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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:07 AM
Original message
Told ya so's on the way from the CONS
RW radio today is sickening. Just listened to two moran hosts state that "CBS has blood on its hands" for NOT withholding the pix for a "few weeks" like Rumsfeld asked. They claim that Rumsfeld is now vindicated because the reason they asked CBS to withhold the pix was that it would endanger the lives of Americans. (As IF two weeks would have made a difference.)

They are also trashing papers like the utterly conservative Sun Times for headlines stating that terrorists claim that the beheading was for revenge. They say the media is "carrying water": for terrorists by reporting that the beheading is for revenge. Never mind the "claim" was an actual statement by the terrorists themselves. :eyes:

Other RW talking point re: the beheading--it was not the abuse scandal that drove them to retaliate because "they" (whoever the hell "they" are) were already killing "us" before the scandal.

So let me get this straight...the beheading is NOT revenge because they were already killing us BUT the abuse pix should have been withheld because they would have killed us? Gee, that makes sense. In fucking bizarro universe.

The chasm between fact and logic and whatever passes for reason among the RW has grown beyond repair. God help these sick people.
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Sgt. Peppers Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. What goes around, comes around
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. THey are going to latch on to this
Like a man dying of thirst grabs a cup of water--but i also suspect they are going to drink to fast, giving themselves cramps or worse.

In other words, like you said, this story doesn't really negate the other story (Abu Ghraib prison). And it also underlines the lack of control over there--it's just a mess and a half.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. "CBS has blood on its hands
if we use this logic of blood on their hands. the tortures did not stop until those pictures came out. 4 days before the hearing in front of house and senate. if those pictures hadnt been shown, then cbs had blood on its hands.'

the blood lies...............

but this arguement fals apart at that point.

the repugs havent gotten a thing right in looking at this stuff. we know htis. we bitch about this. so like with little kids, we will tell them why they ar ewrong in this thinking process. use small words talk slow.....
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. OMG. It is just stunning how fucking stupid these people are
They are so busy force-feeding their legions of idiots the latest talking points that they don't even stop to see the obvious holes in their argument.

Of course, that won't matter, because the dittoheads out there sure as shit won't pick up on the errors here. They don't think critically and they can't analyze information. That's why they are conservative in the first place. If they stopped and thought things through, they would realize what stooges they are for the rich...

but anyway...

Back to your point:

Yes, its just insane to say something like that. Its the news media's fault for releasing the photos, because killings like the one depicted in the Berg video were committed as acts of revenge. But then they turn around and say that they weren't committing the decapition out of revenge, because they would have done it anyway???

WTF?


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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. What I find funny is that the host will say something
then a bit later a caller will call in and repeat the idea. It was not an original thought on their part but one gotten from the host.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. It Would Seem That Many
It would seem that many folks (and not just those on RW radio) miss a couple of very basic points:

1. The humiliation of people being held in a prison is wrong. No matter who does it. It should be condemned. No matter who does it.

2. The brutal sawing off of a head of a person is wrong. No matter who does it. It should be condemned. No matter who does it.

Why is it so difficult for so many people to say -- and believe -- both of these things.

Have we, as a culture, sunk so low that we cannot -- as a culture -- acknowledge the veracity of BOTH of those statements?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Sums it up
Exactly my thinking too.
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Luvpurp Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Have you ever noticed how the Cons attack free speech?
IMO right-wing wackos don't really believe in things like free speech, but they know they can't come out and say that without looking like anti-American fascists. So instead they attack ANY AND ALL speech that they disagree with as being irresponsible. It gets more and more sickening every day.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I Have Also Noticed
that the phenomenon you describe is not confined to Cons or to right-wing wackos.
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Can you expound on this?
How is the phenomenon more pervasive as you state? I want to be sure I don't have blinders on.
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I agree wholeheartedly
It is wrong. It's sickening. What's more disturbing is the underlying theme of censorship by the RW. They wanted to withhold the pix which are of their own making to cover their asses only. They don't give a hoot about the abusees, or their wrongdoing--unless they are caught. Then it's a whole different story. These people are sociopathic.
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OhioDem Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Morality and spin.
Of course both of these things are terrible.
Apologists for any of these horrors need to go to their rooms and think about what they have done. They should not be seeking the audience of the public, rather the forgiveness of their god.
I hope everyone reads your post. It is the essence of what is at stake here- our humanity.

