's point. No reason to be sorry.

[outinforce]

40. Will This Do?

Sorry that my comments were offensive.

or

Sorry that my commments offended you.

or

Please accept my most heartfelt apologies for offending you.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

57. I'm Sorry?

Under the circumstances -- your suggestion that there is nothing for me to apologize for -- I am somewhat at a loss for words (a rare event for me here on DU, as others will tell you.)

Nonetheless, I do feel (call me silly if you want) that I have a need to apologize.

First, because in the first post you addressed to me your headline was, "I find your comments to be offensive".

Now Mrs. Force (my mother -- she named me "outin") always told me that it was a good thing to apologize when I unintentionally caused someone else offense. So that is what I did. I'm sorry (oops!) that it was not the proper thing to do.

Second, I compounded my first gaffe by apologizing to you for something which you felt did not require an apology. Is it ok for me to say "I'm sorry" for that?

Now. As to your request for intelligent commentary, may I direct you to following posts on this thread: Posts Numbers 1, 10, 23, 35, 48,14, 30, 46, 43, 18, and 38.

I think that there you will find the sort of intelligent, insightful, and well-reasoned commentary you seek.

My apologies, in advance, of those posts do not provide you with the comments your are looking for.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

76. I Have Asked The Poster

who initiated this thread to clarify his points regarding Mr. Berg, the fact that he was a Jew, and the fact that he was in Baghdad.

That poster has declined my request.

You draw your own conclusions regarding whether I made a valid commentary or not.

[kentuck]

77. And I informed you of your naivete...

As if it doesn't matter if he is Jewish or not. It shouldn't make a difference but unfortunately, it does.

[outinforce]

80. And I Asked You

what difference, exactly, it made.

I don't believe I ever received an answer.

I did get some really good advice about entering traffic, though.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. The poster was crystal clear in what he said

but declined to mouth the words you wanted to put in his mouth.

[outinforce]

82. Hold On!

The words I wanted to put in his mouth?!?!?

What in the world are you talking about?!

I have asked -- at least twice -- for the poster to re-state -- in his own words -- the point he is trying to make.

So far, I have received only a suggestion that I read other posts on this thread (without a specific referral to a specific post).

Oh, yes -- I did receive some good advice about entering traffic.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

84. LOL

Your whole argument is not with what the poster said, but with what you "hope he didn't mean".

The poster doesn't need to restate what he already said, but if you want to have a dialogue with someone, you'll need to comment on what they say, not on what you "hope they don't mean".

[outinforce]

85. My Comment

"if you want to have a dialogue with someone, you'll need to comment on what they say, not on what you "hope they don't mean""

You asked.

I shall provide.

Here is what the original poster said in one of his posts: "I do not think it woud be "intelligent" for any of the above...9referring to kids who are white, black, jewish, christian, hindu, or moslem) to go into a war zone alone. However, with eyes wide open and reality staring straight at you, the odds are it would be even more dangerous if you were Jewish...sad, but the reality of the moment.
My comment on this is that the poster is suggesting that Mr. Berg, through his own lack of intelligence (I equate, by the way, a "lack of intelligence" with stupidity), somehow caused, or contributed to his own demise.

My further comment is that such a comment detracts from the fact that Mr. Berg is the victim here -- inasmuch as it makes it seem as thought Berg shared any fault for his onw beheading.

I reject such a notion totally.

I think the more appropriate question to ask is why anyone -- ANYone -- would feel such hatred toward someone like Mr. Berg that they could saw off his head.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

86. We get it - the other poster just won't say what you want him to say.

It can be frustrating, can't it?

[outinforce]

88. I Do Not Want The Other Poster

I do wish that you would refrain from any suggestion that I have some words or sentences that I want the other poster to say.

I would be nice, I think, if he were to clearly articulate his own views, but he, for whatever reason, has chosen not to do so.

I have asked him, quite politely I think, to state his position. And he has said, I believe, that he thinks that Berg was not intelligent in going to Baghdad by himself. Those are, I confess, my words, but I think they accurately reflect what the other poster said, and are NOT an effort by me to put my words in his mouth.

You asked for my comments on what the other poster said.

I provided them to you.

