I've lost a home here.

[Raven]

There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder. Simply no defense. The people who have posted on DU suggesting that there is, suggesting that Americans are as bad or worse than these sub-humans, have absolutely nothing in common with me and I will not be associated with them by sharing this web site with them.

There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder or the murder of a journalist, which happened in the same barbaric way...months before the abuse of Iraqis by American troops was known.

There is no defense of this latest barbaric execution no matter how much one hates George W. Bush.

There is also no defense of the joking, confabulating, snickering and conspiricy theorizing that has gone on here tonight. No defense at all.

If some of you think that you could express your vaulted opinions in a country run by the barbarians who slaughtered Berg without getting your precious throat cut, well, I'll buy you the airline ticket...one way.

There is a way of seeing right from wrong...of holding ones' country accountable...of holding ones' country's leaders accountable, without condoning the actions of people who are more barbaric (if that is possible, and it is) than we are.

Keep it up, guys and gals, and you will do more to get Bush reelected than any RW pac...Rove loves it and he wants more of your sick, destructive bullshit. He's counting on you.

Having said the above, I'll retract one thing...I won't leave here...I'll stay around...maybe I'll join a truth squad here...maybe I'll just haunt your dreams.

[legin]

1. Lighten up will you

We just had victory snatched from our grasp, it is highly unsurprising the reaction to it.

[rumguy]

12. this post of yours is wrong on several levels, and I don't mean

factually wrong...

[seabeyond]

20. just had victory snatched

this is what i think so many are saying. what are you talking victory has been snatched. we are talking a person. a person that experienced something so horrendous, here it is now after midnight. i watched this at three. and i still am seeing this man and what he experienced. i am still feeling his father on the ground sobbing.

the same happened with the pictures of those human beings who were tortured by our people. they are not a victory. they are people

how we win this fight is being above this shit. how we win, is being human

when we start saying a win with those pictures of torture and denigration of fellow man, is when we are rush

[legin]

26. I understand what you are saying, it's a good point. n/t

[LabMonkey]

102. My god.

"We just had victory snatched from our grasp, it is highly unsurprising the reaction to it."

Are you out of your effin' mind!!!?????
Victory????!!!!!

Raven is DEAD ON. I couldnt believe some of the things I was reading.
This isnt something to "lighten up" about or wonder how
political traction will be gained or lossed! Its sick.
It makes me feel physically Ill anyone would be contemplating
how atrocities traded back and forth will help or hurt them in an election.

You want to win that way, go ahead and try.
screw that. The price is too high.

Thank god someone said something.

I stand with Kerry AND Bush as an American.
Some things are beyond politics.


JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 11 /U.S. Newswire/ -- John Kerry issued the following statement on the murder of Nicholas Berg:

"Like all Americans, I'm horrified and deeply saddened by the senseless murder of Nicholas Berg. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and with the families of all our troops and civilians working under such dangerous conditions to rebuild and bring peace to Iraq. We are grateful for the work you do and the risks you take. The terrorists who committed this atrocity will not prevail, and America stands together against them."

------

[outinforce]

124. "A Victory Snatched"????

What sort of talk is this?

A "Victory"??

Against whom?

I view it as a tragedy compounded.

[flaminbats]

2. I'll miss you soooooo verrry much!

Don't forget to write.

And thanks for getting us into this shithole called Iraq!

[Eureka]

7. If I remember correctly

Raven didn't vote on the IWR. Correct me if I'm wrong Raven.

How did Raven get you into Iraq? Spell it out for us! Let us know how she did it?

Fuckwit.

[flaminbats]

40. Did I imply that Raven got us into Iraq?

I'm merely thanking all who are responsible, regardless of whether they accept it or not! I don't want any more innocents to die for nothing..

[Eureka]

50. No, you thanked her for it

Or are you going to suggest that the three sentences you posted were somehow posted towards someone other than Raven?

Here are your sentences:

I'll miss you soooooo verrry much!
Don't forget to write.
And thanks for getting us into this shithole called Iraq!


So the subject, "I'll miss you sooooo verrrry much!" couldn't possibly be directed at anyone other than Raven, since it's a direct reply to her thread.

Line two, "Don't forget to write" appears to be directed at Raven, since it fits the sarcastic spelling in the subject.

So with two direct reply sentences, are you suggesting that the third line is directed to the world in general? With no indication that this was the case, or even any potential signal that this was the case.

You must be out of your mind if you think a reasonable person would accept that. There is no question that Post 15 sums it up nicely.

[flaminbats]

99. Am I on trial?

There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder. Simply no defense. The people who have posted on DU suggesting that there is, suggesting that Americans are as bad or worse than these sub-humans, have absolutely nothing in common with me and I will not be associated with them by sharing this web site with them.

This is an uncalled for attack on my fellow posters. I have read no liberal posts at DU defending this murder. Secondly no Christian, Jew, or Muslim is subhuman, but every human deserves a fair trial. No innocent civilian, Iraqi or American should be slaughtered this way. And all guilty individuals on both sides of this war should pay the price for such actions!

There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder or the murder of a journalist, which happened in the same barbaric way...months before the abuse of Iraqis by American troops was known.


There is no defense of this latest barbaric execution no matter how much one hates George W. Bush.

Casus belli?

There is also no defense of the joking, confabulating, snickering and conspiracy theorizing that has gone on here tonight. No defense at all.

Ipse dixit...

If some of you think that you could express your vaulted opinions in a country run by the barbarians who slaughtered Berg without getting your precious throat cut, well, I'll buy you the airline ticket...one way.

I agree that no nation should be run by barbarians. But I have not read any vaulted opinions, nor do I see a reason to buy any person at DU a one way airline ticket.

There is a way of seeing right from wrong...of holding ones' country accountable...of holding ones' country's leaders accountable, without condoning the actions of people who are more barbaric (if that is possible, and it is) than we are.

War is both hell and murder. Barbarism is the defining human characteristic. When it comes to barbarism, all humans are created equal. Ecce homo!

Keep it up, guys and gals, and you will do more to get Bush reelected than any RW pac...Rove loves it and he wants more of your sick, destructive bullshit. He's counting on you.

De gustibus non est disputandum

Having said the above, I'll retract one thing...I won't leave here...I'll stay around...maybe I'll join a truth squad here...maybe I'll just haunt your dreams.

obiter dictum...

[WilliamPitt]

15. Dumbest. Post. Ever.

[QC]

21. And the competition for that title is very stiff tonight. n/t

[Raven]

18. You prove my point.

n/t

[flaminbats]

44. Argumentum ex silentio..

Why prove a worthless point?

[DarkPhenyx]

3. And there is no defense for the actions...

...of those soldiers involved in the atrocities conducted by American service members which instigated the Berg execution.

We aren't more barbaric than they are. We are simply equally barbaric.

[rumguy]

14. this was AQ - they don't need "reasons" to slaughter Americans

[DarkPhenyx]

22. you're point being?

Aren't we supposed to be better than they are? Or am I wrong about that?

