Oswald totally perfectly aimed that bullet into the back of Kennedy's head

[TheWizardOfMudd]

which made Jack's head get knocked backwards and the top of the head fly behind JFK. And with a shitty rifle incapable of such a strike to boot!

I had squirrels in my attic, once. Literally, not figuratively. I bought a high-powered pump pellet pistol and went hunting. Interesting thing was that when I shot a squirrel almost point blank in the face, it went backwards; not forward and toward me.

And when Inhofe and right-wing radio begin to decry how much more horrible than us Hussein and terrorists are when an alleged Al Quaeda video depicting the beheading of an American comes out at the same time and used as justification for a link between Iraq and bin Laden, I weep for those squirrels. I should have found a more humane way to rid my attic of the infestation.

[Dookus]

1. your name is well-chosen

I have no idea what your point is.

[QC]

3. I think the lesson we're supposed to take from this

is that since some conspiracy theories have turned out to be true, then they *all* must be true. At least that seems to be the point.

[Dookus]

4. Which conspiracy theory has turned out to be true?

certainly not the JFK assassination one. I don't know of any new evidence that indicates Oswald was not the killer.

[QC]

7. But to a true conspiracy afficianado, lack of evidence is itself

proof of just how fiendishly clever the conspirators are, since they destroyed all the evidence!

Having said that, I do believe that there is such a thing as conspiracies. It's hard to deny, for example, that what happened in Florida in 2000 was coordinated. But I do not think that the reality of conspiracy means that all conspiracy theories are true.

My problem with the theories being thrown around tonight is not that I don't think that our government would do something like this, but that the "evidence" being presented is so abysmally stupid--the business about fat white guys who don't have "Arab mannerisms" and all that. As another poster said, it seems to be based on the idea that everyone in the Middle East is scrawny, brown, and barefooted.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

15. Read again, please. You dig?

Here's what I said:

My problem with the theories being thrown around tonight is not that I don't think that our government would do something like this, but that the "evidence" being presented is so abysmally stupid--the business about fat white guys who don't have "Arab mannerisms" and all that.

Which you somehow rendered as:

"I don't think that our government would do something like this..."

No, I'm not particularly naive, but you do seem to be a bit dishonest, mangling a quote in order to make it appear to mean the opposite of what it clearly says.

[Merlin]

19. My bad. Misread it. Sorry. But don't tar us all with such a broad brush.

The "'evidence' being presented" that you suggest is the core assertion of those arguing that this MAY be a covert ops piece is simply the ramblings of a few.

As my post describes, there is real reason for concern here that a scenario similar to the one I outlined has taken place.

We don't know the answer yet.

[Merlin]

11. That's simply because you have examined none of the evidence.

What's amazing is that some of the most powerful evidence is right there in the first post.

Or maybe you just don't read?

[w13rd0]

5. No...

...that's nonsense. "Since some conspiracy theories have turned out to be true, summarily dismissing a theory as a conspiracy is no guarantee that it isn't true." Theories must be tested and explored, proven or disproven.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Self-deleted

Glad you posted this. Now I won't have to wonder about you.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

6. Okay, try this

Oswald totally perfectly aimed that bullet into the back of Kennedy's head, which made Jack's head get knocked backwards and the top of the head fly behind JFK. And with a shitty rifle incapable of such a strike to boot!

I had squirrels in my attic, once. Literally, not figuratively. I bought a high-powered pump pellet pistol and went hunting. Interesting thing was that when I shot a squirrel almost point blank in the face, it went backwards; not forward and toward me.

And when Inhofe and right-wing radio begin to decry how much more horrible than us Hussein and terrorists are when an alleged Al Quaeda video depicting the beheading of an American comes out at the same time and used as justification for a link between Iraq and bin Laden, the air is suddenly filled with the whizzing sound of invisible bullets.

I weep for the squirrel hunters.

[Dookus]

8. your point isn't any clearer...

First, you make the assumption that Oswald TRIED to make Kennedy's head jerk a certain way. That's false. You then assert that his rifle was incapable of such a shot. Also false.

What this has to do with squirrels, I have no idea.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

9. I'll rewrite tomorrow

I appreciate your criticism.

[Merlin]

14. Hey guys, are you a tag team?

Just wondering.