Why do you think that there is something that I want the other poster to say? Just as you asked me to provide you with my comments, I have asked the other poster to provide -- and I have made clear, in his own words -- his position.

I could just as easily, I suppose, suggest that you yourself, because you asked me to articulater my views and comments, were trying to get me to say something you wanted me to say.

But that would be just ridiculous.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. Mind-boggling.

Those are, I confess, my words, but I think they accurately reflect what the other poster said, and are NOT an effort by me to put my words in his mouth.

No comment from me is necessary in the face of such self-contradiction.

It really is frustrating when your debate opponents don't say what you want, I'll admit.

[outinforce]

100. Should The Other Poster

want to post -- in his own words -- a more accurate statement of what he said -- or even of what he intended to say -- he is certainly free, and I would guess quite able to do so.

If he truly feels that my statement of what he said is in any way inaccurate, then it does seem to me that it is up to him to clear up any confusion I might have as to what he said or intended to say.

You refer to "debate opponents".

I'm not quite sure who it is, exactly, that you mean. DO you intend to suggest that I am having a debate?

If you are, then I need to let you know that my own personal definition of "debate" includes a proccess where one person "wins" and another person "loses".

That is not what I am having with anyone on this thread, so please do not try to drag me into such a process.

I am having a discussion -- an honest effort to understand what another person has written.

I have no desire to "win" a dicussion -- the whole idea of "winning" a discussion is ludicrous.

And I will dertainly try, as best I can, to clarify my points of dicsussion when other people demonstrate, through what they post, theat they have misunderstood my postings.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

And, yes, on a completely separate subject, I do agree with you that it is frustrating when a debating opponent doesn't say what someone wants her/him to say.

I'm just not quite sure what that statement has to do with me.

[Cronus Protagonist]

98. Time to hit the "sleepy man" icon

I find it works wonders.

http://w.is.hated.com

[Misinformed01]

56. You don't know if he was alive when his head was cut off or not

I was a paramedic; I think he was dead by the time the captors did that.

I would be really interested in hearing what the medical examiner has to say about this-

That said, I am sorry this happened to this kid....no one deserves to die like that...of any nationality. It's horrible.

[outinforce]

61. I Saw The Video (warning -- may be too graphic for some)

Take my word for it.

He was alive.

His head did not come off as it would have with a guillotine.

They had literally to saw it off.

THAT is precisely what made the video so disturbing.

[Misinformed01]

66. I watched the video too

about 3 times, because it did not look "normal" to me.

Trust me, you don't know if he was dead or not. Arterial blood spurts...his flowed. Take it for what it's worth...and wait for the autopsy results.

Stephanie

[scrotim]

32. Mr. berg absolutely had the right to go wherever he wanted to,

he exercised that right, and unfortunately, now he is dead.

like Pat tillman's brother said so eloquently at his brother's funeral, he is fucking dead.

that is the bottom line, period.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Did anyone say or imply that he didn't?

No.

[scrotim]

42. no. i was restating the obvious. and he is obviously dead, regardless

of his rights.

i think you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. You did state the obvious, yes.

But why?

[daleo]

50. Did he really have a legal right to go there?

Let us leave aside what his religion is. The question I wonder about is, does any American just have the right to enter Iraq now, on spec, to look for a job or a contract? I don't think Iraq is legally part of the U.S. yet, so nobody has a right to enter, purely at their own discretion.

A right would imply that the authorities couldn't keep him out, without some valid legal reason. Somehow, I doubt that is the case.

[Misinformed01]

51. He did NOT want to go to Iraq?

Beg your pardon? Have we both been reading the same DU?

He very much wanted to go to Iraq...so badly that he went on his own.

As far as "blaming the victim," let's get this part straight right now...if he had not bought a ticket, gotten on a plane, got off somewhere near or in Iraq...chances are really good that he would not have been a victim.

Sometimes...just sometimes....we need to get off the "victim mentality" trip: the man was there ON PURPOSE.

I wish he hadn't been; looked like a nice guy to me. I hate it for an idealistic young man, and his whole family.

[formernaderite]

92. Have to agree with you...

...he may have had noble intentions, but this is not a burgeoning frontier yet.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. To get his share of the flowers and hugs, dummy!

