Bottom Line: IS THE BERG BEHEADING TAPE A FAKE?

[TheWizardOfMudd]

If you think it is, please state the evidence in support.

[TroubleMan]

1. No, but it looks like they edited out some parts

Probably one of them couldn't take it, so they composed themselves, cleaned it up a bit, and kept rolling.

They didn't want to show themselves weakening.

No matter what, it's still some sick shit.

[Trajan]

2. ALL is speculation ....

Except this thread, which is bait ....

[linazelle]

47. Bingo...notice how every news break is now accompanied by

a conspiracy thread? Accident or plot to undermine DU? I think it's the latter. Unfortunately, I'm adding to the problem by giving more attention to this thread than it deserves.

[sandnsea]

3. Maybe

First of all, I didn't watch the whole thing. I wish I hadn't watched any of it.

But between the peculiarity of Berg's disappearance itself, the white hands (for whatever that's worth), and the speed of it. The terrorists haven't ever done anything this quickly in the past, that I'm aware of. They like to release alot of clips and really terrorize everybody and really capitalize on the terror, then do whatever they're going to do. So this one seemed a bit quick actually. Unless they've been releasing tapes the last week or so and we just weren't told.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Hmm they did

OBL put a price on the heads of Bremmer, Sanchez, and Rumsfeld, it even made it to the hearings on Friday

That said, I think it is genuine, and as the prophet said

Sow the wind for you will reap a whirlwind

[sandnsea]

10. No, not what I meant

I meant specific threats to behead Berg. That's what they have done with captives in the past, not this kind of sudden action.

[imax2268]

5. who knows...

I wish I never watched it either...

the only thing that get's me is the timing of the whole thing...

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. I doubt it, since there are reports that they have recovered

his body. So I suppose that there is probably some truth to it.

I seem to recall that there were warnings about the possibility of kidnappings a couple of weeks ago.

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. If he had been beheaded

how did they know it was his body last Saturday, which was before they knew about the tape?

[R Hickey]

7. My guess is that he was killed by Bush's people to 'wag the dog'

If that man was in FBI custody for two weeks before he turned up dead, then it appears to me that his murder was committed by either the FBI or by some rogue CIA or Mussad death squad.

He was probably tortured for two weeks first, and they couldn't let him go because they were afraid he would blow the whistle on them. So they hatched this little murder scheme to "kill two birds with one stone."

The same people who suicided Blair's 'sexed up' whistle-blower, beheaded this man.

[MrSlayer]

8. No, I've seen a lot of this type of thing and it's real.

Now as to who did it and why, I'm not so sure I buy the official story. I can't believe anything these people say as I think they are incapable of telling the truth.

[blackcat77]

9. All I know is that it just doesn't feel right

Too many odd coincidences. Daniel Pearl, I believed completely and still do -- this one I don't.

The thought that's been going through my head is about how southern sheriffs used to let blacks out of jail in the middle of the night after they'd informed the Klan about it and then they did the dirty work. I really wonder if somebody in the intelligence community didn't drop a dime on this guy or set him up to go where he could be grabbed up.

[nolabels]

11. So very convenient also

The cabal looked like something different than remorseful as they walked out the viewing of the pictures. How could anybody trust anything these folks do is beyond me

[Frangible]

12. I think it's real

In some ways I wish it wasn't, but I think it likely is. The possiblity exists that it was faked/staged but I feel that is unlikely.

[0rganism]

13. Who the hell knows anymore?

Until I see some solid evidence of fakery, I'm going to assume that at least the killing was real. I haven't seen any indication that the Berg family thinks it wasn't Nick Berg. As to who did it, I won't even pretend to know that. They wore masks, acted like pompous asswipes for the first 4 minutes of the tape, and then turned into psycho murderer shitwads during the last minute or so. They represent some of the worst humanity has to offer, regardless of their reasons or identities.

[stickdog]

14. To repeat myself

There are four obvious cuts in the video.

One when the camera time goes from 2:44:12 to 13:45:47 (as the gross part begins).

At this point, the leader (in a dark head covering) is the one doing the carving. The only guy with a white head covering is on the the far left of the screen, holding the victim down.