[tom_paine]

44. More than a Tag Team lately. Have you noticed?

There must be an entire wing of pimple-faced 23-year-old Senior High Grand Middle Eastern "Experts" down in the basement of the Olin Foundation carrying this out, don;t you think?

As ERlection time approaches they are getting more co-ordinated.

And the nonsense and Red Herrings are piled as deeply as Soviet Bullshit was in 1979.

Well done to the Olin Team.

[tinanator]

10. are you asserting that Oswald did it?

If so, that must make any other analysis somewhat futile.

[Merlin]

12. Aptly named, Dookus, wherein does he make such an assumption?

viz:
"First, you make the assumption that Oswald TRIED to make Kennedy's head jerk a certain way..."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. You obviously know nothing about Oswald, his rifle,...

...or the assassination of JFK.

Try again.

[OpSomBlood]

17. The Mauser rifle Oswald used was easily capable of the shots.

Whether he was the only shooter is debatable, but whether the shots from the depository were possible is not. I've seen several demonstrations of the exact scenario, and sharpshooters say it's not a very challenging shot at all.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. The FBI weapons experts refused to test-fire the weapon until repairs...

...had been made to correct the loose scope, a trigger that pulled normally until it unexpectedly became a hair-trigger causing the weapon to fire prematurely, and the cocking mechanism tended to stick while working it.

Additionally, are you also claiming that Arlen Spector's "Single Bullet Theory" is true...that while zigging and zagging it caused four wounds of entrance and three of exit in two grown men?

Apparently, you've fallen for the tv shows that have presented EXTREMELY slanted evidence supporting the Warren Commission propaganda. When you're using a rifle that has been well-cared for and is in perfect alignment, anything is possible, but I know two snipers from Vietnam...both with high kill counts...that will tell you point-blank that the feat was not only difficult but damn near impossible.

One more point...Oswald was NEVER placed in the 6th floor window by anyone but an individual at street level below the TSBD who claimed that he saw Oswald. They were also NEVER able to duplicate Oswald's alleged feat of leaving the sixth floor and appearing in the first floor lunch room not even breathing heavy when the officer saw him within 60 seconds of the assassination.

And how is it that Oswald's handprint was never found by the Dallas police, but the FBI somehow managed to find one after Oswald was already dead?

[OpSomBlood]

21. "Whether he was the only shooter is debatable"

I never endorsed the "single magic bullet" theory.

[jobycom]

42. "Magic bullet" travelled in a straight line

That's been proven by so many computer mockups based on Zapruder that I can't believe anyone can still argue otherwise. Look at the photos. Conally is in front of and slightly lower than Kennedy. No bullet hitting Kennedy in the back of the shoulder/neck could do anything other than strike Connally. If you claim that the wound in the lower throat wasn't from the same bullet, then you have to figure out how a shot hit him there without going through Connally or the windshield.

It's just silly. You can see on the tape that Connally is turning in his seat. You can see that the limo is lined up with the SBD window. I can see not understanding the bullet's route before the Zapruder film was discovered, but once it was, I can't imagine how anyone can deny it.

Three shots. First one missed, probably hitting the light or tree in the line of sight and fragmenting, part of it hitting the curb. Second shot hit a hunched over JFK (normally what you do when you hear a shot from behind). The bullet went through Kennedy;s shoulder, out his neck (hunch over, you'll see how it happened) into Connally and through him into his wrist. A straight line. The second shot followed closely on the first, the third took a moment longer, as Oswald settled downed, aimed as he was taught, and pulled the trigger.

THAT's what I see on Zapruder. A shot from the back. I don't see Zapruder spin, as he would have if a bullet had passed a foot from his head (where a shooter on the knoll would have had to be).

One gunman. He then walked down the stairs, pretended to get a Coke. He was found there by a cop who thought he looked so suspicious that he drew his gun on him (very rare, despite what you see on network tv).

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. A computer program is only as accurate as the designer wants it to be...

...it's really sad that so many people fell for that crap. JFK was shot in the upper back, nearly six inches below his the top of his collar, and not the back of the neck as those computer programs like to claim. Additionally, the wound in JFK's throat was one of ENTRANCE, not of exit...the medical personnel who removed JFK's shirt, tie, and coat at Parkland testified to that. The nicks in the aforementioned clothing were created by the scalpel used to cut away JFK's tie. Check the evidence for yourself.