[madmax]

3. Why didn't the CIA or the military get him out of the country

after they questioned him? I don't believe it's anything sinister - just another major screw up. If only - he'd be alive today.

[peaches2003]

6. Told him to leave

They are saying today that the US told him to leave, but he hung around and then was captured. I guess he couldn't be forced to go, but it is very strange that supposedly he was there to 'help' the locals and was repairing antennas. There are people who just go to dangerous situations by themselves for reasons not altogether altruisitc, no matter what they say (or in this case what his relatives now say), and this is what can happen.

[outinforce]

14. This Is Not Berg's Fault (edited to remove "Screaming")

Sorry that my headline screams, but it floors me how some folks are suggesting that Mr. Berg was somehow to blame for his plight.

As if he were not the victim here.

The victim of a bunch of thugs -- who may -- MAY -- have been motivated by nothing other than hatred for Jews (it has been known to happen, you know) -- who decided to saw off Berg's head while he was still slive and gasping for air.

THEY are the perpetrators -- not Berg.

on edit: I removed the "screaming" nature of my headline.

[kentuck]

22. Cannot someone ask a question without you SCREAMING ?

It's a fair question and no one is blaming the victim for what happened. He was butchered by a group of animals. But, it is a fair question to ask why was he there?

[outinforce]

30. Why?

What makes that such a legitimate question?

The only thing that comes to my mind is that answering such a question might help to apprehend the people who did this terrible thing.

And by "terrible thing" I mean the sawing of Berg's head off -- not Berg deciding to be in Baghdad.

Just to be clear.

[kentuck]

34. Perhaps you would be happier with just the government version?

Since questions seem to bother you so.

[outinforce]

46. The Questions Do Not Bother Me

THe questions do not bother me.

Not really.

I guess I might ask you what others -- on other threads -- sometimes ask me.

If you have a point to make about Mr. Berg, the fact that he was a Jew, and the US Government, why don't you just make it.

Instead, I think someone could reasonably conclude that you have a problem with a Jew being in Baghdad during this war.

Do you?

[kentuck]

53. I don't have a problem with anyone ...

doing whatever they want to do. We all have to take responsibility for our actions. It doesn't matter if we are Jewish or Hillbilly. But to suggest that it is no different for a Jewish kid from America to be in Baghdad in the middle of a war, alone, and perhaps a kid from Jordan or Syria to be there, is naive to a very high degree. Yes, there is a difference.

[outinforce]

64. Could You Perhaps State

I'm sorry to be so naive here. Really.

But would you mind stating -- in your own words -- what difference it makes whether a kid is from Jordan or Syria and in Baghdad or is a kid from America who happens to be Jewish.

My naivite is clouding me here.

Perhaps you could clear it up for me?

[kentuck]

71. If you have to ask that...

Make sure your mother is holding your hand before you go out into the traffic. You are in danger of hurting yourself. Seriously, I'm not trying to belittle you but your naivete is overwhelming.

[outinforce]

78. Thanks for the Advice

I do appreciate your advice about entering traffic. I would find it difficult to hold onto my mother's hand, though, since the vehicle I drive has manual transmission and therefore requires the use of both of my hands in order to enter traffic. Perhaps I shall ask my mom to send me a tape of her voice so that I can play it in my vehicle as I am entering traffic.

I do hope you understand why I am making these requests.

It is not to be difficult.

I could just as easliy form, based upon what I have read, my own conclusions about what you think the differences are or about any other matter I have asked you about.

Instead, I think I am doing you the honor of actually asking you what you think the differences are.

My own personal experience is that I prefer it when someone asks me -- straight out -- my opinion, rather than jumping to a conclusion I never intended.

[kentuck]

81. Whatever............

:)

[outinforce]

83. Another "No"?

That's OK.

I'll just draw my own conclusions.

See you around.

[scrotim]

33. i think the screaming posts are to intimidate you into NOT asking question

s that are uncomfortable.

i don't think there are EVER too many questions, only too many people afraid to answer or discuss them.

[outinforce]

43. Wrong-O

Thanks for your comments.

Even though I had absolutely no desire to inhibit anyone's asking questions, I do see how my "screaming" headline might have that effect on some timid and shy folks.

So I have edited them to removed the "scream".