Then there is a video cut at 13:46:33 which returns at 13:47:46 (a gap of about 1:13). Now the guy with the white head covering (who was holding the victim down on the left) suddenly "trades places" with the ostensible leader, and holds the head up to the camera for all of us to enjoy. The camera timestamp then jumps from 13:47:52 back to 2:46:17 (and then back again) with the same guy in a white head covering holding up the head. Note that at no time after the head is held up do we see any "terra'ist" other than one wearing a white head covering.

So what happened? Why did our big bad terra'ist leader require a stand in to complete the filming?

http://www.soulsurvivors.net/Public/iraq2vediom.wmv - (WARNING: Extremely graphic)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jvdkuyp/iraq2vedio2.rm.ram

[0rganism]

15. Could be two different time settings, like time elapsed and 24-hour time

Why wouldn't fakers just turn off the time stamp altogether? Doesn't make sense. The personnel switch... dunno. Maybe the first guy's hands got too bloody to hold the knife firmly? Could have been his first murder, and he was losing his lunch.

However, the jostling cut in the middle of the execution is odd. Did someone knock over the tripod, or what?

[stickdog]

16. Whatever it was, the guy who started doing the cutting was replaced.

The whole thing looks like something even Ed Wood would have left on the cutting room floor.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

22. Ha ha ha

Funny Ed Wood reference. Very clever. :)

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. that's what bothers me, why leave the time stamp on?

if you are going to make a "staged" video, why leave the time stamp. i suspicious none the less.

[Merlin]

17. No. The Bottom Line is: IS IT A CONCOCTION OF US COVERT OPS ?

THAT'S the real question.

It could well be not a fake -- i.e. a genuine snuff film -- yet be the product of a psy ops team operating, say, from within the DIA under Rummy's DOD doing this because they know it will help break the back of the torture scandal.

Asking for evidence supporting this possibility is no more valid than asking for evidence to support the possibility that it is legit.

At this stage the jury is out.

We are free people. We don't have to decide when you say we have to decide.

[Walt Starr]

18. The REAL bottom Line: WHO THE FUCK ARE THE MURDERERS?

I don't know. They claim to be Al Queda, but then again, George W. Bush claimed Saddam had nuclear weapons, so we know how important it is to believe the claims made by madmen.

[0rganism]

19. Do they? A translator on CNN claims they never mention Al Qaeda

Not that what those guys say or don't say has any bearing on who they actually work for.

[roguevalley]

20. actually, if it was al-Zahawri who did this, it wasn't in Iraq I suppose.

I doubt he would be in Iraq. But if he was, this means there is more of Iraq running outside of our 'control' than we have been told. He's the most wanted fugitive in the world behind Osama and he came to Iraq to personally cut a guy's head off?!?!?!

[charlie]

24. The CNN translator

mentioned in this thread says the guy claiming to be Zarqawi didn't have a Jordanian accent:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1585675

[truebrit71]

21. Riddle me this....Why would you cover your face when you say your name?

Isn't that sort of redundant?

"Hi my name is al-Zahawri, but I'm going to cover my face because I don't want you to KNOW it's me..even though I just told you my name.."


Makes no sense...Unless the guy saying he was al-Zahawri, actually WASN'T..

[TheWebHead]

48. he may have changed his appearance

but from what I heard al-Zahawri wasn't necessarily the person doing it, but was the leader of the group that did, ie. in the name of.

[Delano]

23. The Real Bottom Line: (You won't like this)

We are all just little folks speculating on a discussion board. Nothing we can say or do will have ANY effect on this young man's fate, and even if we could "uncover the truth" whatever that is, it will make no difference in public opinion, which is already set that this was an AQ killing.

If you think there was a conspiracy, don't waste your energy on speculating about it. Accept the cover story and be swept along with the current. NOTHING we say or do will change this. If it's black ops, we will never find or prove anything - express your sadness for the guy, and move on so we can try and get this bum Bush out of office.

Besides, I'm pretty sure it is Al Qaeda (they learned a lot of what they know from the CIA anyway, right?).

[Karenina]

25. DING! I think we have a winner

for the most pathetic post of the hour. :eyes:

Yes, Nick Berg's fate is sealed. Ours may not yet be. His death, the video and the "story" all reek from top to bottom. The "event," being used to stir up American racial hatred and support of violence REEKS of a familiar stench.

The TRUTH will set you free. Check out Tinoire's thread if you want to start asking the questions that will lead to it.

[Delano]

29. Yeah. I'm pathetic. Right.

And you guys are all super-sleuths like Scully and Mulder and your discovery of "the truth" will bring the whole BFEE house of cards crashing down.