If the "Magic Bullet" had really worked, Connally would have dropped his hat that he held in his right hand LONG before he did. You do remember that it was his right wrist that was supposedly shattered by that "Magic Bullet", don't you? Check the Zapruder film and see for yourself.

One more thing...did you know that experiments using the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to fire bullets into goat cadavers could NEVER duplicate the pristine appearance of the bullet that is claimed to have been the "Magic Bullet"? In fact, the so-called "Magic Bullet" is nearly identical to test rounds fired into cotten for ballistic testing.

[rsdsharp]

28. Some of what you say is catagorically false.

Just last week I watched a program on the History Channel about the conspiracy theorists issues with Oswald. One of the things they did was have a healthy male in his mid twenties follow the path from the sixth floor window, to where the rifle was found, down to the 2nd floor lunchroom. It took 47 seconds, and the guy wasn't winded. Oswald was seen within 90 seconds of the assassination, not 60, but even if the shorter time is correct, your assertion that the feat has never been duplicated is not true.

The same show duplicated the shots. The bolt did stick on several attempts, and there were failures to fire on others. But it did work on other occasions. As for the difficulty of the shots -- it was 80 yards max, with a target moving away at 11 mph in virtually a straight line from the shooter. The only thing that makes that difficult to any degree is the time frame, and the crappy rifle -- but it only had to work once.

The scope was misaligned, and the FBI did correct that before test firing. Presumably, however, Oswald was used to the scope, and may have even used the iron sights. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the trigger. I doubt you do either, frankly. The term hair trigger refers to one which requires very little effort to make the sear break -- usually less that 2 pounds total. What you seem to be describing is a trigger which has a normal pull weight, and then breaks cleanly. If a trigger has a pull weight of 4 pounds, 3.5 won't cause it to fire. An additional half pound of pressure will. That's not a hair trigger. The best triggers are described as breaking suddenly, like a glass rod. That's a good thing, as accuracy requires that a trigger break in a manner that somewhat surprises the shooter.

As for the hand print, it was found on the underside of the barrel -- which is usually covered by the stock. A palm print could easily have been left when the rifle was disassembled for cleaning (or transport). The question is whether the Dallas police dusted the underside of the barrel and found nothing. If so, that's a problem. If not, that's bad forensics.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Anybody can say anything they want on a television show, and...

...they can bend the available evidence in any direction they wish.

I take great offense to being called a liar, and unless I've missed something, that's exactly what you've done. Additionally, I find your post to be exceedingly condescending as well as personally insulting.

Before you respond to me on this or any other topic regarding the JFK assassination, I suggest that you spend about 30 years examining the FACTUAL evidence/data as I have. And thanks to the five years I spent in the military, I also bet that I know something about military weapons and how they work.

As far as someone "not knowing" what they're talking about, JFK's limo was NOT traveling in a straight line after it turned onto Elm Street as the television shows like to show. On November 22, 1963, JFK's limo was first curving to the left and then back to the right while dropping several feet. Go get a map of Dealey Plaza and check it out.

Thanks so much for the description of a "hair trigger"...I'm sure everyone enjoyed it very much. But, that's NOT how the trigger of LHO's alleged Mannlicher-Carcano rifle reacted when pulled. It was actually a two-stage effect, with a normal pull about 1/2 to 2/3 through the full movement of the trigger, combined with an unpredictable "hair trigger" in the final 1/2 to 1/3 of the full movement that caused the weapon to be fired unexpectedly.

As to the 47 second time spent by the individual in the television show, were the boxes in the sixth floor corner in the exact same places that they were on November 22, 1963? Was the rest of the sixth floor filled with boxes as it was on November 22, 1963? Did this individual spend any time at all trying to hide a rifle as Oswald is alleged to have done? And did this individual also have time to buy a soft drink and be drinking it when the officer came into the room? At what point did they start the timing of "Oswald's" escape? Was it immediately following the last shot, or did the person spend about 10-15 seconds at the window before leaving? Was there anyone at all at that sixth floor window?

And how did Oswald allegedly get the rifle into the TSBD? When disassembled, the longer piece cannot be carried in a brown bag between Oswald's cupped hand and his armpit as the Warren Commission states.

Here's more for you...did you know that Oswald had a CIA "201" personnel file? Did you know that he was a USMC radar operator when stationed at the Atsugi Air Force Base in Japan, and that his job was to track the incoming and outgoing flights of the U-2?