[scrotim]

52. why thank you.

your civility is appreciated :)

[outinforce]

65. And

so is yours.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Look I am Jewish and there are rumors the Israeli military is in Iraq

IF that is so this thing will blow across the Arab states like a fireball from an explosion and that concerns me greatly. I know Kentuck and know he isn't a bigot nor anti-semitic and I did not read his comments as though they were saying "We don't serve Jews here." A few years back here in LA a white family got lost and was murdered in a neighborhood known for gang activity...the natural question was "what were they doing there at that time of night?"

The question is not offensive.

[kentuck]

47. Thanks nsma....

We have to be open-minded enough to ask questions. I understand the sensitivities involved when we broach such a subject.

[outinforce]

69. I Am Sorry

Questions such as ""what were they doing there at that time of night?" or "what is a Jew doing in Baghdad" may not be racist questions.

But they do imply that the victims somehow brought their deaths upon themselves.

THAT is what is wrong with those questions.

Berg and the people in LA or anyone else who is killed is the victim.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. I disagree. Of course they are the victims.

But the question is valid.

[ikojo]

93. I am Jewish as well. I do not think questioning why a Jew

would go into an Arab country on fire with hatred of all things American and Jewish in particular as blaming the victim.
It is a valid question. People learn from what others have done and have experienced. If questioning why Mr Berg went to Iraq saves another ambitious Jewish kid from going into the fireball that is Iraq then it is not wasted time.

Americans are targets in the Middle East but a Jew is guaranteed a death sentence. Many in the area see the US and Israel as one and the same, USandIsrael.

[theivoryqueen]

19. His family claims that he was trying like hell to leave Iraq

He had told them he was looking for any way to get out, via any number of countries, but was not having success.

[Tansy_Gold]

20. Some thoughts, though they will probably be ignored

1. Baghdad was the home of a large Jewish population until 25-50 years ago. My earlier post in another thread contained an error in that I thought the Jews of Baghdad had been protected under Saddam Hussein; indeed they were not, and thousands fled his terror. However, the Jews have a nearly 3000 year history in the region, so is it entirely inconceivable that young Mr. Berg wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to see it?

My earlier error was based on memories of news reports, which I have now located, that actually said local Muslims defended the Jewish cultural center in Baghdad from looters after the U.S. invaded.

see http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/13/1050172477659.html

2. The CIA and the FBI and the US Military are not in the business of removing wandering American businessmen from foreign countries if they don't want to leave. While there may be the occasional airlift of civilians a la Saigon, this is usually only in the case of imminent danger and for the members of government agencies and their dependents. Berg chose to go to Iraq for reasons of his own, and one can, I think, safely assume he had no claim on the government to get him out of there. They had not, after all, put him there.

3. Much has been made in other threads about Berg's statement that he was going to leave Iraq via Kuwait, Jordan, or Turkey. Another poster pointed out that there are no functioning civilian airports in Iraq and that the ONLY WAY OUT for itinerant civilians is -- you guessed it -- through Kuwait, Jordan, or Turkey.

I realize none of this fits conveniently with the prevalent conspiracy theories that lay Berg's tragic death at the hands of the CIA, FBI, Black Ops, Karl Rove, and Richard Nixon, but there you have it.

[Raven]

5. He was there to make some money, I think.

Like Hamil who was there to make money. He was a 26 year old kid who probably never dreamed that he could be touched. If I was jewish, I'd think twice before going anywhere in the middle east these days but he was young and probably naive.

[kentuck]

7. I guess ?

:shrug:

[billbuckhead]

8. I wondered about it as well, He was mislead by the misadministratio

into thinking we were actually over there to help the Iraqis and not just to steal their oil. I bet the US government would have done more if he was an oil tech.

[Neecy]

11. who knows?

On the AOL welcome screen, it shows a photo of Berg and the caption says that he was a 'free spirit'. Yeah, when I get 'free spirited' I always go frolicking around in an active war zone!

The whole thing is just *weird*.

[outinforce]

18. And Your Opinion of

ANd your opinion of the young American woman who was bull-dozed -- and killed -- by Israeli bulldozers in the Gaza Strip would be .......

What, exactly?