[0rganism]

111. 1. You don't know who it was, 2. They have reasons if they ever need 'em

1. You don't know who was on that tape. You can pretend all you like, but unless you're really hip with voice recognition of people speaking Arabic, you're talking out your ass.

2. Maybe AQ doesn't need reasons to slaughter Americans, but every Iraqi in that sad country has reason enough to hate Americans. We installed their dictator, gave him weapons of mass destruction even after we knew he was using them on the Kurds, lured them into an attack on Kuwait, slaughtered them on the retreat, propped up Hussein in the aftermath of GW1, supported a deadly and humiliating sanctions regime, invaded them for nothing more than no-bid contracts for Dick Cheney's company, bombed their cities and electric grids and sewage treatment centers and water purification plants, installed an interim police-state government headed by a known thug, appointed an operative from Honduras' death squad days as ambassador, murdered and tortured and raped their people...

They may not need reasons to kill us, but if they want reasons, they have reasons. In Spades.

[bpilgrim]

4. 'sub-humans'

hmmm...

peace

[rumguy]

16. Well can you imagine the minds of those that did this?

I can't.

[JCMach1]

5. Murder, yes is murder and torture, alas, torture

But, to ask legitimate questions is also important.

There are a number to be asked about the Berg video... and it must be done.

[meow mix]

11. DING! there are questions to be asked..

i agree with that!

people are completly freaking out over questions though.. state of shock i guess?

[opihimoimoi]

6. I can't say I blame you. it is indeed a sick day... for all Humanity

To see the root cause, we must examine ourselves in totality.

America and much of the world, has been brainwashed. We luv to follow the wrong people it seems, why must be looked into. Prevention will follow. A better future promising only if we contend with ourselves in a pragmatic manner.

Come, we go drink, look at the world and try to enjoy the goodness, what little is left, and ...sigh.....

[Raster]

8. Raven, it's all wrong, all of it....

...there's no way to justify or defend Berg's murder, and for that matter, who would want to. It's as unjustifiable and indefensible as some of the atrocities that we have been the cause of. It's all bad. Nothing good comes of cruelty and repression, no matter who is doing the repressing.

Violence only begets violence. Hatred only breeds hatred. This is not the way to change things for the better, for both sides.

Unfortunately, terrorism is now a response to terror.

Pray for Nick Berg's family. He is another sensless casualty of this unjust and unholy conflict.

[calimary]

24. Damn! This is a sad night.

It IS all wrong. From every quarter. What our guys did was/is wrong. What happened to Nick Berg was/is wrong. It IS all wrong. We shouldn't have gone there to begin with! The jones for war and wispy shades of killer weapons and vaporous spectres of threats, on top of the violence and death and gore and paranoia - ICK. What a witch's brew. THIS is what we get for allowing the bushies to steal back the car keys. They've driven the whole works right off a cliff. We've literally let the drunk guard the liquor store. To put it mildly.

Guys - this is when we DO need the comfort and solace and solidarity of each other at this little oasis-in-the-ether. Heck, if we're turning on each other over this, what good will that do? We all need to be even more relentlessly shoulder-to-shoulder - against a very clear common enemy.

This only underscores how absolutely vital it is for us to win. Less than six months.

STOP.

PLEASE!!!

Catch your breath, guys.

Try to get some sleep, or otherwise regroup.

Just do it.

This is just too important.

We have LOTS of work to do!

[Raven]

36. Boy! Do I love you!

Why couldn't I have said it as well as you did!

[calimary]

133. Thanks, Raven. Hugs!

I'm just SO incredibly sad today. I was writing an email to a friend whose birthday gathering I missed (I'm CERTAIN it was good that I missed it. I've been so downhearted lately I know I would have ruined her whole evening, and everybody else's. Typhoid Mary, you know) and I just started crying while I was writing it.

I still hope you, and others here who've become so distressed and disconsolate about this will stick around.

Hell, if nothing else, at least it got Will Pitt back posting more regularly than once-every-two-weeks or so. We need his eloquent voice as well. YOURS also. We all need each other right now.

It's. Just. So. Sad. I do find comfort here.

But. It's. Just. So. Sad.

[SEpatriot]

33. I'm with you

I just think its all too much. You don't overcome thuggery and violence with more thuggery and violence. I have said from the very beginning that the Abu Graib incidents were not simply "isolated incidents" and I believe that a lot of shady operators were connected to that. But the whole situation in Iraq is out of hand and we are on the precipice of an abyss because we've lost our moral compass.

You hate what you fear. FDR said we have nothing to fear but fear itself. We must learn to be free from fear, to do so we must rid ourselves of those who justify war by way of fear.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

9. Dude, If you considered a message board your "home"

Maybe you should reconsider.

[markses]

10. Can't blame you

The DUnior Detective Crew has made this place a rat's nest of ratshit tonight - as bad as it has ever been.

Go with tolerance and harmony.

[Jim Warren]

13. Pretty sure of yourself aren't ya

I've seen no snickering.
Questioning the veracity of government, media and web reports in the age of bush is a given for one looking for more than the veneer of truth.

[Colin Ex]

17. People deal with stress in different ways.

Some people accept and move on. Other people go absolutely apeshit and won't let go.

Looks like a lot of DUers are of the apeshit variety.

I don't know what it is that makes people look at this and think about what it'll do to their political enemies, but I do know that it's pretty heinous.

-C

[meow mix]

19. "maybe I'll join a truth squad here" wtf is that anyways??

i dont get it..

[Raven]

32. Hah! Meow, I'm not totally sure what I meant by that!

I think I meant that lots of times I lurk here and see people saying some really absurd things and don't weigh in. Maybe I shouldn't have called it a "truth squad" because, after all, who knows what the truth is...maybe I meant just weighing in when things get rediculous here. :-)

[0rganism]

112. The truth squad meets on alternate thursdays in the DU Lounge

11:00 PM, EST. BYOB.

[quinnox]

23. people come in all shades of morality

and lack of it, same with having a conscience. Of course there is no defense for evil acts, but that won't stop certain people from trying. It's really par for the course from my point of view.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raven]

39. Clean up your language and

try to be civil, will ya? I never said we should be in Iraq and I'm not the one who has lost my objectivity.

[the_real_38]

42. Sure sounds to me like you're succumbing ...

.. to a media "patriot" blitz - innocent people are being killed in Iraq every day. Some woman on her way to market with her kid, a couple of soldiers start shooting at some people fleeing them, the woman and the kid get struck down as collateral damage, one of them dead, and the other maimed. Happens every day - 10,000 people dead, others without limbs or even eyes.

If you're going to get caught up in some mainstream media scam to rally support behind Bush's insane policies, this ain't the place for you. Get the f*** out of here!

[Raven]

46. Sweetie, no, YOU get out.

Or get civil and get control. I never have supported Bush or the "mainstream media" and if you'd been here long enough, you'd know that.