And just how did he get into and out of the old Soviet Union with no difficulty whatsoever? What was Oswald really doing in New Orleans other than establishing a supposed "link" between himself and the pro-Castro Cubans...and how come the pro-Castro brochures that he handed out on the city streets had actually been printed by a CIA printer?

Here's another tip for you...go spend some time studying the ACTUAL evidence collected by both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Then go read Harold Weisberg's excellent series of books on the JFK assassination, including "Case Open", his slam-dunk trashing of Gerald Posner's hugely misleading book "Case Closed".

And here's a last tip for you...find out what "Maggie's Drawers" signifies when applied to a Marine on the rifle range.

[Merlin]

22. The SHOTS. But not timing of the shots, or the accuracy with faulty site

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/FAULT.TXT

Some WC defenders point to the CBS television network's
reenactment of the assassination as proof that Oswald could have
shot Kennedy. The CBS rifle test was reported in the 1975
documentary THE AMERICAN ASSASSINS and was presented as evidence
of the WC's findings regarding the shooting. However, CBS's
reenactment failed to establish that Oswald could have done what
the WC said he did.

The CBS rifle test was not a realistic simulation of the
shooting feat attributed to Oswald. CBS used only expert
riflemen, but Oswald was an average marksman at best. Also, the
CBS test assumed the correctness of the single-bullet theory.
Therefore, the shooters were not required to load and fire their
second shot, or any shot, in less than two seconds. They should
have been asked to do so since the Zapruder film shows that the
first hit on Kennedy and the hit on Connally's back came only 1.6
to 1.8 seconds apart. Notes Carl Oglesby, "not even the fastest
of the CBS team of experts was able to reload and refire the
Mannlicher anywhere near that fast" (91).

Numerous Dealey Plaza witnesses said two of the shots were
fired in very rapid succession, nearly simultaneously (see, for
example, Menninger 249, 253, 278, 298, and Brown 92-93, 99, 115).
Some of these witnesses said the two shots were so close together
that they almost sounded like a single burst of two bullets from
an automatic weapon. No gunman, no matter how skilled, could
have fired the Carcano with that kind of speed, and, obviously,
the CBS shooters were not required to do so.

[OpSomBlood]

23. Mauser = Mannlicher

Sorry for the error.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Except. . .

. . .Oswald shooting grade in the marines was average. So, he wasn't a sharpshooter. The next question to ask is whether Oswald had the biophysical control to have pulled off those three shots in that time at a moving target when the target was the POTUS. This isn't a highly skilled military sharpshooter shooting at a crash test dummy. This is one guy, shooting at the POTUS, with one chance at success.

I think most of the test, like the ones to which you refer, are flawed in this fashion. I, for one, do not believe that a lone shooter from that perch, would have been that efficient, given the psychological aspects of the action.

And, i also don't believe that the shots recorded on the police radio are acoustically consistent with one shooter, three shots, all from behind. The HSCA report clearly supports at least 4, and maybe 5 shots. That, for me, has always validated the multiple shooter theory.

That being said, i've never seen any evidence to suggest that Oswald wasn't ONE of the shooters. He may have been set up to take the fall, but i do believe he was one of them.

I don't believe he took those three shots, and i don't believe he was a good enough marksman to hit that target under the circumstances. But, he only needed to be one out of three, and he probably could have done that. Guys who say that it's not that hard a shot are talking purely from a technical perspective. The idea that a lone shooter is trying to take out the POTUS puts the whole activity in the different light. Yes?
The Professor

[rsdsharp]

36. Saying Oswald was an average shot in the Marines

is like saying someone is an average big league ballplayer. In the real world, that means he's one hell of a player. It's also damning with faint praise. Oswald orginally qualified as a sharpshooter, missing expert by only 8 points. A qualification three years later, placed him at markman, with the minimum qualifying score. The difference is that he was in practice when he qualified as a sharpshooter, firing 2.5 times the number of rounds relative to the later qualification.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/anderson1.htm

In addition, although I can't prove it, it's likely that most of his dropped points were at ranges well in excess of 200 yards. Failing to be in the ten ring (or even the black) at 600 yards has nothing to do with one's ability to hit a target at 70.

There is testimony that Oswald was at the range before the assassination, and Marina said his dry firing (which substantially helps accuracy -- if it doesn't break the firing pin) nearly drove her crazy in the Spring of 1963, before his attempt on Walker.