There is a reason fanatics of all stripes decry humanism. Valuing every human life is inconvenient to them. Being human requires thinking and reflecting. Being a fanatic just requires blindly following a set of rules regardless of their applicability, and if the outcome is undesirable, they just have to fix blame on those who do not obey. With that mindset, people are capable of unspeakable horrors.
There are situations when we must defend against this sociopathy.
The Iraq War is not one of those.
None of this horror in Iraq was necessary.

Bush has bungled our response to September 11, and caused a chain of misery. Who knows where it will end? America had the sympathy if not the support of most of the world after 9/11. This ill-conceived administration has squandered it for reasons that we can only surmise.
The truth about their motives may never fully be known.
It will take decades to repair the damage done by their greed and incompetence.

All of this is no excuse for trying to minimize the atrocity of Nick Berg being murdered by psychopathic fanatics.
Our responsibility as Americans is to live up to our BEST principles in response to terror. We had the wrong leadership for that, certainly. But the rhetoric of opposition to the White House, in order to be effective, must be well considered, thoughtfully expressed, truthful, and moral. We can learn from the tactics of the neo-cons, but we must stay true to our principles.

I admit I would not be surprised if there turns out to have been some spin put on this murder by the White House. That is what they do. But it does us NO GOOD to speculate about it. Later it will be clear that it wouldn't have happened if our foreign policy had been conducted differently.

Right now, The Berg family is suffering.
Being REACTIONARY about the political significance of these horrors is inhumane and cruel, not to mention counterproductive.
War is always terrible. It brings out the worst in human behavior in ways that persist long after it is over. The best attempts to compartmentalize the brutality of it will never be completely successful. The phrase "war crimes" is, in the literal sense, redundant.

We in the US are taught that our motives in war are clean, and that we are not the aggressors. This war in Iraq is not the first of our military adventures to reveal hypocrisy in our rationale, but it is surely the most dramatic example of it in generations.

If we expect to change the way America works with the rest of the world, we must have new leadership in Washington. We won't get it by letting the neo-cons frame the discussion. They excel at setting up political dynamics to marginalize their opponents. They will turn every gray area and nuance into an opportunity to demonize progressives and secure control of the thought processes of the public.

When we react thoughtlessly, they use our emotional reactions to misrepresent us. It takes a cool head to avoid their traps.
We must keep our eyes on the prize instead of falling for this false dichotomy. ALL atrocities are unacceptable, no matter who does them. We do not need to trivialize or justify one evil in order to condemn another evil.

I'm not suggesting we should blithely ignore the workings of the Bush attack machine, but we need to be principled and smart about it. We do not need to respond, react, or defend all the time. The Republican Party is controlled by ruthless people who will put their immense financial resources into any and every propaganda technique to lie to the public. They have people whose only task is to sit around figuring out multi-media scenarios for spinning and outright lying, in response to any contingency. If they're caught with their hands in the pension money, caught blaming underlings for executive decisions, caught lying about WMD, caught lying about air quality, caught lying about education, caught lying about jobs, or caught lying about lying,they can always make enough noise to distract people or at least cast doubt on the perceptions of what they've done. If they can provoke unreasoned reactions from us we will say and do things that they can distort for their own purposes.

Speculating about the manifestations of Bush's Machiavellianism is a waste of energy and resources. We need to focus on what is provable. Whether there is a hidden agenda at work in the news about the murder of Nick Berg is not what we need to talk about. The Bush White House would love for us to fixate on that sort of story, because it alienates the casual observer and makes liberals and progressives seem flaky.

We need to live by our principles and make it clear that we are doing so. If we take back the White House(and the Congress?!), that is what will be required to succeed in government. We need to show that we can exercise discipline and follow conscience. We know that our principles are good, because they are based on the Constitution and human dignity. How can we best demonstrate THAT to the majority of voters?