[the_real_38]

53. I've been here quite a while, ....

... and when you play along with some patriotic hysterics about one death, you're playing their game. Take a look at my previous post - how come you're not getting all worked up about the atrocities that are being committed every day in the name of this f***er's (that's Bush by the way) imperial fantasies?

[redqueen]

129. I wonder about that too - this man's death means so much more,

apparently.

Why?!

:(

[Colin Ex]

48. Yeah, dude, you're hardcore.

That example of collateral damage is heinous and wrong.

So is chopping off some dude's head and taking a picture of it. (Kind of rough that you called it a "scam" -- not the point.)

Neither of these -- the collateral damage or chopping off some poor dude's head -- justifies the other.

-C

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colin Ex]

57. Then take a breath and step back, man.

Approach this kind of thing when you're more rational and a little less pissed off and emotional.

'cos right now, I would submit, you're kind of acting like an ass.

-C

[the_real_38]

60. Dude, I'm just having fun...

... telling the truth as I see it. It's a nice view, too. Course, I got a head and two arms.

[WilliamPitt]

51. Make her

and me, for that matter, tough guy.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

No, you were talking to my mother

who has been here far longer than you, who proved her cred day after day back when you were a sperm in your daddy's sack.

You want drama? Mouth off ignorantly to my mom again.

Never mind. You will anyway. You're that thick.

[the_real_38]

66. She can prove her "cred" right now...

... and retract her opinion. There was no mouthing off, there was no ignorance, and I'm sorry if my prose isn't theatrical enough for you to follow (I'm just assuming from the way you write).

[WilliamPitt]

69. The day she has to prove anything to you

is the day cows jump over the moon.

Theatrical enough? What, by the way, do you do to make a difference in the world...besides post on a website? Speaking of cred...

[Jim Warren]

85. Asking a question like that

can only imply you have a very high regard for the difference in the world you are making posting on websites Mr. Pitt, and I assume you to believe a righteous one.

No dog in this fight I, just calling you out on your bullshit!

So give a measure then of the difference you make.

[the_real_38]

89. Nice call...

... little contradiction in logic, there - in formal terms.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raven]

71. No mouthing off???

Tell me, is it possible for you to communicate without the ****'s! It just might be possible to have a sane conversation without the ****'s, don't you think?

[WilliamPitt]

73. Oh ******* the ******** and then ****** with the ****** and the ******

This is good debate...or something.

Hi, mom! :hi:

[the_real_38]

82. What a lame rejoinder...

... n/t

[WilliamPitt]

84. *********

[QC]

77. Well, let's not be so rough on him.

It *is* very hard to type when you don't have opposable thumbs yet.

[WilliamPitt]

79. *snarf*

Yeah, typing with your face is frustrating, I assume.

:)

*wham wham wham*

[the_real_38]

81. What's the matter with the ****'s?

Seriously, I was just having fun there, lady - had a good night with the Cards, won a little money, hit a couple of pints and the pipe, got on the site and just adopted a voice for the occasion. I can do a whole bunch of different ones. Depends on my mood. Your son isn't quite so flexible - I could swear I hear strings in the background every time I read his s***.

That doesn't mean that I'm not right, because I am. You overreacted to a highly charged event, but I suppose at some level it's understandable. Do what you want, I've had my fun and I will try not to address you again. Guten abent.

[Raven]

98. I am so glad you had fun with this...

interesting..."I hit a couple of pints and the pipe"...says to me :I'm not really responsible for what I said here...interesting..."I had fun"...glad you did, but on a subject like this, you should really be ashamed of yourself for considering this "fun". And, do, try not to "address" me again.

[liberalhistorian]

137. She doesn't have to prove

shit to you. She's more than earned her credibility, which is far more than can be said of you. I'm getting real tired of relative newbies telling the long-timers to shove it.

[Jim Warren]

68. Hahaha (genuine laughter)

You guys are toooo much.

Thanks for lightening up the thread, 'net tough guys!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. And you need to just shut the hell up.

[Colin Ex]

58. Okay, guys, whip them out

and we'll see who has the longer one. (I mean, of course, vocabulary.)

I think we should settle disputes like this via games of Pong. Or maybe strip poker?

-C

[devilgrrl]

45. Civil?

You basically accused everyone here of being utterly insensitive and joyous over a horrific murder that was video taped. Civil?

Perhaps your comments weren't meant for everybody but don't be surprised if some take them personally - I did. x(

[Cronus Protagonist]

78. Weren't you leaving?

I was just wondering if you had changed your mind.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[liberalhistorian]

134. No, my friend, it appears

that YOU are the one who needs to, as you so eloquently put it, "get the fuck out of here", because YOU are the one who probably doesn't belong here!

How DARE you say that to Raven or any other long-timers here! Who the hell do you think you are? Every word she says is true, and when you have old-timers like her and Lone Liberal and hippiechick and others leaving because of it, you know we've got a problem here.

The threads about Berg are nothing but a goddamned joke, and make us look like crackpot fools. He was murdered by, as someone else said, sick fucks with no regard for human life and who used the abuse of prisoners as just an excuse to do what they had likely planned to do all along anyway. NOT EVERYTHING IS A CONSPIRACY! NOT EVERYTHING WAS PLANNED BY BUSH/RUMSFELD, ET AL.! Berg's murder is a horrible tragedy that should be mourned by every single American and that should anger every single American, and the ho-hum, tinfoil-hat, so-what-he-got-what-he-deserved-and-it-was-all-planned-by-the-government-anyway bullshit threads are absolutely sickening, embarrassing, and shameful to me as an American, as they should be to EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN!

Never have I been more ashamed of this site than I have been the past few days. We've had some nutball threads in the past, but the Berg ones take the cake. And to those of you who have a problem with what I've said, maybe YOU are the ones who don't belong here!!!!

[Trajan]

27. Defending Berg's Murder is a DU trait ? ....

Show me ....

Please: indulge me, so I can see it too ...

Post the threads here so we can judge for ourselves ....

I see nothing but almost universal revulsion ... and NO 'defending' ...

[gratuitous]

28. So just because the murder of Iraqi detainees wasn't videotaped . . .

You're willing to issue a blanket condemnation of the animals who executed Mr. Berg, and a blanket excuse for our own people? I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning here. Or have you forgotten that your tax dollars and mine paid for this:



After this guy was killed by our troops, they stuck a fake IV in his arm in a lame attempt to try to cover up what had been done to him. Take a look at his face. Do you want to guess what sort of beating he took before he succumbed? And again, it's your tax dollars and mine that put that guy into the body bag. I'm pretty sure he never did anything to me, and I didn't ask anybody to protect my freedom from him. But there he is, dead all the same.

Still want to compare barbarities? Okay, maybe we in the United States are marginally better than the thugs who cut off Berg's head. But they're not in our country, we're in theirs.

Be sure you gather ALL the truth for your truth squad, my friend. It's not a pretty picture on either side.

[Raven]

41. Compare barbarities???

Not me! It's all barbaric.