As for the 4-5 shots on the police tape, subsequent analysis (after the HSCA investigation) shows that there is faint cross talk from another channel on the tape. It is of a broadcast that occured several minutes after the assassination, so the tape didn't record the shots.

I do agree with you about the biophysical problem. The firing position only makes real sense if he wanted a head on shot. I think its complicated by the fact that (at least in my opinion) Oswald fired the first shot without meaning to -- as the limo was making its turn, and missed. That would cause most people to panic. Still it only takes getting it "right" once.

[number6]

67. wrong

"is like saying someone is an average big league ballplayer. In the real world, that means he's one hell of a player. It's also damning with faint praise."

Marksmen, Sharpshooter, Expert,... I got Sharpshooter, was easy
anybody with basic shooting skills can get these, this is far
from sniper training....

"Saying Oswald was an average shot in the Marines"

is exactly right, Oswald was an average shot

if you, ve been in the military and qualified on the
range, you'd know this ...

[jobycom]

41. Here's the window, from the spot where JFK was hit

I don't know what biophysical feat it would have required. It's a straight on shot, he would have been looking straight out the window. You could make that shot with sights, without a scope.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. The major flaw in your argument is that the limo was moving...

...along Elm Street, first to the left after turning off of Houston Street, and then back to the right. The height of Elm Street above sea level was also gradually dropping by several feet from the highest point at the Houston Street intersection to the lowest point under the Triple Overpass. That is not an easy shot by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, yeah...one more point. The tree that stands below the sixth floor window of the TSBD was much taller on November 22, 1963, thus blocking the line of sight to the limo for a certain amount of time, and therefore limiting the amount of time any alleged shooter had to fire from that window. The picture you show in your post looks to have been taken quite a few years after the assassination.

[jobycom]

52. The car was moving in a line away from that window

at 11 mph. Actually, slower, probably, since the driver slowed down when the shooting began. The incline of the road is about the same as the angle of incline from the window. It's an easy sight.

The only easier sight would have been as the limo approached the building, but then Oswald would have been looking right into his face, and would have been directly in front of the SS guys. Too risky, too emotional.

Tracking from the knoll, now that would have been side to side. Much harder shot.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. You do know that a tree blocked part of the line of sight from...

...the sixth floor of the TSBD on November 22, 1963, don't you? So much for your "easier shot". You better check your math on the relative anges of Elm Street and the angle from the Sixth Floor window to the limo...those angles aren't even close.

Your second paragraph doesn't deserve a response. "Too emotional"?? Please, give me a break.

Firing from the Grassy Knoll was a much closer shot and was not "side to side" as you claim. The angle from the knoll was almost straight on, just a little left of center. Maybe you're confusing where Zapruder stood while filming the assassination with the actual location of the knoll itself behind the fenceline.

[jobycom]

65. Well, then none of your nonsense deserves a response either.

The tree would not have blocked the shot. It was fall. What happens to trees in the fall?

The rest is all the same old debunked crap I always hear, and your tone has gotten pigish, so piss off.

[number6]

64. try Mannlicher Carcano

not a Mauser

[jobycom]

32. Sounded like he got it exactly right

The FBI DID run tests with his rifle, contrary to popular opinion, and it was quite capable of hitting such a clear, easy target, and of being fired at least as fast and as accurately as would have been required, by agents who had no practice with the weapon.

The only thing wrong with the gun was that the scope was out of line, and the first tests that used the scope were off. When the agents sighted without the scope, they were dead on.

It was an easy shot. Those who claim it was hard have never been to the site, or aren't very good with guns, or are trying to sell something.

[truth2power]

18. Oswald didn't do it, IMHO.

I'm old ehough to remember the assassination of JFK. I didn't believe it then, and I don't believe it now. Whatever. No way to prove it.

Bringing it up to the present day, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past the scum currently in the WH.

[emad]

24. Zapruder footage = counter-intelligence.

The Cold War atrocity of JFK's murder has been systematically whitewashed over to protect the current BFEE WH incumbents.

Can't see it lasting much longer.

BTW, just WHY is Jackie see desperately trying to grab the piece of scull/scalp that falls onto the back of the limo? Any why do official records state that it was never retrieved for post mortem analysis purposes????