[Neecy]

28. oh, please

I was mocking the suggestion that being 'free spirited' is a good reason for running around a country in chaos. Of all the things that would motivate someone to do that, I fail to see how freedom of spirit would rank high on the list.

Yes, I blame the murderers, but I also think that going to a country at war, where we're hated, where kidnappings are becoming the norm, without a job in hand to wander the countryside isn't very smart. You may say that's blaming the victim, but I think that people have to take some personal responsibility for their actions. His actions contributed to his death - the murderers caused it. I'm sorry if that offends you.

[outinforce]

70. Nothing You Have Said

Offends me.

I disagree with much of what you have said.

But it does not offend me.

[scrotim]

39. my opinion, unsolicited as it is: she exercised her right to go there

and do what she did, and now she is fucking dead.

bottom line.

it's sad and it sucks and it's some weird combination of wrong, right and destiny; and still, she's just dead.

and her family and friends miss her and she will never raise a family or know old age; she's dead.

[daleo]

60. I believe she was a he.

n/t

[Philostopher]

9. I can't get away from that question either.

And I'm not insinuating anything -- I just can't figure out what possessed the guy. I mean, all the reports seem to insinuate he supported the war -- didn't it occur to him just being there, without an employer or being a member of the military, would make for a difficult situation for the people prosecuting the war he was supporting? If you want them to succeed, I'd think the very last thing you'd be wanting to do is get in the way.

[Loonman]

12. Illegally, no less

He wasn't even supposed to be there.

[jonnyblitz]

13. on tv his dad basically said he was there to help the rebuilding

effort. He supported the Bush invasion and he wanted to contribute. Those exact words were not used but thats basically what his father said. They replayed a clip of an interview with his dad from last week before he knew his son was dead. I know that doesn't explain why he was there and jewish.

[Sequoia]

27. Could he have been an undercover agent?

Maybe not..he was detained although that's now being denied. Even though the FBI went to his parents house we know the FBI doesn't always know what the CIA is up to.

I'd like to hear from the guys who did this thing. They're not speaking so the WH just spins the story even more. Is the USA behind it to take the spotlight off the prision story? I don't trust any news coming out of the WH and this is one strange story.

[riverwalker]

15. he had become extremely religious

in the past year, according to this article.
http://www.forward.com/main/article.php?ref=weiss200405111122
He had been known to "travel throughout" the area, would any of the travels of a religious Jew have taken him to Israel?

[donsu]

24. interesting

being extremely religious is not good

[outinforce]

38. Why?

Why is being extremely religious not good?

Because it will get you killed?

Or because it may cause you to hate people of other religions so much that you would saw the head off of a person whose religious beliefs differ from your own?

I vote for reason #2.

[ikojo]

95. MOST definitely he would have gone through Israel.

Some article I read also mentioned that he had a fringed religious cloth with him. Most likely he had tzitzit with him. It is a piece of clothing worn under a shirt with fringes on four corners. Many but not all orthodox Jews wear this piece of clothing. It is as identifiably Jewish as a yarmulke (kippah).

Also, if he had recently become religious (baal teshuvah) then he may have had a prayer book with him.

[spanone]

16. It's bidness dude, there money in them there wars.

same reason as halliburton. cash.

[gpandas]

74. thanks for the racial slur n/t

[napi21]

26. What do you need to go to Iraq? Passport, visa, ?????

I asked the same thing, sort of.... What would I need to be able to go to Iraq? A Passport for sure, but what else? I know when my son went to Italy, he had to get a visa. Both the US and Italy know who he is, where he is, and why he's there.

In those same circumstances, the US had to know Berg was there, and at least the reason he gave them for his trip. Why was he picked up then? Even if in error, couldn't he have shown them his papers and been released in just a few hours?

I'm not trying to make more of this than is real, but there are lots of unanswered questions.

[bhunt70]

62. from the state dept.

IRAQ - *Passport required. A person seeking entry to Iraq must appear before an authorized officer of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) at a port of entry, border control station, or at any place designated by the Senior Advisor of the Iraqi Ministry of Interior, in coordination with the Interim Minister of the Interior, for examination to determine whether the person may be granted entry to Iraq. Officers issue permits valid for up to 90 days, which may be renewed at CPA offices in Iraq. Permits will eventually be issued by Iraqi missions abroad.