[gratuitous]

74. Right you are

But in your original post (and it took me a while to find the photo of Detainee 153399), you mentioned people who are "more barbaric" than we in the U.S. are. That was the genesis for my statement in reply.

Anyway, I'm hoping that you don't bug out of DU. There's a lot of slag and dross for anyone around here, and I hope you can learn to filter it out or ignore some of the postings that so offend or upset you. There's also a lot of useful information and a good feeling that comes from seeing kindred thoughts, particularly when you're wondering if anyone else is seeing the same madness you are.

[RapidCreek]

121. Since Mr. Pitt claims to be your son.....

Let's take your other foot out of your mouth and put the shoe on it.

If Will had been detained by the FBI/MI in Iraq for two weeks and you had to file a law suit against Donald Rumsfeld in Federal Court to gain his released (assuming you would, because of course the FBI/MI have consistently demonstrated their virtuous qualities over the years) and upon that "release" he promptly "disappeared" only to reappear 3 days later with his head separated from his body, an event punctuated by the conveniently timed release of a cut up, blurry video depicting the inhuman acts responsible for that separation, would you be so quick to castigate those who pointed out the strangeness of the story surrounding his death?

I'm assuming you would not. I'm assuming you'd be right here on this board castigating those who speak as you do now.

The barbarity of an action hardly places the circumstances surrounding that action outside the purview of critical examination. If it did ALL of Wills books should meet with the same criticism you have recently seen fit to put forth on this issue. He should never have written a book featuring the "subversive", "paranoid" "rantings" of that "child molesting freak" Scott Ritter....and is certainly worthy of your scorn for doing so.....particularily considering the fact that unlike those who post on this board, he sought profit for doing so.

More to the point...I have not seen ONE post on this board defending the actions of those depicted in the video of Bergs murder....not one. Quite the contrary, in fact. I've read...many posts and initiated one questioning the circumstances which led up to that horrible film....much the same as "your sons" questioning of the circumstances which led to the war which enticed Bergs ill-advised trip to Iraq in the first place.

"The Greatest Sedition is Silence"....if this is so....are you not guilty of sedition?

RC


P.S. I don't need, as you suggest, to go to Iraq to experience
the intimidation of a government who seeks to quell free thought My
Uncle, a Nuclear Chemist who helped build the bombs dropped on Japan stood in the way of G.E. and Westinghouse when they sought to bring commercial Nuclear Power generation to fruition. For doing so, he was conspired against and accused of being a communist. He suffered through the trials of The House Committee on UnAmerican Activities and was eventually exhonerated...but not before the very intentional damage was done. My entire family was shadowed and had their phones bugged by the FBI from about 1954 to 1965.

[Lex]

29. Having just witnessed US military men & women

torture and humiliate Iraqi men, women, and children,

WHY is it wrong for me to ask questions surrounding the death of Mr. Berg? Was our military involved in some fucked up, psy-ops, manipulate the press and the masses, kind of way?

Why are those questions and ponderings so vile to some?

Have we not been manipulated into War on Iraq in the first place through lies for public consumption?

I question everything now. For sure, the press will not.

[LibertyorDeath]

114. A voice of sanity, Well said Lex...

[turiya]

30. there is no need to call them sub human

or barbaric.
And I have not seen 1 person defend the act of the murder.

[Joe the Revelator]

52. Any person who can..

cut off another person's head is barbaric and sub-human.

[Nostradammit]

90. Hear! Hear!

The truly civilized man uses cluster bombs to blow them off.

Quite right!


Carry on...

[Joe the Revelator]

109. I'm glad you got exactly what i was saying

:eyes:

[Valerie5555]

31. Don't worry for I only saw the video, possibly just out of I confess,

morbid curiosity as to whether or not it was harrowing as people say and it no doubt was pretty harrowing, though I wasn't really that shocked or surprised by it as I half expected that the "crapola" that transpired would lead to that. I also admit to seeing quite a bit of harrowing stuff on sites like rotten.com and that prepared me for that in a way.

[leftofthedial]

34. I agree there is no defense

the beheading is an outrage and whoever did it should be brought to justice.

I'm just not sure who did it.

I'm also not sure anymore where in this cesspool of violence, lies and barbarism the bushgang have unleashed on our country and the world, exactly where justice lay.

Don't leave Raven. And please don't haunt my dreams. I already have more than enough demons when I close my eyes.

[UNIXcock]

103. It makes me wonder, but still

I too feel that there simply no defense.

I just wish all the horror would stop

[TiredTexan]

35. There is an older Mark Fiore

cartoon where a Palestinian shoots an Israeli (or vice versa), and the Israelis bomb the Palestinians who then send a suicide bomber who blows up innocent civilians, causing more bombing, etc., ad nauseum. Nothing remains at the end. The message is obvious.

Violence begets violence. That is the purpose of the Geneva Convention, of international law. We are signatories to these agreements, but have violated them by torturing and killing Iraqis. We are in Iraq because we were attacked on 911, and 3000 innocent people were killed. The terrorists claimed to attack us as the result of our foreign policy in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia which they allege is killing and injuring them. And so on, and so on.

The republicans who justify the torture and murder of Iraqis are wrong as are those on DU justifying the beheading.

But, more importantly, how do we stop this spiral into endless violence? Who will be the first to rise above? How can we diffuse the situation so as to bring peace to this region and stop terrorism?

We need outside intervention. Now. Or we'll end up just like the Israeli's and the Palestinians, the middle eastern version of the Hatfields and the McCoys. Just with bigger weapons.

What a mess and a tragedy.

[Raven]

61. I don't know how we stop it...

short of getting Bush out of the WH. You are just right about the fact that nothing will be standing when we all get through with this. It is a terrible tragedy. We need to be measured here. I am up at this hour because I am sick to my stomach by what has happened...by what we have done and what they have done. I am ashamed of being an American...I am ashamed of my government. I am sick to my soul by all of this but when I come here, I want to see posts like yours...posts that invite talk and thought...a sane place to try to figure all of this out.

[TiredTexan]

75. Here's my essay on scandal fatigue............

if it helps...............

Scandal Fatigue

Is it just me, or have we gone down a rabbit hole into a truly unrecognizable America filled with Orwellian doublespeak, wars of choice, Nixonian secrecy and abuse of power, all playing out on the world’s stage while the media is sidetracked by trivia? Up is down, war is peace, saving our environment means destroying it, closing Saddam’s rape rooms and torture chambers means reopening them under new management, etc., et al., ad nauseum.

Bush’s “Shock and Awe” plan must be working. I’m suffering from scandal fatigue, dumbfounded by this administration and its supporters, by the media’s obsession with Kobe Bryant, Janet Jackson’s breast and Kerry’s medals, all while our democracy withers and our enemies hide in the shadows confidently planning the next terrorist attack.