[onecitizen]

72. I don't think the poor woman..........

had any idea what had happened or what she was doing at that moment. I mean, can you imagine seeing parts of your husbands brain flying around you? I always kind of thought she was trying to get away from whoever was shooting. You know adrenalin and all?

[AP]

25. An aside: I read one of those Beschloss LBJ books, and it's pretty obvious

that LBJ wanted a whitewash of the JFK assassination investigation because he didn't want people calling for an invasion of Cuba or Russia if people started thinking it was a Russian spy who shot him. But, the fact is, LBJ must have known that the people really responsible for shooting JFK would evade detection thanks to the whitewash.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. IMHO, LBJ was one of those people that he hoped the Warren...

...Commission would help evade detection. Lots of questions about LBJ and his actions immediately following the assassination.

[AP]

27. By the simple test of 'who benefits and how much?' it definitely looks

like LBJ would be a suspect.

He represented the oil industry and media interests in TX, and the oil industry really got busy making the money and accumulating the political power after Kennedy was gone.

[jobycom]

Proving he benefitted doesn't prove he did it

The oil industry will jump immediately on any advantage that presents itself, whether they caused it or not.

And EVERY politician from Texas benefits from the oil industry, whether they want to or not. Scratch any dollar in Texas, and you'll find oil.

[AP]

33. I didn't say that. I just said it puts him on the list of suspects.

[jobycom]

38. Only evidence puts him on the list of suspects

My mom benefitted. Actually, she lived a block from Oswald in New Orleans, and dated a Cuban who returned to Cuba to fight for Castro. That's as much evidence as there is against LBJ. Neither are on my lists until I see something resembling evidence. Innuendo is easy to create.

[AP]

39. No, evidence is what you collect after you've put someone on your list

of suspects.

[jobycom]

43. Only if you are Bush or the LAPD

Doing it your way is how we wind up with 20% of the people in jail innocent of the crimes they are convicted of.

[AP]

51. Doing it your way means a lot of guilty people go free...

...because investigators never followed a logical hunch regardless of whether there was any direct or circumstantial evidence.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. You evidently don't read very well or you're just trying to pick a fight..

...LBJ's actions just prior to, during, and after the JFK assassination place him squarely on the suspects list. Let's take a look at a few things, shall we?

Prior to:

1. Six months prior to the assassination, Ladybird Johnson bought a large amount of shares in both Bell Helicopter and General Dynamics. Both companies profited enormously during the Vietnam War, as did their shareholders. The Johnsons had been worth about $200,000 when LBJ became president...by the time he left office in 1968, they were worth about $6 million.

2. LBJ had a shouting arguement with JFK the night before the Dallas motorcade about the seating arangements in the motorcade. LBJ wanted Gov. Connally with him in his car, and Sen. Yarbrough in JFK's car. Connally was one of LBJ's strongest political allies in the conservative branch of the Democratic Party, and Yarbrough was his political enemy. LBJ did not get his way, but he did manage to see that the Secret Service car was placed BETWEEN his limo and JFK's limo in the motorcade.

3. LBJ was a late arrival at a get-together at one of his Big Oil buddies' place. Also in attendence were J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, several other Big Oil owners, a few former CIA people, and some military types. When LBJ arrived, all of the men retired to a closed-door meeting. Later that evening, LBJ confided to a very close friend that "We won't have to worry about JFK after tomorrow".

During the day of the assassination:

1. Took the oath of office before AF One even left Dallas, and Jackie Kennedy was basically told she had to attend. Most feel that this was an attempt to rub Jackie's nose in the fact that she was no longer the First Lady.

After the assassination:

1. LBJ signed NSAM 273 on November 26, 1963, escalating the Vietnam War. This NSAM reversed an earlier NSAM signed by JFK that began pulling the first 1,000 troops of 17,000 out of Vietnam.

2. LBJ established the Warren Commission very soon after the assassination by hand-picking the commissioners, starting with Chief Justice Earl Warren. The hope was to pin the assassination on Oswald as a "lone-nut", and attempt to quell the conspiracy questions that were already being raised.

Circumstantial evidence of LBJ being part of a conspiracy, but evidence nonetheless.

[jobycom]

63. Anecdotes with a thousand interpretations

So LBJ didn't like JFK. That's not evidence.