If this election cycle is about who has the worst atrocities, the Neo-cons will prevail.
We have to make it about reality instead. Cause and effect. All of these recent events are abominable. Why are they happening? How can we fix these problems?

If we allow Bush to side track us and he is reselected, this miserable war will only be a fore-glimpse of the ideological debauchery that will ensue. Our duty is to prevent that, and we can best work to that end by being DIFFERENT from the liars that are governing now.
Here is a link (copy and paste into your browser) to a page you may want to read and share with others.
It is astonishing how this writing by Mark Twain clarifies the mind on the morality of war. Presidents should be required to read it aloud in public before invading another country:

http://lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/warprayer.htm
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Failure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. Look buddy, trying to disemble how repukes think is like trying
to put together one of those Sauder home-entertainment centers with 65000 pieces.


No Iraq War= No AlQaeda in Iraq
No Iraq War= No Nick Berg in Iraq


That oughta be easy even for repukes to understand. If someone tries to argue that the Iraq war was a good idea, in the words of the thief in chief, "bring 'em on"

failure.
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. One caller who stated exactly what you said was hung up on n/t
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Failure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. that's because if the pukes can't handle you, they get rid of you
I could say something, but I won't.


failure.
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charlie105 Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. A couple of things that struck me:
1. The RW attack machine now uses the video to bolster its claim of the Al-Qaeda-Iraq connection. But the war created the connection. We did not prove that there was any collaboration before that. So, if the war does not happen, the connection does not happen. Makes sense, but try drilling that into a moran brain.

2. Shouldn't the RW shrill-team wonder why the Resident was not shown (as he claims) the pictures two weeks before they aired on CBS? Why were they trying to hide it from the "C-in-C".
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. "But the war created the connection."
That is correct and every news reporter should be reporting this. So far I haven't heard anything.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
15. You must have been listening to the same station I was...
Edited on Wed May-12-04 09:37 AM by liburl
WLS. Surely, the drivers in cars next to me must have thought I was insane or afflicted by Tourette's.

They're claiming "the Left" needs to "wake up" because "they hate us!". Never mind that "the left" warned them time and time again to no avail that MORE terrorists would be created by the methods of prosecution for this "war on terra".

That's right. We are appeasers, apologists, and blame America first! Never mind that the actions taken has us LESS safe and created a greater divide among us. This while they take credit for the good things and assign blame for the missteps.

More hate-filled rhetoric. That's just what this country needs. :(
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. BINGO
With Air America gone, I had the misfortune of listening. I hate Don and Roma--I guess that makes me a masochist.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I miss AAR too!! I'm back to being really bitchy again. LOL n/t
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. One more thing...
With your post about the caller being hung up on it had to be Don Wade. It's so evident that the RW hate radio (like Don Wade) has taken it upon themselves to make sense of things and give some words of comfort for the population that is unable to believe their country has so betrayed them. Providing the talking points to make arguments through some disjointed logic is necessary to maintain the cognitive dissonance...bad things happen to bad people and I am not a bad person so those people can be nothing less than evil.
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Bingo again...
Don Wade did cut the caller short.

The incivility--actually it happens with Randi sometimes too :shrug:--is sometimes unbearable from both sides.

What I don't understand, though, is how seemingly intelligent people like Wade (and "seeming" is a stretch believe me) can take these convoluted talking points and embrace them so readily. Do they ever look at the conflicting facts that disprove their positions?

It's one thing to hang up when you are right, but it's another to hang up when you have no facts but just subjective opinions and you don't want others to know hear differing views.
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waywest Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
17. Last night's "The Daily Show"
with Jon Stewart, featured an article by the Senior news analyst, Stephen Colbert.
Colbert defended the media by listing all the things they DID NOT report, (awol, Florida 2000, energy papers, etc) to show that they are not the bad guys.
Wish I had that on tape.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. That was hilarious
and so true. Last night was another good show...spot on with all points. :)
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. they will also overlook
that we are not responsible for the Berg murder. However, WE are responsible for Abu Ghraib. We are also responsible for beheading children with 50 caliber machine guns, and dismembering civilians with 2000 lb. bombs. Too bad we didn't airdrop digital and video cameras into Falluja.
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