The short list of the scandals of this administration and its allies is simply staggering, including: (1) outing a CIA operative for revenge on her whistle-blower husband, (2) creating and spinning intelligence to justify attacking a country with WMDs so dangerous that administration officials predicted a “cakewalk,” (3) failing to plan for the aftermath of the invasion and allowing Iraq to deteriorate into chaos resulting in the deaths of almost 800 American soldiers, (4) ignoring nine months of increasingly urgent warnings from counter-terrorism experts prior to 911 including explicit warnings of hijackings, (5) threatening to fire a governmental actuary if he revealed that the Medicare drug bill would cost $130 billion higher than the administration said it would, (6) gutting 40 years of environmental protections through secret executive fiat, (7) hacking into and pilfering Senate Democratic computer files, and (8) offering bribes and threats to change Medicare drug bill votes while holding open the vote on the floor of the House for three hours in the dark of the night.

And now this. This most recent monstrosity. We, the people of the United States, through our Department of Defense, are torturing, murdering and raping prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan, and paying private contractors wages of $300,000 (or more) a year to assist in doing it. We are the new architects of death camps, of genocide and rape. My money paid for this. Yours did too.

Was it just last week that Bush reminded us that the “Mission Accomplished” banner and speech were justified as the result of us catching Saddam and closing the rape rooms and torture chambers? Was it just last week that Solicitor General Theodore Olsen argued to the Supreme Court that the executive branch needed no oversight on the handling of “enemy combatants” because they could be trusted not to abuse them? Was it just five years ago that the Republicans argued that the supremacy of the “rule of law” was so important that it required the impeachment of Clinton because he lied about consensual sex?

Where are the Republican cries for enforcement of the rule of law now? Felony bribes, war crimes, abuse of power, lying to Congress, and nothing but silence.

While Bush fiddles, everything America means to the world, to its citizens, immolates. The media rushes to report on any fire but the true conflagration. Anyone who protests is “playing politics” or a “Bush hater.” Blind loyalty to Bush and his party has created a personality cult that defies truth, logic or reason, and remains impervious to any consideration of the rule of law, fundamental fairness, danger, the lessons of history, or even a minimal sense of self-preservation. Our civil rights are trampled and our moral high ground sinks below sea level into hegemony. We have created millions of new terrorists in the blink of an eye with our war of choice and its aftermath of torture chambers. And we have alienated the vast majority of the friends and allies who could have helped us win it.

It is my sad prediction that this administration will be studied by historians and politicos for years to come as the seminal case on hubris and its progeny. Shakespeare could not have written a better tragedy, a more strident morality play, than the one unfolding before us. I shudder and pray for my children and grandchildren who must live (and die) with the results of this folly. Perhaps I’m too dramatic. I really, really, hope so. But history, not I, will be the judge.

[Occulus]

37. It is my understanding

that the recent beheading of the 26-year-old contractor, on the video linked to elsewhere on this site, was in direct response the the torture at Abu Ghraib (sp?). If so, then yes, in a way we ARE culpable. Rather, the American torturers are culpable.

Let me be very, very specific: if this beheading was in response to the torture in the prison, and it is my understanding that it is, then it is the torturers and the superiors to them who gave the orders that are culpable in this tragic murder, as well as the executioners themselves. Because we are there in the first place, collectively, we all could be said to be responsible.

I'll not go that far, but this man need not have lost his life, and our forces are indeed partly to blame.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[0rganism]

110. The Grovelbot has no Sense of Irony, I see (n/t)

(nothing/to/say)

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. There isn't any defense of any murder on either side

How many nameless Iraqis have been murdered? We will never get the details of their lives.

By all accounts, Mr. Berg choose to go to Iraq. Nobody forced him to go. He must have known the risks. It is very sad that Iraq has become such an impossibly dangerous place.

[Cronus Protagonist]

80. Shhhhhh you'll spoil all the fun!

If you point that out, there won't be anything to complain about and well, that wouldn't be as much fun.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Cleita]

47. There's been so much cyber shell shock over the events of

the past week that it's causing people to say irrational, paranoid and painful things. It seems there is no end to the nightmarish events unfolding. I have noticed what seems almost desparate words and unkind things being said because of the horror we have had to absorb since this ill-fated attack for nothing by a sociopath and his greedy enablers.

[salin]

59. was thinking the along similar lines

that folks process the horrors in different ways and the past few days have been sending far too numerous horrors.

The beheading of a live man... on videotape... leaves me disgusted, and horrified.

I did do the mental exercise of trying (briefly) to compare (mentally) "barbarities"... the beating to death of prisoners vs the beheading. The beheading won - though not by much. Then among the many articles I have printed up recently, I read that one of the dead from the prison had been what sounded like a knife wound or slit from groin to chin. Is one worse than the other? Why bother trying to play the measuring up game... instead just mourn, and for me, pray for some kind of resolution that stops this cycle of vengeful, self-righteous sadistic behavior that leads to countless atrocities.

All that said - that was part of my personal journey in trying to mentally sort through all of the awful information. I cut some slack to others recognizing that they, too, are trying to find a way to cope with these awful/horrendous turn of events.

[maggrwaggr]

49. Hmm! Sounds like somebody watched a nasty snuff video!

and you're having exactly the reaction that the people who made the tape want you to have.

Ramp up the hatred several notches. EXCELLENT!

[hunter]

54. Go help HEyHEY garden or something...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1126046

That's what I do whenever the world gets really ugly. I garden.

[Raven]

67. Is that the same as saying "go to your room"?

Are you telling me I should stay in the Lounge??? Am I getting defensive or what! :-)

[Eureka]

70. No but maybe you should be

someone up there is trying to 'out' Will, called him a drama queen even, and said something about the.... get this... theatre. :-)

Peace!

[WilliamPitt]

72. Drama Queen, only seventeen, call me the Drama Queen

You can dance...

Oh never mind.

:)

[Eureka]

76. Hey, in the lead up to Eurovision too

how very apt :-)

[tkmorris]

107. You can't do that

Abba references are verboten, isn't that in the DU ruleset somewhere?

:evilgrin:

[hunter]

83. Argghhhhh!

This retired pirate can't keep up with the madness.

Come and go as you please, Raven. You live here!

[Raven]

91. Thanks for your permission!

Just givin' it to ya. :-)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. The problem with the video is that we don't really know who filmed it...

...nor do we know exactly where it was being filmed. The only thing we know for sure is that it was Berg that was being killed.

Do you also believe that Al Qaeda/Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the events of 911? Did you also know that there is no hard evidence linking the events of 911 with Al Qaeda/Bin Laden?

Here's another way to look at the events of 911 and the Berg video...who stood to gain the most from both events?

Think about that for a while.

[Djinn]

63. where to start the response to this inane thread

I havn't seen a single person "defending" the murder of Berg.

As for "suggesting that Americans are as bad or worse than these sub-humans" how exactly would you categorise the rape and murder of inmates who were more than likely picked up "by accident"???

How would characterise the MASS graves in Fallujah?, how non barbaric is blowing up homes where children live, leaving their bodies spread across a street for their parent's to gather???

And in a more historical note - how would charactarise the Phoenix psycho's in Vietnam? or the killings in Panama?