So they argued about seating order in the motorcade. Protocol is always a hot topic. Yarborough didn't want to sit by LBJ, either, and the issue was not settled until the next day, when LBJ grabbed Yarborough and pulled him into the car with him.

LBJ was sworn in immediately, just as Truman was (as soon as they found him, in a secret ceremony). Not unusual for leaders to want to show smooth transitions. And of course, no one knew what had happened yet, and whether we were under attack, so the appearance of a non-disrupted leadership had to be kept up.

As for apocryphal stories about LBJ's foreknowledge, give me evidence of that, and I might reconsider.

His actions once he became president are not proof of anything except his ability to take over quickly--not something anyone doubted.
And there is plenty of evidence that JFK was planning to send more troops to Viet Nam. He told different people different things on the issue.

None of that is evidence. Those are just stories that can be combined to prove one thing, but could mean anything, and are not out of character with the daily relationships of the people involved.

[jobycom]

30. Another aside you'll never believe.

LBJ believed it was Oswald. I heard that straight from a personal friend of his, who was sitting next to him in the motorcade when the shot was fired. By the way, LBJ claims in the Warren Commission that he was bending over looking for a cufflink when the first shot was fired, but it isn't true. He was sitting upright, chatting.

LBJ told different people different things (and not just on the JFK assassination), and he has expressed misgivings about the Warren Report (as did this friend of mine), but he believed it was Oswald, and never directly contradicted that belief. I'm sure he was worried that the rumors would lead to war with Russia or Cuba, especially since his Pentagon was trying to make up reasons to invade Cuba at that time. He may have even believed Cuba or the Soviets put Oswald up to it, but he thought the shooter was Oswald.

[AP]

34. I don't think anyone believes the shooter wasn't Oswald.

Or, at least, that one of the shooters was Oswald. But that leaves a lot of questions unanswered -- namely, motivation and organization (as in, who organized it).

[jobycom]

40. A lot of people say it wasn't Oswald, or that there were other gunmen

He was it, or at least, he was the only one who fired shots and who hit the president.

As to whether others were involved, or put him up to it, I don't know. Yarborough would never answer whether he thought Oswald was put up to it by anyone else, and the fact that he wouldn't answer is a little interesting, since he loved to talk and voice his opinion.

I've always thought that if someone HAD put Oswald up to it, or paid him, that it would be a brilliant strategy for them to make people believe that it couldn't have been Oswald. Create all kinds of misleading stories about "Magic Bullets" and CIA plots, etc, but always point away from Oswald. If the doubters are all diverted from Oswald, they won't see who was behind Oswald.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Oh brother. It's getting real deep in here.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. I personally believe that there are quite a few unanswered questions...

...about Oswald and whether or not he was a shooter.

[rsdsharp]

45. So you're saying you talked to

Senator Ralph Yarborough about the assasination? He and Lady Bird were the only two people in the back seat of the limo with LBJ. Pardon me, but my BS meter is going off.

[jobycom]

46. I worked for him for a year

Almost wrote a book on him, but someone else beat me to it.

Pardon me for stuffing your BS meter back in your..., um, meter case.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. Anyone can say whatever they want on a message board...

...and my BS metter is going off big-time.

Yarborough was pretty far from being a personal friend of LBJ...they were political enemies within the Democratic Party.

I think you're full of crap to be real honest.

[jobycom]

69. That's a nice way out of an argument.

I was a researcher for him. I went to his donated archives at the LBJ School of Public Policy, on UT's campus, just beside the LBJ library. Below it is a basement full of donated papers, much of it unavailable to the public. I did some research for Yarborough on previous speeches and press releases concerning LBJ.

I also helped organize his records, and began trying to computerize them. In the process I found his copy of the Warren Report, complete with margin notes and stickum page markers. I saw in his own writing where he commented "Not true" next to the passage about LBJ's cufflinks.

I went to his house several times a week. He lived on Jarret Drive. He and his wife would sit on opposite sides of the room. He had two books on the stand next to his chair: Al Gore's "Earth in the Balance," and "The Creators." He worked with Gore's father, obviously, and when Gore and Clinton came through Austin on their bus trip after the convention, Ralph went with them through Texas. He talked Gore into stopping in Chandler, where Ralph and Opal grew up.

His hearing was terrible. I could shout something to him and he couldn't hear me sometimes. Opal would speak in a normal voice, and he could hear her across the room.