There were all kinds of suspicious things surrounding Bushco's actions before & after 9-11, yet that has turned into nothing. What makes you think finding "the truth" about this sickening incident will make any difference?

Sure the right has pounced on this as a cheap, racist propaganda tool. That's what they do.

That doesn't mean Bush ordered up a beheading to shore up his numbers, and it SURE AS HELL doesn't PROVE it.

[linazelle]

33. Delano you make a lot of sense...choosing battles wisely is key

Too much of this stuff is sickening, really. There's plenty else to focus on proving without adding this to the list.

[Az]

36. Then from that perspective

What does it matter if we consider in our own way what happened over there. After all we are just an internet forum speaking our mind to each other. We do not expect grand juries to be appointed based on our explorations. Perhaps this is just our way of dealing with some very nasty issues.

Perhaps your reaction is just your way of dealing with the horror of what happened. Can we find some way to live with each of our ways of resolving this in our lives? Or do we have to determine which way is the right way?

[Delano]

40. It deserves to be looked into.

But some people here have a tendency to AUTOMATICALLY attribute EVERYTHING to some BFEE conspiracy. Jeez, the story wasn't out an hour before they started in.

Would it kill people to wait until a FEW of the facts are in?

It makes DU look so looney that we ALWAYS jump to the same conclusion.

[Karenina]

51. Look Sweetie,

These *folks got a plan. They wrote it out and are implementing it. Your and my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness do NOT figger into it, not one whit.

Facts? How many more "facts" do you need before concluding that a *corp-controlled media is NOT serving your interests? Good thing Gore "created the internet." Here all us geeks can check out to our own satisfation how fucked-up it is.

:tinfoilhat: This latest made for dingbats video is a commercial to appeal to racial hatred. Anyone outside the US can see it, but we hear,

"GET OFF RUMMY'S BACK!"

Hands off the man, flim-flam man
His mind is up his sleeve
and his talk is make believe
OH LAWD the man's a fraud
He's a flim-flam man.

This "beheading" REEKS of flim-flam. Should we all ignore the stench of the pile of feces in the living room?

[keithyboy]

26. If Islamists wanted 'revenge' I think they would have attacked soldiers

not this lone civilian. There are too many things about this incident that smell ...I just don't think Al-qaeda did this. They know the sensitivites of their own people better than we. They would have know that this would turn many against them and make Arabs look bad.

I just smell a rat. Some kind of black-bag job methinks.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

28. I imagine the image of them decapitating a GI would be very effective.

Not that what was achieved wasn't effective, but that would have been worse, if possible.

[Delano]

32. Nonsense. Terrorists' hallmark is cowardly attacks on innocent civilians.

Doesn't seem strange to me at all. Fits in perfectly with 9-11, bus bombings in Israel, and all the filthy Al Qaeda attacks around the world. Since when have Al Qaeda courageously attacked armed soldiers? The last incident I can think of that came close was the attack on the Cole.

[keithyboy]

52. Oh, you mean like dropping 2,000 lb bombs on a city full of...let me see

"terrorists." Or do you mean send missiles into a city from a ship hundreds of miles away? I get it.

[Delano]

53. Did I say that Bush was anything other than a terrorist?

He is a total terrorist. But I will not label our toops as such. They have to follow their orders, and many are totally mindfucked byt the media and their "training" I know, I've been through it.

These Islamic terrorists have CHOSEN to be outlaws. They could just as easily live deccent lives and fight the US actions in other ways, but no, they CHOOSE to slaughter an innocent man.

Our troops are tought to think of civilian deaths as "collateral damage", and they believe that those giving the orders arre trying their best to avoid it.

If you show me a video of our troops beheading an Iraqi civilian for no reason, I'll condemn it just as strongly. (I was condemning the US soldiers who ran over an Iraqi corpse with their tank just on Monday.)

[Az]

30. Chalibi

Or perhaps some other party with something at stake in the war. I don't see Bush and Crew seeing this as a opportunity. Sure it gets the torture photos off the front burner but it carries too many other political factors.

There are too many inconsistancies in the story, the tape, the situation. It simply seems manipulative. Even the Iraqi's are expressing doubt about the veracity of it.

As to whether it depicts the actual murder I do not know. Again too many opportunities to create a false image. Evidence is out on this one.