"If some of you think that you could express your vaulted opinions in a country run by the barbarians who slaughtered Berg without getting your precious throat cut, well, I'll buy you the airline ticket...one way."

mmm not quite sure what country you're referring to? if it's Iraq well don't we keep getting told it's a "free" country now? or maybe you'er referring to Afghanistan which we also appaerntly "freed" because the official story is that Berg was executed by Al Qaeda nutjobs - they don't actually RUN any countries if you beleive what you're being told...and if you DON'T believe all you're told why get so huffy when people have expressed doubts about the official "Berg" story?

As for "more barbaric" - we've now killed 10,000 Iraqi civilians - if we stay as long as Saddam did we'll more than match his grand total (especially given many counts of Saddam's victims include those lost during war)

Haunt our dreams - sorry can't stop laughing at that one

[Raven]

86. Well, when someone starts a response with the word "inane"

I guess we're not really talking about a dialogue here, are we. You have pretty much come out and proved my point. Which is, let's debate who is more barbaric...us or them. I guess I'd give it a tie, but you would probably argue with that. And as to the country which might not be so tolerent of your ideas, I don't know...you pick it...I think you know my point.

[Djinn]

96. Because of course YOUR original post

was so reasoned and well argued. and actually YOU started with the barbarism comparisons - try re-reading your post

as for the "go to another country" your point was the country run by the people who killed Berg - IF those people are who they're supposed to be there isn't such a country. THAT was your point - feel free to change it when your hysterical delusion wears off - you know the haunting people's dreams bit was a tad OTT

[nomaco-10]

92. Thank you Djinn for a truthful, rational...

reply to this over the top piece of histrionic crap.

I'm with you, I haven't seen one post on this board today that seemed even close to jubilation over the death of Nick Berg, thanks for setting that straight. As for conspiracy theories, of course they abound. What are we supposed to do, believe the Pentagon and the war criminals running the White House? I'll go with the links and opinions posted here over CNN and Faux news anyday.

Being threatened with "haunting my dreams" is just about more than I can bear at this point, especially just when I thought I'd heard it all.

edited for a spelling error, the content of this post was unchanged.

[SoCalDem]

64. I refuse to watch it, or open the threads .... I have a 26 yr old son

and I cannot even imagine the trauma and grief of his family.. I know how 26 yr olds are.. he probably thought this would be the adventure of a lifetime.. :cry:..

Bush has ushered in an era of death, doom and depravity.. He set the tone, and others suffer for it all..

Just sad all around.. :(

[demgrrrll]

87. I feel the same way. I have what is now a foggy misty memory of

better times, times when I felt hopeful and felt like
anything was possible. I remember, corny as it may sound,
the man from Hope. I don't know what the hell this is.
Death, destruction, mayhem. I too lay all of it at Bush's doorstep.
I feel so sorry for the Berg family. The bottom line is that NONE
of this was necessary. I can't begin to imagine their grief.

[wtmusic]

88. More barbaric than we are, huh?

Test: what's more barbaric, cutting someone's head off, or firing a cruise missile from 600 mi away and blowing up two houses and the families inside?

Nobody's condoning their actions. Personally, however, I think the fuss about Berg's death is ludicrous in light of the fact that we've murdered forty thousand of their young men in the last year. You just didn't get a grisly picture of it, that's all. And there's a good reason for it.

[Raven]

94. The "fuss" about Berg's murder??

Berg's murder was pretty awful. And why, pray tell, don't I get the "grisly picture of it all" and what the "good reason" for that?

[wtmusic]

97. So was Berg's murder more awful because you saw it?

You don't get the grisly pictures of our atrocities there because the DOD doesn't allow them and doesn't provide them. That's the good reason.

[Jim Warren]

113. good question but no answer

[LeahMira]

142. Another war story for you...

Robert Jay Lifton tells it in his book, Destroying the World to Save It: Aum Shinrikyo, Apocalyptic Violence, and the New Global Terrorism.

It happens back in the first Gulf War. Another soldier, a nice guy, someone's son, someone who had been decorated, one who was totally loyal, disciplined military, ready to fight for the country, was assigned to ride on the front of the vehicle that shoveled bodies into a mass grave. His job was to shoot anyone on the ground who still managed to move. That young soldier was Timothy McVeigh.

I think that is what you aren't "getting."

Another story. Not a war story exactly. It's the May 12th 1996 conversation between Madeline Albright and the 60 Minutes reporter Lesley Stahl. Stahl asked Albright in reference to the sanctions then in place against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died...I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And—and you know, is the price worth it?" Albright, responded: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price—we think the price is worth it."

I think that is what you aren't "getting."

Another story. Not a war story exactly. In an interview with Talk magazine, writer Tucker Carlson described Bush mimicking Carla Fay Tucker's final plea for her life. "Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "Don’t kill me."

I think that is what you aren't "getting."

No one is minimizing the barbarism of those men who slaughtered Mr. Berg and videotaped the whole thing. No one.

What people are, I think, trying to say is that it isn't some sort of penultimate barbarism. Americans, collectively and individually, are capable of terrible barbarism. We are horrified by the barbarism we see in others, but we excuse or rationalize or somehow explain away our own barbarism.

And, as it did with Timothy McVeigh, if we don't stop it, it will eventually eat us alive.

[specimenfred1984]

93. Wonder Who's Working the 2004 GOP Convention?

I'm sure it's a great bunch of people (NOT)! And hey, what's wrong with a guy heading over to an illegally invaded country to cash in on no-bid contracts via a hypocritical and torturing Christian occupation of a Muslim country?

I know people in Iraq and whenever I've mentioned that to republicans they say "so, he knew the risks when he signed up"! Except that he didn't, he signed up for reinlistment a year before * was selected, thinking he'd be staying here in the U.S..

My point is that the Berg who died probably could have cared less about any democrat simply because of the bigoted reasons all republicans have for hating any non-repub so, although his death was brutal, why should any democrat care that another bigot came to a tragic end?

Where's the moral high ground in defending sleezeballs who'd profit from your or anybody elses downfall? I see it just the opposite way: if we can't make fun of a person who backs a treasonous fake prez and then tries to cash in on it, who can we make fun of?

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Delano]

100. You're kinda right

I'm a little uncomfortable with how quick some here have jumped to blame the US for committing this act. In the environment we live in, however, it's no wonder people get a bit paranoid about everything.

There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder. Simply no defense. The people who have posted...suggesting that Americans are as bad or worse than these sub-humans, have absolutely nothing in common with me and I will not be associated with them by sharing this web site with them.

The problem with this statement is that some Americans ARE that bad. Were the people who did this American? Doubtful, but there most certainly are some Americans evil and ruthless enough to do this. And there are certainly plenty of Al Qaeda who are equally evil. At this point I find the Al Qaeda hypothesis more believable.


There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder or the murder of a journalist, which happened in the same barbaric way...months before the abuse of Iraqis by American troops was known.