When my oldest daughter was born I took her to their house. They gave me a rug thing that had been a gift to him on one of his visits to an island off Mexico. He couldn't remember the name, but said it was a famous art form. I have no idea what it is, but it hangs over my fireplace as we speak. It's my daughter's, not mine.

Opal and Ralph loved my kid. They would stare at her and comment on how bright she was the whole time she was in the room. Ralph's own son died tragically about ten years before that, at the age of 50 something. He always said that his son was the smartest Yarborough who had ever lived.

Their house was always too hot. It was often a mess. He had Japanese art hanging on the walls that he had brought back from his time in Japan during WWII. The art was reported to be quite valuable, and once before I met him a Japanese documentary crew came to his house to film a documentary on his role in creating the Japanese post-war government (he was governor of a province, or something like that), and they were amazed at some masks he had, which were supposed to be state treasures.

Ralph had the amazing knack of making a person smile. No matter how tired or upset I was when I went to his house, I always left smiling.

I was at his 90th birthday party at the Governor's Mansion. I have a picture of him there, holding my daughter as he and Opal greeted visitors. It was also her birthday (both in June) and their 70th (I think) anniversary, (also in June). Ann Richards also was charmed by my daughter, who was two weeks old at the time, and made a typical quip about politicians loving babies, but mine being special.

I was at his funeral in the state cemetary. During the service an older gentleman I did not know asked me if I knew where Connally's tomb was, and I pointed up the hill. It's a big black one. He looked at it and muttered "It's not far enough away."

For a while I visited his tomb once every couple of months. I used to be inspired there when I felt tired, or overwhelmed by my graduate studies (in history). His tomb, my memories of him, would always make me smile, as he had done in person.

I'm sure he meant more to me than I to him.

As for his rivalry with LBJ, he told me of LBJ visiting his house as president, and how tall he was. He also told me one time, I think it was that time, that all the books got it wrong, that he and Lyndon "loved each other." "I loved him," he reiterated, in those exact words, despite their differences.

[THUNDER HANDS]

31. so....squirells killed Kennedy?

I'm confused.

[QC]

35. Those weren't just any squirrels--they were Trilateral Commission

squirrels who had received top secret Mossad training!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Blue_Tires]

48. don't forget

9-11 happened EXACTLY the way the bush admin. and Fox news tells us!!

[GWBrips]

50. YEAH!

Everybody knows that 911 was a U.S. / Israeli black-op. And OJ was innocent he's still looking for the real killer. Some times people cannot except the plain and simple true facts! Using the higher powers of reason, that all of us are supposed to have, regardless of ideology you guys have got to wake up from all this conspiracy crap!

[arcane1]

54. wake us up then

spell it out


we're waiting...

[Finch]

56. Its 90% certain that Oswald acted alone...

...unexciting but true.. there is just no evidence for a conspiracy really, and if their was it was probably that Castro sponsored Oswald in response to JFK and RFK's attempts on his own life...

[tinanator]

57. lol

yeah right.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Bwahahaha!!! What...

...utter crapola.

[number6]

68. 90 % based on what ...

try this, spread cheeks pull head out ...

[jobycom]

70. More than 90, if you go on evidence

For those prone to judge arguments by the volume of those making it, I guess it's less than 90.

[indigobusiness]

66. Oswald's Girlfriend, the medical student, convinced me he was innocent.

Barr MacLelland sp (his son is the press secretary now)*weird?*
has a video that will blow your mind.
Everybody made David Ferry out to be a nut, but he was a Genius.

[Zinfandel]

71. Your silly delusional and completely void of any capacity to see the

obvious...just what you've been told, keep watching the television and it'll give you ALL the info you need to believe everything is what it seems and what they tell you...now go to sleep it way past your bedtime little boy and dream of that perfect, world of no greed, no lies, no hate and no lust for power and privilege.

"Conspiracy is the unspeakable truth!"

[vincenzo]

73. You're trying to connect the dots! Verboten! Verboten!

Mudd,

You've certainly drawn out the paid posters. Actually it's very hard to know who is paid, who is just a sheeple (in my own lexicon, sheeple are those who are in possession of all the dots but for emotional and psychological reasons cannot connect them -- "the man in the daddy-pants loves us, he's big and strong, he'll protect us"), or who is sincerely mis/uninformed.

There is only one conspiracy, al-CIAda.