Information provided before June of 2003.

http://travel.state.gov/foreignentryreqs.html#wxyz

[Lars39]

29. In one of the article it said that a company contacted him, or he had

contacted them(?), about having some work for him to do. I want to know the name of the company. The article didn't say. :shrug:

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[Reciprocity]

45. Sorry about this coming from Fox News.

Family, Friends Remember Nick Berg

WEST CHESTER, Pa. — A dedicated weight lifter and amateur comedian, Nick Berg had a desire to help people around the world.

Snip
He even made several trips to Third World countries; in Ghana, he taught villagers how to make bricks, and returned emaciated because he gave away most of his food, his father said

Snip
Berg, who was unmarried, owned a small business that worked with communication equipment like radio towers. He saw his trip to Iraq, his father said, as an adventure — one that fit his ideology as a war supporter and backer of the Bush administration

For more
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119691,00.html

[chookie]

54. Bizarre

What is especially difficult to understand is the timing of his journey to Iraq. A year okay, it would have made better sense -- it was "Mission Accomplished" time, and Joe Albaugh was helping contractors realize the ambition that they could not only Liberate Brown PeopleTM but make a fortune doing so. A year ago was a much more optimistic time.

Very strange that young Mr Berg would go over after the situation began to deteriorate. Not smart, not smart at all.

Maybe he bought into the Bush charade of American Commerce being essential to liberty. Maybe he believed in his own heart that he was so dedicated to rebuilding the Middle East, and had such good intentions towards Muslims and Iraqis, that naively people he encountered there would see that and be joyous that an American Jewish man would be so dedicated about rebuilding their nation, and that his presence there would help heal divisions between Jews and Muslims.

He sounds like the adventurous type. He seems to have understood to at least a degree how to move about in a strange land where you do not understand the language, and judging from his appearance, he seems to have made an effort to fit in by growing a Muslim style beard. He probably found it quite heady to be moving about alone during a war, and trusted his own resources enough that he thought he would survive. Gee -- I *know* people like this -- they always think that somehow they will never personally be in actual grave danger, and that people (like me) who urge them to be extremely cautious and aware are over-reacting.

Iraqi police who encountered him were no doubt bewildered by a young American Jewish guy travelling on his own, sporting a Muslim beard and staying in small hotels used primarily by natives. They probably thought it was impossible for anyone to be so stupid or so idealistic, and so they detained him, thinking he was some sort of collaborator or troublemaker. That's what I would have assumed, as well.

He seems to have been quite stoic about his 2 weeks in an Iraqi prison, and even more strikingly, in the video, where he chats calmly about his identity -- he probably saw himself as some daring adventure guy who was going to come out of this with a lot of incredible stories -- I don't think he had a clue that he was about to be slaughtered.

Still -- a lot about this case does not make sense. For example, although they are using the video for its predictable shock value to get people behind the war against Evil Doers again, our government seems to be turning their back on this guy -- no yellow ribbons and teddy bears and prayer vigils for Mr Berg, but instead public statements that they warned him to leave Iraq, implying that it was his own fault he was captured. Very different from how they have embraced other captives. If I had been in charge there, I would have told this kid in no uncertain terms to leave the country, and would have seen him off in a cab to the airport....

How did he fall into the hands of these murderers? If they had him for a month, why did they not parade him in front of the cameras earlier? They seem to have taken good care of him prior to slaughtering him -- he was clean, shaven, had a nice neat haircut -- very unlike the disheveled appearence of Mr Hammil when he turned up. What gives? And also -- he did not seem afraid -- he seems not to have thought he needed to be afraid.

[Neecy]

68. excellent post

But I guess we aren't supposed to question anything in this increasingly strange story.

...our government seems to be turning their back on this guy -- no yellow ribbons and teddy bears and prayer vigils for Mr Berg, but instead public statements that they warned him to leave Iraq, implying that it was his own fault he was captured. Very different from how they have embraced other captives.