This is also tricky. As disgusted as I am by all of this, I can't forget that we are the illegal invaders there, and that we killed thousands of civilians, and were NOT liberators, as the country was not occupied. I can't imagine that we would be much nicer to an invading army, no matter how benevolent they claimed to be.

There is no defense of this latest barbaric execution no matter how much one hates George W. Bush.

I don't hate him. Objectively, he is the worst president we've ever had, and illegitimate, but I don't hate him. Annexing Iraq was a foolish move. Many people tried to tell him that this would happen, including his own father, but he didn't care. I have seen no indication thus far that he cares much about anything.

There is also no defense of the joking, confabulating, snickering and conspiracy theorizing that has gone on here tonight. No defense at all.

Again, we are living under the most corrupt and ruthless regime this country has ever seen. I wouldn't put anything past them, but I insist on solid evidence, not speculation. But I understand why people feel that way.

If some of you think that you could express your vaulted opinions in a country run by the barbarians who slaughtered Berg without getting your precious throat cut, well, I'll buy you the airline ticket...one way.

The word is vaunted, and that's not the issue here. The issue is who did the crime. It was most likely Al Qaeda, but that is by no means a proven fact. There are, by the way, quite a few countries in the world with more freedom of press & expression than the US.

There is a way of seeing right from wrong...of holding ones' country accountable...of holding ones' country's leaders accountable, without condoning the actions of people who are more barbaric (if that is possible, and it is) than we are.

You are coming at this from the premise that Al Qaeda are more barbaric than we are. In general, that's true, but there is a seedy underside to this country and its government, people who would do ANYTHING to further their agenda. Have you ever heard of operation northwoods? That isn't tinfoil hat stuff, it's fact - declassified by the government and made public. You should google it sometime. Don't you remember that white lady who drowned her two boys in her truck and blamed it on "some black guy" - and later they found she'd done it herself and made the whole thing up to cover her own crime? If an AMERICAN woman could do that to her own children, couldn't there be people in the gov't sick enough to do it to a stranger? Again, I'm not making accusations, just pointing out that this is entirely within the realm of possibility.

Keep it up, guys and gals, and you will do more to get Bush reelected than any RW pac...Rove loves it and he wants more of your sick, destructive bullshit. He's counting on you.

This is your best point. Expounding endless conspiracy scenarios prematurely with little evidence makes us look bad. I have no problem with somebody saying "the military didn't act on 9-11" or "Bush let the Bin Ladens leave the country after 9-11" because those are facts. Facts that raise disturbing questions. But when someone says "The CIA demolished the WTC with explosives, because the photos look funny", I get a bit skeptical.

Having said the above, I'll retract one thing...I won't leave here...I'll stay around...maybe I'll join a truth squad here...maybe I'll just haunt your dreams.

You should stay. We need voices of rationality to bring down the more hysterical among us. But you would be wise to keep a somewhat open mind, and not automatically assume our government is automatically innocent of everything. It has committed heinous crimes against its citizens before, and there is no reason to assume that it never will again.

[wtmusic]

101. a thoughtful response

:thumbsup:

[stickdog]

104. Yes, Rove is counting on us ...

to unquestioningly buy whatever he's selling.

That much is certain. Is it not?

[Selwynn]

105. There is no defense for EITHER their OR our atrocity.

What I find most offensive are people who attempt to make others feel guilty for continuing to demand that the US be accountable for its own unspeakable, horrific acts of torture.

I'd like you to specifically name five people out of the thousands and thousands registered here who are actually saying that Berg's murder was right. Common - name me five.

I have news for you son, it turns out we ARE as bad as these so-called sub-human. What I've seen in the last week only proves to me that we're just as capable of as much sub-humanity as the next guy. Do we really want to get into a context of whose torture-dick is bigger than whose? Well, hacking off a limb is worse than stripping a guy naked, tying a leash around his neck, and dragging him through the prison while dogs attack him and he screams in terror? Isn't there some level at which it just becomes all bad? It's it slightly ludicrous to actually stand by the defense that it's not "as bad" as something else?

And what is it with you, who don't think that we are capable of being both horribly heartbroken and furious at the heinous acts of these terrorists and ALSO horribly heartbroken and furious at the heinous acts of our fellow Americans committing acts of terror? Why is it so surprising to you that the torture committed by our own country in some ways even more devastating? It's not that one thing is better or worse than another - its that we were supposed to be different. I loathe and mourn Berg's murder, but in the back of my mind, I expect this kind of action from terrorist. As realistic as I thought I was about the terrible and tragic state of our country, I still had to admit to myself yesterday what I did not expect it from us.

Torture and terror is a category, not a stepladder of comparative superlatives. What the US has done, and what these enemies of the US have done are both terror, both horrific, both heartbreaking and both appalling. It is offensive in the extreme to GLOSS OVER the massive inhumanity and suffering caused at the hands of the US by pretending that its "no big deal" in comparison to another mans murder. There is very little that is more offensive than that.

I am capable of being both outraged and this man's death and outraged at our own brutal treatment of these people. People who act like somehow its OK or "not as bad" that we turned into terrorists (that's what torture is about - creating terror) because the people we were torturing were "sub-human" fail to realize that its not about them - its about us. It's about what America claims (almost unbelievably these days) to be. It's about the fact that we were supposed stand apart from the "evil" people we're fighting and stand for something greater, more noble, more integritous - where words like honor, truth, and justice ring loud and clear. It's hard not to see what has been happening, not just in these cases of torture but in the whole horrible disaster that is the Iraqi occupation, as direct refutation to all of those claims.

So - no, I will not stop keeping the issue of US torture front and center. Because, we should expect it from the terrorists - its still horrible and angering when it happens, but we should expect it. We should all - every American citizen - feel F U R I O U S and A S H A M E D that we have stopped to that level, and repent (take the term either religiously or secularly) of what our government has done, what our individual solders did, and what part many of us the people in the United State have played in allowing this to happen, via their politics.

[DemExpat]

106. I may not buy all of the conspiracy theories yet, but one thing I DO

know is that people are people, and Americans are NO better, or no worse, than others.

Being the only superpower makes them worse at this time in history, however .....IMHO.


Perhaps the disillusion about America and Americans is what is hurting you the most now, Raven. :hug:

It is ALL so horrifying. :cry:

DemEx

[Ksec]

108. God forbid we ever show emotion

It will be mischaracterised as did the original poster. I saw nothing even close to what you said so STFU

[JNelson6563]

115. sub-humans, that's a nazi term

I wonder how sub-human you would become if a nation invaded our country to usurp our natural resources, imprisoned our people, slaughtered tens of thousands of us, rapedour women and committed other atrocities. Especially if it were a nation who wrongly convinced its people we had launched a horrid attack on them (9/11).

Your self-righteousness would be easier to swallow if you hadn't gone so far as to use the term sub-human. This bespeaks a horrorible things of you.

Julie

[Kickin_Donkey]

116. I have seen no post on DU ...

defending the murder of Nick Berg.