[ewagner]

49. Thank you AZ

You've said what I am thinking....Chalabi has a lot to lose if the US pulls a cut and run because of anger over the prison photos. That's pure speculation on my part.

[CityZen-X]

34. Killers-Contracted Employee's

Let's tell it staight, these are Mercenary's! Mercs kill for pleasure and of coarse the money. One thing that should be pointed out is that these so called terrorists are sure looking like they have not missed to many meals. I mean they do not physically look like the typical image of a terrorist on the run living off of rations. The images I have seen through the eyes of the media, home, and abroad, depicts the terrorist as a thin person living a life of stress. They also appear to be slot darker than the ones in the video. Another factor is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has been reported to have been killed in a bombing months ago! Another item they struck me was the individual on the extreme left who is standing at "parade rest" just like trained soldiers do.
I say this is the demonic act of Mercenary's paid for the vile corporations in Iraq who work along with the C.I.A. Just imagine what these Mercs have been doing to the Iraqi civilians and getting away with it.

[mopaul]

35. it's DAMN suspicious, the timing, the mystery, no verification by c.i.a.

and it's perfectly alright to speculate about shit like this, it was only one day ago, let the theories fly.

add all the chatter, and add the fact that these are evil, desperate men in charge, and you start to get crazy notions.

[Solomon]

43. Plus, let's face it. The guys on the video looked like a ragtag

inept group. You will never get me to believe Al what's his name was in that video. They look like amateurs, not experienced terrorists. And then there's the "Allah Akbar" as they're cutting off the head. A little too pat for me. The fat guy on the right fidgets quite a bit and he never looks at the camera, he looks at the guy reading the statement.

The sound was dubbed over too. Notice as the reader can't quite get his letter right side up for reading but the sound of his voice keeps going anyway.

It's a strange case indeed.

[Karenina]

46. And check out where the *shit came from

An Al-Kiddya site traced to Doug Hagmann/ Northeast Intelligence Network. Heh? :freak:

[grasswire]

37. sorry, Delano

I take great exception to your characterization of concerned and curious netizens as "little people" whose musing and research will never amount to anything.

Perhaps you haven't been involved in the Internet community for long, or perhaps you don't get around on the net much, but I can tell you this: were it not for little knots of opposition activists on the Internet, the Bushes would not have been questioned on

1. The AWOL status of W.
2. Black Box Voting
3. The aftermath of election 2000
4. The events of 9-11 in a comprehensive timeline

(That's just a few of the stories that were developed through cooperative effort of net-based researchers. Google any one of those and find heroic and historic work of regular people -- an Iowa farmer, a gay waiter, a female public relations professional.)

Research and thought of netizens feeds blogs. Blogs influence news coverage. It's a brave new world.

[Delano]

41. I'm all for looking into suspicious stuff.

But not for automatically announcing that EVERY SINGLE incident is a BFEE plot before ANY facts are in. No, I'm not new to the net, and I do have a vague familiarity with the investigative process, and I'm pretty sure that responsible investigators don't call a press conference 10 minutes after a crime and announce "IT WAS A CONSPIRACY BY XXXXX"

The Berg tape should be investigated. All the speculation going on here doesn't further that at all.


"1. The AWOL status of W.
2. Black Box Voting
3. The aftermath of election 2000
4. The events of 9-11 in a comprehensive timeline"

4 things that did less to hurt Dumbya's poll numbers than his failed war and support of foreign outsourcing.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[librechik]

39. as soon as they start lying you have to wonder what they're hiding

Senor from the CPA says they never had him in custody! The iraq police did--but who so they answer to? WHY is this man lying?

we will probaby never know what really happened to Nick. But all the endless lying does nothing to promote trust in anybody.

[Danieljay]

42. when I noticed the tarp rolled out beneath him...

that was a pretty good indication of what was to come. I didn't watch the entire video...I don't want that in my consciousness...no way. My heart was pounding just knowing it was coming and that was when I knew to click it off.

[Disturbed]

44. The Web site

The page where it 1st appeared is the place to start.
It would take an expert in puter knowledge to ascertain if that
site is an authentic Al Q Web page or a Psy Ops page.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. First, state your evidence that the film is NOT a fake.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

50. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means

but I wonder if anyone has noticed that the man on the far right in the video is holding an MP5 submachinegun and not an AK47? This really means nothing in and of itself; however, this is not a weapon that one of these guys would have. It just makes me wonder a bit.