I think this is because our authorities - NOT the Iraqi authorities - share some of the blame for what happened to Berg. He was scheduled to leave the country, was picked up by the Iraqi police in Mosul (this much all of the sources agree with) and if indeed our military kept him in-country for an additional two weeks, without a lawyer, incommunicado, while the FBI grilled him and his family, then this delay kept him from leaving the country safely. This is something our government can't admit to, therefore, he's not like the other hostages. They have to turn on him like they turn on anyone who can cause them political damage.

[outinforce]

73. You Mean...

"our government seems to be turning their back on this guy...implying that it was his own fault he was captured."

You don't say.

Hmmm....

Isn't that a horrible thing for our government to suggest?

[kentuck]

75. Yes, it is strange....

We need to know more about this...

[ikojo]

96. IMHO, the US government could be attempting to

cover itself in case of a wrongful death lawsuit. If they concoct e mails stating they urged Mr Berg to leave they could then say he stayed against Coalition advice.

[goodhue]

58. adventure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a...

<snip>

Berg's father said his son was Jewish and had a fringed religious cloth with him, but he did not think Berg wore the clothing in public. Still, "there's a better chance than not that they knew he was Jewish," Michael Berg said. "If there was any doubt that they were going to kill him that probably clinched it, I'm guessing."

<snip>

His father said Berg returned from his trip to Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food, and the only possessions he had were the clothes on his back.

"That's the kind of passion we're dealing with here," Michael Berg said.

<snip>

He saw his trip to Iraq, his father said, as an adventure, but one that fit into his ideology. He was a war supporter and backed the Bush administration. He helped set up electronics equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000.

After working for a Texas company, Nick Berg went into business for himself in West Chester, near Philadelphia. Berg flew to Iraq on Royal Jordanian airlines, his father said. His father thought that would be the route he would take out of Iraq and even showed up at Kennedy Airport in New York in hopes of picking him up March 30.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/berg.victim.ap/index.html

[SoCalDem]

87. As the mother of a 26 year old man.....

I can tell you this..

At that age, they are still curious, unfettered, brave, bold, and invincible.. Life is one big adventure. Young unmarried men at that age see opportunities that more "grown up" men of the same age do not. I can truly see my son Mike doing something like that.. They are easily lured by the "big score" ...the 100K job opportunity...the altruistic opportunity to help a poor country get back on its feet..

The religion is a "backstory".. He could just as easily been a Methodist.. It would have made no difference.. he was not there to convert anyone..He was on his "young man's adventure"...and it went horribly wrong.. That's all I see here..

If our government held him, and released him into a "bad area", shame on them.. But then a warzone IS a "bad area"..

I think poor Nick's luck just plain ran out.. Adventures do not always end well..:cry:

I weep for his poor parents...we try to rein these young ones in, but they will always end up doing what they want to do, even if there is danger involved.. The danger is an aphrodisiac, in a way.. It makes the stories to be told later, more interesting..and it makes the quest itself more worthwhile..

He would have seen it for what it really was, had he lived through it, but his luck ran out.:(

[Taverner]

89. Everyone stop being so sanctimonious

Having said that, I will answer the quesiton.

Some news reports mention he had in-laws in Mosul.

[ikojo]

97. Yeah, his now deceased sister was married

to an Iraqi. I think he tried to contact his brother-in-law's family.

[msmcghee]

94. Any Iraqi citizen who . .

. . walks down the street in front of his house has a pefect right to do so.

However, if a firefight was raging at the time he decided to take a stroll and he got killed in the crossfire, you could say he was a victim. But you could also say he was stupid.

There's lots of questions about this to be examined.

I think he drank the koolaid. He believed Bush's policy would succeed - and that he'd be in a position to tap into the billions of American taxpayer dollars being spent there to repair the infrastructure.

He was a victim but I also think he was stupid.

[Gimel]

99. American Jews

In the US, Jews are assimilated to a large extent. His identity was American not Jewish. His family wasn't religious, although he apparently had become more religious. I think that the question of his feeling that he would be more vulnerable is a poor one. Everyone says that Jews are equal in the US. Like there is no anti-semitic feelings. Now, an Israeli know that there are people all over the world who are out to kill Jews. An American is insulated from that.

Here was a person who helped others. That was his profession.

"Berg, who had twice gone to Africa to join in projects to help the local population, was in Iraq to develop cellular infrastructures."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/427137.html

He wasn't just there to make trouble.