There have been something like 20,000 other deaths in Iraq, and you come apart at the seams over ONE because you happened to have seen it in awful, graphic detail?

I'm not in any way justifying the killing Berg, but ALL 20,000 deaths were awful. Get over yourself.

We're supposed to suspend skepticism on this one event and take it at face value? The Bush regime and the corporate media have lied about everything connected with this war. It would be foolhardy not to question things.

If you can't handle DU emotionally, maybe you should head on over to the knitting forum. We don't need hysterics like this.

[Bridget Burke]

117. What's the need for a new thread on this topic?

Paragon started one with: "I can think of nothing more horrifying than what happened on that videotape.

"Creating conspiracy theories about said event and posting them on a message board in the name of the Democratic Party doesn't come close, either. But it's still nauseating.

"Knock it the fuck off."

Why didn't you just add a "me too" post to this very succinct statement?

I have seen no jubilation in any of the threads about the beheading. Many people here are just taking a closer look at the official story.
The "love it or leave it" message was really cute in a retro sort of way--I remember the 60's, too.

And please expand about the truth squad.

[Vladimir]

118. Sub-humans??

That is the same lanuage that the now deceased Sir John Peel MP took when defending, in 1959, the massacre of 11 Mau-Mau in a British camp in Kenya:

"There are obvious risks in dealing with desperate and sub-human individuals."

Interesting how 45 years on non-whites still get regarded in the same way by some people. :puke:

[revcarol]

119. Raven, we've always respected your opinion.

You certainly have a point. This whole board has gone crazy and many are using this for political purposes, and this is despicable.

I have not had time to follow the various conspiracy theories, but I remember one thing: I remember when three civil rights workers were released from a jail and their murderers had been informed about their release and were waiting for them.

So call me a conspiracy nut,but it is not only possible but may indeed be likely that some Americans wanted to get the heat off American soldiers for the torture, and just spread the word that he was some kind of monster who deserved punishment.

[Q]

120. Perhaps your problem is that you consider this a 'home'?

- I saw many threads yesterday that seemed 'questionable' at best. I chose not to open them. You could have chosen that option as well.

- And I doubt very much that anything posted on DU will get Bush* "reelected'. What WILL get him 'reselected' is the left's inability to organize and expose this most criminal government.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

127. ohhh toto, i don't think we're in kansas anymore

[ramblin_dave]

122. On last night's truthout overview, Will Pitt said

that there are many "strange angles to this story" and then listed much of what was discussed here. Stuff that one might call conspiracy theorizing. Will ended by saying there's "a lot more to this story".

I agree that any joking about this murder is out of line. But I don't see why refusing to accept this event at face value is a problem. We have been lied to so much about the Iraq war and other things that it is to be expected that questions would be asked.

[Raster]

123. nothing, absolutely nothing that comes from this administration...

...thought, word or deed--NOTHING--can be taken at face value or trusted without independent verification. And then one must question the verificator(s). This administration spins webs better than any arachnid.

And thanks to DU we have a forum to discuss, to differ, to examine, to commiserate, to grieve and to proclaim.

We, as progressives believe that there is no justification to the torture, violence and murder, no matter who is the perpetrator. It's all wrong. On a religions note, neither Christianity, Islam nor Judaism advocate or endorse torture and murder of innocents.
There is no justification.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

125. I think it's counter-productive to get upset at the views of others.

We're a broad church. Some people make comments that I could never agree with, but their foolishness does not change how I feel about the site. Let people hang themselves with what they say, if they will, but don't extrapolate their remarks onto DU as a whole.

[redqueen]

126. Don't know about the joking and snickering

I didn't see that going on but I'm not around at night. I'm wondering what you mean by 'confabulating' and why it's a problem. I also don't see any problem with conspiracy theorizing. :shrug:

One thing though, to say that something happened 'months before the abuse of Iraqis by American troops was known' is a bit of a stretch. Sure, it wasn't known to us, we're half a world away. The people of Iraq, though - different story. We don't know what they knew or when they knew it.

[Catherine Vincent]

128. Yet another that watched the video and couldn't take it.

Next time, don't click on the link!

[todwest]

130. Moral Equivalency

I agree with you, Raven, that there is no way to justify the murder of Berg or Pearl.

I'll go you one better, though: All murder is evil. It is wrong to murder helpless civilians -- on both sides -- it is wrong to use a nation's young men and women as pawns in an illegal -- yes, illegal -- war, and it's wrong to label a culture as "barbaric" simply because they have values which we find abhorrent or cannot understand, especially as many of our values are equally abhorrent to them.

I encourage you to look up the term "cultural relativism." Right after you get done looking up "moral equivalency."

[bloom]

131. If the beheading is barbaric, and it is

What is the word for using billions/trillions? dollars worth of high-tech equipment to decimate a country?

I don't think we have a proper word that begins to describe the horror that is being done in our names and with tax dollars - carried out by our sons and daughters, relatives, friends & neighbors.

And it is so opposite of barbaric when it is so organized and technically advanced. So much effort and thought and power and will has gone into what the US has done.


What is the word for it?

[indigo32]

135. I can't think of the right word for what you describe

It is horrible. BUT.... I can be outraged at both.

[Skittles]

132. don't let some ninnies get you down, Raven

like it or not DU is a BIG TENT. I agree with you that like the prison photos, the Berg video is indefensible, a sickening display of inhumanity.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rbnyc]

138. I'm glad you're not leaving.

Sometimes I'm surprised at the things that get said here. And sometimes I'm not so surprised, but it doesn't make me feel good. But there is a wide range of voices here, and we need yours.

[DrWeird]

139. I wish you'd just go ahead and leave.

"There is no defense of Berg's barbaric murder. Simply no defense. The people who have posted on DU suggesting that there is, suggesting that Americans are as bad or worse than these sub-humans, have absolutely nothing in common with me and I will not be associated with them by sharing this web site with them. "

This is some racist bullshit and you owe everybody an apology.

[JohnLocke]

143. How is that racist? WTF?

[LeahMira]

141. Is anyone DEFENDING them?

There is also no defense of the joking, confabulating, snickering and conspiricy theorizing that has gone on here tonight. No defense at all.


It is a sad state of affairs when the people of this country can't trust their government to be totally honest, but that's what it seems to have come to.

I'm not sure just what you're talking about re: snickering or joking, but sometimes black humor is a way of coping.

No one is defending the people who decapitated Mr. Berg. No one.

At the same time, I personally am not going to censor myself out of any sort of concern about what the likes of Mr. Rove might do with anything I say. I think that's a losing game. If I said nothing but the Lord's Prayer all day long, Rove could manage to make something of it.


If some of you think that you could express your vaulted opinions in a country run by the barbarians
who slaughtered Berg without getting your precious throat cut, well, I'll buy you the airline
ticket...one way.

Well, that's not a very attractive proposal from you... but then again, freedom is not something that someone else gives you. Freedom is something you already have. They can take your life, but no one can take your freedom away from you.